Let's Talk About Morgoth! | Tolkien Discussion with The Red Book

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A much-suggested discussion between me and Steven of The Red Book on Melkor/Morgoth, his character, the nature of his fall, and his effect on Tolkien's universe. Includes non-studio-quality audio, the phrase 'soaking in nasty Morgoth juice,' tackling questions way above our pay grade, and imagining a gentler, fluffier Dark Lord.
CHECK OUT The Red Book channel here!
/ theredbook
Featured Videos:
"Of Numenor and Melkor Worship"
• Númenor | The Nature o...
"Of Melkor and the Secret Fire"
• Melkor | The Power of ...
"What Is Morgoth's Ring?"
• Morgoth's Ring | The E...
Timestamps:
Intro - 0:00
Synopsis and Backstory - 4:40
Corruption, Domination, and Power - 12:37
The Curse of Turin - 23:06
Fingolfin's Challenge - 30:33
Blaming the Valar - 39:39
Fate and Free Will, Rebellion and Creation, and The Problem of Evil - 48:45
Outro and Patron Thank-yous - 1:07:35
Thank you to those who have supported me on Patreon!
Avari:
Stefan Schiller
Rob McPhee
Ken Higgenbotham
Eroza
Daniel Stride
Sindar
Zach Burns
Eric Dreasher
Arthur Menkin
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Andres Guerra
Noldor
SeaGreenMango
Anders (Valdagast)
House of Finwe
ANKreutzberg
Dorwin Gray
Elu Thiccgol
Emperor Kane
Jarrod Carver
John Love
Karen Donohue
Michael Donohue
🔥House of Feanor🔥
Brendan Mooney
Eliannenor
ERoseB
frankie12string
Joel Bion
Kevin Gilstad
Lewis Maskell
Luke
Roguehotpocket
Tamara Saldanha
Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use purposes such as criticism, commentary, parody, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. All works used in this video (images, audio, etc.) belong to their respective authors and are used with permission.
All effort has been made to accurately credit artists; please contact me for questions or concerns!
✨Thumbnail Art✨
Morgoth: He Who Arises In Might
www.deviantart.com/dymondstar...
by Dymond Starr Austin
dymondstarr.com/
Video Images:
The Vault
www.deviantart.com/ralphdamia...
by Ralph Damiani
www.artstation.com/ralphdamiani
(work commissioned and owned by Steven Gibb)
Fingolfin Challenges Morgoth at the Gates of Angband
www.artstation.com/artwork/lV...
by Pete Amachree
www.artstation.com/summerpudding
#tolkien #legendarium #lordoftherings

[@ardaea2529]

When the first and second greatest tolkien channels collaborate it has to be good. Looking forward to this.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I won't ask which one is which 😅 It was a great conversation and I loom forward to more in the future!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@GirlNextGondor I'd suggest joint number ones 😁😁😁

[@sainiharika]

Omg

[@stnylan]

I could listen to the two of you talk about Tolkien for hours. Please do more. The idea of a Melkor with less malice but more mischief, as it were, brings a smile to my face.

[@Nedded]

We don't talk about Morgoth, no, no, no! We don't talk about Morgoth... but It was my creation day It was our creation day We were getting ready, and there wasn't a cloud in the void No clouds allowed in the void Morgoth walks in with a mischievous grin- Thunder! You singing this story, or am I? I'm sorry, Eru, go on...

[@GirlNextGondor]

You have no IDEA how hard I had to work to not just litter this video with Encanto references 🤣

[@DannyJane.]

I had one all but ready to go, and here you did a much better, truer version. Love it! Love it! Love it! Still laughing.

[@DannyJane.]

@@GirlNextGondor Wish you had. I love your channel with its in depth analyses. I think you could run a comparison between them in several areas. Bruno is exiled from his family. He bears no resentment, but remains nearby and lovingly forgives. Morgoth is rejected by HIS family, but resentment and hatred build until they ultimately destroy him. Analyze this and you could talk for WEEKS!

[@LordTelperion]

@@GirlNextGondor Isabela is 100% Vána!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Two of my favorite people talking about deep stuff in Middle-earth? Heck yes! And the best part is you’ve sparked some new ideas of my own…. 😁

[@timothymartensen9040]

So when are we getting the triad collaboration between yall?

[@GirlNextGondor]

Aw 😊 thank you, and I can't wait to see those ideas! Provoking new Tolkien Lore videos is one of my favorite pastimes.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

@@timothymartensen9040 An idea I can get behind! This is what we all need in our lives right now!

[@docopoper]

The Red Book is actually such a good channel. I highly recommend it.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Agreed! Excellent videos, always well researched and presented.

[@douglasharley2440]

@@GirlNextGondor i heard about girlnextgondor's channel from him!...class recognize class.

[@patriciofernandez6500]

Very good for sleeping...

[@darthex0]

I always translated the singing of creation and Eru showing the Ainur what they had made manifest. Was not before, did not end, but was unfolding simultaneously with the stories of Arda. Melkor's destruction of the trees was a dissonance in his song. His defeat by Tulkas was a return to the original theme etc. It introduces the concepts of birth and death within a fated tapestry. Melkor attempts to control these same concepts but cannot master the giving of life. Tolkien infers through his character focus that life is there for those who do not seek control. By seeking to control, one inevitably seeks ones own end. Futility was not Melkor's to control. He alone of the Ainur knew fear, because he alone produced actions of a negative consequence.

[@TheSoldier0fortunE]

That's...really profound. I like that.

[@reflectiverambling1148]

I think it's easily argued that even if you don't adore 'baddie” characters, in a work that's well planned and considered, the absolute best of them have very intriguing story arcs. So it's no surprise that it is undeniable to appreciate them and have a lot of material to work with when it comes to them. Even if it's a love-to-hate-them situation, it's because a good creator gives you more than superficial reasons to be invested in a story and that includes the antagonistic figures. While plain ol' good vs. evil and be fluffy fun, the things worth really digging into have more depth. Lexi I officially think people should commission you to provide incredibly effective summaries that are also amusing. I've spoken before about the conflicts and frustration with self fulfillment in Turin's story drives me mad. No pun intended. Oh that is a GREAT question about him knowing about what the elves have been told! I think that defeat was a massive eye opening for everyone involved. Also a REALLY good point about not understanding men being a reason that they're not sure on HOW to even act. I do wonder if maybe that is exactly what makes them realize the true strength of men, not just the elven yo-yoing concerning souls /afterlife and the like. Also at the same time a lot of times also blame the Valar but maybe it's also like the question: Why does “God” let bad things happen. Maybe there was enough foresight that if the people of ME didn't settle this themselves not only would the chaos just continue with the next power usurper, which is going to happen to some extent if we consider human history, then intervening would almost certainly not lead to any solid/lasting 'conclusion'. Two of the best just really delivering ! Thank you!

