Beyond the 'Nameless Things': Cosmic Horror in Middle-earth

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Timestamps:
Introduction: Did Lovecraft Influence Tolkien? - 0:00
Different men, different tales - 2:07
Coincidental (?) Commonalities - 3:31
Tolkien, Lovecraft, and Modernity - 8:15
Contact with the Otherworldly - 9:47
Cosmic Horror and Cosmic Hope - 13:41
Little Fellows in a Wide World - 15:53
The (Lack of) Consolation of Philosophy - 18:53
The Fate of Frodo - 20:20
Conclusion: Hope and Suffering - 23:36
References: "The New Shoggoth Chic," Amy H. Sturgis
Available on her blog: www.amyhsturgis.com/?page_id=510
Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use purposes such as criticism, commentary, parody, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. All works used in this video (images, audio, etc.) belong to their respective authors and are used with permission or in accordance with the copyright holder's stated usage policy.
🖌️Art Credits🖌️
A full list of artworks, including links, is found here:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Thumbnail Art Credits:
"JRR Tolkien Portrait" by Donato Giancola: donatoarts.com/
"Howard Phillips Lovecraft" by Joao Goncosta (Jinn): www.artstation.com/artwork/L3...
Artists (in order of work’s first appearance):
1 - PhaseRunner: www.phaserunner.com/
2 - Pete Amachree: www.artstation.com/summerpudding
3 - Joao Goncosta: www.artstation.com/joaogoncosta
4 - Donato Giancola: donatoarts.com/
5 - Guillem Pongiluppi: www.artstation.com/guillemhp
6 - Sebastian Rodriguez: www.artstation.com/interdimen...
7 - Anato Finnstark: finnstarkillustration.com/
8 - Alystraea: www.deviantart.com/alystraeaart
9 - Alexey Rudikov: www.artstation.com/alexeyrudikov
10 - Diana Franco: www.artstation.com/dianafranco
11 - Andrea Piparo: www.andreapiparoart.it/projec...
12 - Simon Schmidt: www.deviantart.com/alarie-tano
13 - Bella Bergolts: www.deviantart.com/bellabergolts
14 - David Greset: gresetdave.wixsite.com/greset...
15 - Gus Hunter: www.artstation.com/artwork/n8wYO
16 - Matthew Stewart (© Fantasy Flight Games): www.matthew-stewart.com/middle...
17 - Jonathan Guzi: jonathanguzi.com
18 - Fabio Leone: www.artstation.com/fabioleone
19 - Nick Keller: www.nickkellerart.com/
20 - Ralph Damiani: www.artstation.com/ralphdamiani
21 - Borja Pindado (© Fantasy Flight Games): www.artstation.com/borjap
22 - Paulo Silvente: www.artstation.com/phsilvente
23 - Aleksander Karcz (© Fantasy Flight Games): www.artstation.com/aleksander...
24 - Gary Crosby: www.artstation.com/garycrosby
25 - Klaus Wittmann: www.artstation.com/klauswittmann
26 - Greg Rutkowski: www.artstation.com/artwork/6gOW
27 - Manuel Castañón: www.artstation.com/castaguer
28 - Raymond Gaustadnes: www.deviantart.com/shockbolt
29 - Joseph Feely: www.artstation.com/joefly
30 - Jenny Dolfen: goldseven.wordpress.com/
31 - John Howe: www.john-howe.com/portfolio
32 - MGCoco: / mgcoco
🎵Music Credits🎶
Where required, a license has been purchased for use of music.
Monasterium Imperi: monasteriumimperi.bandcamp.co...
Support Prometheus Studio's work: / prometheusstudio
Tracks Used: "Dominus Magisterium," "Liberate Lux," "Sanctus Terra," "Pax Imperatoris"
Thank you to those who have supported me on Patreon!
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#lordoftherings #tolkien #lovecraft

[@ConradsStudio]

This makes me wish Lovecraft had also been a restaurant critic. "Dark, unholy, nameless things dwell in Flavortown."

[@GirlNextGondor]

😂 Why is this so much funnier than it has any right to be?

[@bigsarge2085]

I never did care for squamous, maddening pudding.

[@matthewdunham1689]

Awesome

[@Amknownas_743great_explainer]

Casseroles definitely seem like something created by a dark unknowable intelligence approximating human food for the luls 😅😅

[@mrmedium2869]

"One pot to boil them all, One pot to steam them, One pot to mix them all and in the kitchen cook them"

[@sulljoh1]

In Lovecraft's time we were: 1) Discovering many new ancient (and extinct) civilizations 2) Coming to realize how truly vast and old the universe was I think he was responding to this new reality as Tolkien responded to the new world of industrialization and the horrors of WWI

[@nigeldepledge3790]

It has been said that much of Lovecraft's fiction arose from his wrestling with fears that only arose within him through a lack of comprehension of the modern world as it was coming into existence.

[@andrewvincent7299]

What's amazing about Lovecraft's works and how he delved into the greater universe and how our period of rulership over the world is so small insignificant is true about our real world and life. If you look into the ancient megalithic structures found all over the world that couldn't have possibly been built to the civilizations they're credited to(in these places there are clearly two different architectures. One that is clearly more advanced than the other and the less advanced one being more in line with the credited civilization). These megalithic structures are things that today we can't even do and have no idea how they were built. So it makes one wonder if humanity or at least a species that could have been our predecessors go back farther than we are told. Every region around the world has an ancient flood myth and these are civilizations that haven't had contact with each other. So it becomes easier to believe that there was indeed a real life flood cataclysm that wiped out our predecessors and that the survivors went on to become the first ancient civilizations(The Sumerians and the dynastic Egyptians) we recognize today.

