Bishop John Shelby Spong: Why Atonement Theology will Kill Christianity

Speaking at Community Christian Church of Springfield, MO, Bishop Spong gave us a taste of sections of his next book which will be on the Gospel of Matthew. In this lecture he is speaking to the need for the modern church to abandon its outdated commitment to belief in substitutionary death/atonement theology.

[@RayWhiting]

I am a former Pentecostal minister, out of the pulpit 30 years, and away from Christianity almost as long. I am atheist and no longer have a need of a god or a savior. But I appreciate Bishop Spong's message in this video. It was his book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" that helped me leave Christianity and religion altogether. I support the concept of religious freedom, and I would love it if more so-called "Christians" would hear what Bishop Spong is saying and learn to apply it. Christianity has to change or die.

[@kellyew144]

Ray Whiting Pentecostal pastor's daughter here! If all you get is rotten fruit from the message that is taught, something is NOT right. How does the good news result in such a bad story. Just looking at the amount of hate filled rhetoric that comes from "christians" about politics and a world view, I have to believe we've missed the boat...Yep, I can see where someone would throw out the whole thing. I would except for those moments when my faith and personal encounters with Jesus are too real to reject. Never ashamed of following Christ, mostly embarrassed by the church.

[@RayWhiting]

Jasper Cool -- I walked away because I could not stay and lie any longer. The Jesus myth is just a fabrication. Those who wish to stay are welcome to do so, but there was no Adam and Eve, no Jesus, no resurrection ... none of it is true.

[@kellyew144]

That's the best way to walk away. To believe none of it is true! It is after all a faith issue and therefore cannot be proven.I can't prove what I experienced. It was after I walked away that I experienced it and not like anything the pentecostal people would encourage one to experience to prove they are children of God. Mine was unasked for, unexpected and has opened up a broad and brave new world that has created my world with hope and possibility and joy in fellow mankind. I get sick walking into church. I spend most of my time holding believers accountable for fruitless belief systems. Mine is not a faith of religion. It is open ended, expectant and inclusive. Best wishes. I have read of others who have walked away. I contacted one who is a trained psychologist who serves as a conduit for helping those who want to walk away. She had so much anger, and bitterness in her conversation when she called me back that I felt sorry for her. I hope your life is full of joy!

[@RayWhiting]

***** - There are no prophecies being fulfilled now. There have been no fulfilled prophecies in the past. There will be no prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the future. There is no such thing as a genuine prophecy because there is not such thing as a genuine prophet.

[@RayWhiting]

still do it. :-)

[@tomlenhard7581]

I just heard this man for the first time tonight. He is a true Christian. No robot fundamentalist garbage coming from his words. Thank you for posting this.

[@richardjohnson909]

+Tom Lenhard Agreed.

[@richardjohnson909]

***** Perhaps you can tell me when God set you apart to be the Judge to determine who is or is not a true Christian. And the same time you may consider if your fundamentalist approach to understanding scripture might in fact be the heresy you accuse the Bishop of. If you really knew Jesus as you think, perhaps you'll recognize His voice when you hear it.

[@opendoorgames6413]

Spong is not a Christian. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." John 8:7 " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28 And on... and on.. and on, there are countless Bible verses teaching us to look inward into our hearts, and seek redemption.....as we have all sinned. Spong never quotes the Bible in context and does so rarely, because what he spews are his own beliefs... not Jesus. In order to get you to believe HIS beliefs, Spong constantly undermines the Bible and acts "above it all", blaming human error for not getting God's message correct... and replacing it with HIS message. He is no better than Jim Jones or David Koresh. Show less

[@TurkPowers]

@Joshua Frye - Do you realize that John 8:7 is not found in the earliest manuscripts we have of John?

[@loganbothwell543]

Tom Lenhard Christian? He doesn’t even believe Jesus was the son of God! How can he possibly be Christian? He makes fun of women....saying men made a mistake a few times in electing governments! History is 99% full of these stupid mistakes! Who makes all the laws that are bringing this world to hell at an alarming rate! If you don’t believe me......ask Jesus.....he will let you know the truth! Throw everything you think you believe that was taught by sinful arrogant men and go to the source of truth. This man is a bishop? Of which church of Satan?I I beg of you.....stop believing in religion and believe that Jesus died for your sins, ask for forgiveness and follow the Holy Spirit “the inner small voice”....or conscious which everyone has....but, it is possible to become so hardened against truth and love that they no longer recognize it anymore. God has a plan for everyone’s life ......being, to lead everyone to repentance and a simple faith that will save your immortal soul. Do it today.....your next second of life as you know it....is not guaranteed!! Worship is being thankful that you are no longer in sin because through the sacrifice of Jesus paying our debt we will live eternally with him. If you actually love others...you will lead them to God! God could not have made it easier to be saved....and there is no excuse for anyone to suffer eternal damnation except their own pride! God bless.

[@christianfellowshipinjyvas647]

So glad this man can still speak to our hearts, although he’s passed away. Let those who have ears listen. ❤

[@f23r23]

This is outstanding. This man here basically promotes love, self-enlightenment and human progression. A spiritually evolved human being automatically becomes a human being dropping selfishness, envy and lust. Which means no more backstabbing, no more corruption and no more war. A peaceful world. That's what he's preaching. And that's what every priest, agnostic, atheist, religious or nonreligious person in this world should preach.

[@adesignforlivinginterventi561]

Jack Spong speaks truth that most Christians need to hear and then embrace. Unfortunately, it will probably be many many years before the tide shifts to embrace his message.

[@analeigh5908]

Wow. He makes the most sense of any Christian I've ever met. Thank you for your wisdom, sir.

[@1MichaelRWeir]

A thousand times Amen! Finally a Bishop who truly gets it all. Love is the only way!

[@randytaylor5986]

In the experiences I've had with Christianity, I have always had so many questions, but no answers. The literal interpretations of the bible have always seemed so ridiculous to me. I'm sure they are to many people. So you're faced with either just accepting what the church tells you or not believing at all. Bishop Spong's message spoke to my heart and brought tears to my eyes, this explanation makes perfect sense to me. This brings a confirmation of God to me and an understanding of real Christianity. Thank you so much!

[@bishopjohnshelby8462]

God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,[phone] if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you..

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

This can explain the reality of the judgement and the need for Christ. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJe0m6mrisSUipI You have to experience and encounter Christ not just Christianity friend. May you find Him. "Seek and you shall find." This can explain the reality of the judgement and the need for Christ. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJe0m6mrisSUipI

[@johnjumper7066]

I used to detest this man. I saw him destroying the Episcopal Church I loved. Now that Im older I just see him as a man trying to figure out a way that Christianity may remain relevant and helpful to out lives.

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

Hes an antichrist wolf in sheeps clothing.

[@stevebrown8368]

He's a pioneer in reasoned, progressive Christianity, been a fan for years

[@kristendavis7870]

How anyone could detest this man is beyond comprehension.

