Biden's Antitrust Case Against Apple Is Truly Stupid | Reason Roundtable | March 25th, 2024

[@coke8077]

The main justification for this suit should be for Apple’s terrible right to repair policies. They make it absurdly difficult and expensive to fix your devices yourself or have a third party fix it.

[@docequis9796]

The purpose of the lawsuit is to strong-arm apple into allowing NSA into users data. The government wants power... they don't need money... they can just print that.

[@macsnafu]

So don't buy Apple products, like most of us! Don't let them benefit from bad policies.

[@RabeltCorez]

so you are abusing laws for a completely different reason, great

[@coke8077]

@@macsnafu I support this also, but the vast majority of consumers are very ignorant to electronics repair and think electronics are just a disposable item that can't be fixed.

[@authenticallysuperficial9874]

If Apple wants to actively decrease the value of their product by making them more costly to repair, then they open the door to competition.

[@vahlte]

I have an iPhone, mainly 'cause it's small (the 12 mini) as well as an Android, but I do find Apple's practices annoying and anticompetitive. Their approach to apps and web browsers are much more annoying than iMessage though. My country (Norway) is about where the US is in market share for the iPhone and people in Gen Z here do care about the colour of the bubbles, but that isn't the issue. Android unlike iOS has an openness to apps from other sources than the official app store. This is something Android shares with Windows, Mac OS, and Linux. It's a way to treat your users like adults, and it means the phone you buy is yours more than the property of company you bought it from. Google still makes it so that installing an app from elsewhere is a small process of warnings and permissions, but you get to do it. So if this action or what the EU is doing right now with the DMA works (which so far doesn't cover Norway), then I do think it will lead to more competition on the iOS platform and subsequently a better user experience for most Apple users as well as those who don't have iPhones but interact with people that do. This is not to say that it's right for the government to involve itself like this. As the doctor (Gillespie) points out, this is a pretty functional market. If you value more freedom, and an overall better user experience then Android is an option. You can get phones that are about as good as iPhones for less, or phones a fair bit better for about the same, and while the US doesn't have the same diversity of brands as the rest of the world, you do have Samsung Galaxy and Google Pixel phones delivering this quality competition. Were Apple to truly stagnate a lot people have places to go.

[@kwallace114]

What about right to repair?!!! Window phones so they actually even exist anymore…. A kindle is not a phone why did you even bring it into the conversation?!🤦‍♂️

[@theondono]

Kindle has a bigger share of the ebook market than Apple has of the smartphone market, so it’s perfectly relevant. Right to repair is such a misnomer it’s not even funny. You’ve always had the “right to repair”, what a lot of interested parties are pushing for is unrestricted access to designs, supply chains and discounted prices for parts. “Right to repair” is also NOT part of the lawsuit, so it’s you who is bringing up shit that has no place in the conversation. This lawsuit is nothing new, Google has always been very pliable to regulators, that’s why it gets a pass, but Apple has so far kept them at arms length. They attacked Meta until they became VERY pliable as well, and now they want Apple to fall in line.

[@mplayne]

Didn't EU sue Apple?

[@OfficialCrashnet]

Yeah. The EU uses these lawsuits to shore up their budgets.

[@OfficialCrashnet]

The antitrust case is as dumb and shouldn’t be happening. But to be fair, this conversation was really bad as well. Zero understanding of tech and the market of tech.

[@hnhl2770]

No. These mega-corporations in quasi-monopolistic dominant positions only exist because they are very good at... regulatory arbitrage. Yes, it's not about how good their products are, but how good their CEO's are at exploiting the market distortions that the State puts in place, and especially at buying legislators, to their favor. We've seen this time and time again - the best product isn't necessarily the one that prevails. As a consequence, since they only exist due to the State, it is only fair that the State dismantles them too if they fall out of favor.

[@RabeltCorez]

ah yes, the eye for eye behaviour, such an advanced ideology, I suppose you also love the USSR dismantling of their society

[@Tubester-17]

The jokes lol 😂🎉love it

[@matthewk87]

Regarding the Apple suit..... I feel like limiting access to Facetime is a bigger deal than messages showing up as "blue" or "green". And even then, while anti-competitive (like what most of Apple has done through their history), I don't think that is reasonable grounds for government interference.