[@sulljoh1]

@@andrewvincent7299Gene Roddenberry reportedly only got mad when someone told him that aliens built ancient wonders the pyramids. He felt it was taking credit away from humanity for our achievements

[@gg2fan]

I think the biggest thing Lovecraft was responding to was the death of god under a fully capitalized world, where it was no longer really possible to hold the same type and amount of belief in God as pre-modern people because the world have been entirely desacralized and made mundane by capitalism. It makes sense that humanity's initial subconscious reaction to realizing that the universe was a cold dark void without the light of god to fill it, is existential terror and dread

[@factorem9327]

It's worth noting that Tolkien hated when his works were compared, as metaphors or otherwise, to the real world. He considered his works to be purely fictional, and were for the sole purpose of entertainment rather than critique. That said, I think it's undeniable that the world Tolkien lived in had an impact on his ideas.

[@xXXJimboSliceXXx]

For Lovecraft antiquity was a source of horror that demonstrated the meaningless of the universe and life whereas Tolkien was enthralled by the ancient world and used it as a source for hope and meaning.

[@anchuisneoir3973]

What's more horrible than getting back home after a considerable absence to find that your worldly goods are being auctioned off and that nobody actually really thinks your alive until they merely decide you're severely mentally ill?

[@MagusMarquillin]

More horrible? Getting home _after_ your worldly goods and home are sold, without the time to intervene - even an hour later. With timing like that, I suspect the Valar were speeding him home. ;) And being declared "cracked" just helped Bilbo sort out who were his true friends.

[@donaldscholand4617]

Ah, but Bilbo came back with lots of money! That means he couldn't be crazy, merely eccentric!

[@thool]

What about coming home to find that your town had ransacked and inhabited by violent brutes, controlled by a senile terroristic chemist and his mentally ill manservant?

[@Aromantic_Russian646]

Hate it when that happens :/

[@henrypaleveda7760]

@@donaldscholand4617 All too true, and that also helped sort out who were friends and who were false.

[@istari0]

It occurs to me that life in the far east and south of Middle-Earth may well have had been a more Lovecraftian experience than the areas we are used to hearing about. We know that early on Melkor terrorized the Elves and later Men. The Valar came to the aid of the Elves but after the time of the War for the Sake of the Elves and certainly after his return to Beleriand, it doesn't seem like Morgoth paid that much attention to that area and we also don't know how far east Sauron's control went. Who knows what other lesser, nameless horrors, bred into existence by Melkor and Sauron may have remained to terrorize the inhabitants of those far-off lands?

[@Enerdhil]

It is an interesting thought that Melkor could have "bred" the Nameless things. The Watcher in the Water tried to grab Frodo, who was the Ring bearer. Maybe whatever seed of evil that created that creature could sense that same evil in the Ring. 🤔

[@centurion7398]

This alone might’ve made a more compelling idea for a show then RoP.

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil We know Melkor bred all sorts of nasty creatures in Arda's early ages. t's reasonable to think some of them crawled into deep holes and bred there.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 That makes sense. They don't even need to breed. They can just lurk somewhere in the deep shadows of Hithaeglir. Gollum would have been considered a Nameless thing by the Orcs because they knew their comrades disappeared but they had no idea what was causing it, though they likely knew it was a living creature.

[@henrypaleveda7760]

@@centurion7398 RoP suffered mostly from two things: trying to do too much at once, and a lack of explanation to new viewers. people familiar with the Silmarillion would recognize much and why particular things were important, but much of this why (even if that was not all needed) was not communicated in the show itself. with just a little more background of why some things were important, and a less ambitious timeline of events, it may have fared much better.

[@humblekek-fearingman7238]

Very insightful and thoughtful video. I'd always been aware of the bittersweet tragedy at the end of LoTR, but I never actually considered Frodo's personal ruination. It's not just that he's 'special' and that's why he gets to go with the elves. It's that both he and Bilbo have been so irreparably sundered from the only lives they can know and understand, by beings and forces unknowable and incomprehensible to them, that literally their only refuge is now in that very same realm that robbed them of their mortal innocence. At the end of their journey all that is left to them are strange unknowable things with pointy ears. No pipeweed, no beer, no strawberries or cream. No hobbit holes and no hobbits. This is actually a profoundly depressing revelation.

[@Enerdhil]

What do Elves eat?🤔

[@humblekek-fearingman7238]

@@Enerdhil Only Lembas.

[@Enerdhil]

@@humblekek-fearingman7238 Lembas is the only food ever mentioned in The Silmarillion. There are feasts that are held, but no food is mentioned. In The Hobbit, Bilbo and the Dwarves see and smell the delicious food that the Woodland Elves are eating. We know that those same Elves drink wine. Also, in Imladris, Elrond has a feast before the Council. Tolkien never mentions what food they actually eat. They are all likely Vegan.😏

[@humblekek-fearingman7238]

@@Enerdhil Just imagine your reward for saving the world is to leave home forever and never have a nice roast ever again.

[@Enerdhil]

@@humblekek-fearingman7238 I am sure Ambrosia is much better than roast anything.😋

[@nehukybis]

I'm glad you mentioned Lord Dunsany. What HG Wells was to SF, Dunsany was to fantasy. The Gods of Pegana was the original wholly invented fantasy setting, with its own unique pantheon of strange deities. If Dunsany was much better known in the first half of the twentieth century than he is now, it's because he was overshadowed by the popular success of his disciples. Moorcock, Leiber, Tolkien, Lewis, RE Howard and Clark Ashton Smith all would have been familiar with Dunsany's work. You can even see echoes of his own poetic, consciously archaic writing style in their prose. I think the fantasy genre would still exist without Dunsany, but I think it would look really different. It might look more like the Baron Munchausen stories. Less obsessed with pseudo-medieval settings, and more grounded in real world geography and history.