[@danielmann5427]

@@kristendavis7870 God detest him. And now he's in torment waiting for his eternal state of death.

[@Matira269]

@@danielmann5427 Your words betray your state of mind.

[@aikmanben]

Bishop Spong, you are a continuing source of education and inspiration for me. I'm always drawn to your lectures.

[@glennvanputte1042]

; ,

[@glennvanputte1042]

,

[@dibble2005]

This man is full of the holy spirit. He speaks the truth.

[@menamarina8368]

No he doesn't.

[@gab31282]

How can he have been full of the Holy Spirit, if he didn't believe in the Biblical God, Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit?

[@tomy8339]

@@gab31282 Bishop Spong said he doesn't identify Jesus as saviour or rescuer because that means we are in need of saving and rescuing. If that isn't the absolute definition of heresy, I don't know what is.

[@Raiden-the-Goat32]

@@tomy8339 His conclusion is pretty accurate though. I mean a savior does mean you need to be saved or rescued. But I will add the church has used the word heresy/ heretic to target people who they disagreed with. As in heresy is a useless word that amounts to someone does not agree with me on what is the truth of God. Heresy is literally going against agreed upon church doctrine which would mean someone does not agree with you.

[@minaguta4147]

Sounds dramatic, but this lecture changed my life a few years ago. I will always love Bishop Spong. RIP

[@todbeard8118]

Although I'm agnostic, I love watching Bishop Spong's lectures and debates. He is truly a wise man. He handed James White his ass in their debate about homosexuality.

[@cinnamondan4984]

tod beard i am not totally going to find that

[@jessetoler1032]

Not at all! White thrashed Spong, easily.

[@todbeard8118]

@@jessetoler1032 Name one issue you think White got Spong on.

[@jessetoler1032]

@@todbeard8118 Paul being homosexual, for one. Want me to list the other fifty or so or do you want to cover that one?

[@todbeard8118]

@@jessetoler1032 No, I believe he was gay.

[@markrichter2053]

“God is not a noun that must be defined. God is a verb that must be lived!”

[@daodejing81]

Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!

[@stchew49]

A brave and honest man, one who dares to confront his once-held spiritual beliefs.

[@johnbull9195]

Challenging Christianity is not brave, it's popular now.

[@david-baker]

Challenging commonly held assumptions has never been rewarded. We are raised not to. To challenge one of the oldest faith traditions, and not with hate but with love, is brave. Refusing to become educated about the origins of belief and the contexts in which things were written is not brave or being committed. It is a willful ignorance that serves a small definition of this life.

[@jasonmerrick8597]

Psalm 50:21. “You THOUGHT I was like you”

[@samuelskillern7365]

RIP Bishop John Shelby Spong. Just found out he passed away in September after doing some simple research. I also just found out he was an Episcopalian, the denomination I'm seriously considering joining. A few minutes in, I can tell he is of sound theology.

[@5150cappie]

Hi Rachel. Hope you’re doing well. I’m very happy you are asking the important questions and I want to emphasize Hod embraces your feelings, questions, and adjustments to your beliefs. It’s natural and a sign of maturity to ask these questions. Some people are so terrified and threatened by every “other” outside their tribe that they will project their fear of nuance on you with veiled threats of God’s abandonment of you - and of course it’s your own fault because you were given the offer (shake-down) of Salvation theology. But many Christians will embrace you with all your doubts and questions - most of all God, the Father, who rejoices that you’re interested enough to ask. When I was pretty ready to walk away from Christianity some 35 years ago, my decision was based on the tribal egotism of fundamentalists who have the pretense to define God and Jesus to everyone else - especially Christians that ask difficult questions. I find literalism intellectually dishonest and I know many of them agree but keep it to themselves. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled across one of Bishop John Shelby Spong’s first books RESCUING THE BIBLE FROM FUNDAMENTALISM. It changed my life, brought me closer to God and my understanding of what Jesus was getting at. I’ve read a lot of his books and watched lots of debates and talks he has given that are now posted to KZbin. I find this one particularly excellent at presenting an understanding of Christianity that stopped me from throwing out baby Jesus with the bath water. It’s all good for thought and your journey is yours, but through my life I’ve learned some things and said to myself “I wish someone had told me about this years ago”…So here you are. I hope it helps your understanding of Christianity. Never forget: the Loving Father and creator of the universe might just be wise enough to love you even deeper because of, not in spite of, your sincere questions. If you can glean one nuggets from this, you’re a little more ahead than before. Love you and be gentle on yourself. 😊🙏❤️😊😁.

[@cryptojayuk]

most honest bishop I've heard

[@stevepayne5965]

+MHM EEKK What lies has he told?

[@opendoorgames6413]

@Steve While I can't see the comment you are replying to, Spong tells many lies. He is talking to Christians and trying to say that original sin isn't Biblical... that Jesus isn't a redeemer. Basically, his whole speech paraphrased is that we aren't sinners and that we don't need God's salvation. You cannot believe that and be a Christian. Spong has concocted a belief that he fancies.... and now he takes a black marker to the Bible and redacted any information that doesn't fit what he wants it to say. Then he spews his belief back onto his Christian audience and acts like it is God's revelation. He's just as bad as David Koresh and Jim Jones.

[@stevepayne5965]

@Steve "While I can't see the comment you are replying to, Spong tells many lies." OK, name some. "He is talking to Christians and trying to say that original sin isn't Biblical" Where does original sin appear in the Bible? "Basically, his whole speech paraphrased is that we aren't sinners and that we don't need God's salvation." I always wary of paraphrase - it usually involves A (the one doing the paraphrasing) telling you what A thinks instead of what B (the one being paraphrased) actually said "You cannot believe that and be a Christian." Or just a different kind of obe, perhaps? "Spong has concocted a belief that he fancies.... and now he takes a black marker to the Bible and redacted any information that doesn't fit what he wants it to say." Which everybody except a tiny number of literalists and fundamentalists already does anyway. What's the difference? "He's just as bad as David Koresh and Jim Jones." Koresh and Jones were cult leaders involved in various crimes including (but certainly not limited to) sexual abuse, rape and murder. I invite you to think long and hard about your comparison of an elderly bishop who writes books with those two and see exactly how utterly, unbelievably foolish you've made yourself sound.