[@skeleton_craftGaming]

you also can't upgrade the firmware of your airpods without an Iphone... NGL having Apple and innovative in the same sentence made me laugh a little. Apple makes good products then charges 90% too much.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Get an Android

[@BelamarEutravos]

@@Justin_Beaver564 Get a flip phone. Save yourself from being so addicted to all the BS noise that comes with "Smart"Phones.

[@Kazekoge101]

@@BelamarEutravos Get a FLOSS (Free, libre open source software) phone. Best of both worlds. Also most Libertarian thing to do.

[@BelamarEutravos]

@@Kazekoge101 While I'm not saying you're wrong... You're still at the whim of the big cell carriers. That's certainly a step in the right direction if you insist on owning a phone to begin with. But, nothing is perfect.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I got a Trump donation ad. Very appropriate.

[@HerrSchrodinger]

I for one welcome this lawsuit.

[@docequis9796]

Nsa wants control of devices... that's all.

[@BigDan23229]

Love that Nick has the 4 color pen. Just noticed it 😂

[@mplayne]

Competition is Good

[@robertjones7327]

Apple hasn’t paid enough in tribute

[@docequis9796]

The purpose of the suit is to allow usa intelligence agencies controlled by the deep state billionaire elites access to Apple users devices for tracking locations, purchases, conversations and pushing their propaganda masquerading as social media.

[@abramgaller2037]

The problem is not monopoly in the high tech area, rather it is intellectual property .

[@homewall744]

Don't fall for GDP as a measure (the stat is unreliable/manipulated by itself). In the US military empire of massive debt, GDP is 40% purchased by government force, meaning only 60% of our productivity is related to what people and businesses want themselves.

[@theloniousMac]

What does anyone expect from this justice department?

[@docequis9796]

The intelligence agencies are just trying to get into apple users devices. It is what they have done since the early cell phone Motorola antitrust lawsuit days... this time the entire Washington DC DNC is on board and a few Rinos. Back then it was more 50: 50.

[@Head-ck4hu]

I'm 65. I have never owned any Apple product. Predatory pricing and their app store and developer policies is okay with Libertarians? Apple hasn't made the next big thing in 20 years.

[@michaelhutchings6602]

Being in the App Store is a choice not a right.

[@cphoover11]

EXACTLY

[@gregdaugherty6065]

The fact that you have never purchased an Apple product proves that Apple does not have a monopoly. We are not better off allowing our Federal Government to initiate force against companies simply because we don’t like their products or are offended by their pricing.

[@CAndrewK]

It’s not ok, but I prefer a company that overcharges for hardware to virtually every other tech company that makes their money off of your data and sharing it with the government. Apple is one of the only companies that has stood up to the FBI

[@Head-ck4hu]

@michaelhutchings6602 I guess you haven't read the Sherman Antitrust Act. It is predatory.

[@Leon-qo2vl]

What is your opinion on right to repair and ownership of your device?

[@cphoover11]

Seems pretty classic liberal /libertarian to me… that we have ownership of our own devices

[@RabeltCorez]

right to repair is not part of the lawsuit, so absolutely irrelevant, and abusing a law for the sake of it is not a good thing

[@The_Infinite_Squirrel]

If you want the "right" to repair, you should use your right to not buy an Iphone. By purchasing the Apple product you agree to not be able to repair your phone.

[@cphoover11]

​ @t.i.squirrel9704 They have a monopoly over repair shops, not for technical reasons, but for anti-competitive strategies employed by them, monopolizing the hardware supply chain. in addition they make the security situation worse for other makers by refusing to adopt standards support e2e encryption across makers... Everything they do is anti competitive. Microsoft was found to be in violation of antitrust laws for pre-installing internet explorer... I'm not sure how Apple evades these lawsuits when the entire iOS is a walled garden from which they milk app developers dry by taking a percentage of app sales.