[@taylemgames2652]

Let's not forget Robert E. Howard. :) - I consider Tolkien, Howard, Lovecraft, Vance and Vern the big 5 grand daddies of modern pop culture literature. I would even toss in the more recent PK Dick for his big influences on Sci-Fi and dystopian genres.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Definitely - my brief research seemed to suggest a more direct link between Tolkien and Howard, if we're looking for ways that the same images and tropes got into the work of both Tolkien and Lovecraft. I also ran into what looked like a lot potential shared influences from the early 20th century; didn't have time to really dig into them but I'd very much like to continue investigating the other parallel streams that make up the weird-fiction/scifi/fantastic 'tradition'.

[@keithbieberly6445]

I was going to suggest Robert E Howard. I always thought Conan's career leading to the throne (and Atlantean ancestry) reminded me of Aragorn's travels and experiences in distant lands between his youth and, I guess, the events of LotR

[@matthewdunham1689]

H.G. Wells? Or did he come later? Poe predated them all?

[@Publicistvideos]

I’d add Fritz Leiber

[@wobh688]

I've long thought a PK Dickian interpretation of LotR metaphysics and ontology would be, at least amusing, if not informative.

[@konstantinriumin2657]

Lmao, now someone has to write a fanfic where Luthien is tentacled eldritch horror (and Beren is into it).

[@spaceanarchist1107]

Well, Luthien was able to voluntarily grow her hair into something she could use to climb...

[@sophiejones3554]

Many people have lol... and not just Luthien.

[@GirlNextGondor]

There are kinkier and fouler things than Orcs in the deep archives of the Internet... 😬

[@Anxiou5Panda]

I once saw a comment under a Shelob artwork saying, "Please make a version of her sucking Frodo's d*ck." Not the exact words but that's the gist. I raised my eyebrows so high it would rival the Eagles.

[@HuskyMang]

the dedication to the pronunciation at 6:19 was amazing.

[@GirlNextGondor]

You do not want to know how many takes that took 😅

[@EriktheRed2023]

@@GirlNextGondor No doubt a secret too dark for our minds to hold safely.

[@cynthias7299]

@@GirlNextGondor That was truly amazing. Bravo!!

[@interestedparty497]

Maybe I’m wrong, but isn’t Earendil is a four syllable name?

[@billmcdonough3950]

@@GirlNextGondor doubtless more than your sanity will allow you to recall.

[@lukesimmons7332]

Now imagine if you will the Whateley boys knocking at the gates of Menegroth to plight their troth to Luthien, pointing out to King Thingol they more so than the mortal Beren are closer in kinship to the princess as they all share celestial parentage.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Curufin: As a Consummate Troll and chronically Salty Fellow I wholeheartedly endorse this suit and will fight anyone who opposes it Maedhros: *ineffectual but profound facepalming*

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

Great video! I had to say that I LOVE the conception of spiders in Tolkiens works. “Pure evil” may be practically impossible for any inhabitant of Ea but I think Ungoliant and her kin is the closest thing to this. Even Morgoth and Sauron had motives to “fall” yet Ungoliant and spiders seems to be more primordial and “instinctive” evil per se. Sam describes Shelob who would hunt them just to eat another dinner in her thousands of years of life time as having eyes full of malice yet what she does seems to be totally understandable and innocent if Shelob wasnt a demonic spider with great horns and wicked eyes. I think Tolkien created a duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant on purpose to show different aspects of evil facing, in fact its the only instance of such bigger baddies fighting between themselves.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

And for once we really root for the Balrogs, faithfully arriving in the nick of time, stopping old Melkor from being eaten eons too early.

[@mjlamey1066]

Babe, wake up! The Unspoken One beneath the house is stirring again! Get rid of the calamari!

[@GirlNextGondor]

The words of the swaying, maddened cultists' chant will never leave my fevered brain; even now I wake up on moonless nights screaming along with them, -"BABE WAKE UP! BABE WAKE UP!"

[@michaelman957]

Lovecraft had such a tragic and twisted view of the world. It's a shame. I wonder what he might have written if he saw the world as Tolkien did.

[@gabrielluzlopes5674]

That's the thing, right? Art reveals author's most inner desires, vision and nature.

[@EriktheRed2023]

One wonders how much more play the superficial and deeper similarities would have received in The New Shadow, had Tolkien written it. An investigator uncovers a hidden cult and finds troublling truths about the nature of Men; how when you scratch a Man, you may find an Orc surprisingly near the surface, even in the most peaceful of times.

[@niniel73]

Two weeks ago I reread Return of the king and I was fricking terrified in the mount Doom chapter. It was so hopeless I almost physically felt the pain in my chest and felt wrecked the entire weekend.

[@johns1625]

I remember that too. Dark and dry and dusty and weathered with no cover other than those terrible thorny brambles

[@DCJMS]

here's something I wanted to say, in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath Lovecraft mentions a figure called Nodens, that name comes from the ruins of a Roman temple in England found in 1929, later Mythos writes model Nodens after Oden however Professor Tolkien who worked with the archaeologists connected Nodens to Celtic myth specifically the God-King Nuada Silverarm.

