Biblical Literalism: Jesus Hasn't Left the Galaxy

[@lanceawatt]

Quoting Carl Sagan: "The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, We will one day, Venture to the stars."

[@tastybrain]

That background is hypnotizing.

[@Infidelio]

I was sad to see that Bishop Spong died. I am an atheist but he is one religious leader I would have loved to meet.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Viracocha711 Given that I've read ALL of Spong's books, taught classes on Spong's work, done academic papers on Spong's work I'd say mission accomplished. I may well have been referring to someone else in the description, if so I apologize. I do see those who demand that there is no God in the conversation, and while I'm fine with post-Christians and those who have doubts the arrogance of the confirmed athiests, who claim they KNOW There is no God is just as silly as fundementalism.

[@Volound]

i remember thinking about this.

[@MarmaladeINFP]

I love the image of Jesus still ascending, travelling through space looking for heaven.

[@Phelan666]

I'm glad there is a universe above the sky instead of a genie. Reality is way more awesome than human beings can imagine.

[@PookySan1]

very well put and thought out

[@village1diot]

Simply awesome.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

And one must ask which translation you view as without error, since there are significant differences. Many fundementalists claim King James is without error, which couldn't be more preposterous. There are hundreds of differences of meaning just between different KJV translations.

[@hlimkb]

when i c a child i know smile, that heaven to me.

[@ivlfounder]

@Viracocha711 I have read that the letter in question was written in 1757. According to the same source this letter could not have been address to Thomas Paine because he did not make the acquaintance of Franklin until the early 1770s.

[@ivlfounder]

@Viracocha711 I love how you throw the phrase "in the name of" in there. As though that's the only way there could be a connection.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder I have no idea what that meant. Are you saying you do not wish to give me your opinion on the question I asked? Honestly, out of all the discussions we could be having conserning John Spong's lecture I think my question is an easy one. You & I both know the answer it just seems only one of us is willing to talk about it.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder I apologize...You are correct about the letter. However, my overall point still stands. And my question to you "Why do you think Christians feel Atheist should be the most feared & mistrusted group in society?" What is it that Atheist have done in America for Christians to feel this way? Or is it a case of over reaction to a unfounded fear?

[@lanceawatt]

@LordSlag but the point 'm trying to make is if he doesn't use "passive" terms, the most fundementalists won't listen to him. Take Hitchens 4 example, articulate man using logic, reason to a fantastic degree. Fundementalists loath him, therefore won't pay attention to anything he says. And I do think his point was very clear- our understanding of the cosmos now begs us to view the world as it really is, rather than through scripture. He used an example from Sagan - galileo unessary to point.

[@gilraen789]

What a delight to see John Shelby Spong in such good form. He is this atheist's favourite Christian.

[@BillAngelos]

its far easier for people to say what atheists think than for them to actually argue what we really say, or even bother to prove there is a god.

[@mykmmc]

you gotta love carl sagan.

[@MassLiberal1]

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'- Carl Sagan

[@lanceawatt]

@LordSlag I think his speech was good, to a degree at least. By shining light on misaprehensions of fundementalist understanding of the Bible, as a man of his position perhaps he can do a greater job at showing fundementalists a more realistic view of our world than any scientist, who seem to be disliked and distrusted. Of course he still tries endorse a religious viewpoint, and although a man of principle, I support this video, fundementalism is challenged as well as it could be.

[@CosmopolitanNo1]

@truvelocity: What an extraordinary beautiful statement. Wonderful. Thank you!

[@ivlfounder]

@olekstom Was it the one about forgiveness?

[@Viracocha711]

EXACTLY! Thumbs up!!

[@MassLiberal1]

(cont.) A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.- Sagan

[@ivlfounder]

"I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For, without the belief of a Providence that takes cognisance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it...

[@AndreTessmann]

read the Urantia Papers for the whole story.

[@mclanton70]

@MrAtheist1984 Well put, indeed. I'm going to use this one.

[@TheSlush]

Preach, Bishop!

[@truvelocity]

Because of the internet, children will grow up with the task of letting go of resentment toward their parents, who loved their imaginary savior more than they loved them.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder It was without a ANY DOUBT written to Paine! Ben was trying to tell Paine not to publish The Age of Reason but he did it anyway. And for that reason Christians have been demonizing him ever since. Paine was a man well before his time. Basically what Ben was saying is educated men do not need religion but the masses do. I happen to be one of those few Americans that actually appreciate our history enough to read about it as much as possible.

[@himmura]

RIP Carl Sagan.