[@garthor]

@13:23, he's talking about the tech market being fluid and full of competitors, but in reality, tech in most sectors is a duopoly at best... and once it makes it into that duopoly standpoint, competition stagnates... Phones? Your choices are iPhone or Android... they haven't meaningfully changed in like a decade Personal Computers? Your choices are Windows or Mac... they haven't meaningfully changed in two decades... Game Consoles? ... ok... you got me here... you have *three choices*!! Switch, XBox, or Play Station... but realistically, with console exclusives, you probably need at least two to get the full experience... Not to mention, the number of games which just don't support couch play anymore, so you need a full second setup to play stuff like Burnout Paradice with your friends. Personal Internet? Because of local regulations, you're super lucky if you get more than one choice, which is usually some version of comcast on aging coper lines that we paid them to refurbish and replace, but they haven't done yet. Even browsers... You have Firefox, or Chrome... or some flavor of chrome someone's put their own spin on... The most recent Microsoft case is about MS buying up more and more game companies so they can compete against Sony's playstation, with the fear of more console exclusives... which is a real threat. Not only does it create a monopoly in the console space, locking consumers more into their products, but also on the labor front... There are fewer places to work and to be innovative, because one company owns them all.

[@garthor]

All it would take for Apple to become a monopoly in the mobile marketplace, is for google to decide on a whim they aren't doing android anymore... Something they have done with various other products before, and something they will do again repeatedly... They have a long history of deleting things from their product line that aren't working out... Do I think that's likely to happen with Android? No, probably not... Google has a good thing going with it, and they're making boatloads of money off of the play store by owning the platform... but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

[@owomushi_vr]

Its not stupid. What is stupid is adding rcs to avoid the lawsuit. After being smug . Then not including encryption to the rcs standard. Google added rcs to avoid this same lawsuit. Apple deserves it especially for not adopting cellular standards.

[@docequis9796]

The NSA wants control of their devices to spy and control Apple users. 😂

[@CAndrewK]

Google didn’t make their RCS messages end to end encrypted until like 5 months ago, and what cellular standards?

[@docequis9796]

@@CAndrewK the standard is allowing the NSA into all apple devices to track users. Meaning that is the reason for the antitrust suit... it is just a political play by deep state who controls the DNC and a few Rinos.

[@owomushi_vr]

@@CAndrewK RCS is a cellular standard idiot. It's been part of the whole deal way before Google pushed it to Android. It's not hard to deploy your own servers . Even apple won't adopt encryption. And I had encryption for years on RCS so what are you even talking about. Just because you have a iPhone doesn't mean you know how long things was in place

[@owomushi_vr]

@@docequis9796 adding encryption doesn't mean they can control anything. If anything it adds more security to consumers. Do you even know what encryption is?

[@xenclam216]

The doj is still pissed about the whole fbi phone unlock debacle

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ this is not libertarian it’s Liberace

[@rdr6269]

Last time I was here one debater and two moderators ganged up on the other debater. Why am I here then? Good question. Let's see how long I stay.

[@homewall744]

The minimum wage is price fixing and is anti-competitive, requiring all employers to pay the same low wage without regard to customers, employees or owners of the business.

[@abramgaller2037]

The workers over their lifetimes are the "real" losers as a result of minimum wage.

[@ChopperChad]

Minimum wage is not wage setting. It’s the baseline wage. It’s not a requirement to pay that wage.

[@chrisocony]

I'm glad Apple leads many people to overspend and help this consumer driven economy continue to hum. It's their choice!

[@qigong1001]

The Apple vs Epic case truly clarified to the world that Apple is a monopoly. The judge eve said this in regards to its colluding with Google to charge exactly same prices (duopoly). What was highly disturbing was how judge Gonzales seemed to change course and essentially sided with Apple in her decision at judgement. There was no legal basisto do that. SUS.

[@Web3Future333]

Imagine defending corporations that use slave and child labor bruh

[@Barskor1]

But Apple is not being attacked by the government for those reasons nor is Reason defending Apple they promote Android phones in this vid so way to go barking for no purpose.

[@The_Infinite_Squirrel]

Strawman, bruh.

[@templeodoom4634]

Way to sell out

[@trappedcat3615]

You like big brother controlling the market?

