Bettany Hughes and Irving Finkel discuss 'The First Ghosts'

Historian and broadcaster Bettany Hughes joins Assyriologist Irving Finkel to discuss the concept of ghosts in the ancient world.
To mark Halloween and the publication of Finkel's latest book, The First Ghosts, they consider what was understood by ghosts, the spirits of the dead, especially in ancient Assyria and its region. They explore how a belief in ghosts emerges as a key feature of humanity from its beginning, evident through the earliest writing and archaeology.
Sign up to our newsletters for the latest news on our work, stories about the collection and upcoming events: emails.britishmuseum.org/k/Br...
We’re bringing inspiring stories of humanity’s shared histories and cultural achievements to millions of people online. Your support ensures that we can continue to make the collection and videos like this one available to as many people as possible. If you can, please donate today: ow.ly/1e1Y30qHebG or you can text BMLEARN to 70085. Texts cost £5 plus one standard rate message.
Image credit:
Clay cuneiform tablet showing prescriptions against demons and sickness, Babylon (Iraq), Late Babylonian. © 2021 The Trustees of the British Museum.

[@thesqueedler]

I could listen to Irving Finkel talk literally all day long. He's so delightful.

[@susanmcdonald9088]

Yikes, he rambles on in that hideous beard & doesn't say anything! Entertainer & bookseller! Get another cuneiform reader, please, G. Britain! There's a few others! It's time for this gatekeeper to go!

[@redreaper2752]

He’s like an even purer version of Dumbledore.

[@rosemaryjane7110]

We’ll the book is on audio! Lol

[@daisymoonmccool8769]

I was just thinking that!!

[@marystrope1345]

Delightful says it all. I absolutely love his voice, so calming.

[@markmiller6402]

I love the way Bettany Hughes asked a question, then just let the guy answer without interrupting. Great talk, brilliant.

[@mrsveronicadarby]

These two historians discussing what they love to do should be a weekly show. On site. Somewhere.

[@kidmohair8151]

may I suggest you search out In Our Time. it is a multi-disciplinary BBC radio panel show hosted by Melvyn Bragg, and quite literally covers the gamut, from soup to nuts. There are at least 2 channels here on the tube of you that upload it. It has been on the air since the late 1990s on a weekly basis, so there are a lot of them available. Bon appétit!

[@staninjapan07]

@@kidmohair8151 thanks for that

[@MymilanitalyBlogspot]

I adore Irving Finkel. More Irving Finkel videos, please. More delightful Bettany Hughes, too, please.

[@JerryEricsson]

We are taught, or at lest we used to be taught at the knee of our fathers, to listen to out elders. Now I am becoming one of those elders at the age of 70 years, and my grandchildren. when their phones are not attached to their arms, occasionally listen to some of my wisdom. I in turn am thrilled to listen to this fine Gentleman as he is indeed one of my elders.

[@kellydalstok8900]

I only listen to my elders, of which there are fewer every year, if they have something worthwhile to talk about. Most of them don’t, but Mr Finkel is one of the wonderful exceptions. Wisdom doesn’t come with age. My late, former mother in law lived for 97 years and didn’t possess a grain of wisdom her entire life.

[@NasrafRekcos]

Yes!!! Irving Finkel is back! The most interesting person alive. Just got your book on Audible fell asleep (it was really interesting but also really late, around 03:00) so I woke up as Dr Finkel talks about evil ghost. It makes a better (worse) impression when you wake up in the middle of the night, super dark, hearing about evil and annoying ghosts outside your house or super evil murder ghosts inside your house. Very convenient that Dr. Finkel and co-readers know how to chant anti super evil ghost magic chants. Dr. Finkel is a real super hero. Movies should be made with him solving clues in dungeons like a super smart Professor Henry Jones/ Indiana Jones/ Lara Croft. Then video games. Make it happen Brittish Mussum, Lucas Art, Steven Spielberg.

[@AlexanderSy]

As a nurse myself, working nights at a major trauma centre in America, where many have died in the most horrible ways, I've heard many stories by a few of our staff, of ghosts seen, especially during the night, in the corridors of our hospital. They have some interesting tales, of which I'm convinced they are themselves convinced. The universe is full of layers, and do we really know how these layers actually touch?...

[@victorpearson1418]

I recommend "Ghosts on the Underground " a BBC doc available on KZbin ..interviews with staff working on the London Underground railway . Gripping stuff !

[@iloveFreedom.]