[@andrewvincent7299]

I love both Tolkien and Lovecraft's works. Both are the father's and the most influential figures in their genres. Tolkien to high fantasy and Lovecraft to cosmic horror.

[@David_Fellner]

This was a great episode. I've struggled for a long time to figure out why the message of hope in Tolkien's writings doesn't necessarily translate to long-term relief for the pains of life, and you just put a lot of that to words for me. Recognizing something as being "worth fighting for" only motivates you to continue the fight; it doesn't make the fight any easier or the losses less tragic.

[@keithprice475]

Yes! Look at Ukraine, for instance...

[@matthewdunham1689]

Life is a struggle, and ultimately, the greatest hero, most powerful king, or successful businessman will all succumb to the Doom of Man. But we all return to the secret fire of Eru Ilúvatar. Or as one of my favorite lines from Star Wars (Empire) For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

[@andrewvincent7299]

@@keithprice475 Ukraine is a good example because that is a war solely fought for because of the greed of our leaders. Evil men rule the world and the conflicts we see today are because of their greed and lack of care for the people.

[@catominor7306]

I think the biggest difference between Tolkien’s work and Lovecraft’s (outside of the more obvious things like genie) is that well both saw a vast world with forces outside the realm of human understanding, they responded to it very differently. Tolkien saw it as heartening and evidence that everything had some kind of meaning which tends, ultimately if slowly and with much adversity, for the good. Lovecraft saw a world were humans are perpetually victims of circumstances which tend to bring down all of our greatest works with no hope for escape. Also I really appreciate your pointing out that comes with being destined to do something. It is an interesting insight that I think helps explain the resonance these books can have with so many people. Who hasn’t felt at one time like they have to do something even though they aren’t sure how they will manage to pull it off.

[@jybrokenhearted]

Both men have had a great effect on literature and culture. Jack Vance also had a lesser effect himself.

[@matthewdunham1689]

Oh you hit the fantasy sweet spot for me, Tolkien and Lovecraft were top two of my childhood favorite writers. C.S. Lewis, Robert E Howard 3rd and 4th. Respectively.

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Armies of Exigo is probably the closest fantasy setting to combine these 2 guys works appart from minor references in stuff like Warcraft, sadly its very Mid storywise, I do wish some property somehow combine the styles of these 2 Great Authors someday.

[@matthewdunham1689]

I left out King but I’m not sure if he counts as fantasy although to me The Stand is his Lovecraftian Lord of the Rings masterpiece.

[@matthewdunham1689]

I just read that Howard and Lovecraft were good friends via letter writing. While their styles are completely different, each loved the others' stories. Both would slip in homages to the others' works. They both must have loved Tolkien. I'm sure they both were inspired by Poe. ❤

[@mandos1139]

I like how this video approached the similarities between Tolkien and Lovecraft from a deeper and more thematic lens. Too often when comparing them people will only ever focus on the Nameless things of Moria or Ungoliant. On top of everything that you said I would like to add that another somewhat horrifying or rather depressing aspect of Mankind that Tolkien was very aware of was Man’s quick “Satiety with Good” and reversion to a baser and less moral state. This is most evident in Tolkien’s abandoned sequel, the New Shadow where only 200 years after the War of the Ring, corruption is once again spreading anew in the hearts of Gondorians as they create and join ‘Satanic’ cults.

[@GirlNextGondor]

The New Shadow fits with these themes super well. 'Cults' is another element that both authors use pretty often but handle in different ways.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@GirlNextGondor Imagine a Middle Earth story with Lovecraft style cults. That would be all kinds of awesome!

[@henrypaleveda7760]

@@sebastianevangelista4921 I thik Tolkien refrained from completing it because it was leaning more towards the horror genre.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@henrypaleveda7760 Honestly that's part of why I take such interest in it seeing as it feels almost like a self-deconstruction that would fit right in with more modern fantasy stories.

[@walter1383]

@@sebastianevangelista4921 That's basically a very rough description of the Warhammer fantasy setting, lol.

[@brendanmooney7607]

Anybody else watch this video by gazing into a forbidden orb, and receive upload notifications via strange inscriptions? Anyone? Just me?

[@simonmorris4226]

My time for oblivion will inevitably arrive. But not now! Elbereth!

[@GirlNextGondor]

A day may come when the land shall sink, and the dark ocean floor shall ascend amidst universal pandemonium -- BUT IT IS NOT! THIS! DAY!

[@simonmorris4226]

@@GirlNextGondor I have my Glamdring and I’m carving a cherrywood staff ready!

[@therealpatagonianpancakes]

Talking about their fictional languages, I think it's interesting we can just tell they came from completely opposite views of the Welsh language.

[@GirlNextGondor]

YES! I was strongly reminded of the old adage "to speak Welsh one needs a permanent case of bronchitis" while trying to pronounce R'lyehian phonemes.

[@nillynush4899]

One man pioneered a completely new genre of Horror, Another man created a blueprint for all Modern Fantasy. Both were geniuses.

[@jpbjoel]

Great topic for a video. Here is an odd detail of interest: Lovecraft wrote of horrible tentacled creatures… and eventually died cancer of the small intestine….

[@jybrokenhearted]

He did have an odd childhood.

[@davidhendershot2380]

One should also, for true insight, consider G. K. Chesterton and Robert E. Howard: Lovecraft: there is the unknowable, and it will destroy us. Howard: There is the unknown, and it can be fought. Tolkien: There is the unknown, and much of it is good, but you need courage to see it. Chesterton (in the Purple Wig): there is the unknown, but people who claim to own it all are in need of humility.