[@opendoorgames6413]

@Steve "OK name some [lies]" Lie 1 - *Defines himself a Christian* but denies validity of almost all Biblical texts, denies Jesus as redeemer, denies Jesus ressurection, denies need for salvation, [pretty much denies Nicene Creed, which defines Christian belief] Lie 2 - *"The Bible affirms slavery in both testaments"* - First of all, Spong doesn't realize that the Slavery of the Bible was against enemy combatants captured in war, people who became slaves through debt, people who became slaves through choice when the alternative was starvation, or people who were criminals. Those aren't the same as slavery of 200 years ago, in which innocent people were ripped from their homes and enslaved for no purpose because they were viewed as inferior. In fact, most of those types of "slavery" still exist today and are accepted... have you ever heard of a chain Gang? Slavery of 200 years ago would have been denied outright by the Hebrews. Secondly, the Bible doesn't affirm slavery, but instead attempts to outline the rights of a slave: www.rationalchristianity.net/slavery_ot.html Lie 3 - 11:07 - *For 2 minutes Spong suggest that we aren't fallen and Jesus isn't our redeemer or savior... he suggests that these aren't Biblical concepts.* www.openbible.info/topics/our_savior Just read these Bible verses which CLEARLY SHOW HE ISN'T SPEAKING FROM THE BIBLE. Lie 4 - 12:06 *Spong goes on for 2 more minutes to talk about how 4th century Biblical scholars and translators didn't know how to translate Genesis or conceive of the Bible being a collection of books* LIE! OMG LIE! Their translations have stood the test of time and our Bible has remained very much the same as the original text. The proof is the comparison of the text to the dead sea scrolls. You don't think the creators of the Codex Sinaiticus knew that what they were translating in one book was separate from another.... or that they couldn't recognize the New Testament was written in Greek and the Old Testament in Hebrew?! Spong just goes off the deep end.... all the time. Lie 5 - 21:00 *Basically questions whether or not God is our judge* bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-As-Judge Lie 6-7 - 24:30 *God is a monster. A being who cannot forgive. Jesus is a chronic victim. Never left off the Cross.* - Many Christians show Jesus not on the cross to show His triumph over death. - The bible shows OVER AND OVER that God is merciful and loving and doesn't condemn us. - God isn't a monster. Dude... I could go on and on about the lies alone. LOOK AT THE VERSES OF THE BIBLE HE MUST IGNORE FOR THIS ONNNNNEE SERRRRMON! He shows Christianity in an ignorant light. Through his words in 24:00 he suggests that Jesus isn't God. God didn't kill Jesus.... God came to earth to suffer outside of the "garden" just like us, through his divine justice. Jesus and God are one (John 10 : 30) The guy NEVER quotes the bible as I have done repeatedly above. Thus, he is just as bad as Jim Jones. Jim Jones serminized as well, and barely quoted the Bible. In the beginning was the word... Spong's word. He is usurping Jesus words.

[@thaigrrviles5718]

How about how whole portions that have been taken out & put in the other books as revealed by the Dead Sea Scrolls studies? How about the stories that do not match? How about the book of Jeremiah one inch shorter (15%)? How about the missing mention of David & Goliath in Daniel? How about the prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the our current bible? How about the fact that our two oldest bibles Sinai & Vaticanus contain books not in our current bibles and not in each other and vice versa? Does this REALLY look like divine revelation to you? I'd love an honest answer....Is god schizophrenic?

[@gowdsake7103]

Ignorance, hate and imoralty will kill this iron age cult

[@Stupidityindex]

Men have always known God was fake, She would have no need for sleep. My sheep hear My voice being the _slavery_ of sheep. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" Now we watch the death of all, for the success of our _state_ of gall. Galatians 3:13 King James Version 13

[@kevingeorge1095]

Here is a partial list of Penal Substitutionary Atonement problems: 5. Basic logic tells us that a complete payment cancels forgiveness. You cannot forgive a debt that has already been paid, and you do not need to pay a debt that has been forgiven. Forgiveness is granted because a debt has NOT been paid, not after the payment has been made! 6. Forgiveness that can be bought or sold is not true forgiveness. If you think that you or a third party can purchase genuine forgiveness, you do not understand forgiveness! 7. We humans are able to forgive others when they sin against us. To claim that God cannot do a good thing that we can do is to make us more moral than God. 8. PSA’s "infinite justice” claim has God incapable of truly forgiving us without first getting a proxy payment by murder and blood. How can that be genuine forgiveness? 9. If someone says, “I forgive you,” you assume it is done right then, not secretly projecting it into a nebulous future when a payment will eventually be made by someone else. Secretly projecting the act of forgiving into the distant future would be considered deceptive. God is not a deceiver for forgiving people before Christ died. 10. God said many times that He would forgive, and He forgave (past tense), long before Jesus was born. Many texts could be listed. The following are just a few of these: “If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 “I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.” Psalm 32:5 “You forgave the iniquity of your people; you covered all their sin.” Psalm 85:2 “LORD our God, you answered them; you were to Israel a forgiving God, though you punished their misdeeds.” Psalm 99:8 NIV “Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.” Micah 7:18 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7 11. Jesus did not seem to think that he was going to make a payment to God for the sins of humanity. Even while on the cross He did not speak as if he was making a payment when he said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” (Lk 23:34). Jesus did not say, “Father, wait until I am finished paying for their sins, then you can forgive them.” 12. Every example of forgiveness we have from Jesus shows forgiveness in the normal human sense, not in some unheard-of future forgiveness, transfer, imputation, payment, or third-party justice. “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors...for if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses...” Matthew 6:12, 14-15 “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” Mark 11:25 (See also Matthew 9:2-8, 18:21-35, Luke 5:20, 6:37, 7:47-48, 11:4, 15:11-32.) 13. A literal payment requires a literal transfer and a literal recipient of that payment. How can a death (an action, not a substance) be a literal payment? Who collected this payment? 14. If God has been paid in full for our sins, then why does He still demand that we stop sinning and live right, and even have wrath and threaten judgment for disobedience? If Jesus paid it all, God got what He wanted. 15. Would not a payment for sin be a type of indulgence payment, a bribe to ignore sin and to issue a pardon? A blood sacrifice as a payment to a god is a pagan idea, which is why God ordered the Old Testament people many times to stop their sacrifices - they began treating sacrifices as if they were indulgences, and that stinks to God. Ps. 40:6, 51:16, Jer. 6:20, Is. 1:11-18, 1 Samuel 15:22, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22. (The God of the Bible is relational, and sacrifices were supposed to be a token of this relationship, not a payment to get Him to change.) For more on this topic, see the book “Atonement and Reconciliation” by Kevin George.

[@montereyuke]

Rest In Peace, Bishop Spong

[@leegleissner9771]

Evidence that we evolved is huge. 95 percent Christians accept this now. There is no evidence we fell from grace and that we were kicked out of paradise by a bad tempered God. It is time to enjoy and love life if possible. Chances are this is the only life you will have.

[@MrDavicovic]

Disobedience is a sin, it's stated in the Bible.

[@interman7715]

MrDavicovic What are they disobeying?

[@The1SilverShadow]

Maybe 95 p/c of the people you call Christians you stupid fool

[@The1SilverShadow]

@@MrDavicovic well said partner

[@savedfaves]

Exceptional Christian. Excellent talk.

[@squarerigtwo2057]

+savedfaves Exceptional hallucinator!

[@johnbull9195]

Rejecting fundamental Christian doctrines does not mean you continue to be a Christian.

[@rolandjosef7961]

@@johnbull9195 That is the actual miracle here. It really boggles my mind that People like Spong can still claim a Christian while totally demolishing the Bible and reinterpreting it and give it a totally new meaning. Imagine Jesus the Creator cannot ascend to heaven because he didn't rise from the dead physically in the first place. This truly amazing and some people believe him.