[@GirlNextGondor]

One of the pieces of writing advice I see all the time (up there with Show Don't Tell) is that villains/antagonists NEED to have believable motivations. Not necessarily good or nice or even sympathetic motivations, but ones that make some kind of sense. It's impressive to me how Tolkien achieves that, while also preserving the terror and drama of an antagonist as powerful and deranged as Morgoth. He might as well be 'pure evil' in terms of his cruelty, but the fact that he does have a detectable personality and a goal that's uncomfortably resonant makes him even worse. Another question re: the Elves is, what have they been told, and what do they *believe* about what they've been told? After all most of the Exiles would at this point be of the opinion that the Valar are guilty of misrepresenting some things, or of being misled themselves. Feanor does not seem terribly impressed by the declaration of the Doom; someone like Fingolfin wouldn't be as dismissive, but does he necessarily take the Valar at their word? We both mentioned at the end how much more there was to get into 😆 I'm sure there will be a future opportunity to delve into some of these topics further!

[@zacklemay3543]

Just came back from work to be greeted by a 70 min collab between two of my favourite youtubers discussing Morgoth. Life is good 👍

[@GirlNextGondor]

Cheers! It was a very satisfying convo and I'm glad others can enjoy it too 😊

[@abe9458]

Feels like the Stars have aligned, really great discussion and video as Always!

[@jmiester25]

The pettiness of Morgoth going after Turin and his family is something I've been saying for years. 1000% spot on

[@tominiowa2513]

How about a collaborative discussion on _Farmer Giles of Ham_ - explain the names, hidden jokes, etc?

[@thebrotherskrynn]

A fantastic discussion gave me some ideas for some videos about Morgoth, Eru & also of course Fingolfin and Turin so thanks! This was such a treat, to see the two cleverest readers in our Fellowship band together, now if only we could have you two team up with JRRT Lore!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Having the three of us in a single conversation would probably exceed the pedantry levels of the universe... though it would be quite entertaining. Glad you enjoyed it and that it gave you some inspiration!

[@jasonpatterson8123]

Great discussion! Steven(sp) is always interesting to listen to...as are GnG...I'd love to hear you guys have a discussion with Rainbow Dave over at Tolkien Untangled...

[@GirlNextGondor]

I've enjoyed several of his videos, certainly an idea worth exploring!

[@obxwave]

The best two Tolkien channels on KZbin come together…wonderful! The only thing that could possibly have made it better would be a deep dive into the story of Eöl and Aredhel, but I’m not complaining!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Just waiting for the opportune moment... it does no good to rush into things. 😉 Glad you enjoyed it!

[@brucemaximus3797]

49:25 I recommend "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis. The question of "Why allow evil?" is one of the oldest in theology.

[@Everything28208]

I am just waiting for the second song...

[@TheHeroRises]

YES!!! My kitchen pipes just literally broke. This is just the perfect vid to listen to while I’m under the sink. Thanks GNG and TRB!

[@616thedevil]

Love both these channels because they talk about ideas instead of just events and substantiate claims they make

[@istari0]

That was intense! I'll definitely have to listen to it again. When's the next one? I do have a couple of thoughts/questions that I am reminded of though. 1) Why was it a mistake to bring the elves to Valinor during the Years of the Trees when later on it is revealed that the elves had to go to Valinor or eventually fade to nothing but disembodied spirits? 2) Would it have really been all that disastrous if the Valar had intervened to take down Sauron, preferably by not letting him (and that balrog) escape after the War of Wrath? Sauron's forces were never as mighty as Morgoth's and didn't have balrogs and dragons in them nor was Sauron himself a Vala. I'm sure there would have been damage but compare it to what Sauron did over the next 6500 years. P.S. It sounded to me like your audio got cut off a few seconds early at the end.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

2) I don't think it would have been disastrous but problematic for at least two reasons; it would involve fighting Men (well I guess that also happened in the war of wrath, but still), and it may leave Mankind vulnerable to imposters claimind that they are deities, because Men would then trade the experience of defeating Sauron (mostly) on their own for the lesson that fate is forged by powers beyond their control... leaving them in a more helpless state. And yes I agree, disastrous seems to strong of a word.

[@Enerdhil]

Actually, your first question got me thinking about why it is that the Elves don't fade in Aman. We know for a fact that the Undying Lands are Undying because those who are Undying dwell there, i.e. the lands themselves don't convey immortality to anyone, such as Hobbits, Dwarves, and Men. So how is it that Elves receive physical immortality and stop fading? To me that means there has to be a special power in Aman that keeps the Elves from fading. Even though Aman was created out of the depths of the Belegaer, it was still a part of Melkor's Ring, so some kind of cleansing by Eru must have been necessary for the Elves to stop fading. While Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan bore their Rings of Power, their realms were all kept from fading. This tells me that there is something on an unseen spiritual level that stops the fading. The confusing part is that Sauron's power and Eru's power have this in common.🤔

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil I think a simpler solution is that Valinor, being the home of the Valar and Maiar, makes the difference. If Melkor can corrupt the world then the other Ainur should be able to do the opposite to at least some degree.

[@jasperwalther]

Because of the corruption of Melkor the body of elves would die. Melkor corrupter all Twingo’s in middle earth.Valinor was free of corruption and in my mind the bodily corruption of Melkor could be healed or at least halted in such a way that their bodies would not die. Making valinor the undying lands for elves only.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

Brilliant! Been waiting for this. Melkor/ Morgoth is an extremely fascinating character.

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Well met Mellon! Keep up the great work! BTW he told me his name was Melkor. Hurin was right, he is craven and a liar! P.S.Ecthelion!!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Always a pleasure to see you in the comments! And yes - I don't know that I'd believe anything a certain Vala says about himself, up to and including his name!

[@fangsabre]

It's so interesting that Melkor originally seems to be kindof a Loki figure, someone who throws a little chaos into the mix to make things fresh, or that because he is great and powerful in so many ways he has perspectives on things that are outside the box for his valar siblings. I wonder if his eventual degradation into a being basically of pure spite is because of a lack of recognition from his peers and Illuvitar in the way he wants, or is it because he loathes to share that recognition with others. And honestly, I think the greatest single influence Illuvitar had was to tell Melkor that nothing he could do didnt come from illuvitar. From Melkors perspective, is that basically saying that he could never attain the recognition that he wanted from Illuvitar, that nothing he could do would be good enough? Maybe I'm pathologizing him a bit too much but I could see that sortof realization, maybe from Illuvitars perspective just breaking the truth to Melkor about the secret flame, could turn someone from a Loki into a Lucifer

[@ghostdreamer7272]

I agree, I really liked that end part of the discussion. Got me thinking when Melkor truly changed for the worse. His intentions definitely became more egocentric and malicious while he was still playing more of a Loki role, but he didn’t really act purely on that until the awakening of the Elves I think, with abducting/harming/twisting some of them. That’s when he crossed the line in action, not just in thought. But it does beg the question why Eru created Melkor like this in the first place, not create a bigger distinction between mischief and malice in Melkor’s mind? Why make Melkor crave some he’ll never have?