[@hitchman84]

Gotta say, I never expected to hear a direct comparison between Luthien Tinuviel and the ol' Whateley boys up there 'round Dunwich, eyah.

[@GirlNextGondor]

The leaves were long, the grass was green The trees a-bendin in the path On Sentinel Hill the Thing was seen Upon its father hollerin'....

[@hitchman84]

@@GirlNextGondor It's like hearing the Lay of Leithian recited by Jud Crandall.

[@paulvmarks]

The vital difference is that in Tolkien's work there is God - who is infinitely more powerful than the creatures of evil, and in Lovecraft's work there-is-not.

[@PrimetimeD]

Very enjoyable listen. Towards the end, I'm reminded of the final quote from Morgan Freeman's character in the film Se7en: "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."

[@ptorq]

Tolkien revised so much he wasn't always internally consistent (gasp!), and that quote about the "nameless things" being older than [Sauron] is one example. Sauron predates the existence of the world itself. Eru Iluvatar IS older than Sauron, the Valar are PROBABLY older than Sauron, and some of the Maiar MIGHT be; outside those groups ... almost certainly not. Gandalf's statement could be true if a) the "nameless things" are other Maiar (possible but unlikely, and if they are Sauron should know them) or b) Gandalf regards Mairon's fall from grace, when he became known as Sauron, as being effectively the death of Mairon ("Admirable") and the birth of Sauron ("Abhorred").

[@SonofSethoitae]

Is it not also possible that the Nameless Things are coeval with Illuvatar, and differ only in that they are less benevolent?

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

I think they might be from the songs of disorder made by melkor@@SonofSethoitae

[@williamerickson520]

@@SonofSethoitae I forget who it was, but one of the other Tolkien channels suggested that the nameless things predate even Iluvatar's song that created Middle Earth, that they were part of the darkness beyond that Ungoliant was from. At least that was my understanding.

[@jacobsedlack1173]

I like to say this whenever he comes up: If H.P Lovecraft became aware of Japan or Japanese culture, his head would explode. In part because of impotent prejudice fury about people making decent living by the sea and because of tentacle hentai. The work of Katsushika Hokusai would just be the death of him. I would now like to suffix this by adding that comparatively speaking Tolkien has a definitively less...Objectionable opinion on interracial marriage.

[@johnisaacfelipe6357]

What is it with people nowadays and their obsession with interracial coupling?

[@swehumorofficial]

When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.

[@Rakhamon]

Wonderful video! I don't think Tolkien and Lovecraft had much in the way of shared philosophy. If anything I believe they were both shaped by the same external forces and zeitgeist but chose to internalize it and interpret it in wildly different ways. I find it ironic that Tolkien could manage to keep his faith and generally positive outlook on the world to the degree where it permeated all his writing given that Tolkien saw the horror of the first World War first-hand while Lovecraft surrendered to depression and apprehension despite living his entire life sheltered. I saw another poster mention the similarities between Tolkien and Robert E. Howard and as an amateur Howard scholar this is a very valid line of research. Howard and Lovecraft were both entranced with the idea of a vanished past leaving echoes and the idea of the Long Defeat/Northern Courage and despite very different methodology I believe there's a lot of consistency between the two. Also some other historical stuff as I mentioned in the Druedain video, both Howard and Tolkien were fascinated by the "wild men of the woods/woodwose" concept and featured it in their works. Lovely, new favorite video from you!

[@pedrovargas2181]

Maaybe because Lovecraft was sickly and thus grew up sheltered while Tolkien was healthy and hale since birth and thus, overall, stronger both in body and mind.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

It would be interesting to see a Tolkien-esque fantasy world filtered through the sense of Lovecraft style philosophy and horror!

[@zarkostojanovic8749]

At times like these, I feel sad I can leave only one like per video. Somehow, you always succeed to surpass yourself.

[@hipsterhunter4eva901]

Yeah Frodo and Bilbo just flying by the seat of their pants is very Lovecraftian. Especially Bilbo later in life going “yeah idgaf anymore”

[@richardleau]

Wow. Really impressive! I recognized the cosmic horrors of Shelob and the Lurker but never knew if the two writers knew of each other. I suspected that there was some cosmic implication for Tom Bombadil in a Lovecraftian sense. Lovecraft and Tolkien are like two sides of the same coin in the early 20th century. Lovecraft signaling despair, the inability of fighting against overpowering cosmic entities, and eventual surrender to the cosmic horrors and Tolkien illustrating the fight and possibility of victory over the forces of darkness. Both designing whole universes with differing but connected aspects within their respective writings. Tolkien with the Silmarillion and the Hobbit and Lovecraft with his interconnected stories and novels including the Dream Cycle. I know Lovecraft was an anglophile. It would be interesting to see a literary analysis of Lord Dunsany through both their work. I also know that Lovecraft had childhood illnesses that separated him from his peers. Also family troubles. I think his father eventually died of complications from some venereal disease and lost his mother early as well. He also had trouble with romance. He married but the marriage failed and he had no children and died poor and alone, not seeing much success from his work. A sad life. Contrasted with Tolkien who had a long marriage with children and a successful career as a university professor. It's easy to see how their life experiences colored their fictional worlds. Perhaps if Lovecraft's life was happier his literary creations would have been too. It would also be interesting to see an analysis of how both laid the way for later authors such as GRR Martin who take liberally from both sources. Thanks for the great video.