[@stourleykracklite7663]

Be boggled, then

[@holulu777]

Bishop Spong just destroyed central doctrine of Christianity (damnation/salvation). Good job.

[@carsonfball4]

That's not the central doctrine for many Christians. A number of Christians believe in universal salvation.

[@draganlocort8865]

I respect this white man so much!!!! i can't stop listening to him, he's so amazing!!!!. love him!!!!,,

[@soundidesign9653]

@Warren Bost hahaha

[@fstaheli]

Even though I often disagree with Dr. Spong, I love that he makes me think!

[@ronc.9248]

Frank Staheli me too

[@billwilder1340]

Astoundingly important message !!

[@taboo_lullaby]

Great talk

[@mowilljd]

Wow the amount of faith it’ll take to roll with this is even more exhausting.

[@5150cappie]

Great man speaking at a great church. Diamonds in fields of mud. Love you too, Roger and team.😊

[@Indusalpha]

This is an amazing sermon. Inspired and infused with the divine that can exist within each of us.

[@edenredeemed]

here i am living in 2017, how I wish he were right about Donald Trump not being apart of the future.

[@soldiersofchristrallypoint]

Bri Bing Nope - Trump 2020

[@I_AM-MICHAEL]

@@soldiersofchristrallypoint WRONG....PELOSI 2019

[@soldiersofchristrallypoint]

IveHearted1 Aaaa, she ain’t even running. Trump been winning big in all he does inspite of the Decocrats! Hahahahaha

[@I_AM-MICHAEL]

​@@soldiersofchristrallypoint She doesn't need to WIN anything. If Trump and Pence are removed from office (which they will be), the speaker of the house becomes president. ….Do you watch the news? You think Trump is actually WINNING anything right now? How stupid can you possibly be?......Never mind that, you'd probably consider it a personal challenge.

[@ncooty]

I'm glad Spong pushes Christianity in the direction of humanism, but I am amazed at the mental gymnastics he performs to convince himself that what he's talking about is Christianity at all. In fact, he makes the most sense to me if I assume that he's a pragmatic humanist who figures he can do more good from the inside than from the outside--i.e., pushing Christianity toward rational empathy as an Episcopalian priest rather than as an easily dismissed humanist or atheist. It also seems to me that his supernatural claims add nothing to his message; if anything, they detract from it, in much the same way that he feels common Christian beliefs rob people of their humanity. E.g., why is our love for each other and for ourselves insufficient? Why are God's hopes and aspirations for us better than our hopes and aspirations for each other and for ourselves? Spong's god is just another way for us to project the best parts of humanity to something outside ourselves, thus committing the very error Spong derides in this talk. It seems to be that Spong has gone as far as his religious tether will let him wander, but he just won't break free, for whatever reason--and that's sad. For all his rhetoric, he won't accept his own humanity--nor let the rest of us take credit for ours. I wonder how much of his reticence--at worst--is linked to the self-worth with which he thinks his frock imbues him.

[@moonpage8097]

+ncooty How did you get any of that from what Sprong said?

[@Wcaylor1976]

+MoonPage ツ Christ was radical empathy??? Hello???

[@ScottCRaines]

Jesus wasn't a Christian. :-)

[@MrDavicovic]

Jesus was God.

[@TorianTammas]

​@@MrDavicovicIesous as we have only greek-Roman literature in greek, written by greeks neant only for greeks.

[@karachaffee3343]

Christianity as practiced requires that one does not ask very simple questions and accept the very simple answers that naturally follow.

[@donfreud212]

An awful lot of people here seem to have missed the whole point of Bishop Spong's lecture. I don't know why that should surprise me since they also have proven, with their pretentious, nasty commentary, that they missed Jesus' point as well.

[@aikmanben]

I fully agree.

[@opendoorgames6413]

"Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin." - Psalm 51:1-2 Bishop Spong is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He adds all kinds of lies into his sermons "A victomizing theology creates victomizers".... what, that's like saying rape creates rapists? Women voted for a womanizer, shows you how irrational some of our religious claims are.... why does Bill Clinton being elected have anything to do with religious claims? Spong's soft voice may have blinded you to the fact that his beliefs are not based in the Bible or Jesus..... The Bible/Jesus are just tacked on to something he made up. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption of Jesus Christ" Romans 3:23 Spong isn't representing Christ in the Bible.... Spong is representing Spong.

[@donfreud212]

Too much of the bible was just made up, but not by Spong. Most of that happened in the first part of the forth century and we will never know exactly what all was added or changed. But the bible was probably not intended to be used as a weapon against minority groups, as it is today by the "Christian" right. Spong knows more about the bible than you ever will Joshua. And the closed mindedness you demonstrate is proof enough of that.

[@opendoorgames6413]

@ Freud Wow. You sure have bought the cow, haven't you! Even Atheist historians like Bart Erhmann disagree with Spong. I find it funny that Spong never quotes the Bible. He never says to his church "open up your Bible to this chapter of this book". These sermons are all just his words, with no Christian substance. He's just a collection of soundbites that doesn't hold up to facts.

[@donfreud212]

Try to relax. Everything will be okay. It's okay when people disagree and it actually means very little. Hatred is stressful and it's a bad habit. But only you can fix it within yourself.

[@stourleykracklite7663]

People did quote the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. And if they thought they were right to do so then others can find justifications to condemn and subordinate those whom they disdain, find disgusting or otherwise deem unworthy. Those who entitle themselves to see other people as unworthy will dimiss Spong's words with retorts that seem to them and their fellow travelers smart. As if self-serving were the definition of smart.

[@conradbulos6164]

Bishop Spong, (may his tribe increase), speaks of worshipping God properly by loving others beyond self. The word, " worship" is a form of idolatry and our beloved bishop may be misapplying it to God. Only the god of the bible demands worship....so badly that the first three of the Ten Commandments are all about himself. Today's God neither asks or demands such worship Perhaps, Bishop Spong should just say: If you truly love God, love others above yourself......as a suggestion, not a command.

[@afreedman4361]

Upon discovering I was God, it scared the sh*t out of me. Through all those prayers I was talking to myself. Answering myself. Realizing that I didn't have the power to get everything I'd wanted.

[@happeningheidi]

I absolutely love this. Thank you.

[@bishopjohnshelby8462]

God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,[phone] if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you......

[@markrichter2053]

Biologists are now saying that many of the higher mammals can be observed exhibiting behaviours that are consistent with higher types of consciousness than previously thought. In great apes it’s suggested that self-awareness may be present.

[@joebhall5439]

I am learning a lot from Spong about how to put things more gently.

[@cmk1964]

Sprong is a highly intelligent, deep thinking person, with a wonderful ability to see reality. A 21st century man who deserves respect. He reveals the truth. He's just one step away from atheism.