[@jpbjoel]

This is a wonderful collaboration, made better by the balanced expertise of both parties. Thanks to you both.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you, Joel! Really enjoyed getting to talk to a fellow scholar.

[@sayagarapan1686]

Oh my gumbo... Only the TOP TWO Tolkien talents on the planet doing a discussion! **skwee** **faint** **opens an eye** Guess which one of the two of you two are my top two favorites? Now guess which one of you two is the other favorite? Steven! Stop it, Steven! You can't count yourself twice! I LOVE this discussion! You two have enormous substance! I have thoughts on all of these matters, but today all you get is... **skwee** ...

[@eluthiccgol4715]

I shall join you in joyous skweeing.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you for the skwees, my friend! If I have to battle with anyone for your loyalties I would rather it be with Mr. Book than anyone else. Truly a formidable talent.

[@sayagarapan1686]

@@GirlNextGondor Oh, there's no competition at all. You are my definite favorite. So is he. :P

[@mypeeps1965]

I would pay good money for a regular deep from both of you. This is not left field BS, but insightful, thoughtful conversation and in my opinion, one of the best youtube broadcasts in years! I would like to see this continue, PLEASE! You both compliment each other so well and you're NOT trying to sell Crap, just the opposite, thought-provoking conversation on a passionate subject manner. Tell me where and when and I'll show up and pay for it! I'm sick of the comic book Tolkien channels on youtube, I want more and I will gladly pay for it and sponsor those who cannot. #community.

[@TheRedBook]

Is this the time to plug my Patreon? 😅 . Appreciate such positivity here and I don't think you'll need to convince us through payment to chat again. It won't be the last collaboration!

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Like Steven said, they both have Patreons that help support their channel. Probably the best way to promote the non-Amazon Tolkien content we want to see and help these guys out with equipment and editing software costs.

[@singingunbound9705]

My absolute dream team. And art by the lovely Pete Amechree too. Fantastic.

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Agreed! And Pete is one of my favorite artists as well! His pieces are so unique - I'm glad Lexi and Steven show his work often. 🙂

[@KAM1138a]

Excellent Discussion. Melkor/Morgoth is fascinating to consider. You mentioned Hurin's debate. That scene I find to be the most terrifying of all involving Morgoth. When he says "Sit now there..." The inevitability of that--that no matter how defiant Hurin was, he WOULD sit there and WOULD suffer Morgoth's curse. Chilling.

[@skatemetrix]

Eru is "God". The way I see it Eru knows everything and every possibility, nothing can surprise Eru otherwise he would not be omniscient. Now the Valar are the direct expressions of Eru's thought and represent both material possibilities and various virtues good and bad. Thus Melkor being predisposed to pride, ambition and evil will become the ultimate evil and in doing so this creates good: the good being in contrast and in opposition to the evil. In the first theme it was pure and all material elements that would be created by the first theme would have a source of good. In the second theme Melkor rebelled utterly and he seemingly won- this marred everything and thus all material things would have a source of evil. In the third theme Melkor goes to even greater lengths to rebel but his discord is co-opted by Eru and thus all evil will wither away in the end and a greater good will emerge, or at least a new good will emerge. Thus Eru brought in good and evil to the world and brought in the necessity of evil in order to define the good. So Eru knew exactly what was going to happen, he had to for otherwise Melkor would have won! Bear in mind that Melkor turned to ultimate evil before Arda came into existence: he chose discord and to disrupt and destroy everything his brethren were doing/singing/music-making. I'm pretty sure that if Ainur could kill each other then Melkor would have turned to murder to ensure his discord triumphed and to ensure he became supreme. Melkor had already shown his true colours long before Arda emerged, however he did repent before Eru and it was almost genuine if it were not for his ambition, his fear, his self-conceit and his need for secrecy. If Melkor had not repented or made some kind of effort to redeem himself then Eru would not have permitted Melkor to descend to Arda. It should be noted that the Children of Illuvatar are a separate theme which the Ainur had no part in; the Children of Illuvatar are not the third theme. Which is why the Ainur knew so little about the Children because they had not created them. But since the Children were a part of Illuvatar's thought and also made of the very same elements which Melkor had marred then the Children would have a source of both good and evil. As for free will it only works due to uncertainty. You don't know what's coming up ahead so you make decisions, a lot of them determined already but as long as there is will power there is the capacity to choose something completely different. And yes the universe is utterly deterministic, so choice is the option between varying deterministic outcomes. Also if you take away free will you take away self-awareness: because self-awareness is choosing to perceive both the outside world and your own self, one can choose to see as much or as little of the outer world and your own self as you so wish.

[@timhiker5512]

Just started watching this video and a question popped to mind. Do we have a sense as to how long the War for the Sake of the Elves was? Also did the Valar play much of a role in the War of Wrath?

[@GirlNextGondor]

I always get the sense that everything that happened between the Valar before the Elves were directly involved, was related to them afterward through extremely simplified metaphors. Given some of Tolkien's pondering on just how long it took the Eldar to complete the journey, I suspect it took the Valar a geologically significant amount of time to overpower Melkor. But to my knowledge there's no canonical estimate.

[@waltonsmith7210]

What a brilliant, intellectually stimulating conversation between two of my favorite youtubers. I see you have some sympathy for the Devil. Morgoth could be said to be a man of wealth. Taste? Not so much. I dont think Eru knew Melkor would go quite as extremely bad as he did when he created him, but the potential for evil seems like a necessary condition of an independent free will. I agree Melkor was always meant to be a wildcard that shakes things up to prevent existence from being too static. It seems like what Eru is interested in more than anything is telling a good story. Thats more important than the individual well being of the individual free willed agents that exist within creation. Presumably itll all make sense when the grand plan comes to fruition. You can blame Illuvatar, and in a sense it IS his fault, inescapably but that's also our limited human perspective. I cant imagine Tolkien writing it any other way. After all, real life sucks. A person who believes in a benevolent creator God in the real world has to deal with that. So it's true to life that middle earth would have the same dilemma. I think Illuvatar is very majestic and well written. I think Tolkien wrote a fictional creator God better than just about anyone I know. I agree he's not exactly a one to one representation of Yahweh. He's not quite as mean lol.

[@BlankEmporium]

"Intellectually stimulating" pompous much?

[@grassblock7668]

As a Christian I never really thought about the Eru-Melkor situation as a problem for me or my religion, I totally agree about how Eru is a writer more than anything, and writers can be cruel (i'm a writer myself!). They can set things up to be all happy and then make them fall into ruin, they could make it look like all hope is lost and then make the good guys win.