[@ivlfounder]

@Callmps It I was serious it would have been to harsh. Thankfully I was parodying someone elses claim.

[@ivlfounder]

@Viracocha711 Actually it's doubtful that this was written to Paine. It was almost surely written to an atheist.

[@oaktownmonkey]

@Atheistprimate couldn't agree more.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga Ah, I guess it's FAR easier to make up stuff and respond to that instead of what I really said. Of course ministers read from the Bible, they did NOT teach that it was literal truth, but that it was STORIES from which to derive lessons, things to THINK ABOUT instead of robot programming over which NO thought was allowed. Even today's more conservative denominations like the Baptists did not start off teaching Biblical inerrancy. The earliest Baptist churches taught very differently.

[@arshsingh1984]

@MrAtheist1984 This is one of the BEST comments I have ever read on KZbin! You, sir, have made my day, nay, week, nay, Year!

[@LordSlag]

@itsonlymepeople No, this priest says that Sagan said that, and he offers no proof that Sagan said that, nor do I believe that Sagan would make such a giant concession to religious ridiculousness in that fashion. This sky pilot is simply trying to paint Sagan with the brush of his religion now that the person he's stuffing words into the mouth of can no longer defend himself in death.

[@olekstom]

"Imagine no religion..."

[@Phelan666]

@drumlord420 No, actually. I haven't.

[@LordSlag]

@lanceawatt The point I'm trying to make is that terminology is irrelevant. Fundy's don't and won't listen to anyone or anything that threatens what they use to balm over their terror of death, regardless of the vocabulary employed. Our understanding of nature has been sufficient to obliterate every religion on the planet for over a century and a half now, yet faith shows no signs of going away any time soon. Galileo is central: If reason could convince the faithful, no faith would exist.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder I am not trying to discuss the relevance of religion I want to know from you, a Christian, why is it that Christians fear Atheist so much they must create lies & falsehoods about those of us who embrace the natural world & THIS LIFE rather than a supernatural world & the hope of an afterlife? You have to have an opinion on this, correct? I would love to hear it!

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder The evidence? I hope the "evidence" is not criticism of the Bible & open questioning of why people believe the Bible is true & in many if not most cases think it is literally the inerrant word of god...The same applies to all religions. If you would I would like to know what a believer thinks is why Atheist are the most feared & mistrusted group in America? What basis is there for such belief that ateist should be feared & not trusted more than ANY other group? PLEASE I am curious.

[@ivlfounder]

"so open minded their brains fall out." Someone thinks by stealing jokes from Archie Bunker that they're being clever.

[@kuroyama1]

this guy gets it although i doubt carl sagan said this i do believe this guy isnt as nutty as most religious people ive met have been

[@Anon11674]

@MarmaladeINFP He forgot to take that right at Pluto. He's taking the long way home. :P

[@HalfFullYeah]

Why would I need Jesus if I also have Confucius, Buddha, Socrates, Democritus, Worldwide Natives' relationship with Nature, myths from way down Prehistoric times, Love, Life, 1000's of others great human examples... Christians, open your heart to others' beliefs, because yours and theirs share the same roots... No Religions, just Humans. Cheers to all!

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Ricky103 And you can certainly believe that, others do, too. Trust me, God's big enough, She's not going to be shattered or offended or heart-broken that some believe that. I think the attitude that "I won't believe in anything I cannot see proof of" is to think, I feel arrogantly, that I personally or people in general are the repository of the greatest level of intelligence in all existance. That NOTHING can exist that we cannot fully grasp, understand, and prove. There's stuff beyond us

[@AbHeq]

@MrAtheist1984 well put

[@mysteryperson1976]

Einstein believed that God was the subtotal of the natural laws of the universe. That is not a god that you can disprove, but there can be debates over if that is "God." The concept of what "God" is has changed over the past thousands of years. The god concept has existed since at least the dawn of ancient civilization. I know that everyone would love it if everyone else thought the exact same way they did, but it is unrealistic. We should embrace diversity in thinking.

[@bradwatson7324]

I've got my first child due two months from now and I look forward to raising him/her free from theistic silliness. On Sunday mornings, we will go to the botanical gardens, sit under a tree, and admire a book of images from the Hubble telescope instead of attending a house of superstition. And I will teach my child that he/she is a noble being, not the wretch that christianity teaches.

[@Adeikov]

No self-respecting theist can hold on to literalism and also believe what science has discovered, the modern view of reality is incompatible with literalism. Only metaphor can extend the possibilities of theism.

