Better Framing in NINA with the Manual Rotator

[@Astrogator1]

Thanks, I have been looking to find an easy way to do rotations without a rotator. Yours is the best explanation I have seen yet. I would repeat any of the positive comments from other viewers!!

[@PatriotAstro]

Glad it helped!

[@dipugeo]

Man ,we are all impressed. You mange to compress a few years of wisdom in astrophotography into youtube videos that, I could only pray for, a few/several years ago. I don't know know what you do in your day job, but a humble thank you for your dedication and willingness to post explanatory videos with respect to NINA. Thank you, for lead developers of NINA as well. I can't quiet comprehend how all of you guys manage this much on your free time!keep up the good work.

[@PatriotAstro]

That is exactly why I am doing it. :) I would hate to think others were fighting through something I could more easily help them get through.

[@expatca4444]

Man keep it going with your videos, best instructional videos I've seen overal, short and straight to the point. Thanks !

[@syeduddinacmacgma9734]

You are non repeating..to the point and precise...absolutely amazing work.

[@PatriotAstro]

I certainly try! :) Glad you like the video and format.

[@robvandenwijngaart1970]

Hi chad, This was end is a great video. I was just looking for this. Didn't know this was posible so I always just doing some guess work to get it right. Now knowing this with you explanation life will be easier in the dark, cold and clear skies. THANKS!

[@PatriotAstro]

YES! Perfect! That is my goal. Helping other ENJOY the hobby more, and FIGHT the hobby less. :)

[@theclillo]

I wish I would’ve watch this video two days ago, Just came back from three days of camping and wasted so much framing and rotating!!! thanks again for a super great informative video.

[@PatriotAstro]

Sorry to hear that. I can't tell you the number of things I learned 2 days too late.... Aargh! :)

[@jag32266]

Most appreciative as I have a manual rotator for mosaics and just, WOW!

[@PatriotAstro]

Enjoy! So much power in this product.

[@studywithme8055]

@@PatriotAstro First of all great video's. Can't we just loosen the holding screws and then turn (and then fasten again), instead of using a manual rotator (I am using normal guiding)?

[@BrentMantooth]

You are becoming the go to NINA resource. Great job

[@PatriotAstro]

I know what it is like to image at 3am and desperately need an answer… I hope this is helping. :)

[@stevenmiller5452]

Keep up the good work, your presentations are always very clear and thorough.

[@PatriotAstro]

thanks! sorry for the delayed response!!!

[@stevenmiller5452]

@@PatriotAstro actually I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind. Nina advanced sequencer has been working wonderfully for me until last week. Now when I frame and slew to an object, it is half off the frame and I’ve checked all my camera settings the pixel dimensions everything in it all seems good and I can’t figure out what it is. Is there some common error that’s easy to overlook that I may have triggered? My second one has a do with a manual rotator. It’s not doing anything anymore, no matter how different my framing is from my rotation it just hits the manual rotation trigger (slew, center and rotate command), does a plate solve, reslews (still half off the framing I defined), and then moves onto the next command if everything‘s OK. My rotation tolerance was 5° and it was off by 40° Or so. But NINA didn’t care. The command is enabled it has no warning notice on it and my manual rotator is installed. I’m imaging just half off the frame and improperly rotated. And one more clue: Last night for the first time -n my NINA sequence, the “center after drift” command doesn't work and it displays “NaNpx” in the number of pixels of tolerance that is allowed, I assume because it doesn’t know the pixel dimensions (i.e. what camera or scope is connected). And if my unguided scope drifts and it plate solves with the "center and drift" it still says off by 0 pixels, even though it's clearly drifted. It's as whatever triggered "NaNpx" just allows it to platesolves, but does nothing with it. But once again, I look in all my HW config and the camera is attached and the parameters are correct, the telescope focal length is correct in the Framing section (although it's curious that when the "telescope" is connected in HW, that is really just the mount, the focal length is actually under the camera parameters in the framing section).

[@stevenmiller5452]

Just to reinforce that I’ve tried to chase this down: I’ve posted to the CN forums and NINA Facebooks forum, got many suggestions for possible causes and checked/tested for all of the over two nights: no fix. (Ex: bin1 vs bin2 mismatch in capture vs platesolve, wrong telescope focal length, not resetting sequence, several places camera setting could be wrong or mismatched, ensure commands are enabled, incorrect location config, latest NINA version, reboot computer, etc…)

[@PatriotAstro]

@@stevenmiller5452 Can you tell me which version of NINA you are running? There was a NaNpx bug but that has been resolved. I wonder if much of this stems from that?