[@lukasbauer8783]

​@@grassblock7668If your characters were actually living, feeling, thinking and suffering beings, you too would be a monster deserving to be destroyed, just like Eru.

[@grassblock7668]

@@lukasbauer8783 well yes, only that in Eru's case he's a writer in-universe

[@lukasbauer8783]

Tolkien does a good Job writing a massively sanitized Version of a supposedly benevolent christian creator deity. Outside that extremely narrow Parameters their are plenty of radically different possible creator deities and plenty of authors have done a great Job exploring those. Exploring religions other than just varieties of Christianity is a good starting point for broadening one's horizons.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

What a treat. The pair of you are great to listen too. I am currently rereading The Road to Middle Earth, by Tom Shippey. Today it was the nature of evil I read, the difference between Boethian and Manichaean evil and how the professor tried to make room for both views without deciding which was true. I personally do not see utter destruction as the ultimate fate for Morgoth, who is after all as much a child of Eru as we men. Rather, he shall become a new and fitting part of the music in Arda reshaped, after somehow realising. That as he was told everything he does becomes part of Eros plan, and after learning to enjoy his role in the music. The tragic themes of Turin will somehow blend the dissonance to beauty, the prophesied doom. Thanks both of you and keep up the good work.

[@GirlNextGondor]

It may be heretical but I incline to this view too... in Arda Remade, surely it would still be an unspeakable tragedy to have wasted all that potential. Road to Middle Earth is justly renowned and the follow up, Jrr Tolkien: Author of the Century, is also worth a look! Happy reading 😊

[@freshhands9461]

You Two complement each other really well! I am very happy to have stumbled upon two new channels at the same time :) Nice thoughts, nice talk...can't wait for more.

[@agatainventio9464]

I am binging all of your videos and they’re fantastic 👏 pls never stop I need to know your takes on all Tolkien lore

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Great discussion! Thanks!

[@tornadomuchacho]

Solid Podcast idea, love both of your channels and the two of you together are solid

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad to hear you enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to a chance to do it again!

[@nikolapavlovicsova5010]

You are not a famous Amazon Tolkien influencer, I love you GirlNextGondor :D Great video as always!

[@DavetheNord]

Great stuff, can't wait for the next episode. Thanks guys! 😁

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!

[@douglasharley2440]

the two *masters* together in one video! this was like spending a month of sundays in elrond's hall of fire...

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Woohoo! Have been waiting for this!

[@ladyfantastic765]

"...nasty Morgoth juice." hahahaha!!!! great convo to listen in on!

[@michaelman957]

34:02 "Yeah, no, it's not... Imma punch you now." Now my headcanon for how Manwe confronted Morgoth.

[@geir8849]

You are always able to reflect on these topics in a way I would like to do, but never could. You are special:)

[@GirlNextGondor]

I appreciate that! Though for my part I will say that it's much easier to push an argument further or uncover new insights when I'm responding to the ideas of others, whether a question in the comments, a video or article, or (in this case) a quality discussion partner.

[@geir8849]

@@GirlNextGondor Of course Red Book is great. I watched some of videos too, and really liked his video about the Mouth of Sauron. I still think you deserve praise for your level of reflection, and I feel you are able to unlock a deeper understanding of Tolkien, and watching your videos stimulated me to go out and purchace a new copy of the Silmarillion! So take it on board:)

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

Great conversation 🥰. I had a few brand new insights thanks though this video!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad to hear it! I always come away from conversations with others with new perspectives. It's refreshing to get to talk to someone else instead of being stuck with just my thoughts once in a while.

[@lsvids595]

As someone who believes in God and free will, I have thought that God being outside of space and time meant he could see the ways things end up based on every small choices. He knows how it will end up before we even do it but still have free will. Super well said from the red book

[@TheInkblot101]

Yes please revisit!!! Love the mythic comparisons especially

[@GirlNextGondor]

For sure something we'll touch on next time!

[@beatleblev]

That was awesome! Thoughts from the top down: 1. As a believer, I would not 1:1 equate the Abrahamic God with Eru although they hold the same position in their respective realities. The LORD is more DIY than than Eru Ilúvatar. Eru sends in the Ainur. The LORD sends his Son. We don't have an equivalent to Elves here; so no correlation there. I view God much as Steven describes Eru as outside of time. We can't really fathom the view from outside time as we are stuck inside it and also because spacetime appears infinite to us from the inside. Perhaps God sees at the quantum level where everything is probability in motion. You know where everything ends up when God measures it that way, but when God looks at his Children, God sees their infinite possibilities of who they could be and chooses to see them as they will be in eternity. As for Eru, He tells Melkor and Co. what he is getting out of all of this Ea business. Surprises. Did you not think Eru included Himself in the creation of things more wonderful than intended? 2. I look at Choice/Free Will as the alternative hypothesis as opposed to the null from Mathematical Fabrication class. If there are two possibilities (and many times there are many more than that), then it is inevitable that they will both be chosen at some point in an infinite Ea. One is either sailing with the Theme or rowing against it. The decisions we make for good or ill determine if we are sailors or rowers. Rowing all the time is rough. It can take the Life right out of you.. Just as Melkor, He who arises in might and falls into nothing. 3. I think the combination of the egos of Feanor and Melkor would be too much for Arda to bear and a singularity would be created the moment they clasped their hands in union. Maybe this happened in one reality that became Lovecraft's Mythos. Oops. 4. Fantastic job Steven and Lexi! Thanks for having a great conversation

[@tominiowa2513]

The Messiah should not be compared to anything in Tolkien, since He (according to Christianity) arrives 2 ages after Tolkien leaves off.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Another question that maybe we should consider next time is the degree to which Tolkien was playing with his conceit that these legends were a product of multiple mostly-Elven histories and accounts, filtered through millennia of tradition and translation. Instead of looking at the Ainulindale as a true and reliable account, if we look at it as 'a translation of some version of what the Elves told Men that the Valar told them,' with all that entails, it may end up telling us more about Elven priorities and motivations than about Middle-earth's 'genuine' theology.

[@beatleblev]

@@GirlNextGondor The Frame tale conceit is the secret sauce in the Legendarium. It allows for in-story retcons to evolve the Legendarium in an analogous way to our evolving history as archaeologists continue to investigate our past. Upon thinking about it, Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish, has to be heavily influenced by Elrond, Aragorn, Arwen, Glorfindel (?), the songs of Daeron and Maglor (at least their Greatest Hits), and, when he could be bothered, Gandalf. There is a lot of off-screen travel time for inquisitive hobbits to ask questions of their semi-bored immortal traveling companions. How many juicy tidbits can one get out of Gandalf the soon to be Olorin again while traveling? I think of the Ainulindale as the Genesis Creation song, "Amazing Grace" and the "Shema Yisrael" rolled into one, of the Elves. There is a Numenorean version; it's ubiquitous among the Elves and the Faithful. On the one hand you would think that the time from the Ainulindale to the beginning of the First Age would be mythic. On the other hand, there are still a few beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age to give first or second hand accounts of the major events in the story. That might make an interesting speculative discussion.