I felt the presence of my friend when she died. I could smell her Sandlewood, and just Knew she was with me, to say goodbye. It was profoundly peaceful and loving. It lasted hours. A rainbow lorikeet flew past so close, it touched my cheek,( they never fly thAt close usually!) She was dying in the UK. I was in Australia. It is not an experience one needs to be convinced of. You might like the work of Delores Cannon. ) 🧡

[@helenamcginty4920]

In the hot days of summer I walk my dogs at dusk or dawn. I have often seen something out of the side of my eye in the half light which resembles a person, sometimes fleetingly or appearing to move. One tree stump in particular can still startle me as I wander along with my mind elsewhere. It changes shape I move along the path. As most `ghosts`are seen at night or in poor light i suspect that most of these are imagination. I have, though, had other experiences which are unexplained. From sensing that someone is in the room to almost hearing whispers. I mentioned one felt presence to my mother and a sister. A little chap in glasses said my mum, yes, and wearing a raincoat said my sister. We had each felt the same presence. 'Seen' as one sees someone in your memory. I had a 6 month old child at the time and we decided that this had been a nice but shy and lonely man who just liked to be with a family for a while. One day we wondered what he had been called. After trying several names (all beginning with A) we plumped for Arnold. he hung around for a while then was with us no more.

[@nicb8330]

Thank you for everything you do You chose that career for a reason Much respect

[@josephhager1933]

That is a very interesting comment I like the way you said "touching the different layers" thought provoking.

[@truediusbladius7149]

I cant wait for more Irving Finkel, such an amazing researcher and storyteller. Truly enlightening.

[@okaytoletgo]

Thank you Bettany Hughes and Irving Finkel, you two make a lovely conversation and cheer up an often grim topic. Thank you.

[@sawahtb]

I just started reading 'The First Ghosts' but I'm struck by how parallel it is to my observations of Ancestor Worship by my Mother in Law from China. Those who follow the proscribed rituals at least SEEM to strongly believe they needed to respect and remember former family, as if they are ghosts, and allow them to celebrate special occasions, especially New Year. Hell Bank Notes are burned to provide cash, and food is served. I asked "how do the ancestors eat" and the answer I got back was more or less, "it's important to serve the food, what or how is beside the point".

[@AaronWood]

Real, heavy, full of words. Just like Irving! :D Love his talks!

[@chrisdooley6468]

Love her Egypt specials. Irving is, well, just the best lol. Funny brilliant inspiring I could listen to him for hours

[@lawrence5117]

It's a treat to hear from Irving Finkel.

[@imperialgirl4858]

I love Dr. Finkel's lectures!

[@bouffon1]

I have been living in a remote part of Thailand for 10 years. I was driving a car in between ceremonies around a funeral. Apparently all 6 Thais in the car saw the ghost of the lady that had died, in the car. I didn't. They seemed surprised that I hadn't noticed anything, one even saying something like "See, now you have to believe in ghosts". The two kids present, one the daughter of the deceased, weren't worried or upset at all. It's a part of life here and after 10 years it's beginning to get me at it as well. My wife often sees tree spirits, etc, etc. No big deal.

[@DanielSousa-O]

Two super heroes ! More please!

[@onefeather2]

Iam going to buy his book, Dr Finkel is absolutely awesome.

[@guidor.4161]

Excellent and entertaining and hilarious. Never knew history and archeology could be this "real"

[@donphilp7511]

Excellent interview. Bettany Comes up with a punch line even Irving finkel jumps at. And Irving finkel, A man amongst men in many ways Who has spent his entire life In search of truth And has done the work required to do so, Explains things in such a way that an ordinary guy like myself can understand and think about. Absolutely marvelous.

[@catherinepoloynis]

That was so wonderful! Must have that book!

[@patbrain913]

Wonderful, so so enjoyable. Thank you so much

[@ryam4632]

I have added the book to my wishlist! Dr. Finkel's ideas sound very reasonable.

[@chesskid1635]

dr. IRVING FINKEL the legend.... we want to see him more

[@HomerSimpson-tv5yu]

As soon as I saw the title with BOTH Bettany and Irving, I immediately clicked. What a duo!

[@elvisischrist]

He’s such a pleasure to listen to!! I’m going to search out a copy of his latest book.

[@dermotmccorkell663]

Audible version read by him I think.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

They are a wonderful double act! Fascinating and I am going to get the book!!

[@macsarcule]

Bettany, please do a weekly interview show 🙂 This was great, and you’re a fantastic interviewer!