[@stevenmiller5452]

It just so happens NINA said there was an update available. I downloaded and tested it: It worked, all problems solved. It must have been a bug.

[@rocketfast09]

Manual rotator is awesome! I used it for the first time last weekend and it worked great! Thanks for the tip.

[@PatriotAstro]

Great! Glad to hear we are all putting all of this cool stuff into practice!

[@louisrosner7902]

Another great video. So many features in NINA . Rotation and framing is so important. I had just been doing it manually but with out the manual rotator feature in NINA. This is so much better.I may have to rethink my purchase of the ASI air plus.

[@PatriotAstro]

I absolutely love the concept of the Air+ I just dont think i could live with it. It is PERFECT for some people that need a turnkey functional solution that just works. I need flexibility, NINA, ability to run Nightly and Dev builds with new features, ... flexibility in general. Glad the videos helped you out!

[@jameslyons3306]

Perfect! Just what I needed..

[@PatriotAstro]

Great! Glad it could help!

[@brett5313]

thanks for putting this together, very informative and to the point.

[@PatriotAstro]

No Problem!

[@Xanthus723]

This was an incredibly helpful piece of NINA knowledge thank you so much for covering this.

[@PatriotAstro]

So happy to assist!

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

Thanks for the video , I am new to NINA coming from SGP and was so lost . I am starting to get to know NINA a little bit , was out the other night with it and tried to do the rotation , I chose manual and when it came time it did nothing , not telling me where to turn. I did not know about that drop down so now cant wait to try.... Next for me is to learn how to image and put those in there own directory

[@PatriotAstro]

Watch my profile setup video. There is a part about the imaging path that may help. Also, in the Advance Sequencer, make sure you use "Slew, Center, and Rotate" instruction if you need the rotator involved.

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

Thanks , I never had name of images selected so all images where going in the same place. When I first started NINA all I did was stair at it not knowing what to do , I am getting thee

[@PatriotAstro]

@@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer Reach out any time. :) Like I tell my kids and co-workers/employees - "Never fail alone".

[@spookysandwich1355]

brilliant vid bud , im still new to nina and upto now i know how to connect mount HEQ5 - camera (nikon dslr Z6 and 600mm sigma lens, to nina and do a 3 point polar align and platesolve , and learnt to set the sequence for "many exposures" and "auto meridian flip" which i find really fascinating to watch my question is regarding the rotation can the same method you showcase here be used with my camera and 600mm lens ? my lens does have a ring collar so manual rotation is no problem also i dont have a guide scope at the mo im currently saving up for that so im generally shooting nice pin sharp stars at 90 second expos many thanks :)

[@okeania]

Excellent video, exactly what I was looking for some weeks.

[@PatriotAstro]

Perfect!

[@johnjames378]

Awesome, I just picked up a manual rotator, this is perfect, thank you!!

[@PatriotAstro]

Great! Let me know how it works out!

[@AdAstra-ch6xl]

Well done! Great and detailled Video - thx a lot!

[@PatriotAstro]

Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Spaced_Out_Bill]

This is awesome! Thank you so much.

[@PatriotAstro]

So much to learn and only so many hours in the day. :)

[@salomon1639]

once again great video. Your explanation for use with manual rotator is wonderful. I have the Falcon rotator and it works perfect with NINA. The tolerance for accuracy with rotator is 0.1. Thanks for all the info.

[@PatriotAstro]

That's great to know. I've looked at that rotator a couple times in the past.

[@OlliesSpace]

Great tips in here and nice to see a walkthrough of how this works. I think I will move to the nightly build, I'm missing out on too many super cool features. Cheers 👍

[@PatriotAstro]

Yes, Yes, Yes! Totally worth the move! Let me know if you have questions.

[@TheAlros100]

Another great Video !!

[@PatriotAstro]

I appreciate that

[@brianpreston4043]

Awesome videos and professionally done... you have helped me solve alot of my issues :)

[@PatriotAstro]

Glad you like them!

[@MarvelousLXVII]

I have the same telescope (SharpStar 61) and wish it had degree markings on the rotator. Nice video thanks!

[@PatriotAstro]

I know what you mean. Hmm... maybe I should put some on there???

[@JethroXP]

Great content! I'm still using the stable version of NINA and seeing lots of videos lately highlighting the changes in the Nightly builds. I'm starting to get concerned that they are changing so much that the next stable release will involve a significant learning curve.

