Big Problems In Electric Pickup Land (IMPROVED AUDIO) - AAH 673

[@poopscoopproductions3177]

“Someone down in engineering.” This phrase tells you all you need to know. At Tesla, the engineers are at the top, and physics is the final authority. At GM, the suits with MBAs are at the top, and their ego is the final authority.

[@davidhancock91]

The biggest ego on the planet is in charge at Telsa. The cyber truck was built purely to satisfy the Bosses ego. Hilarious

[@linmal2242]

@@davidhancock91 Spot on. A vanity project, to reinforce all the other model vanities of the owner !

[@BjorckBengt]

You have to admit he has a great sense for what will sell though. Model Y is the worlds best selling car model and you have to be in severe denial if you do not realise that the Cybertruck will become the worlds best selling Pickup truck. I promise, you do not get 2 million reservations unless there is a serious demand. Of course there will be some cancellation bit new orders will flow in at a faster pace as people beyond nerds become aware of the CT. @@davidhancock91

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@davidhancock91 The biggest ego on the planet ALSO has the BEST selling vehicle on the Entire Planet. Outselling ANY American makers and blows away the number of F-150s made. Ford is going down if they can’t get their EVs profitable

[@bobdobs23]

Stupid trolling@@davidhancock91

[@Dettaärjag]

It will be really fun in the years to 2030 to watch how wrong those guys are. I wonder how many of them believed that Tesla would sell almost 500 000 cars in 2020? Or that the model Y would be the best selling car in the world 2023.

[@rsamd]

Those guya are old farts. Tell those rural farmers that they can drive 250miles for 15 bucks with almost no maintance. They dont have to drive to a gas station, they charge at home. unmatched convenience. And on long trips over 250miles you have supercharger. Just buy a Tesla. Everything else on long trips is a pain in the ass.

[@perryreasch1209]

with lots of recalls ??

[@danubiosalas4231]

@@perryreasch1209recalls that get fixed overnight by software?as opposed to “just a few” that require three hours or three days in the dealer?

[@davidc2838]

@@perryreasch1209Recalls are ALREADY fixed. It was an Over The Air (OTA) Update. Done!

[@drock6627]

So this year Toyota sold more than 10x the vehicles that Tesla sold, yet Tesla stock is worth more than all other auto manufactures combined. How does this make sense? Especially since Tesla has delivered on NONE of the BS Elon has promoted. Can you say Theranos?

[@mediacafeonlinellc8728]

GM is not building up a war chest to fund the transition- Instead, they are buying back stock and paying higher dividends…

[@Dularr]

Buying back stock doesn't eliminate the stock certificates. They still exist. They could sell them. Use them for loan collateral. Use them for compensation.

[@mediacafeonlinellc8728]

@@Dularr As part of the accelerated share repurchase program GM said it would work with its banking partners to immediately repurchase and retire $6.8 billion worth of its stock, and it plans to finish the share repurchase program by the end of next year.

[@JayMcKinsey]

That isn't at all how stock is treated after it is bought back. @@Dularr A share buyback is when companies pay shareholders to buy back their own shares, cancel them and, ultimately, reduce share capital. While fewer shares remain in circulation, shareholders get both a larger stake in the company and a higher return on future dividends.

[@Dularr]

@@JayMcKinsey but you can then deilute the outstanding shares by by offering new shares in the marketplace. Stock buyback to increase value, offer(sell) stock to raise cash.

[@JayMcKinsey]

With a net gain/loss of 0.@@DularrIf it worked like you say the companies would do nothing else but this and become infinitely rich. But of course that is not what happens or how it works.

[@patdill]

They are missing the CyberTruck value proposition over ice. When the model 3 was coming out I created a spreadsheet to list out about 20 key factors: safety, headlights, audio, expected battery & motor longevity, maintenance, charging costs, performance, technology, charging infrastructure, … I was blown away, most stats were leading or near the top. I challenge these gentlemen to do the same with CyberTruck, then they might understand the true value that so few currently know.