[@7Annina]

@bradwatson7324 Not all religion is silliness. Not all religion is superstition. Some faiths are inclusive, thinking, learning, questioning, and brave. Religion can be yet another lens through which we can show our children the world - certainly not the only one. Religion can enhance the teaching of children to be "noble beings." Don't completely discount and belittle it. To do so is as hypocritical as those religious zealots who are self-righteous in their views.

[@DaithiDublin]

@PrisonerNumber9653 You're taking on everyone today! You're beliefs seem kinda weak but you defend them pretty strongly. I say weak because you seem to be saying that you believe the book that you derive your beliefs from isn't reliable enough to be believed. You can see where people are having a problem with you. It's an unrealistic position to defend. That's probably not doing Bishop Spong much favour either. Religion (however defined) doesn't have the right not to be offended.

[@ivlfounder]

@Viracocha711 Name the three top selling books about atheism.

[@psychoklown66]

If god was all-knowing... the all-seeing god... why didn't know what was going to happen when he created satan, adam and eve? If god did know and did it anyways... slightly sadistic... no?

[@ivlfounder]

@MrAtheist1984 Someone didn't read my other post where I explain I was parodying someone elses post.

[@GravDiga]

@PrisonerNumber9653 To follow the group is a herd instinct we have as humans.. we follow those who excite us.. who have an effect on us.. we follow their religion.. we follow them to their activity of choice.. we follow to associate with them. it is this instinct we have which effects us to follow religion.. it is this instinct that makes us believe the bible is true whether it was 100 years from now or 1900 years now this can be proven through observing history and our own behavior.. our.....

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Viracocha711 I don't believe that's true, but if it was, we'd have the RESPONSIBILITY, if we were acting ALONE, to change it, to start better churches, to WORK rather than sitting back and giving up. But that Spong's books are best-sellers, that more churches are accepting gay pastors and gay members, and many major denominations have open and affirming congregatoins and racial reconciliation ministries. You have to LOOK for good news, unfortunately, but I promise, it's there.

[@Leopoldo888]

@mutabrev If Jesus is not subject to the same physical constraints as ourselves, then Religions looses it's purpose.Jesus was sent as A MAN.To show us that "yes, we can". Some people are very comfort with the idea of a "cheating God".So "we have, free will..."but not too much, God changes the rules of the game at will:well, He owns us.So, Jesus suffered for our sins, but that's not completely true,'cause"he's not subject to the same physical constraints as ourselves..."(BTW, I'm a believer)

[@LordSlag]

@lanceawatt He doesn't do the things you claim he does. He "shines a light on fundamentalist misapprehensions" only in the most indirect, oblique way possible, in the softest possible terms, if he does so at all, which I do not agree that he does. If he was doing what you propose, he would have immediately started with Galileo and how stupid it was of the church to place him under lifelong house arrest for being correct. "...as well as it could be."..No, not even as well as my 12 YO cousin.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder I asked you twice & now a third time what is behind the reason most people in America, most Christians, think Atheist are the most feared & mistrusted goup in America society...Then I will answer your question. BTW-This feeling toward Atheist has been around long before Atheist authors came out writing books against religion in the past 5yrs or so.

[@mutabrev]

Where in the Bible does this geezer get the impression that Jesus is subject to the same physical constraints as ourselves? I think there is a place for this topic of discussion, but i wouldn't use Carl Sagan as my final authority.

[@RadarKat73080]

Life after death is as unlikely as sex after marriage!

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@DaithiDublin You cannot POSSIBLY find someone who thinks for themself, and promotes the idea of YOU thinking for yourself, more than Bishop Spong. I'd challenge you to actually read his work, A lot of non-believers or post-Christians who find his work brilliant. We're talking about a BISHOP, a man called to a lifetime of Christian ministry, teaching that the Bible is not literal truth (for instance, Mary was not a virgin) YOU show a closed mind towards faith and people of faith.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga The book isn't the point. The book doesn't prove anything. The faith is NOT about the book, the faith is about a relationship with God. The book was written by PEOPLE, some of it's brilliant, some beautiful, there's incredible truth and wisdom there, especially in the words of Christ. But it's NOT literal "word of God", it's NOT to be viewed in that way. It causes about as much damage as good, and those who use it as a weapon of hate have done vile insults to God.

[@pobanmanu]

Billions and billions LOL. Carl Sagan is immortal. Of course metaphorically.