[@disideratum]

I would highly recommend Dr Finkel be interviewed by Dr Justin Sledge from the Esoterica KZbin channel as well. I know Dr Sledge is a huge fan and also has a wicked sense of humor. I'd love to see a conversation between those two.. especially after enjoying the conversation in this video so much!

[@AaronNellessen]

This man is fantastic. And she did a great interview. 👍

[@wesnixon4187]

I've been watching both of you guys since the days I rented VHS tapes from my local library in Southern California. Pure love.

[@pdunderhill]

Thank you both

[@endthedrugwartoday]

What an utter delight! We are blessed.

[@TIMTalksCooking]

I can't wait to read this book! There are still a few weeks before it's available here in the US, though...

[@bugsby4663]

I worked on London underground for years and those of us who were often on duty at night on your own had often seen things that we only admitted to each other when you were with an old experienced hand.

[@garethhutchings4045]

Rather late to the party I fear, but here goes. I worked on the construction of The Barbican Centre 50+ years ago. Work involved the excavation of part of the Cripplegate Church yard. Some months later, some blokes were working in a services tunnel between major blocks of apartments but close to the graveyard. They were up on step ladders installing conduit to the ceiling of the tunnel when the figure of a young girl came wandering along the tunnel asking for her mother, and she calmly walked through the wall of the tunnel. She was never seen again, and the poor blokes never went back to that tunnel again.

[@Imperiused]

Been looking forward to this book for some time! Good talk

[@rknowling]

Thankyou so much, staff of the British Museum, for making these and other talks available to us online. It is quite wonderful and amazing that- living in Australia- I can access this material from my own home. I am very grateful.

[@richard-or3ur]

You must post more often finkel.

[@galeocean4182]

thank you British Museum for a delightful, informative program. Please keep them coming - a fan from New England USA

[@JeraldMYates]

Absolutely fascinating. Great useful information and ThankYou.

[@toniomalley5661]

Go to an Irish wake and you’ll find lots of humour intermingled with sorrow I will for sure be buying the book and would love to have more of these conversation so interesting Bettany and Finkel always brilliant

[@goshdarnblog]

Wonderful interview!

[@wendyholmes1848]

yes, please... an Iannna evening.

[@jimpalmer2981]

I adore this man.

[@iloveFreedom.]

What a Great Man !!! Thankyou. Must get that book!!! 💚 ( you might also like some of the guests on 💫The Watchers, ....Also incredible Brilliant Minds of Today )

[@mrsveronicadarby]

I’m in love with Irving Finkel.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

Going back to the Halloween lesson. First I set the scene, because just like you, I know how easy it is to ridicule people who believe in ghosts, and that's not my purpose. My purpose is to help them understand, and connect their humanity to another humanity, from a different time. I switch off all the lights, draw the curtains. Then I take one phone and move it. Our faces change, are deformed. The corners of the room, the furniture become menacing and full of ever-moving shadows. I remind them of a world before electricity, street lights, when the fog (Halloween is northern/mostly western European) changes sounds and prevents you from seeing/recognising people and animals who might even brush past you. How would one NOT believe in ghosts? Ghosts are a logical explanation. Now, the problems of what exactly they are etc is not solved, but the existence of ghosts solves a problem. And I completely agree with your point about human arrogance.

[@surferdess494]

Him and David Fletcher fm bovington. gotta love museums... :-)

[@annepoitrineau5650]

When I explain Halloween to my students (which is not American, but European and sort of universal anyway. The lights thing which is done with pumpkins in the US, was done with other veg, and is still done with "Raben"--lovely pink light-- in Switzerland by the way), I remind them of the fact human beings hate death (might be painful+we lose people we love). But by the same token, we do not want them to come back because it means reliving the pain of separation. We give them presents (flowers, food offerings) to make sure they stay where they are. The reason why we have rituals is 1-so that we do not run around like headless chickens out of pain when somebody dies, but we follow a script, and that is re-assuring 2-We give the dear departed a token of our love etc, by doing right by them. It is a strange notion that they have a better afterlife if we follow the rituals, when it is their lived life that should determine this. Anyway, we do, and we can say mass for them etc. So trick or treat=give the dead presents so they do not come back as ghosts.

[@waqasusmans]

Just a comment on Halloween, it is not universal. It seems to be of European pagan origins, this concept (scaring away spirits is not present for the autumn season dates) is not there in South Asia, not in the Muslim parts, not in the Hindu and Sikh parts either.

[@wordnative]

And yes I said delicious before she did. So grateful to you both. Although in space and time we know she said it before I did. I am truly marveled .