[@PatriotAstro]

The basic sequencer is still available in 1.11 but the benefits to getting into the Advanced Sequencer are well worth the move. Definitely take some time to watch my NINA videos around the sequencer and download my templates. It will help you get started. Ask any questions you may have. Unless you are shooting 2 rigs simultaneously and using synchronized dithering, I would move to the nightly version now. It has been stable for me for quite some time. This will let you start using features as you are comfortable but stick with the basic sequencer until ready. 1.11 is definitely a bigger change than most because of the sequencer rewrite.

[@bill_astro_music]

Funnily enough, I have found 1.11 more stable than the 'stable' version. There are too many goodies in 1.11 to not make the move.

[@redabdab]

Thanks Chad. At 6:38 you say you’re only rotating the imaging camera. But wouldn’t that risk having the prism move into the image area (since you’re not moving the OAG with it)?

[@PatriotAstro]

100% yes. It’s not ideal, so an option would be to also manually move the guide camera along with the primary camera BUT you would almost certainly need to recalibrate PHD2 for guiding to work afterwards. That is a great point!

[@redabdab]

@@PatriotAstro Thanks. I have not yet got OAG set up, so I just wanted to check my understanding. :-)

[@Sirge57]

Thanks a lot for making this video. It answered a nagging question I had.

[@PatriotAstro]

Glad to help!!

[@stephen2615]

I have a QHY 16200A with a HUGE filterwheel built into it. I never rotate it as it totally screws up everything with balance. I did buy some small newer counterweights to try to help with this balance problem but with months of cloudy nights, it never got tested.

[@f100strato2]

Chad, another great video. Question: I assume it would be best to have a manual rotator between the camera and the OAG so you don't rotate your guiding. Is this a significant problem, it looked like you rotated everything.

[@PatriotAstro]

I can rotate the adapter on the back of my guider such that the guide camera stays in place. But you are right, that would be an issue and require recalibration of PHD2/

[@jeffratino5456]

Hi Chad, I think you talked about using a previous image taken in a previous imaging session to determine rotation. But can't remember which video it was in. Do you recall?

[@SIGP229TPOC]

Good stuff. Thanks for another great tip! Gotta say, I'm loving NINA 1.11. Might have to fully move away from SGP :)

[@PatriotAstro]

Different software for different purposes is ok. Whatever gets you your best outcomes with your sanity still intact is the winner. ;)

[@ColeRees]

First! haha also thank you, more great info. love it!

[@PatriotAstro]

LOL - Winner Winner!

[@robertvanvugt3371]

Hi Chad, I am new to NINA coming from APT and can't find anything on how to do a manual focus update say 60min. into a sequence? I get how to initially select a star and focus then frame up a target and start a sequence but once a sequence is running how to pause it slew to focus star and then slew back to target set in framing assistant? Is this even possible? I do not yet have an auto focuser so have to do this the hard way for now. If this can be done a video would be great...

[@PatriotAstro]

OK, so try to follow along with this logic. :) You can open the Advanced Sequencer and build this sample sequence to get a feel for how we can do this (without even connecting any equipment). Go to the Advanced Sequencer and drag over an empty 'Deep Sky Object Sequence' from instructions. This is where your target would be, such as M51 as an example. On that DSO container, put a looping condition of 'Loop Until Time' and select 'Astronomical Dawn'. In the Instructions section of the DSO container, add 3 items in this order, from top to bottom. 1st, add a 'Sequential Instruction Set'. Add a looping condition to the Sequential Instruction Set of the type 'Loop For Time Span' and set it to '5 seconds' (just for the demonstration, in your real example it would be 60 minutes). In the instructions section of the Sequential Instruction Set add an 'Annotation' instruction that just says "NINA would be imaging in here". OK, now minimize the Sequential Instruction Set and place a 'Message Box' instruction below that set... it needs to be below the Sequential Instruction Set but still inside the DSO Container. Add a message of, "It is time to check the focus again." Lastly, below the Message Box, and still inside the DSO container, add a 'Wait For Time Span' utility instruction with a delay of '10 seconds'. So, what does this all do? When you start this sequence, (you can try it now) it will start up and determine it needs to run/loop your DSO object all night until Astronomical Dawn. Great! Inside the DSO container, as a first instruction, it finds a Sequential Instruction set that is built to run/loop its included instructions for 5 seconds (which in my demo here is just an annotation that doesn't do anything, but in the real world, this would be where your imaging instructions go. Additionally, this loop would be 60 minutes in your example, but much shorter for the demo). When the 5 second loop expires, it moves on to the next instruction which is a Message Box that pops up and pauses the entire sequence until you click OK. This is how the system will stop and wait for you to physically intervene. After clicking OK, the system will start a 10 second Wait For Time Span instruction. But, why do I need this? Well, the message box will pause your sequence, but it also locks up the NINA interface temporarily until OK is pressed, and once pressed, it moves on very quickly. So, after you press OK, this 10 second wait is just here to give you enough time to click the Stop button on the sequencer (which can be done directly on the imaging page, so you really may only need 2-5 seconds actually). Once it is stopped, you can perform focus or whatever you need to do, then when ready again, click the play button and the interrupted 10s Wait for Time instruction will restart. Once the full 10s expires, since it is the last instruction in the DSO object, it will loop back up to the Sequential instruction set where it will happily keep looping all night long until Astronomical Dawn. This all sounds WAY more confusing than it is once you drop it in a sequence. If still having issues, send me an email. :) Just build it like I mention and test it yourself. Hope this helps!