[@madiovich]

@olekstom it would be chaos

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga Believing in the religion and in the LITERAL TRUTH OF ALL SCRIPTURE are two very, very different things. And please stop with this horsecrap of "do the research". I've been studying this stuff for several years. Feel free to disagree with my conclusions, but this hilarious slop of "do the research" as if I had no clue what I was talking about... well, my friend, I've DONE the research, more than you could begin to imagine.

[@ivlfounder]

"Biblical Literalism" A book that long and old with that many scribes and no poetry? what an impoverished reality.

[@jpc08109]

If the bible was a true book written by an all powerful ever living god, there certainly would be only one interpetation, and a little more proof of his existance that a silly book

[@Xeonophon]

ravings of a mad man

[@GravDiga]

@PrisonerNumber9653 Preachers never read the bible? and people never believed it? you are full of lies stop spamming the comment section with false information. P.S. you claimed that many people don't believe the bible as absolute truth yet most of them say they do.. AND you have given no evidence to back up your claims so.. they are not proven to anyone.

[@truvelocity]

@ivlfounder Old fashioned grandparents. (Whip! Whip!) You read those prayers... (Whip! Whip!) Ooooouuuuch! You read that bible! (Whack! Slap!) Stop, it hurts! I did it because God loves you and I'll be damned if my grandchildren go to hell for not believing in my God! True story all over the world.

[@Viracocha711]

@PrisonerNumber9653 Atheist try to stand up for the seperation of church & state not because we want religion destroyed but because we understand the IMPORTANCE! However, we are easily pushed aside as "ANGRY ATHEIST"...It will take huge numbers of "Spong" Christians or the so-called "Moderates" to change the current path we are on...I just don't see that happening. PLEASE talk me out of what I am saying if you can? I see BAD things ahead!

[@GravDiga]

...own behavior.. our own nature as human beings.. But.. what you are saying is that isn't true.. people didn't believed the bible they just preached it and followed the religion as if it was true BUT they didn't believe the bible to be literal truth even though..half my family believes it is true. you somehow must be right with no proof stated that.. when you say people never believed the bible to be literal truth until now. i want to know what information you have which proves for 1800 years

[@Viracocha711]

@PrisonerNumber9653 I know of no one "who stomp their feet and DEMAND not "I don't know if there's a God" but "there is DEFINATELY no God!" You are just trying to put words in my mouth & others...I guess in defense of a way of thinking you have emotional attachments to and you feel is under threat by those who question it or deny it. I would suggest you watch the entire lecture & Q&A with John Spong and HOPEFULLY you will take something away from it!

[@05KAR]

Here we go again... the feed for harping anti-theists and a waste of time. Also it`s quite funny how various heretic sects supports it. Personally i prefere the Greek, Roman, Egyptian mythology to the Jewish, but still it`s an interesting biblio.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Ricky103 First off there's a MASSIVE difference between "no evidence" and "no proof". I see evidence of God's greatness and love for us EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY. Do you not believe in love? Where is the PROOF it exists?

[@ivlfounder]

@Viracocha711 I think Mr. Franklin covered most of the bases. Of course the cold war couldn't have helped.

[@rllang01]

The earth is like the astrodome LOL

[@itsonlymepeople]

@LordSlag "This uneducated scam artist claims that when a great scientist speaks about religion he's 'mixing metaphors'" That's not what he said my friend. Watch it again from 4:08 - 4:12. He says of Sagan, "But he's correct. We're mixing our metaphors."

[@7eeeeeees]

Good game the bible torn apart by this guy.

[@GravDiga]

@TeslaGenius you have no proof just a book... that doesn't explain how it is possible but says it is possible.. that's all.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga Faith is a choice, there's nothing remotely like slavery. People NEVER believed that the Bible was literal truth. They viewed the STORIES there as just that...stories. They did NOT think it was a history book or science text. And it's always hilarious to hear people who've obviously NOT studied divinity and spent years debating the exact topics with ministers and seminarians say "do some research".

[@Viracocha711]

@PrisonerNumber9653 So, to see people like John Spong for me is such a breath of fresh air! Taking how special the concept of god or gods is to people I really would like to see Spong's vision be the norm! I can't stand the current America with how everyone is acting over this cultural center in NY & Gay Rights & trying to force evolution out of public schools, etc...We are headed down a VERY DARK ROAD! Continued...

[@Viracocha711]

@prismbeats1 You need to read why I asked the question I did...Atheist do not ASSUME anything! It is the believer who assumes many things with no proof. And that is perfectly fine until people try to shape public policy according to their beliefs! Not all Christians believe the same & America is only 80% Christian at the most. So, public policy shaped around Christian belief is what Atheist, some Christians & other people of differnt faith speak out against! Continued...