[@neant2046]

Start a new plan, get fired up about it, pursue it really hard for about 30 seconds, and then say: "That's not working, I'm bored now!" - ahh, the pain of my whole life in one sentence :D I really enjoyed this video, I hope you guys collaborate again soon!

[@GirlNextGondor]

This is THE most relatable thing about Morgoth for me, and also why I find Sauron so much more imposing than him 😂

[@squashedeyeball]

Here it is! Two legends together. "...And Melkor caressed his imaginary goatee in content, while reading the subject of the dissuccssion. He lit a Marlboro Red and gave a signal for his feline thanes to climb on lap. Then he pressed play".

[@GirlNextGondor]

🤣 I would hope that somewhere in the Void Morgoth and his felines are listening with smugness

[@squashedeyeball]

@@GirlNextGondor With smugness indeed :) but also with awe, due to the extents of your knowledge which are wider and deeper than their own

[@grassblock7668]

@@GirlNextGondor The scrapped idea of a character called Telvido "prince of cats" could also be there in the Void as something that never really got to exist, and that's where Melkor gets his cats from!

[@DorkLords]

Great conversation!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!

[@pgrigg]

Tolkein was in The Inklings with C.S. Lewis, and though they didn't agree on everything, they did both create worlds with "gods" of various sorts. C.S. Lewis has something to say about Free Will and Omnipotence ("Maleldiel" in his world) co-existing in his book Perelandra, the second book of his space trilogy. In that case, Maleldiel would have a plan, his creature could exert free will and change or ruin that plan, but then Maleldiel would incorporate that into a new plan that would go deeper. I like that idea.

[@earlwajenberg733]

Excellent discussion. And Red Book's proposal for the reconciliation of foreknowledge and free will happens to be the same answer put forward by the Christian philosopher Boethius in "The Consolation of Philosophy." It was C. S. Lewis's go-to argument on the subject in all his corpus.

[@estherandreasen366]

This is really interesting! I'll have to listen to it a few times to be able to really understand it.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you 🥰 I think it gave us both food for thought and I'm excited for round 2!

[@estherandreasen366]

@@GirlNextGondor ooh, there's a round 2????

[@grassblock7668]

And for some reason I had my hopes up for this to be a 20 minutes long video at last, then I remembered it's about Morgoth and went to grab some snacks. Gotta love how one single character can be talked about for so darn long! Really goes to show how intricate and complex Tolkien's work is.

[@milosstevanovic4117]

Please, do this kind of video about Eru Ilúvatar. Thank you

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

Nice work thanks

[@Enerdhil]

Lexi, I am not sure that the Valar we're asking Eru to destroy Numenor. I think they just wanted him to dispose of the Numenorians who were on or near Aman. I think Eru decided to destroy the island because it was totally corrupt and he knew that almost all the Faithful were going to be able to flee to Middle Earth. It kind of reminds me of Lot and his people fleeing from Sodom and Gomorrah as God completely destroyed the two cities and killed everyone within them.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks lexi and Steven.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Any time, Shane!

[@shanenolan8252]

@@GirlNextGondor thanks, enjoy your weekend. , if possible with your little gondoreans . ( kids . Kidding)

[@Crafty_Spirit]

29:10 Lexi, I thought about a third category of bad things happening to Túrin: strange accidents. How do you interpret the misfortune that Beleg would slightly cut Túrin with Anglachel? I think on my first read I attributed it to the evil nature of the sword, but I don't really have an opinion on this strange mishap 😅 You could easily sell this episode as a win for Morgoth's propaganda but he didn't convince me; I fear that I associate this event with the likes of Angrist breaking at a critical moment or how the Ring was found by Bilbo. Is Eru behind this? Why would he want such a horrible outcome?

[@GirlNextGondor]

I see three possibilities for this and they could all be true at the same time: ~Eol's malice in Anglachel made it 'cursed' - since Eol made the blade he'd be able to imbue it with a tendency or intent, and Eol resents both Men and Thingol. ~Morgoth is weighing the scales of causality: maybe the rain was extra slippery, the footing extra poor, Turin's mind haunted with extra nasty dreams. He should have been capable of some of these as he imbued Arda with his will. ~Beleg's death is actually the best-case scenario, given the progression of the story so far, so Eru either doesn't prevent it or actively includes it in his plan. (Interesting to consider what the story would have looked like if Beleg had succeeded in rescuing Turin - would they have returned to Menegroth? Gone on to Nargothrond? Would Turin want to return to Amon Rudh and take revenge on Mim? I feel like all of these have potential for tragedy....)

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@GirlNextGondor Thanks Lexi, you are my favourite girl from Gondor, highly esteemed Tolkien commentor, and the most hilarious one at that. Haha I guess you could construe the possibility of multiple influences converging such that Eru and Melkor can work together

[@jamiecampbell8855]

Great to see a discussion of the significance of men. People obsses on the role of the elves; however, it should be seen in the context of the fact that they are indeed the two kindreds. Each having significant roles to play. Even examining the three great takes of the first age: The Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, and The Fall of Gondolin, men play a pivotal role in each. The two kindreds were meant to complement each other.

[@machatero1]

Amazing!

[@Enerdhil]

I think Steven is right when he points out how petty Melkor was to pour all his malice into one family. It got me thinking about the Book of Esther in the Bible and what Haman tried to do to Mordecai. Haman was a top advisor to the king and Mordecai was just a Jew who bugged him. He risked and lost everything because of his desire for revenge on one insignificant person, whose opinion of him frankly did not matter.. Clearly, he would have been better off just letting Mordecai say his piece.

[@hodgrix]

This was so fun!! RE rebellion personally I do think that it was inevitable that Melkor would rebel as he was created with the inherent DESIRE to create, and nonetheless NO opportunity to create whatsoever as told by Eru. So I do blame Eru and I don't think it was intentional. Rather I think Melkor represents passion. Imo passion is the primal chaos of the universe within us and maybe that was something Eru himself was afraid of. He thought he could manage it by simply giving Melkor the most authority but it failed as the only thing Melkor wanted to do was create and yet couldn't. Maybe this is a bit head-canony but to me this works for my psychology of it lol

[@Enerdhil]

I am not sure I agree with Steven that the Valar should never have brought the Elves to Aman. The reason I say this is because what the Elves of Aman learned from living in the Undying Lands in the light of Laurelin and Telperion was what made them who they were once they returned to Middle Earth. I think this was Eru's plan to counter Melkor's destruction of the Two Lamps and Almaren. I think that the Valar might have been much closer to where the Elves Awoke had Almaren not been destroyed. It is just my theory.

