Bevel up versus bevel down planes - scrutinising bevel and clearance angles - Part 2

[@terryc47]

All I can say is fantastic. Thank you for putting these two very instructive video together. The wear on a blade as it gets dull, and the affect this has on ones work, and whats actually happening, has certainly advanced my knowledge and I now have a better understanding in the use of woodworking tools. Once again thank you.

[@hntgordonco.2514]

Hi Terry Glad it has helped you with your woodwork. I certainly wish I had learnt about this in the early days of woodworking. Regards Terry

[@d408naples]

Very informative and helpful. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

[@hntgordonco.2514]

Hi Don Thanks for the feedback. Your lap sharp system is still serving us well, wouldn't be with out it today. Regards Terry

[@WoodByWright]

Great talk! thanks for putting that together!

[@hntgordonco.2514]

Thanks, Regards Terry

[@snowwalker9999]

Great vid. I have never felt the need for a bevel-up plane and three extra blades ground at different angles or toothing blade to mill my stock. One bevel down plane fine-tuned sharp with correct adjustment shaves any type of wood with ease even the end grain leaving a smooth surface behind. I just prefer the feel and feedback I get when I shave with a sharp bevel down. Saving up for some of HNT G planes :)

[@leeclapp1859]

Great video. I bought a veritas low angle smoother and have a bugger of a time planing tallow wood and red gum. Always tearing out. I was watching agwoodcreations on Instagram the other day and he mentioned he was having trouble planing some timber until he switched over to your smoother and had no problem after that. It got me searching KZbin for more info on your planes. I always thought they were more for show than hard work. It appears I was wrong and will look at buying a couple of them soon.

[@hntgordonco.2514]

Hi Lee, glad you like the video and thanks for info about planning some aussie hardwoods. I'm sure our planes will help you out as they are optimised for these woods. Happy woodworking. Regards Terry

[@trevorgdn]

Lee, what angle did you grind the bevel to? The factory bevel of 25 degrees is too low for planing face grain on hardwoods. Your low angle smoother will be fine for smoothing if you use a blade with a 35+ degrees bevel.

[@leeclapp1859]

+trevorgdn its just the factory bevel, I haven't changed it. Now that I know the wooden planes work so well, I will slowly switch over to them. My veritas plane was all nice and shiny when I go it. Now it looks like an antique, with all the rust on it. Wooden planes don't rust I like that. What use is the factory bevel best used for?

[@trevorgdn]

Lee, if you go to this link: www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=45864&cat=1,41182,52515 there are very good instructions for the bevel up planes (in the table that has prices). The factory bevel is excellent for end-grain due to the effective cutting angle of 37degrees. Any tool that is made of iron or steel will rust, it is your fault that it is no longer shiny, not a flaw of the plane. After use you should give it a quick rub with a machine oil or one of those tool waxes. To remove the rust you have, you can rub it with rust buster and then clean it off, or use very fine (800+) "wet and dry" with oil. Despite what Terry has said in these videos, bevel-up planes perform just as well as the conventional bevel-down, IF they are set up properly. An advantage of the bevel-up planes is it's much easier to change the blade when you are in the middle of a job. The increased wear-bevel that bevel-ups supposedly suffer is is really not that big a concern in use. If you only every worked the hardest and most abrasive of timbers then you might care about it.

[@leeclapp1859]

+trevorgdn thanks mate, I know it's not a flaw of the plane, it's just that I lived in the tropics for 4 years and didn't use it that much. I'm slowly cleaning all my tools again. I mostly used it as a shooting plane and it was awesome for that. I'll probably just keep it for that purpose. And get a HNT smoother for when I'm working Aussie hardwoods.

[@philclennell]

Fascinating stuff but Terry may have forgotten that the old mitre planes which are centuries old, were of the BU type. And many enthusiasts attest to the fact that they work better than BD planes. Perhaps the bed angle of 20 to 25 degrees keeps the wear bevel at bay somewhat longer. I personally have tried the LN no9 mitre plane as a smoother and it works superbly - however it's uncomfortable to use due to the lack of a proper handle. Quite why LN and Veritas do not use 20 degrees for their BU planes remains a mystery.