[@DaithiDublin]

What is this doing on FORA? Isn't FORA for people who think for themselves, not those who fall back on stone age philosophy? It's not difficult to find places where people dole out hocus-pocus like this as though it was real and true. Giving them time on FORA gives them a gloss of credibility they don't deserve. Also, I hate when religiots invoke famous scientists whom they decry as deluded at one turn, but claim as friends at the other. It's pathetic and saddening.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga No, you don't "know" anything of the sort. It's fact. There was NEVER a time in which Christians viewed the BIble as literal truth. There's nothing Christian about it, it's idolatry, and usually done for the most unChristian of purposes, whether supporting slavery and sexism or attacks against gay people, it's NOT to follow Jesus' simple law...do unto others. And as a genealogy nerd I can assure you that NO, most people did NOT die before 30 years old 200, or 500, years ago.

[@nakedapedude]

@prismbeats1 Open mindedness is not automatically a good thing as demonstrated by theists who are often so open minded their brains fall out.

[@Viracocha711]

@ivlfounder I am not doubting that...But let us keep things in perspective. That is a minority view within the Atheist community. Most Atheist contrary to the lies told by Christians could care less about religion until it is being forced on us or used to hurt others. Right now in America this is what is happening! 80% or so of America is Christian & the latest Pew research poll said Atheist are the most fear & mistrusted group in America...I have to ask why? I know the reason do you?

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Ricky103 That's really not true. I cannot prove my daughter loves me, cannot test it in a lab, put statistics to it, there's no proof. I still know my daughter loves me. I cannot prove that a cold beer tastes great. I cannot prove that I'm happy when the Cardinals are winning. And I cannot prove that I love Christ, and Christ loves me. But I know it.

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@GravDiga Well, if faith is what one believes in their head, than EVERY Person has religious freedom, as opposed to the 60% you just claimed don't. You THINK this is false--you finally said something accurate! You THINK this is false, I know it's not. I know absolutely what I'm talking about, and you watch a lot of TV and saw a movie. People have ALWAYS thought that the Bible had some truth to it, but did NOT believe this balderdash of every word being literal truth.

[@GravDiga]

@PrisonerNumber9653 I must respond to this comment because i want to know (What is your source for saying most Christians do not believe the scripture is literally true..?) And the way you see beauty is the way of the past... I just want you to see this Watch this video from 2:49 to 5:39 ..if you want to know how scientists see beauty...Without god...listen to all the ways Richard does see beauty in nature.. /watch?v=4ryvtBFlpD4

[@ivlfounder]

@olekstom "He" is taking care of them. You can see people their with orders from God any day you go. Fact is we would be able to help all of them if more people did what they're supposed to do.

[@Viracocha711]

@prismbeats1 The rest of your comment is nothing but assumptions. You want their to be a god so you believe there is a god. Once you have allowed yourself to go down this road then anything you want will be proof to YOU that a god exist. HOWEVER, there is no scientific proof of a supernatural being or beings anywhere. So far science has been able to answer untold # of questions that were said were impossible to answer...Nothing says this will not continue!

[@Truthiness231]

This video makes me sad for humanity... we're in the 21st century now and the god of the gaps is still finding cracks to hide in... And now, for a rebuttal to the future Space Pope, is Neil Degrasse Tyson: watch?v=XTOzeO-nz2A

[@ivlfounder]

@olekstom "Hell's Angel"? lol someones been reading to much hitchens. He's going to die soon you know that right? And when he does he'll leave little behind save for a few rants he's written down. Teresa on the other hand left behind 610+ missions in over 123 countries, including hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, as well as soup kitchens, children's and family counselling programs, orphanages, and schools. What have you done today that compares?

[@PrisonerNumber9653]

@Ricky103 Oh, but you understand EVERYTHING and don't NEED explanations. There's nothing remotely lazy about belief in God. When you say "nature's way" you may well be saying GOD'S WAY. You believe what you believe, you have that freedom, but insulting those who believe differently and the arrogance of thinking you have all the answers shows you're as closed-minded as they come.

[@Viracocha711]

@prismbeats1 No, I & the Atheist I know do not say "There is no god or gods" that are words you & others put in our mouths. What we do say is "There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support a god or gods" & until there is we do not believe & will continue to pursue answers through science, reason & rational thinking. You are the one who ON FAITH assume there is a god. If you have scientific proof of a god then TELL ALL???