[@jimwaters304]

Another great NINA video. Thank you. I have been trying to figure out the best way to do this. Question - do you ever sleep? :)

[@PatriotAstro]

I sleep on Wednesdays, but only if cloudy. :) Just kidding. No, I don't sleep. Honestly, I have so many video ideas in process right now and I hate to let them sit around half completed.

[@johnshu5331]

Aloha Chad, Great video!! I was using a digital angle gauge (before) to position the camera. This will definitely help! Had a quick question about meridian flips. Sometimes I like to manually flip the mount early, but when I go to plate solve and re-center, NINA will slew the mount back to where it was before. So, I turned the plate solve re-center option off (with just sync enabled), but I don't know if that is helping any. Do you know of a trick to accomplish a plate solve (with re-centering capabilities) after manually flipping the mount early?? Thanks!!

[@Bogfra1]

Is all well and good but have applied this once the intention of either N.I.N.A or SGP that everything goes automatically and if everything goes well you can start your night's sleep; problem that the meridian flip is also the rotation checked again and since I was not present all the frames after the flip where bad.

[@PatriotAstro]

Correct. The manual rotator needs a babysitter from time to time. One option in the Advanced Sequencer is to image using the ‘Loop until time’ looping condition with the time definition set to ‘meridian’. This will stop your imaging at the flip time and allow you to move on to a new non rotated target while you sleep. ;) The only other option to rotate while sleeping is use of an electronic rotator, which for me, is too expensive and has a backspace requirement footprint I cannot meet.

[@Bogfra1]

@@PatriotAstro Thanks for the comment; have thought about it you can do this so in the framing assistant and then record an image and see if it is to your liking and then do not set it in the actual sequence so just slew and center set in the sequencer the camera rotation is already set anyway if a meridian flip takes place there is only again slew and centering only the image is turned over and the stack program does the rest. Greetings from Belgium

[@PatriotAstro]

@@Bogfra1 Right. 180 degree meridian flip will be fixed during alignment. You can always also fix a lot of this in processing: stacking, rotating, and cropping can do some similar things. This of course would come with loss of data as a result of cropping to correct rotational issues. Where this really gets interesting is when you 1. Don't want to lose any sensor space to cropping (or at least limit it), 2. Multi-night imaging with consistent framing, and/or 3. Limiting excessive loss of overlapping space required for mosaics. Great point!

[@paule1984]

Hi Chad. Could you just confirm that the OAG is the Celestron OAG, as I have that for my Edge 8"HD, and just recently realised that it incorporates a "manual rotator"! Regards Paul E

[@siegfriednoet]

Again a very informative video Chad, thank you for the ongoing info about Nina, very appreciated ! Is it also possible to use a image that has been made by myself, lets say the year before, and want to add data with the same rotation ?

[@PatriotAstro]

Yes. This is NINA, so... of course you can! :) Open the Framing Assistant and change the Image Source to "File". Open an exposure from the previous session. It will ask about using the embedded coordinates to speed the platesolve of this file, say yes. It will come up on screen, solved and ready to go. Then just send it to a sequence from here. I plan on doing a video on this soon, but it looks like clouds for a bit... :(

[@siegfriednoet]

@@PatriotAstro Thank you Chad, great info again !

[@siegfriednoet]

@@PatriotAstro So this would work with an image that I have made last year using APT then ?

[@PatriotAstro]

@@siegfriednoet It should, yep.