[@TheRedBook]

I should have clarified it wasn't just my opinion that it was a mistake but Tolkien writes that it was a mistake as well and was not the original plan. It was done through anxiety and fear of Melkor but ended up diminishing both Elves and Men because of it.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook So explain to us what was supposed to happen. A complete race of Elves who never pass beyond the skills and lore of the Avari? What happens to all those stories we love in the First Age? Surely, you don't believe they would happen anyway. Would the Elves be unified as one large super power and rule Middle Earth with compassion? Just tell me what the Valar were supposed to do. There was never going to be a solution to the Melkor problem no matter what happened. What would the unenlightened Elves have done against him?

[@TheRedBook]

@@Enerdhil That's the problem, you are talking about bringing the Elves to Aman AND the Melkor problem. The Valar brought the Elves to Aman while they held Melkor captive. They also fled Middle-earth to Aman before Elves had even awoken - leaving Elves to wake up in a dangerous world. Their first problem was fleeing Middle-earth too soon, the second was not properly dealing with Melkor, the third was bringing Elves to Aman too soon. Each of the Valar's large mistakes was a consequence of a previous error. All starting from abandoning Middle-earth too soon, then bringing Elves to Aman too soon - sundering them and leaving them as enlightened and unenlightened Elves against a free roaming Melkor. I'm not Tolkien, but if he says it was a mistake to bring the Elves to Aman, I'm going to trust that he is right in that case.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Thank you for the explanation. I always believed the problem started with the destruction of Almaren, but I never thought at all about the Valar's decision to create Aman to dwell in. I would absolutely agree that they should have tried to "hold their ground" so to say. I think they then would have been close to where the Elves Awoke and maybe would have gotten to them before Melkor did and then maybe there is no race of orcs. I too have no idea what Tolkien thought the Valar should have done, but I am sure he was right. I just wish he had told us.😞

[@TheRedBook]

@@Enerdhil I think your explanation is what points to it all becoming part of a bigger plan anyway. Tying in with Eru's original words to Melkor. Even though the Valar messed up, their intentions were good, and even though Melkor continued to mess things up - his intentions were bad. His actions just get incorporated into the plan and good comes from it in the end. It's why you wonder what about the First Age heroes and good things that came from the Valar's mistakes in the first place. It would not change what the original plan was but we got to see the results of goodness that came from the strife anyway.

[@stevemcleroy3947]

Where can I find biographies of you two? Who you are, education, how did you came to such in depth interest? What are you theological backgrounds. I like to understand people and gondor girl say a lot of interesting things. Thank you guys for the time you put in.

[@xaviermontesdeoca2440]

oh shit, this one is something to hear, amazing

[@strocau]

Thank you both a lot! Sorry, I still haven't managed to show you my drawing of Ainlulindale that I spoke about under one of the previous videos. Here is it - ibb.co/YPZ21vw There's also one with the Mahanaxar, I remember that you once told that there's not enough pictures of it - ibb.co/p0hBvfX They are all from the series on Morgoth, there are 8 in general. Still haven't uploaded them anywhere yet.

[@ScaricoOleoso]

I wonder if, if the Valar had waited longer to go after Morgoth in the War of Wrath (a couple ages later, whatever), they would rip open Angband and find either a withered Morgoth corpse and a pair of Silmarils or no body at all, him having diffused entirely into the earth. 🤔

[@larsdejong7396]

An hour of deep in geek discussion. You do know how to keep us hooked on. 👌:)

[@GirlNextGondor]

We aim to please 😁

[@jimbombadill]

its the discord that confuses me a bit...because Eru states that Melkor cant do anything that hasnt its sorce in him, so all the evil Melkor do and puts into the world is within the plan and creation of Eru?

[@TheRedBook]

Kind of. You'll notice that when Melkor attempts to hijack the music and lead it, Eru stops it then doesn't dispose or disregard what Melkor made, he incorporates it into the next theme and it ends up creating wonders that even Melkor couldn't have imagined. Basically, no matter how much he kicks and screams, all of Melkor's actions will lead to greater good in the end - even if it's through hardship and corruption. He can't overrule Eru or alter the largest of plans.

[@jimbombadill]

@@TheRedBook kind of nice to see that Tolkien went beyond the classic Good vs Evil, being the christian that he was.

[@TheRedBook]

@@jimbombadill One thing I like about Tolkien's writings of evil is that there is usually a fall, a reason that they became that way. Most of the figures have really interesting motives and a path that led them to evil.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'd throw in the observation that apparently the first attempt at countering the discord was joyous (or maybe humorous?) based on Eru smiling as he adjusted. Melkor overcame that theme too, and his discord was finally integrated in the Third Theme... but the Third Theme was sad (Eru wept introducing it). So the Discord can be resolved - but at the cost of pain

[@jimbombadill]

@@GirlNextGondor one could argue that at the bottom all "evil" is the fault of Eru since he basicly created everything or the "instruments that sang the creation... Might be connected to christian thoughts of his own....god created man and he saw humans do plenty of shit in his lifetime. Buddhism teachings says the world is created out of Desirée(and constantly recreated) but the desire is also the source of suffering. .. a team that you cowered in your excellent videos.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

You should look into St. Thomas Aquinas’ Compatiblism, which is how Tolkien’s Catholicism reconciles free will with God’s omniscience.

[@MrBernardthecow]

I hear Sauron's Lidless Eyescream van is doing the rounds again Steven. (18min ish)

[@TheRedBook]

It haunts me. It's always round here!

[@MrBernardthecow]

@@TheRedBook you should try and buy a magnum from the WitchKing.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Frosty, sugary evil on a stick, only 2.99

[@MrBernardthecow]

@@GirlNextGondor or maybe a Mr Whippy with a Mordor Flake in it.

[@Vilegorico]

This is great

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

I just found the red book nice work also

[@jedsithor]

I love Tolkien's world but I grew up a Star Wars geek, thus I equate everything in fiction and indeed in life to Star Wars (pre Disney because you know...fuck the sequels lol). There's a common analogy made whereby Sauron is said to be Darth Vader whereas Morgoth is Palpatine but I fundamentally disagree. If we're going to make the comparison (and I am since I brought it up) then Vader is more closely tied to the Witch King and Sauron is Palpatine. But in that scenario, what is Morgoth? Well, Morgoth/Melkor is the Dark Side itself. Sauron was a shadow from the east but Morgoth is the shadow that shrouds all light. Morgoth/Melkor is ultimate darkness and despair. He's not just the devil, he's hell itself. And while Tolkien does have an ultimate fate in mind for Morgoth, i.e good ultimately triumphs over evil, I think the point of beings like Morgoth and Sauron isn't to create evils that are destined to lose, it's to expose the evils within the hearts of ordinary people and challenge them to overcome that evil. The fact that Frodo, when it counts most, having carried the burden for so long, ultimately fails and gives in to the Ring says all there is to say about evil. But of course in that moment, Gollum, also consumed by the lure of the Ring, shows that in the end, evil will destroy itself. To paraphrase the rebooted Battlestar Galactica, it's not about surviving, it's about being worthy to live. Morgoth is the ultimate embodiment of evil, of jealousy, of uncontrolled desire and in the end, that kind of evil will eat itself.