[@Henryisoh]

I agree

[@aikmanben]

I don't think that's necessarily the case, that he's a step away from atheism. I think he just found a way to be critical of the negative aspects of Christianity (and/or religion) while embracing the legitimate aspects in a way that still embraces the reality/experience of a higher power---or God, as it's called.

[@CCCSpringfield]

Christopher Kennedy His name is Spong

[@sponsler]

He's a dumb ass ...and a liar....

[@pachamama8586]

I don't think he's even close to being an atheist at all. He is making a case for a god who doesn't have the attributes of a tribal warlord god. He wants us to see that god is so much greater and grander than humans some thousands of years ago could imagine. And that we should grow out of the concepts of god and the world that are long obsolete.

[@brandonjezek3468]

Good lesson my question would be if we don’t need a savior how is one made righteous before a holy God

[@kayojen8827]

a really important point

[@MiguelSanchez-fo9dz]

thank you for sharing, greetings from El Salvador!

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

This can explain the reality of the judgement and the need for Christ. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJe0m6mrisSUipI

[@Paolo8772]

I love John Shelby Spong and don't care if Christianity dies. Why should I care if a dumb religion dies if every human being dies?

[@maureenoconnor4430]

Great stuff

[@ginnykrauskopf7853]

When I was about 8 years old, my mind kept circling around and around about the fall of Adam and Eve. God had made them, and they were perfect in every way. But if that was so, they wouldn't have been tempted to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. A perfect person wouldn't be swayed like that. So they weren't really perfect, were they. I asked my teacher (a nun) that, and got my ears pinned back. It was evil to question anything about the Bible, and so on and so on. I've always kept my questions to myself, but they were there. Bishop Spong has answered so many of my questions. Thanks!

[@conradbulos6164]

Uh, ginny, I thank God for your inquiring mind at such a tender age of 8 and obviously already smarter than the nun who pinned back your ears cuz you exposed her ignorance on the subject she was teaching. The Adam and Eve story is a fable about natural curiosity being punished as being disobedient against a stupid command not to eat the fruit of a certain tree strategically placed to tempt you. The tree is supposed to be the Tree of Knowledge and the obvious reason God forbade them to eat from it is that God wanted our first parents to remain ignorant and stupid. So, the lesson here is to be curious and seeking knowledge is to be bad and evil,(imperfect). Ai age 8, you already recognized how stupid the story is.

[@bozhidarbalkas5547]

Bishop Spong is writing a new god, jesus, and bible. We do need a new, improved god. Bible can be thrown away or else its dirt strongly scrubbed!

[@colombo640]

This is well worth a listen.

[@opendoorgames6413]

Not really unless you like lies. Spong is not a Christian. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." John 8:7 " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28 And on... and on.. and on, there are countless Bible verses teaching us to look inward into our hearts, and seek redemption.....as we have all sinned. Spong never quotes the Bible in context and does so rarely, because what he spews are his own beliefs... not Jesus. In order to get you to believe HIS beliefs, Spong constantly undermines the Bible and acts "above it all", blaming human error for not getting God's message correct... and replacing it with HIS message. He is no better than Jim Jones or David Koresh.

[@heighwaysonthewing]

@@opendoorgames6413 they are his interpretation of what he believes about the Bible , I also do not agree with all of his points, disbelieving Gods miracles, that's the whole point of a miracle it is out of the ordinary , theses things in the Bible God could do with ease , Haven is on another dimension , not just in the sky , so yes you're right about that, some of his ideas are fun though , and somewhat true , we are the ones who go to Church and believe and try our best on the hole , so why should we be called unfit and unworthy , if we are that unfit , who is? , but true we are not perfect, I would never say I am , but I'm sorry I don't believe that is God a tormentor and I don't believe in hell , I do believe in haven and that Jesus died for our sin , so we could go to heaven , but I only see God as a kind and loving God, not this tyrant some people make him out to be, God has rules, but we will all fall short of them from time to time, he knows we will , he is not a parking warden or Hitler , he is your friend . this man hits some nails on the head others he misses wildly. he quotes Darwin ? what a dickhead he is on this he is so wrong on that , no such thing as evolution ..

[@markrichter2053]

I do think we have to lay some blame for the doctrine of original sin sin on the Apostle Paul and his letters, especially Romans.

[@elanabethfariss117]

If Jesus spoke about redemption and atonement, I'd probably put my trust in that since He is our Lord and savior. What good does it do to call yourself a Christian when you don't believe the words of Christ? Jesus performed miracles, and perhaps we weren't there, but the gospels were written by men who were willing to lay their own lives down, and many of them did. People that don't understand the bible only need to believe that Jesus died, sacrificed His own blood as a ransom for the sins of many. He died and rose again and is alive forever. If you don't believe that He sacrificed His life for our sins, you are not a Christian believer.

[@miischaqi2676]

If the bible is mostly untrue, then how does he maintain the central idea that god exists at all or that jesus was more than just a man?

[@markevanpowell2157]

I've read a couple of his books and it seems the reason God exists to him is in an experiential way. He "knows" god exists because he experiences god throughout his life in many different ways. In his books he does say essentially that Jesus of Nazareth (Jesus of history) was just a man, but that the Jesus of the bible is essentially a character that represents a new understanding of God, moving away from the previous human understanding of a tribal god and towards a god that accepts all and operates through love. So his beliefs are very much grounded in mysticism, which i think is eventually where a nonliteral interpretation of the bible will lead you.

[@kaylaoutlaw3463]

Spong notes in “jesus for the non-religious” that from the beginning of the time when humans began to have self awareness, and the awareness that they would eventually die, they had to create some type of coping mechanism for their overwhelming anxieties. He states that the progression of religion from multiple gods to one theistic God was necessary and unavoidable. Finding an “ultimate truth” for humans is the only way to create a false sense of security. humans created a language to express their God experiences, which created religion and liturgy.

[@Over-for-now]

This poor man is replying against God. He will not get away with it

[@aikmanben]

What an amazing teacher.

[@2000sDigitalBoy]

If you were to ask an "average" Christian what the basic tenants of the Christian faith were, Bishop Spong would denounce almost all of them. His beliefs and teachings are antithetical to virtually every mainstream Christian denomination. Why this man was an Episcopal bishop, I have no idea; his beliefs are more in line with Unitarianism than anything else. He isn't reforming the Christian faith; he's abandoning it. And it pains me to see people celebrate him as an authority and inspiration inside the Church. Although it shouldn't surprise me that atheists and humanists are more receptive to a message that is fundamentally non-Christian.

[@melissamybubbles6139]

2000sDigitalBoy Perhaps he is the last landing place for anyone wanting to remain Christian. Besides, religion in a period of greater education has to adapt.

[@brad4511]

He is abandoning a Christianity that's been hijacked by the fundamentalists. He is right and smart to do so.

[@kaylacarpenter9658]

2000sDigitalBoy Do you know what a gematria is?

[@jasonmerrick8597]

Good observation, Digitalboy

[@mzdejavu3419]

This was amazing!!!!