[@RaoulKunz1]

I feel one key event to both authors and insanely important to how their fiction works and what it is about is, how could it be different for two men living in the first half of the bloody 20th century, the *Great War.* For Tolkien it is the need to find some form of meaning in the horrors he witnessed and had part in and the written word of Tolkien is *so much more* evocative of the horrors of the Great War, the burnt and poisoned fields of wet Flanders and the downright apocalyptic events of the Year of Battles in '16, the way that "the Hobbit experience" strongly echoes how the Somme must have been for the Pals Battalions, than any filmed version that are more in line with common mediaeval fantasy than Tolkien's tale is, in spite of it's vaguely 10th century setting the later third age is in many other aspects. HPL on the other side is struggling with a world that seems to have taken a sudden shift into a slower, softer but also very sinister decline, away from anything that the world had promised to young Howard, personal horror in his family, consumed by sickness and madness and the strange but undeniably present near complete shift in society, something induced by events across the sea, the great bloodshed of the Old World, witnessing the way that the old, established, seemingly eternal powers ground each other into nothingness in a maelstrom of blood and death and fire only perceived second hand but nevertheless destroying his very idea of security and in a very sinister way destroying the world he had wanted to live in. Tolkien lived this destruction and desperately tried to find meaning in the Apocalypse of the Old World he witnessed and took part in and shed his blood in and found it in projection and almost therapeutical world building. Lovecraft tried to understand how his world had collapsed by an seemingly external event, how a sinister slow and creeping Apocalypse had overwhelmed his existence and had dissolved the society he had felt secure in and he found the only way to explain this was cold entropy. In many ways these authors remind me of both approaches one can find in the works of Oswald Spengler, another, albeit older, contemporary writer. Tolkien in many ways is a more teleological version of the cultural model we find in "The Downfall of the West" written during the War about the cyclical nature of history and how diverse cultures deal with this and the *way* more cynical, almost Lovecraftian, assertions we find in his later work "Man and the Machine" from the early '30s which amount to stating that there is no escape, there is no other way but the one we are on and we have to harden ourselves and endure, that there simply *is* no other way and optimism only amounts to cowardice. Another lovely video, thank you! Best regards Raoul G. Kunz

[@matthewdunham1689]

You are the best KZbin channel going. Keep up your great work. I look forward to your new content with extreme anticipation. You possess an excellent combination of wit,humor insights delivered with a perfect narration.

[@Enerdhil]

Don't forget her intellect. Lexi's videos are like a college course in the Legendarium.

[@Valdagast]

It would be interesting to look at the heady mixture of modern physics and mathematics and see their influence on the writing of Lovecraft and Tolkien. Both lived through an era when it seemed that everything which had been bedrock solid - Euclidean geometry, realism (in the physics sense), and the very fabric of space and time seemed to sway. Einstein revealed a universe where space-time itself morphed and bubbled, and quantum mechanics inspired all kinds of bad philosophy (few people realize that Schrödinger's cat was actually a _reductio ad absurdum,_ asking the anti-realists if they were truly willing to accept cats in quantum superpositions. Bohr's answer was that the role of physics was to make predictions, not to deal in what the world really was like). Lovecraft returns repeatedly to the phrase "non-Euclidean geometry", which sounds horrible but is simply the geometry of non-flat surfaces - an apple has non-Euclidean geometry.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

There is another side to this comparison you left out, how sometimes Lovecraft will surprisingly give a Happy Ending, eventually arguably a Eucatastrophe. Also on a comparative mythology level I think of Orome and Nodens are both similar adaptations of Odin.

[@kitsunefirefox1986]

For me Tolkien's love & use of the ancient as opposed to Lovecraft's fear of it can be seen best in a Doctor Who quote: "I love old things, they make me sad" "what's so good about being sad?" "Its happy for deep people"

[@jonathanwells223]

Has pretty big “high IQ” Copypasta vibes

[@centurion7398]

This was a beautiful piece. Thank you.

[@troutwardbound]

This was one of your best.

[@sethbartley2212]

Fantastic video! Thank you for delving deeper (no pun intended) than just the nameless things as a connection. Learned a LOT. Can't wait to share.

[@studentjohn]

I have occasionally thought that - while there is no intentional connection between the two universes by the authors - it is sometimes possible to regard Lovecraft's as Tolkien's seen from a different perspective. For example, in 'The Black Stone' - a Robert E Howard story set in the Cthulhu mythos - the action is set in a landscape implied to actually be impossibly vast ruins of an ancient and otherworldly civilisation, and centres around an encounter with an alien entity that emerges from them, and its human-like but degenerate worshippers. On reading it I was struck that the whole thing could be taking place in the ruins of something like Angband or Utumno, the entity could easily be one of Melkor's less well known monstrosities (like the watcher in the water), and it's worshippers answered well to Tolkien's descriptions of humans with Orcish ancestry.

[@AIA1990]

21:08 is the best representation of a balrog I’ve seen.

[@karlsengupta7185]

Beautifully wrought. Excellent use of citations, deep insights. Bravo!

[@smoss9813]

Thank you for putting the artist credits up there. Great video

[@youonlylikeonce9592]

This is literally the first video of yours I've seen, and I'm subscribing to your channel. I pretty much never do that. Excellent work. Very interesting. Thank you. :)

[@gavinfinch2393]

Excellent video essay!!!

[@Limubi1]

You are just so good at this. Thank you so much :D

[@StrikeTheSkyline]

I'm seeing some parallel lines between Tolkien/Lovecraft and Theoden/Denethor Very clever writing GnG!

[@joeking8734]

I love this video. I always thought there was more of a connection between these fictional worlds then what initial reading may reveal. Thanks GirlNextGondor.

[@Huskytabby]

Glad you made this! I love both works and commonly wish they could've met because they both made such great works.