[@tominiowa2513]

Ungoliant is the evil that eats itself.

[@jedsithor]

@@tominiowa2513 I meant figuratively rather than literally. Morgoth has a habit of dooming himself lol

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'm acquainted with star wars but hardly an expert... but I think that makes sense! Especially after that shift to becoming "THE Morgoth," like he's an energy or a thing more than a personality.

[@GirlNextGondor]

The animosity between Morgoth and Ungoliant (something that Sauron and Shelob riff on ages later) is definitely something I want to explore.

[@zeusnitch]

Collaboration!! Rohan heard the call

[@GirlNextGondor]

Steven and I finally drawing swords together 😆

[@robingile4301]

Another collaboration would be welcome.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Would definitely enjoy that 😁

[@mrmeowmeow710]

One big thumbs up loved it

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!! 😸

[@charleslathrop9743]

A creator with absolute unlimited foreknowledge is responsible for everything, and free will is an illusion. In order for free will to exist the creator by necessity cannot have absolute unlimited foreknowledge.

[@whyukraine]

What about LessGoth?

[@GirlNextGondor]

Oof, well played. 😅

[@bigsarge2085]

👍

[@skatemetrix]

If Morgoth is so riddled with pride, corruption and evil what does that say of Eru Illuvatar? Since all Ainur proceed from Illuvatar's thought it must mean that Illuvatar has pride and corruption and evil as well which is part of his essence. But if Illuvatar is all-good is he above morality, or has he mastered good and evil? Or is he like Tom Bombadil- he cannot be corrupted or turned to evil? And since Illuvatar knew exactly what was coming then he purposefully brought Melkor/Morgoth into existence! Speaking of domination... Illuvatar dominates all but is considered all-good...

[@tominiowa2513]

Christianity has been struggling with that question for a couple of thousand years now.

[@Enerdhil]

@Sasquatch Farms I agree with most of what you posted. Free will is likely the reason evil came into existence.

[@petras8385]

Had no idea Melkor was the creator of discord and this is coming from a very avid user

[@GirlNextGondor]

They don't exactly publicize it. Good Eldar are supposed to use the Zoom of Mandos for their telecoms, but more and more people are turning to (the) Discord

[@petras8385]

@@GirlNextGondor Haha

[@jybrokenhearted]

So, while they were singing the world into into existence, Melkor was the coughing *EAT ME* guy.

[@connielewis3623]

People talk about Tolkien like it's soft compared to say, Game of Thrones but the Children of Húrin, (and the Wanderings) while lacking in graphic violence is genuinely one of the most disturbing books I've read purely in regards to what the villain does. I think about it every day. What a genuinely fucked up thing to do afdsadfdfs

[@GirlNextGondor]

Yes. CoH doesn't revel in dwelling on the horror or describe it lavishly, but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. Some would argue it actually enhances the effect.

[@connielewis3623]

@@GirlNextGondor yeah and there are scenes where quite literally nothing happens but the implications of what COULD have happened that just haunt me on a near daily basis the example that comes to my mind most is when Brodda rides by Morwen's house but decides against entering because he's a coward and scared of her but there are others too

[@buttlord4204]

I see the valar a bit like how some christian scholars saw the angels, as radiating directly out of god, including a full third of them that were somehow evil despite coming out of God, and christian gnostic ideas about god radiating out being as well. This notion, God raidating out into angels, many of which he casts out for imperfections, along with Melkor radiating out of Eru here, being allowed to do his evil, being told it serves him in the end... I think the concept is one of, that God and creation are reflctions of one another. That God him begins as imperfect,and in this radiation and splitting he finds the bad parts of himself, so he might cast them out Like, a constant or intermittent but repeating judgment happens over and over, evil works to complicate the world and increase its beauty, then is cast out, there is more growth, creation becomes more beautiful, and what is displeasing is again, cast out. That this process goes on and on until, in the end, something incredibly beautiful and also, wholly good and perfect is left. Or maybe, that point is never reached, maybe theres no cap and it goes on forever It really is not so far removed from some scholarly christian thought, not that of any extant church, but scholars, gnostics and such

[@anchuisneoir3973]

06:22 "an Emo phase"? I'd say it was more.....(You can finish the joke if you like)

[@GirlNextGondor]

Ah yes, Morgoth, and his lesser known sisters, Morska and Morsin....

[@Valdagast]

The insidious nature of evil in Tolkien reminds me of MacBeth: _I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er_ Melkor is given the chance to redeem himself, but at that point he has been so corrupted that turning back is more difficult than to just go on. It is very true psychologically. Melkor (and perhaps even more Sauron) is continuously telling himself that he is not evil - that all this is for the best. If he chooses redemption then he has to face up to the fact that all his actions have been for evil, not good. I think it's essential to Tolkien's theology that redemption is always possible. "For God all things are possible", even the redemption of someone as corrupt and fallen as Melkor. But he has to _want to_ get well. And that means realizing that he's sick. Which he is too proud to do. 50:18 So if we could just give Melkor some Adderall...

[@GirlNextGondor]

All the Valar are just different neurological conditions personified 🤣 After his run in with Fingolfin and the War of Wrath I really don't know WHAT it would take for the guy to realize this strategy really isn't working in his favor. Probably another Luthien-level intervention.

[@Valdagast]

@@GirlNextGondor If you want to explore this I recommend the book _Mistakes were made (but not by me),_ which is a book about cognitive dissonance. And I think Melkor had some industrial-strength cognitive dissonance going on.

[@Valdagast]

@@GirlNextGondor 1:09:24 "Speaking of evil corruptive forces, the KZbin algorithm likes to be appeased with likes and comments."

[@annafdd]

@@Valdagast Excellent book! One of my most influential reads!

[@annafdd]

How many Valar does it take to change a lightbulb? Well, the lighbulb has to *want* to change… Sums the first three ages up pretty well, I think.

[@donniekuzma9517]

If you have a question about how God works in the mind if Tolkien, you have to study Thomas Aquinas… it all makes so much more sense once you read into his works.. I’d say reading Tolkien without knowing Aquinas keeps you from seeing the whole story

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

Late to the party, but (far from being unorthodox from a Christian perspective) The Red Book's description of free will and God's relationship to time is really not that far off from the conventional Catholic outlook on the subject. The early sixth-century writer Boethius wrote a book called _The Consolation of Philosophy_ that deals with the subject extensively. (Also, love love *love* the sweater analogy for the relationship between a creator and their creation!)