[@fokkenhotz1]

this was such a treat I watched it again thx so Finkel and Brittany historians to treasure. God Blessings

[@kariannecrysler640]

I would suggest that some ghosts of past were message bringers. A warning of something to come from grandma long gone. Which could lead to calling for the dead to predict. As it is a person with exceptional perception can fairly often correctly predict a persons near future based on perception, blamed on the unknown. A smart perceptive person would use this skill for their own gain. But what about the person who’s grandma stopped by after years of being dead? I think fraud is present in all matters of spirituality and do not envy those that try finding the truth of it throughout history. Thank you for taking that challenge with enthusiasm and unbiased observation!😊

[@mrturquoise54]

You 2 are a delight to the ears ! Brilliant .

[@georgesparks7833]

Wonder -ful lecture 😮

[@dermotmccorkell663]

Dr finkel is a legend in his own beard. He takes a dry academic subject and makes it sing.

[@pollyanne234]

Love Betteny Hughes

[@TheBayru]

Now I wonder howmany ghosts must wander around in the British Museum and if the Museum has a procedure for dealing with them based on ancient tablets.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

A hotel I went to in Cornwall has a nurse haunting 3 of the rooms. It dates back to when the hotel was functioning as a hospital during WW2.

[@josephpetrino1741]

A hotel I went to in San Francisco was haunted as well. I wasn't aware of it when I checked in, but was very aware of it when I checked out. Never again.

[@SilverionX]

I can't believe I missed this! I'm almost mad at myself. Guess I have a new book to ask for when my birthday comes around!

[@staninjapan07]

Thank you both, and the British Museum, very much indeed. Either one of these fascinating people would have got and kept my attention, but both of them... what a delight. Now, if you'll excuse me, there is a ghost in my toilet...

[@HomerSimpson-tv5yu]

I have worked in every part of a hospital for several years, most predominantly in a very large Level 1 trauma ER. And I can honestly say I’ve never had even the slightest encounter with any supernatural entirety. I haven’t even heard any stories from people either. And I even worked through the Covid pandemic in which hundreds died in my hospital and there are no signs of the supernatural.

[@shellyharry8189]

when my cat BillBill passed away I buried him with my orange sweater, which he had loved. I wanted him to have something of me with him so he wouldn't be afraid. It sounds silly or even superstitious, but it gave me a sense of comfort

[@philipstevenson5166]

Very interesting. (Will buy book!) But I use RIP without believing in spirits wandering around - without even thinking about it. We have a lot of conservatism of habits that don't imply belief.

[@DonovanWert]

Awesome talk!! Thanks 🙏Blessed be!!

[@davidchurch3472]

Irving is just such a wonderfully engaging speaker - I am becoming a fan of the Museum and the cuneiform cultures

[@elisabethostnas2271]

I really enjoyed the webinar! But as many others, I wonder what the play was, and if it is possible to watch? When a group japanese artists set up Inanna.

[@sharonjanethague7181]

These two are a winning combination. Wonderful interview!

[@ckotty]

Great conversation, many thanks👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 👍🏽😘

[@thebatt6183]

Fascinating

[@laidman2007]

Thank you!

[@henrimacaulay835]

So interesting

[@aprylvanryn5898]

Fantastic interview. I'm so glad I clicked

[@fokkenhotz1]

great show lived every last min ❤️

[@louis4017]

amazing the mans a wizard ,merlin's disciple

[@aprylvanryn5898]

I was thinking this whole time that he is a ringer for merlin from Disney's sword in the stone

[@randystone4903]

Irving is always great in interpreting how ancient Man looked at life. Now I know it's ghosts making my ears itch ;-)

[@waynemyers2469]

Irving comes from a time when great intellects could still be human.

[@ericashmusic8889]

Irving should go down into the London Underground-to Specific 'Known places' where those folk who are open or more of an open or more "let's see" state of mind have witnessed & experienced scary & strange things.

[@sacredcoldplasma6276]

Outstanding

[@Northcountry1926]

Brillant ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@helenamcginty4920]

Re the discussion of necromancy is there any link back to pre literate societies which seem to have kept at least bits of bodies as well as wrapped and semi mumified bodies? Am thinking of barrows which were used over 1 or 2 hundred years but to inter parts of defleshed skeletons, e.g. the long bones.

[@fionaottley4976]

Irving is a gem.

[@YinYinBaker]

Wonderful video. Is that Japanese performance about Inannas decent somewhere online?

[@emanovska]

Finkel is a pure treasure.