[@Hemrahban]

first video i see from you, awesome stuff and very insightful analysis, thanks :)

[@emtiger3]

The bookends of my literary formation, finally, side by side. Thank-you, for shedding a blessed and an unholy light upon them. The combined light (how "two tree" like), providing the only way they may truly be seen. What so many of us have known intuitively for years, you have now given voice. Well done, Lexi!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it, it's so satisfying when two different interests overlap or collide!

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

Nice work thanks

[@PaulMccarthyIII]

so glad i happened upon your channel! its super thought provoking. Which is a huge plus! thanks! - i actually started re-reading the hobbit and plan on going on to the LOTR trilogy next out of inspiration

[@gamehosegarden]

Fascinating! Thanks!

[@blingblay]

Awesome video!! The mystery and horror of the unknown in Middle Earth is so interesting to me. It's one of the main reasons why I love the Silmarillion: Morgoth, Ungoliant, Glaurung, corrupted Maiar such as Balrogs, and even the Dagor Dagorath are all so wonderfully spooky!!

[@gingerapple1725]

Thanks, this was wonderful!

[@oudviola]

Very thoughtful and interesting discussion! Would love to hear you pronounce Cthulhu as Lovecraft apparently imagined (something like Khlul-chlu)!

[@robingile4301]

And then I will add a third leg to this tripod, Robert E. Howard, he is player in this game too, admittedly in a dramatic distance.

[@GirlNextGondor]

After my research for this topic and the comments I've gotten, I now really want to dive into Howard and see whether I can make an argument for Sword and Sorcery being the midpoint between High Fantasy and Cosmic Horror. Much reading awaits me 😁

[@robingile4301]

I admire your devotion, you go girl.

[@aiforgemaster]

Great video!

[@VonDrynn]

amazing video! thank you

[@shanewilliams9122]

Great video! I am a HUGE fan of both Tolkien and Lovecraft, so this video really makes me very happy!

[@TheFunkMaestro]

I think you’ve made a fascinating argument here. For all the dread that comes with abject nihilism in the face of an uncaring universe, at the very least one could take some quiet solace in knowing things are beyond their control, that their actions are inconsequential and not worth worrying too much over. In Tolkien’s world, one is asked to face immense suffering and injustice, and reckon with that existing within a world that is purportedly orderly and good. And there is most definitely a horror to the realization that your choices are *deeply* significant, that one must rise well above their means, regardless of capability, because the world itself conspired to make it so. There is no nihilistic comfort in inconsequence to be found when the fate of the world rests upon one’s own choices.

[@TurinInquisitor]

Amazing video and the most detailed one I've seen so far on this rare topic! The devs who made Moria's deepest level and storyline for Lord of the Rings Online also did a great job.

[@jakemeyer8188]

It's probably worth mentioning that although both Tolkien and Lovecraft were educated, only Tolkien was truly learned in the cultures he pulled from. Lovecraft's use of "foreign" cultures were often done so incorrectly or oddly (like the in-universe name of the author of the Necronomicon; Abdul Alhazred). Lovecraft really shows that his knowledge of "strange" cultures were drawn from some rather dubious (and occasionally racist) publications of the time and not long and detailed research. Tolkien however...well, obviously a different story. Just to be clear though, I still love Lovecraft!

[@sindrimyr5351]

This was a wonderful Video.

[@sainiharika]

I was long wondering, why you didn’t cover nameless things till now. 😯 thank you for covering this. ❤❤❤

[@lizycole8999]

Of all the videos that I could have found in my algorithm that would introduce me to your channel, it had to be this one...

[@EriktheRed2023]

How sneaky of you to publish when I'm in the shower. Here I am, nearly half an hour late! 😄 Settling down to watch now...

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'm stealthy like that 😄

[@themadbotanist2122]

Thanks for the great comparison, very thorough. I've long been curious about similarities between Lovectaft's "The Beast in the Cave" and Smeagol's transition into Gollum.

[@Bruelax11]

Love the topic, love both authors.

[@Reece-mu9ig]

I couldn’t help but think of C.S. Lewis’ Space Trilogy (also called the “Cosmic” Trilogy by some, interestingly enough) when watching this video. There’s numerous instances of what could be considered cosmic horror in those books. Especially the second & third.

[@dm_nimbus]

I love this comparison so much. I for one, when I first read Tolkien in middle school, pored over every mention of these great monsters to see if I couldn't unearth some new clue about them so I could experience them again.

[@ZendikarMage42750]

I would argue that nihilism is an integral component of cosmic horror. Lovecraftian entities are so alien and terrifying because they have no concept of good or evil as humans understand it. The fact that there is definitive good and evil in LotR and that the otherworldly beings in it adhere to one side or the other makes it antithetical to cosmic horror in my mind, even if it does share similar descriptions of otherworldly entities and influences.

[@docopoper]

That was an excellent video.

[@MattbyNature]

This is such an interesting connection that I have not made before. I have one question: would you consider Frodo's fate and how he was "chosen" more lovecraftian or kafkaesque? To me it is more the latter: an absurd and incomprehensible choice outside of ones own power but from force we are weirdly familiar with/that we are a part of. I don't know if this makes sense (I'm a molecular biologist, so I have no education in literature hence the utter lack of ability to explain what I mean) but let me know what you think!