[@dilahk95]

28:15 the Curse of the Children of Hurin a self fulfilling prophecy?

[@ryanmckeon1134]

RAD!!!

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Dripping with Morgoth Juice

[@natenichols9569]

Regarding omniscience vs free will, God can know what will happen, but if you step in and prevent any bad thing or bad decision, there is no free will. So He can offer guidance and advice and encouragement in order to move events toward an optimal outcome but one cannot choose to love and trust without free will. There's a big difference between your child saying they love you and a computer program.

[@DavidRoberts]

I see what you did there with the title :-) EDIT: hmm, I saw "On Morgoth" at one point, you may have tweaked.

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's the text on the thumbnail! Yes, an intentional homage. Gotta make it feel integrated for both audiences after all 😉

[@DavidRoberts]

@@GirlNextGondor 🤪 of course I didn't even look again to see it...

[@Amigo21189]

It's not that they're evil that makes a figure like Morgoth or Feanor such a great topic to discuss at length. It's that they _involve themselves in conflict_ and that makes them narratively important. By inserting themselves into the engine of the story they become a part of it, and their worldviews and emotions and goals and choices become things to explore as a component of the tale. Manwe is less interesting precisely because he is less involved - his ideas and opinions generally don't matter because they so rarely motivate any discernible action on his part - and that fact applies even more so to the other Valar that are present as little more than set-dressing on the world rather than movers and shakers inflicting changefulness upon the cosmos where we can see them doing it.

[@Cheattoe]

One day I will be the sweater

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

Re-watch lets do this lol

[@cernunnos_lives]

Tolkien needed at least another human lifetime to write more material. Including the story from Melkors point. A story that would flip all this upside down. A point that would've come about in the future during the last ages. Sympathy for the Devil.

[@annafdd]

The thing is, and it is sort of strange, but I have not come across in the Legendarium the idea that Eru is benevolent. Nobody worships him. (Do the Faithfuls? Or do they worship the Valar? I can’t remember.) But the weird thing is, for somebody who is supposed to be so devout, there is no religion in Middle Earth. No churches, no religious rites, no offerings, no sacrifices… the only organised religion we see is Sauron dragging the Numenoreans into performing human sacrifices for the glory of Morgoth, and I have this sneaking feeling that he just wanted to see how far he could push Men and being quite surprised by the results. Sauron is not fond of Men. He is offended with how the Elves friendzoned him, but Men? F*** those gullible idiots. So, I am not sure that Eru is the Father of Catholic faith. He is not even the Old Testament God, jealous and prone to fits of spite. He never demands worship. He is just… there. Doing his thing. Which makes it all the more shocking when he intervenes and destroys Numenor, throwing human sacrificing villains, Faithfuls, children, slaves, cats, dogs, horses and donkeys to the bottom of the sea (and MISSING the one Maia arguably most responsible). If it were not for the Akallabeth, I would really see Eru like amoral, or better still, outside the framework of morality. He cares about his music and that’s really it. He is a bit of an autistic God. (What makes this especially sad is the last desperate, miserable discussion between Maglor and Meadhros: who then can release us? Well, Illuvatar didn’t even notice that you had involved him in your jewellery robbery.)

[@istari0]

Actually, Eru Ilúvatar was actively worshipped in Númenór in the 1st part of its existence. Once the corruption got sufficiently far along, that fell away. But even then there's no mention of any elaborate organized religion.

[@Enerdhil]

I guess you never read or heard about the Prayer Festivals they had on Mt. Meneltarma in Numenor three times a year. Tar-Palantir reinstated those festivals. Basically, Tolkien hated allegory, so if he showed the peoples of Arda worshipping Eru, readers would have said that Eru was an allegory for the God of the Bible. He purposely downplayed open religious doctrine in his work, but sometimes you can see elements of the Grace of Eru in the Legendarium.

[@annafdd]

@@Enerdhil I did remember those, but I wasn’t sure they were centered around Eru or the Valar. It feels very ironic, doesn’t it? The Valar, not Eru, are responsible for creating Numenor and giving it to the Edain. But who do the Edain worship? the divine being that ends up annihilating them. Of course Tolkien had a good reason to avoid describing religious practices: because Eru is very much not the Triune God, it would feel sacrilegious to him. And maybe as a Catholic living in early 20th century England he was used to rites and ceremonies not being crucial to his day to day life: those he experienced were very much not rites of religion. I haven’t experienced directly any anti-Catholic prejudice, but even now, it’s there. Ask me how I feel about Guy Fawkes’ night, and I am a *lapsed* Catholic at that. Still, as somebody brought up in a Catholic country, this absence of churches, priests and prayers feels… odd. When there is any invocation or request for grace, it is usually Earendil, a Man, or Varda. It is true that one of the most touching moments of appeal to the divine is Fingon’s invocation to Manwë: “O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft…”. But Fingon had lived among the Valar. He knew them *personally*. I don’t know. It feels weird. Religion seems not to be the foundation of secular power: Kings are not divinely chosen nor anointed. It doesn’t even seem to be at the root of morality: there are no commandments. Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits and everybody else knows that killing and stealing are wrong without the need to be told (because, duh). I need to read the Letters, don’t I?

[@goyonman9655]

@@annafdd Prone to is a wrong adjectival clause in that sentence It suggests being acted upon. As opposed to beibg pure act

[@goyonman9655]

@@annafdd why do you think anyone (except a psychopath) would need to be told that killing is bad

[@markolukic7824]

When I was first reading LOTR and later Silmarilion a quarter of a centruy ago I didn't see most of Morgoths or Saurons actions as evil. Other characters said they were evil or did evil things but I saw little proof from my own local perspective. While Morgoth did have a tendency to behave in a way that can be described dickish Sauron on the other hand engaged in what could best be described simple geopolitics of Arda and the only reason he was labeled as evil was due to his previous master and being opposed to the side we were supposed to cheer for.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I do see the distinction there - Morgoth had more of a tendency to inflict suffering for its own sake while Sauron would have argued that he was simply using every means available to pursue his ends, just like he believed the Elves and Men and Valar were all doing. For Tolkien, I suspect the themes of domination, control, and the legitimacy of one's authority would determine the line between self-interest and true corruption or evil.

[@chrisp.9380]

I think Sauron had quite a lot of people tortured, which I'm not sure Gondor, Rohan, Lothlorien, or Rivendell were doing. So I would say they definately have more of a claim to being the good guys than Sauron. Not that any individual or group can be completely in the right at all times.

[@KarnKaul]

OMG both of you together!? *heavy breathing*

[@GirlNextGondor]

🤣 get a paper bag to regulate oxygen flow, maybe lie down with a cool cloth over your eyes, it'll be okay!