[@templeodoom4634]

@@trappedcat3615 not remotely, but I think ReasonTV does

[@rdr6269]

@@trappedcat3615 I think government has a role to play in keeping the market free, open, and competitive. A free, open and competitive market is exactly capitalism.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Apple isn't an actual monopoly unlike the two party system

[@noone8418]

@@trappedcat3615Big brother government or big brother tech? Oh, that’s right…there’s no difference.

[@lmcfigs4874]

Biden’s the lead on this case?

[@chrisocony]

Merrick is a good name for a Patriot. A Merrick-an!

[@CAndrewK]

I don’t mind Apple getting slapped with *a* lawsuit for anticompetitive practices, regardless of how libertarian that statement may be. But Google and Microsoft are way more anticompetitive than Apple, this is just an objective fact.

[@tedreyer1561]

Wouldn’t that be anti-libertarian?

[@homewall744]

"Green" isn't because it's Android or non-iPhone. It means the message was sent by SMS, which is the texting standard and is non-encrypted end-to-end. Blue is iMessage.

[@haleyandabigailsdad]

I got 10 minutes into Marlowe, awful.

[@FifthConcerto]

This has gone beyond the irrelevance of first world problems into the insanity of elitist prick problems.

[@ChrisSt.Prince]

Bravo 👏🏻

[@cphoover11]

Libertarianism depends on a fair and competitive market

[@cato451]

37:00 Peter's blanket statement that Social Security as a great investment is just plan wrong. The real answer is far more nuanced. I am very disappointed that he doesn't understand it. The ROI on social security depends on when you retire, how long you live, and your income level. For people who retired prior to a decade ago and who live in the 0-70% income percentiles Social Security provides a better chance of having income throughout your life than investing on your own and hoping for a big enough return. But, if you retire from now or in the future your ROI is much less --even negative. And if you earn more income then you have a better shot of your own investments providing more money depending on your investment choices and your returns. People are starting to die sooner that previously calculated. If I had the choice retrospectively the I would choose to take the money I and my employers pumped into SS and invest it on my own. I would have done SIGNIFICANTLY better than what I will get in a few years.

[@micahkilpatrick9924]

Kahngress!!! Libertarian Star Trek.

[@Lopfff]

~41:00 …because of the implication

[@indiarising3891]

If you go about most comment sections, you'll always find Apple & Android Fanboys at each others throats...The point every one is missing here, is that ultimately that the lawsuit will be decided on one thing only ..Whether Apple violated the sherman act or not. Microsoft essentially commited coersion to promote their OWN software bundle on OTHERS hardware, that's why they faced action in their anti trust lawsuit, Google has essentially done the same , that's why they lost their case against epic. Apple however controls the entire experience hardware , software from top to bottom which is why THEY more or less won their lawsuit against epic, with only a slap on their wrist regarding the anti-steering rule. If Apple is to be declared a monopoly , congress will literally have to amend the sherman act or create a new one , like the EU has. Other than that the only outcome i see for this lawsuit is either apple narrowly wins or settles the matter with certain concessions like opening up the apple ecosystem to other companies wallets and watches & allowing cloud streaming of games. As far as messaging is concerned china has more or less forced them to adopt RCS. Removal of App Store gate keeping and allowing super apps is a long shot , but only time will tell

[@ScottishAtheist]

I feel like nobody here actually understands what the issue is. It's not about a green bubble or whatever, did you ignore the fact that you get reduce quality video and audio? For no technical reason btw. It's not Android customers that suffer, it's Apple customers. I swear you're being disingenuous, or is it illiteracy?

[@sethhill5689]

Just give me my balance of my SS account (along with my deceased wife's), I'm ok with it not being as much as if I am supposedly going to get. I can grow it more than SS would. Nick missed out on singing Buzzcocks' What Do I Get?

[@VeniVidiVid]

It’s not a market failure; it’s a market preference.

[@BxChef.207]

That dudes ridiculous hairstyle is too distracting for me to even listen to what he has to say. I never thought I could be this shallow and cruel. It reminds me of a Making Fiends episode in which a wig/toupee takes ahold of one of Charlottes teachers. If I can be a swiss banker!

[@jamespier7801]

I have a theory that 97% of Americans can’t be made to care about this one egregious overreach, as heinous as it is. The whole unholy mess needs to be made real and immediate for people and we can start to build a resistance movement.