[@hntgordonco.2514]

Hi Philly, Please be aware I have nothing against BU planes , we have used this concept in our planes to make a BD smoother into a BU cabinet scraper since we started making planes in 1995. The issue I am trying to make woodworkers aware of is the problems associated with using LA BU planes that have a 12 degree bed (ie. 12 degrees of clearance) for smoothing flat surfaces. The less clearance angle you have the sooner your plane will not want to cut the long grain of wood. No clearance = no cut, unless of course you want to use brute force, which many people try to do which creates many other issues with the quality of surface finish and increasing the chance of tear out. The exception to this is cutting soft wood end grain, which is what these LA BU planes were designed to do, and they are undoubtedly the best design for planing soft wood end grain. This is because soft wood end grain (under a micro scope) is not flat - it has troughs and peaks so the loss of clearance or the wear bevel is not continually riding on the surface of the wood like in the case of planning long grain. Consequently you can keep planning softwood end grain until the blade is actually blunt. In contrast to planing long grain, once your wear bevel is large enough to lose clearance, you will assess that the blade is blunt, where as in fact the blade is still very much sharp enough to cut wood , but the LA BU design is stopping it from cutting due to loss of clearance. As far as the bevel angle goes, a woodworker in the US - Steve Elliot, proved beyond doubt that a 31 degree bevel is the optimum angle to get maximum life out of your blade (before re sharpening) for planning cherry. If you take a look at his site he proves this beyond doubt. For other types of wood that angle may vary slightly one way or another. But with full confidence I can say this - if I am planing cherry, every degree I make my blade bevel greater than 31 degrees, regardless of whether it is BU or BD, I will get less meters/feet of shavings before I have to resharpen. If you sharpen your blade at 50 degrees you will have two thirds less usable sharp edge as per the card board cut outs. If you are planing long grain and the wood is hard and cranky, using a LA BU plane with the bevel sharpened at 50 degrees you have selected the worst geometry possible to get good results on this type of wood. I agree with your comments that BU planes with a 20 degree bed makes much more sense as you have 8 degrees of more clearance, which will equate to more time planing before sharpening. I hope that helps with a better understanding of Blade Geometry. Unfortunately, talking about clearance angle doesn't suit some people, despite the fact that clearance angle in any blade geometry equation is the most critical. I hope that helps.

[@HondoTrailside]

Basic problem is that truly low angle bevel up planes are not the best choice in wood. One can make pretty much anything work, but it is going against the grain. However wooden planes with bevel down geometry are pretty much the best design. I will get to that in the moment. Basically the argument in the video is based on the idea that wear in the blade of BU planes will stop it cutting earlier than with a BD plane. Let's examine that. How could one mitigate that: 1) I you are in Oz and you are using a generally higher angle plane blades, then as with some block planes base your BU planes on a 20 degree bedding angle. This will help with the clearance angle issue, and the structure of a wooden plane issue. 2) What the client wanted was a plane that would allow him to switch blades and get a variety of different results from the same plane. So mitigation 2 is that each of the blades is being used less and will wear less. If one is following instructions on power sharpening, then at the end of session, on could top up the blades, and then one will have a lot planing to do before multiple blades get dull. I gather that in OZ, even the cheapest softwoods are planed with a 60 degree bevel, but in the western world 45 is fine, and works great in a BU format. 3) There might be an argument for using HSS in a bevel up plane if wear is an issue. I prefer Japanese blades, or O1 blades, but with power sharpening, and in a situation where blade wear is an issue HSS is a good choice, of course they are not all the same. For instance Blue Steel is basically a HSS. Not terrible no mater how you use it. 4) Another option would be to have a BD plane for general work, and a BU plane for all the odd angles. If you live in OZ and all your planing is at 60-70 you apparently don't need a lot of angles. But conversely in the West, you mostly don't need high angles. WHY NOT USE A BU plane? Basically the fad of BU planes a few years back is based on trying to get newbies into a plane they will have better luck with. In many different respects. They are easier to cycle the plane though sharpening, no pesky breaker. Just all around easier to get working, and they are good enough for most planing the weekender will do. Bad luck for the companies that produced them, but shortly after they hit the market, another fad came along. A few newbies rediscovered breakers, and that was the end of the bevel up plane for serious work. Personally I don't like breakers if I can get away without using them, but properly set (very very near the edge) the are significantly better for a lot of the work people do on difficult grain and rowed woods. So far I haven't seen a bevel up plane that has a breaker, I guess it is possible, but It doesn't seem to be available Then the other point. Say you are buying a 500 dollar plane, not particularly reasonable to expect it to do everything. A 500 dollar plane is for people who are either experts or on that path, as well as people who just like nice stuff. If you want the perfect set-up, it is a series of planes that each do something unique where you just reach for the appropriate plane. It isn't going to be a great experience to spend 500 bucks and then expect that one plane to do everything. But woodworking can be a 70 year thing if you learned from a family member. Maybe spread the cost over a longer period of time, buy real tools, not a series of stopgap tool. It is at least an option.