[@Akira13013]

Thanks. But why the angle is not the same in framing assistant and in your solving . We can see 90 degree but when you turn your rotator Nina tell you 230 degree

[@PatriotAstro]

I may be way off here in responding to your question, but to keep the discussion going in an attempt to find your answer, let me try to make some assumptions about what you are seeing. The first time I put the red lines on-screen was in the framing assistant, this is how NINA/ASTAP see the object and its rotation. The second time I put the red lines on-screen, was an actual image from my camera sensor. This image was rotated about 90 degrees from the framing assistant. Ok, so this is the first point of understanding, this is where the 270.69 degrees Current Position comes from. I started 90 degrees off from the expected angle/position in the counterclockwise direction and 360-90=270. Then I attached the Manual Rotator and plate solved, the system said I need to move from my current position of 270.69 to 230 degrees (based on the framing I choose). I therefor had to rotate from my current position another 40 degrees counterclockwise to match the desired framing. Does this help with the 90 degrees you mention came from, or was that elsewhere in the video?

[@Akira13013]

@@PatriotAstro in fact what we see in the video is that you choose the 90 degree angle in the framing assistant and that astap asks you to turn the camera to reach 230 degrees. it looks like the angle of rotation in nina determined in the framing assistant does not correspond to the same angle as astap roughly when nina says 90 degrees, astap says 230 degrees

[@Akira13013]

@@PatriotAstro because i think your position should be 90 or 270 . Maybe i disunderstand something but why 230?

[@PatriotAstro]

​@@Akira13013 I think you are just stuck 1 step before the 230 becomes important. NINA/ASTAP knows the orientation of the target we are looking at. Before rotating anything at all, you can platesolve an image which will tell you the actual current orientation of your camera sensor. In this case it was determined that my camera was already rotated to 270 degrees before I did anything at all. Then, NINA/ASTAP looked at the rotated framing of the target I requested. It found that the way I changed the desired framing of the target I wanted to image was rotated to 230 degrees based on its database and my rotated frame. Next, it compared my current camera position of 270 to the desired framing of 230. This is why it asked me to rotate 40 degrees (270-230=40). It knows that if I rotated 40 degrees, any images I took would match the framing I set in the interface.

[@Akira13013]

@@PatriotAstro ok . It was confused to me . I switch from sgp to Nina after watching your video and i’m very happy by advanced sequencer. But i use manuel rotator and sometimes Nina want me to change rotation while i didn’t touch anything. I’m a few lost.

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

Hey Chad , I am going to bang a few questions off you if you dont mind. I am learning NINA and I am getting it sort of.. Love how fast it can plate solve but here is my bug-a-boo I cant seem to solve. When I want to go from one object to another when it takes first image of the object I want the first image the stars are smeared and wont solve so I stop it and start it again from where it is and takes first image and everything is good finds where it is moves and bang right where it should be. It seems to happen only on the first slew. I have the scope settling for 15 seconds before it takes image.. I cant seem to stop it , so if I am not at the scope and not watching it will never complete unless I stop and start again . Any thoughts ???

[@PatriotAstro]

What equipment? OAG? I had a similar issue and can't recall what it was... Maybe guiding? It could have been settle time. Hmm. Does this happen for the first image of the night as well?

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

@@PatriotAstro I am using a 10in LX200 f6.3 meade , everything works great except for when you slew to a new image and it takes the first image to plate solve I get star streaks so I stop it start from where it is and it solves then moves solves and goes one more time and dead center . it only happens whe slewing to a new image , not all the time but most of the time

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

out at the scope now cold but going good

[@deeber35]

Can this be done with a DSLR? Not sure how rotation is possible.

[@tvanpeer]

Depends on the T-ring you are using. And some telescopes, like my ZS73 allow for rotating too.

[@abulka]

Yes, get e.g. a Sky-Watcher EvoFrame Rotational Adapter.

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

Are you not making videos anymore ????

[@PatriotAstro]

I really 'want' to make videos, but family stuff has been very busy. My daughter Brielle is preparing to return to Arkasas for more treatment for CRPS and 4 of my kids are in college this year... If I can find time, I will defintely get back to it. :)

[@Steve_The_Ignorant_Astronomer]

@@PatriotAstro Wow 4 kids in collage dont know how you do that.. what is crps ??? Well hope you make it back one day , good luck with all

[@BrentMantooth]

My manual rotator is broken/dead on arrival. It won't get out of bed at 3 am to change targets. Want a refund. 1 out of 5 stars (in frame, because rotator won't fix it)

[@PatriotAstro]

I know the feeling. :)

[@abulka]

Wish motorised rotators weren’t so expensive! 😢