[@roseproctor3177]

I'm so humbled by this message... Thank you ❤

[@thomasjohnson3841]

Total nonsense. Christianity is shrinking the more it tries to "get with the times".

[@leegleissner9771]

I have an interesting question. Why did not jesus stay here in his resurrected state so there would not be so many divisions inguisitions etc. Should not evidence overuse faith especially when eternity depends on this. Seems jesus should of realized this He could of become a great planetary counsilor

[@squarerigtwo2057]

+Lee Gleissner Your question is neither interesting nor relevant concerning the alleged resurrection and re-appearance for he did neither!

[@leegleissner9771]

+Squarerig Two You could be right. I was just supposing if it was true why did not Jesus stay here so people would not have all these debates and arguments.

[@13gladius28]

Ok, this question has been asked many times by many ppl. I guess most ppl don't know th answer which is unfortunate. My short answer: If he had remained alive on earth forever ppl would hav grown to fear him, they'd respect n worship him out of fear rather than love.

[@CCCSpringfield]

The resurrection story is a myth. The miracle accounts are myths. This is the way that religious writers extolled their teachers after death in the ancient world.

[@opendoorgames6413]

@CCCSpringfieldThe life of Jesus disciples were radically changed, Paul was radically changed to the point that they were dying for what they had witnessed. The best explanation that fits all of the evidence is that Jesus rose from the dead, not that they created a mythology that they defended until death. Jesus' words identified that he thought himself to be God incarnate. Even atheist scholor, Bart Erhman, has written that the disciples believed Jesus had risen from the dead.... which negates the possibility that they created this myth and then died for it.

[@shawnj.o.9887]

I have to strongly disagree with the premise which this case sits upon. We do not portray God as a blood hungry deity requiring sacrifice to forgive. That may be Spongs understanding but that certainly isn’t what I was taught. I was taught that God is holy and so awesome that sin is not allowed in His presence for the very sinner would be obliterated from existence (like Moses being effected by the burning bush). I was taught that sin requires punishment and unpunished sin is unholy (who would disagree that a murderer be free to live without penalty?) I was taught that God loved us so much that He had to supply a way for us to withstand in His presence by making a means to whereby our sins could be punished and we would be made Holy and blameless in that presence. I was taught that Jesus made that way, that Jesus is that truth and that anyone who desires to be in the presence of their creator must have their sins be put through that crucible.

[@peternorrman4213]

Thank you Violet I liked it and you are a good woman

[@Over-for-now]

Born in sin --- all have a fallen nature. Jesus gives us a BRAND new nature that cannot sin. God does as HE will. Sorry you don't like it 😢

[@oztinato4099]

Brilliant

[@jrvalencia3293]

I grew up in a very fundamental home, church, and Christian school and, fortunately, the indoctrination and conditioning wasn't as strong as my insatiable curiosity. I can appreciate why Bishop John Shelby Spong calls for an evolution of modern Christianity - it surely needs it. But I'm wondering, has he spoken or written about the sort of deeper, altruistic connection of Christianity to other major religions and philosophies such as Buddhism for example? I just recently ordered about 4 or 5 of his books (waiting for them to arrive) and I don't believe any of them cover that topic. I'm very curious what he thinks about that. Any leads or info on that would be much appreciated. While I enjoy science, I also enjoy the mysticism lol. So, if someone were to ask me to be technical with my approach to "God", I'd say it is certainly not a monotheistic/anthropomorphic approach but rather a more pantheistic approach. Because, even though it may be interpreted as confusing the creation as the creator/creative force, there's no way you can look into the eyes of another being or even at a rock and not see the divine.

[@endofscene]

+JR Valencia I believe that a so-called progressive Christian, like Bishop Spong, likely believes that all religions can be paths to God. You may also want to consider the concept of 'panentheism'. Also, you may be interested to look up the book, 'Conversations With God' by Neale Donald Walsch.

[@MrDavicovic]

Well, then you are not a Christian.

[@carsonfball4]

@JR Valencia >> I'm very curious what he thinks about that. Here are quotes from Spong that may help to clarify what he believes: "The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior." "The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense." "All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination." These quotes are all from his "Twelve Points for Reform", which you can find online. The way I understand it, he is a universalist (everyone is "saved").

[@ginnykrauskopf7853]

He has spent a great deal of his time studying with Jewish scholars, both Torah and Jewish history and sociology. The Old and New Testaments were written by Jews, but by the early 2nd century CE, the followers of Jesus had split from the Jewish faith and included many Gentiles. The Gentiles had no knowledge of how the writings of the Torah (our Old Testament) and the Gospals were done, nor how they were used and interpreted. He knows how they were literalized by the Church. By bringing back the original purpose and intents of the Bible, he can reveal the true meaning of the texts. The video is like a two second snapshot of what he knows. Enjoy his books! His Chautauqua videos are on KZbin - three different weeks for a total of 15 videos.

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

This was interesting.

[@Rahner79]

There are models for the Atonement which affirm God's non-violent love rather than humanity's guilt. The Atonement qua Atonement does not need to be thrown out with the bathwater, only penal substitutionary atonement. Christ IS our sacrifice and substitute, but one which enters into solidarity with us, not a legal contract which saves us from the wrath of the Father, but a manifested love which inaugurates a new Kingdom of grace on earth.

[@opendoorgames6413]

Amen.

[@loufaggiano5809]

Substitutionary atonement is a Christian invention. There is nothing in the OT as far as what God said or did that suggests His final solution for sin would be the killing of His son. I know what response is coming but I will stop here for now.

[@TorianTammas]

Why is a roman execution anything else but a roman execution? It is different because followers of his cult wanted it to be something different and started to tell a story about it.

[@opendoorgames6413]

Sammy Skeptic Please Read Isiah 53 "and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin" "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many," That one verse alone is enough to see that substitutionary atonement is a Jewish belief. Heck, have you never heard of the jewish practice of sacrificing a lamb in order to forgive your families sin? This stuff is all over the old testamentwww.gotquestions.org/animal-sacrifices.html

[@loufaggiano5809]

Don't use that website. Talk to a Rabbi or a scholar of Jewish Antiquities. You will be surprised.

[@waterkingdavid]

4:25 Donald Trump not part of our future? That was wishful 🔥 thinking given he said this before Trump's term! But hopefully he's now right!

[@conradbulos6164]

It is with utmost reluctance that I disagree with our beloved and revered Bishop Spong on the topic of consciousness which he assigns solely to the animal kingdom. The essence of consciousness is vibration and permeates all of creation in varying degrees of frequency.

[@conradbulos6164]

Further, that the whole created universe and our world is in constant vibration. Animal life has a higher frequency than those of plants and solid objects, this last having the lowest frequency.

[@conradbulos6164]

That said, God is the great Consciousness which permeates all of his creation and endowed each of his creation with the gift of self consciousness. In man, with this of self consciousness, God gave man Freewill, and in the lower forms of life the instinct of survival in order to perpetuate themselves in the environment they find themselves in. You still with me? With God's gift of absolute and unlimited Freewill, God put a self imposed limit on himself not to intervene or restrict man's exercise of his Freewill unless man calls for his divine aid. The only limit or condition to man's freewill is not to go against the physical laws God set to govern the universe.