[@manzano0627]

Not every human society (modern or ancient) buried its dead, so the act of burial has nothing to do with the belief in ghosts. But it would be fascinating to compare ghost stories and beliefs from all around the world. As usual, a very entertaining and informative talk with Irving Finkel.

[@Ghostshadows306]

I would argue that death itself has nothing to do with Ghosts. The belief in them, yes, but the reality of them based on the evidence (if they indeed are part of our physical reality) no, nothing to do with death. In my opinion it’s an example of human beings not looking at the big picture and making judgments they don’t have sufficient evidence to make. Which this gentleman is doing as most all human beings throughout history have and continue to do. In this case they do more harm to expanding our understanding than they do to further it which when combined with the scientific community’s oppressive and unscientific ways, has led to our current situation. Which is living in a fantasy world on both sides of the issue instead of approaching it with a goal of having a better understanding that could lead to solving the mystery. Maybe we are simply not capable of solving it or gaining any more insight than we already have. Maybe as a species we are not capable of the thought that the world we live in is being manipulated in some way by other intelligent entities that are as real as we are by definition. But like many human endeavors that leave us divided, this one has never been investigated properly or been given the attention it deserves in research.

[@michaelkottler]

Sure, not every human society (ancient or contemporary) buries their dead. But a vast majority of them did/do attend to their dead in other ways. Homo sapiens sapiens has from the beginning engaged in ritual re: their dead, and again, the vast majority assume(d) a spirit or soul which lives on after physical death, hence the ghost idea.

[@mickhurley7305]

In Lascaux, there is a farmer who did his own excavation (not the famous cave drawings) and he discovered neanderthals buried with 'trinkets' , I think that would pre-dates theses "First Ghosts".

[@1101millie97]

Our close cousins the Neanderthals and Denisovans (or Eastern Neanderthals) arguably also had similar beliefs as we did, judging by how they laid down their deceased loved ones.

[@yomammascan]

Gandalf Is an historian, too!

[@ktwang986]

At 57:28 Prof. Finkel mentions a stunning Japanese show in London of the Descent of Inanna, can anyone identify it? Or, better, show us a video? Thanks.

[@boxfox2945]

Sounds like a female, daunta's inferno

[@paternoster4006]

Shame I'm allowed to give just one like.

[@che4568]

Mr Finkles screen makes him look like an animated old masterpiece 🙌

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

Can Irving have his own BM channel please?

[@thekaxmax]

The Bowler in the movie Mystery Men has her powers based around and deriving from a transparent bowling ball with her grandfather's skull in it--she's ghost-powered.

[@michaelkottler]

And here I thought no one but I recalled Janene Garofalo's character in Mystery Men lol. Nice.

[@AA-ke5cu]

39:00 everybody should buy this book at least 3 copies; 😂 lol. I agree.

[@yarrowwitch]

If the ancients thought that the Dead transcended Time/Space, questions of our Future could be answerable, surely?

[@ancient_Iraqi_Mesopotamian]

❤️❤️❤️🌹

[@adamdarmstaedter1256]

B E T T A N Y 😍😍😍😍

[@boxfox2945]

To bad I didn't find this during Halloween.🎃

[@rogerpartner2648]

👍👍

[@templetetradactyl5862]

Great video. Why do I feel like I'm watching a Hogwarts lecture? Off to summon more ghosts.

[@tumblebugspace]

I think Immanuel Velikovsky’s thesis makes the best sense. Gods and goddesses were *visible* to the ancients. Academics like these two fine scholars just have a mental block about the possibility of discarnate consciousnesses. I’m middle aged, and have remained agnostic until now. I cannot believe that the institutions of modern technological civilization know as much as they think they know. It’s been really good at filling the oceans with plastic, but quality of life has surely declined for the majority. Such a disconnected way to exist. Those who derive their social status from being “authorities” on various subjects don’t want any paradigm shift to happen. Authoritarian lockdown on thought and speech is becoming a worldwide phenomenon. The *universal* belief in an “afterlife” could actually be reflective of reality, but materialistic “science” and academia would not want such an intrusion into their tidy explanations of physical reality. The materialistic chemical paradigm for human health supplies quite a bit of socioeconomic power to those who practice in the industry. Why would they want to give up power like that willingly? They wouldn’t, of course. Time for a new cosmological model!

[@kabuti2839]

Simple, you can find out 4 yourself, 1. Change your attitude so that you live as if you will 'die' at ANY moment, every moment. 2. pay attention to your dreams & understand what they show