[@GirlNextGondor]

I *think* I get what you're saying - particularly in the way the Wise (Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc.) all seem to find the 'selection' of Frodo surprising, but not shocking. They all seem to go "oh yeah, of COURSE it's the last person we'd expect and the one apparently least capable of what's being demanded of him, how typical of Doom/Eru/the Great Theme, sorry kid there's probably no getting out of it." I mean, they're more eloquent than that, and a little less fatalistic - but you get my drift. Recognizing that a sufficiently complex order can seem more random than true randomness is where it veers from Lovecraftian to Kafkaesque.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Kafka has a (sometimes hidden) spiritual side, which Lovecraft rejects. What did Kafka say? Something about how language can only allude to what is outside the experienced world? I'd say your comparing Tolkien's Legendarium to Kafka is apt.

[@juniusluriuscatalus6606]

I'd definitely call it Kafkaesque and absolutely absurd. But then again, herein the Ring clearly leans to the children's fairy tale end: the whole story is about little people, very naive and utterly ignorant of the outside world and politics and all, and how they can achieve wonders if they just work for it. I was 10 (my memory could betray me here) when I absolutely devoured it and noticed nothing, but I was a child. Later on, maybe on reading it for the fifth or so time and being a teenager, it suddenly felt horribly wrong. It felt like irresponsible if not just idiotic decision to name Frodo the ring bearer - even if he already had it and he would appear to be neutral in the allied powers. A ceremonial position perhaps. But at its core it is still children's tale.

[@dlevi67]

"Someone must have been telling tales about Frodo B., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was recuited into a fellowship to destroy the Ring." Yep, it works.

[@dandrodandro1272]

for me the fact that frodo was chosen still make some sense , because he is a hobbit, somewhere in the lord of the ring gandalf said that hobbit are very resistant to evil and also hobbit are not very powerful so if they became corrupted they won't become the new dark lord .

[@ThisHandleIsDefinatelyTaken]

Neat analysis.

[@Taranchule]

Lovecraft and Tolkien are the two of the most important authors to me personally, and I must commend you for treating them both respectfully. All too often modern commentators just try to score cheap points and jabs at Lovecraft's less savory beliefs without bothering to try and understand the ideas he was presenting in his work. You did so, without resorting to endless quips about his bloody cat. It was refreshing, and I tip my hat to you.

[@TheHoneyBadger-yh5vj]

God bless you and your work. Keep up the good work young lady 💜💜💜🤗🤗🤗💜💜💜

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Thanks Lexi!

[@King_Steffon_II]

Thanks! Just subbed 🙏🏾

[@RamBam3000]

I found this very insightful... and it highlights things I've been =considering myself.

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

I'm impressed you can pronounce the names. Congratulations. Your channel has certainly grown. I remember it when it first started.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you, Margaret! I appreciate you sticking with me. 🥰

[@johnwilbur3050]

These are literally my two favorite authors ever

[@WafflyNimb]

The big gasp before trying to pronounce the Cthulhu-spoonersim gave me a big laugh :D

[@TerezatheTeacher]

Now I want to listen to you mangle more constructed languages. Excellent video, very informative and enjoyable as always. Also, how would Tolkien and Lovecraft react to the need to protect content about them from bots?

[@Seinghesa]

I love this thank you. :)

[@robertherring9277]

I often think of Elric. Yes there are connections, seemingly, with Lovecraft. But Elric was Moorcock's response to Tolkien (so I read decades ago anyway)... A flipping of the script. An Anti-hero king that returns to destroy his own kingdom and lose the girl (to death). Im not sure if you read it, but I did in 3rd grade before I read Tolkien. I mean, Elric was in the 1st edition Deities and Demigods (only edition it appeared do to copyright issues).

[@rafinery576]

6:05 careful with that, my furniture started moving

[@eleksisjohnson9736]

"Eru Iluvatar is the ultimate eldritch horror" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Yellow-dx8uk]

This is really interesting/well done (commenting for algorithm)

[@XakonXIV]

Brilliant. I am not familiar with Lovecraft's work myself (though you've certainly made me curious), but the opposition between hope and despair is one of the main things, I find, which makes Tolkien's writings truly compelling, and you manage to elucidate that wonderfully while also implementing an original, thought-provoking point of view. Thank you!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Hope this video helps you learn a bit about Lovecraft: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hp7Hq6Oql96esKssi=b02v51cfwP6b56KI

[@commandosolo1266]

If I may, as a lifelong fan of both Tolkien and Lovecraft, I feel any new Lovecraft reader must know in advance that Lovecraft was a shockingly small-minded bigot, both anti-Semitic and racist even by the abysmal standards of the 1920s. It taints his stories in often shocking ways. It may be that in his later years Lovecraft began to grow out of these beliefs; his letters appear to support that. Lovecraft, in contrast to Tolkien, was also firmly atheistic. He was a man of science and accomplished amateur astronomer who speculated on the existence of trans-Neptunian planets. In "The Colour Out of Space" he prophesied the fates of Chernobyl and Fukushima. Years staring out into the eternal midnight of space gave him a cold view of a meaningless and empty cosmos. "...Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age. I hope that no one else will accomplish this piecing out; ...I shall never knowingly supply a link in so hideous a chain." And it was this nihilism that made his horror stories such bangers -- Lovecraft wrote from conviction! Fans of Tolkien may find Lovecraft unappealing. I'm sure Tolkien would have deplored the man even as he praised the nigh-demonic power of Lovecraft's writing (as I do.) Those who adore Tolkien and Lewis as pioneers of mythopoeia must acknowledge that Dunsany and Lovecraft blazed the trail before them.

[@raphaelargus2984]

A great drinking game is read Lovecraft and do a shot every time he uses "cyclopean" or "non-Euclidean".

[@GirlNextGondor]

I finish my drink when we get to 'psychically hypersensitive'