[@conradbulos6164]

Thus, by recognizing, accepting and cooperating with the physical laws of the created universe, man has been able to propagate himself and populate this world we live in with our evolving intelligence and knowledge of our environment.

[@conradbulos6164]

Thus there are levels of consciousness. God lives or exists in the realm of the superconscious and man and the the animal kingdom in the level of the conscious and inanimate objects in the level of the subconscious. Further, that man himself has three levels or qualities of consciousness. the highest is our spirituality, our connection with God. Second, our mental faculties that connect us with our material world. Third, on a subconscious level are our functioning organs which keep us alive which are all selfoperating.

[@Over-for-now]

God HAD mercy already. No need to keep asking. He gave HIS only son to pay our ENTIRE sin debt . Thank you Jesus because I have perfect peace in HIM

[@soebredden]

He forgot to tell how some nonmaterial as consciousness could emerge from matter. Never the les I fully agree on his speech. BUT there IS good and evil or should we call it darkness: The killing of one another has for some reason up til now been a common "sport" . The decay of our bodies and of nature does stand in opposition to the learning from many Near death experiences and the feeling and glimpses of what we call the eternal of universal laws . Jesus WAS a savior -but what he saved was not us from our sins but the fallen himself from the darkness ...(For the darkness IS a power and the world was intended to evolve in another way!) -and it was for HIM that Christ was send to pray. And then to tell all the things you tell John Shelby Spong. Thank you!! The hole story is to find in "Towards the Light" published in Denmark by Michael Agerskov 1920.

[@ranns160]

It also shows that the vote for the Presidency has never been "the choice of the majority'".

[@johnpinckney7269]

This guy is slandering God. Read the bible and compare. He preaches a false gospel. " in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

[@Doriesep6622]

shut up. go your ancient way.

[@arrowhead753]

So did Spong believe in an afterlife?

[@sketchbook1]

His entire question was begged, coming from presuppositions that are postmodern, and he argues his position from there as if it’s already true. Then, he goes subtly ad hominem, And conjures up the bogeyman names of fundamentalist and evangelical…

[@leegleissner9771]

Again my question has not been answered. If Jesus really resurrected why did not he stay here so we all would be on the same page especially if eternity depends on this. Let's not use free will as an explanation with they. I have heard this explanation too much. Many then will not benefit from this supposed salvation. Why hide and seek?

[@opendoorgames6413]

"If Jesus really resurrected, why did he not stay here so we would all be on the same page" I dunno. Why didn't Jesus just demolish his Roman torturers with a legion of angels? There are no answers to these hypothetical questions, except to say that "that wasn't his purpose". The God of the old testament revealed Himself constantly, but was constantly betrayed by His chosen people, from Adam/Eve to the Golden Calf in Exodus to His own gifts like Nehushtan (look it up) being worshipped instead of Him. My thought is that he saw a direct approach wasn't giving Him the results that he wanted, so he changed tactics.

[@TorianTammas]

+Joshua Frye Sure there is an answer. The Romans executed the criminal and this is the end. All else comes from frustrated followers and so it bloomed into many stories.

[@TorianTammas]

+Lee Gleissner This is a very good question. The answer is that the Roman executed one more Jew they considered a rebel and enemy of the Roman Rule. The rest is the result of frustrated followers that did not want it to end. So out of "it can not end like this" they invented "it goes on like this". This was the seed for all the stories about "I have seen him", "I have seen him to". So there was never anything to see outside the stories.

[@opendoorgames6413]

TorianTammas And then they died torturous deaths for the lies they created? This is from a people that believe it a sin to lie? Jesus is actually fulfilling Isaiah 53:3-6 which likened the coming messiah to an innocent blameless lamb that would suffer for our sins. Most jews wanted a military messiah that would overthrow their enemies and trample the Romans. Jesus' "made up stories" would have been better to have fallen into that line if he wanted the majority of jews to follow him. Also, read about the Criterion of embarrassment and how it was women that discovered Jesus first. The CoE says that if something is embarrassing in the Bible then it is more likely to be true. Because women weren't seen as dependible by men in that period it does nothing to help their story to have women be the first witnesses. Therefore, women witnessing the empty tomb of Jesus and many other facts of the new testament are seen as true, not stories, because they contain this moments that would have been excluded or told differently had they been legends.

[@TorianTammas]

Joshua Frye You make a big claim I wonder what evidence you can present. So who has actually seen Jesus raising from the dead in his grave? So who of these people was executed for seeing this? I would like to have names, dates, reason for the execution, possibility to avoid execution by whatever means.

[@stephenarmiger8343]

It would be interesting to have John and Francesca Stavrakopoulou discuss some of these ideas.

[@RobKHere]

I have her book, it’s audio and she reads it herself. It’s fantastic.

[@pasquino0733]

We quote the Bible, A Jew could not enslave a Jew but...'the occupation of the Palestinians.'

[@peternorrman4213]

Keep on if you have the energy

[@myoneblackfriend3151]

I am watching this in 2020 and Donald Trump is an awful President and is bringing out the worst in this country.

[@bishopjohnshelby8462]

God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,[phone] if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you..

[@markpkessinger]

@@bishopjohnshelby8462 -- I knew Bishop Spong personally. You are a fraudster posing as Bishop Spong!

[@not4you1000]

I heard Mr. Spong say, "To announce the nature of God, is Idolatrous" Then, he himself continued to speak about Gods nature of love. Which Mr. Spong's picks and chooses bible verses, that agree with his own mind. Instead of transforming his mind, with the renewal of God's word. He also considers himself more of a 'mystist, deep down'. His belief system is so chaotic & illogical. (The source I heard him say this, was on him debating James White regarding homosexuality.

[@squarerigtwo2057]

+Steph M Are you sure that he is not Dr Spock of child-rearing fame?

[@rogerwolsey2975]

Love Spong! ... AND a needed caveat. Not all forms of at-one-ment theory are toxic or to be rejected. Many progressive Christians embrace certain forms of it. See: online article, "Atoning For Bad Theology Both Kinds: www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2018/10/atoning-for-bad-theology-both-kinds/ - Roger Wolsey, author, "Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don't like christianity"

[@CCCSpringfield]

Roger Wolsey well, consensus mundi is not a theological argument. It is like Trump's phrase, "A lot of people are saying...."

[@rogerwolsey2975]

@@CCCSpringfield Not making an argument here. Stating a fact. If you're seeking an argument, read the article I provided a link to.

[@CCCSpringfield]

Roger Wolsey If you are stating your opinion as fact, then I guess the conversation is over.

[@rogerwolsey2975]

@@CCCSpringfield It is a fact that there are many progressive Christians who embrace various theories of the atonement, including, but not limited to, the moral example/influence theory, the christus victor theory, and mystic experiences of the at-one-ment. Not my opinion, but fact.

[@rogerwolsey2975]

It is also a fact that Spong and other prominent Christian writers have at times been sloppy and conflated substitutionary theory of the atonement with all atonement theories; i.e., by sloppily saying "atonement theory" when what they are meaning is specifically the substitutionary theory of the atonement (which of course is to be rejected).

[@Woozler554]

So-called "atonement theology" will long outlast Bishop Spong.

[@olgaismag4422]

This is not a church, this political club!

[@jmar5785]

Olga Ismag so what?

[@normaodenthal8009]

So consciousness arises from matter? Seriously? This is far from having been proven conclusively. There’s still the hard problem of consciousness that has yet to be solved. The position that matter is fundamental is hardly Christian, but is actually scientific materialism.

[@CCCSpringfield]

Norma Odenthal So you personally define what is and what is not “Christian”? That seems a lot more like exaggerated narcissism than it does critical thinking.

[@normaodenthal8009]

CCCSpringfield It is a simple observation that scientific materialism is incompatible with a Christian understanding of reality. In fact, atheists argue that there is no need for God if scientific materialism is true and matter is fundamental. Somehow I fail to see how Christianity can work without God. This observation has nothing to do with narcissism but is a position that has been articulated by many critical thinkers. I do not seek to define Christianity, but merely to make the point that scientific materialism has saturated our thinking to such a degree that it is accepted without question and does little to further the Christian cause.

[@visagemk]

@@CCCSpringfield So, what is Christian? Catholic? Episcopalian? Calvinist? Baptist? Maybe Southern flavor of Baptist? Mormon? Is it a matter of personal definition of a personal God? Which "Christian" enjoys the infallible book? Only one? Can not be all. None?

[@noaheinstein2369]

CCCSpringfield , why so snarky and sarcastic? Far better to respect the woman’s intellectual observation as to the difference between a theistic, dualistic worldview, or a humanist worldview. She sees the crux of the issue but comes at it from the traditional theistic perspective. As a humanist who follows the teachings of Jesus and others, I don’t agree with her but I respect that she sees the dilemma. You may have found a way to hold these worldviews in healthy tension but why snark at her for holding to one instead of the other? Is she defining 4th century Christian doctrine - or its more emancipated Christian belief system - as anything worse, or better, than it is? I don’t think so. Perhaps your real frustration is in the fact that we have not yet found a way to describe an evolving Christian belief system so that it satisfies your appetite for larger truth but still includes some particular supernatural beliefs you embrace. That’s an understandable frustration.

[@indianrockstrat]

I certainly agree with the speaker about misusing scripture to justify discrimination etc. But the God I believe in is not constrained by modern conceptions of how much food it would take to feed 5,000 etc etc. He's describing either the absence of God, or one so powerless as to be safely ignored.

[@TorianTammas]

These greek-roman literature was written by greeks, for greeks in greek and not for Americans in the 21 century. So one lacks the understanding and knowledge of the tropes from Homer, Euripides, Vergil and the grerk philosophy.

[@dalexander913]

I have to disagree with Bishop Song about Trump, Trump is the future, not the irrelevant past. For without this type of President, this Nation is heading to a true hell.

[@MrScottyBCollects]

if you really think about it, Jesus didn't really "die" for our sins like Christianity says he did. If he really did rise from the dead (which I see no evidence for) he could've just stayed here on earth, but no. He just went back up to heaven. If you ask me he's doing much better than he ever did on earth. So stop feeling guilty all the time. Not to be arrogant but I think I kinda debunked the atonement theology.

[@roselotusmystic]

AtOneMent TransCludes Atonement 🙏

[@catherineblair550]

Amen

[@markpipenko988]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The man who doesn't understand his own sin, can't understand the Gospel.

[@TorianTammas]

It is a pole (stauros) and the Romans ececuted 100.000 or more vmcriminals like this. The only symbol that early followers of Iesous (Yeshuah aka Jesus) used was a fish. So worshiping torture devices was a very late invention.

[@markriser1]

While we cannot say that Bishop Spong is a master of Christian theology, we can say that he is a master of the argumentum ad misericordiam.

[@karachaffee3343]

Come on Shelby, you are putting priests out of a job.

[@Rabbitburnx]

I agreed at the beginning about substitution, but his understanding about the gospel is false. Christ released us from bondage to sin that we may follow him in love and purity of heart. Sin is transgression of the law. Read the bible and understand how to live. Sin not my child and walk in love.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Sin, in biblespeak, is the moon.

[@bishopjohnshelby8462]

God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,[phone] if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you......

[@Doriesep6622]

Nonsense

[@vikingz2000]

The fellow is preaching a Gospel of too many Straw Men.

[@lionofjudahlambofgod9132]

This can explain the reality of the judgement and the need for Christ. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJe0m6mrisSUipI

[@damewright5753]

Decoding is back to humanity.

[@bishopjohnshelby8462]

God bless you my beloved. the moment I want through my comment I saw a revelation concerning you, your family and things around you. my dear, I saw God favour, success, joy, breakthrough. behind that I saw more spiritual attacks, from the enemies working on holding such blessings, causing your set back, but you are lefted above any spiritual tower. so the Lord is instructing you to sow a seed of faith into to a motherless babies home.(orphanage) this is going to be a covenant seed between you and God. the Lord ask me to tell you before the end of,3 three days, you should try as much as possible to sow the seed the into godstime motherless babies home (orphanage) located in somewhere in Nigeria to bring spiritual and divine breakthrough in your life and that of your family because there is power in sowing of seed contact the (orphanage) home management or you can also WhatsApp them on this numbers,[phone] if you are through with this let me know, so I will give you guide line on how you should pray God bless you....

[@lynnmorrison4173]

One day soon my Saviour, my Redeemer and My Lord will stand on the earth and all of Creation will bow the knee to Him. All mouths will be silent . I am a sinner saved by Grace . I believe God and his word and long to see the Lord Jesus Christ face to face . All nonsense like this will be silenced. And professing themselves to be wise became fools.

[@TorianTammas]

Isn't it interesting that whatever you believe in us what god is? He is always your opinion and does as you desire. Who is the "leader" in this relationship? Either you are the sock puppet of god or he is yours. Nevertheless you and he are one as he says always what you want.

[@Magic-lg9lw]

Less than 100K watched it.

[@bozhidarbalkas5547]

Living Bible, Acts 2:17, "In the last days i will pour out my holy spirit on all mankind". This contradicts biblical teachings that only believers in jesus or god would go to heaven. For how ar nonbelievers in jesus who comprise, say, 80% of all mankind go to hell after receiving the holy spirit? According to bible, holy spirit is god or jesus; so, hows jesus gonna burn in hell forever! 2 Corinthians 4:3, "If the good news we preach is hidden from anyone, it is hidden from one who's on the road to eternal death". This is very good message to believers and nonbelievers because bible will not torture or burn eternally anyone!!