[@toddfredriksen5210]

John - Great conversation. Time to bring in Sean and other younger contributors, as they have a different view compared to conventional auto analysts. We see again and again that conventional auto gets it wrong.

[@martydouglas1802]

So true. The younger generation wants ease of use and value and have no history to use as examples to color their opinions with.

[@danubiosalas4231]

“Nooo, the young don’t know nothing, because they are young”

[@pnketia]

Even if one out of three vehicles sold are electric that means the ICE vehicle market share will shrink by that amount and given profits are so tight for 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers it is a given that they will raise their prices to compensate for the lower volume which ultimately will make ICE vehicles go up in price. Also these auto manufacturers will have to continue buying carbon offset credits to meet EPA standards and guess who they will be buying those credits from?

[@kylekleman]

That’s exactly right about supplier cost. They mention “studies” that show how automakers can take $10,000 off an electric vehicle cost. If you take away $10,000 in cost for making EVs, they are going to be the same or lower cost compared to ICE. Then you add in the projected price increases on all combustion powertrain components from suppliers and stranded overhead at their own factories, In a few short years it’s actually going to be more profitable to make a battery electric vehicle. Especially since BEV vehicles have such incredible manufacturing subsidies for the IRA. They laughed at the idea of passing on the savings to the customer. But I think they will be forced to compete due to Tesla, Rivian and possibly one of the legacy companies breaking rank and offering a lower cost because they can and want more share.

[@Jasonfallen71]

If dealerships stopped putting $10k markups on their EV pickups these discussions would have a bit of reality in them. But these guys just dance around the most important issue here: only early adopters are buying at the dealers inflated pricing. No one normal wants to just hand over an extra $5-10k when they buy a truck especially when every penny of that markup goes to the dealer who had nothing to do with creating the truck or even selling it! Line workers get nothing. The owner of the dealership group is the only one that gets the extra dough and it makes lots of people sick so they refuse to buy all those Lightnings that are rusting on dealers lots. How can these guys ignore such a massive issue regarding EV pickup sales?! The first 20 minutes of this episode are just cringeworthy if you prefer honest, educated opinions being discussed.

[@liosh2]

Ford dealership in my area is adding $30000 markup on every Lightning. They are purposely sabotaging the EV transition

[@martydouglas1802]

5 or ten? I see that the dealers want 20 to 25000 over list. That is what will keep people away untill it's too late and companies like Tesla make less expensive versions of what truck buyers like.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@liosh2They are really only sabotaging FORDs EV transitions. GM and Ford are likely to go under again.

[@wil68799]

This conversation exists as a preface to what the CyberTruck might do to change the industry. As people with money buy the CyberTruck they increase the market share of the Tesla in the truck vertical. As they take more share the other manufacturers will lose more and more money. It’s highly possible that traditional auto loses enough market share for consumer trucks that they shift entirely to commercial vehicle manufacturing…… the consumer truck buyer will have very few non EV options. I say this as an ICE owner and as a realist. Autoline has typically missed the boat on the transition to EV’s and has a propensity lean heavy into the days past. They also bring people on that are anti EV skewing the conversation. Tesla is making a ton of profit only selling EV’s and as more and more Cybertrucks are sold the price will come down just list it has for all their other cars.

[@Mpr47276]

Yep these guys are like dinosaurs talking about the existence of asteroids.

[@tedg1609]

Tesla needs to vastly increase their production of good EVs. Clearly, these old guys are neither willing, nor capable of making good EVs. The only path to the future is to drive GM & F into bankruptcy. 😢

[@teceltecel]

This looks to me like three Kodak guys talking about the ridiculousness of digital cameras. The appearance of the CT distracts people from what it really is. A revolutionary solution for a lot of problems trucks face. When the superiority of the ct sinks in its look will become secondary. Finally it will become a seal of quality. Yes you might see the ct in Paris. But the ct will also be there where the toughest jobs and hardest challenges are. Stronger, tougher, safer and better performing than anything else out there. Let us have a look at this episode in 3 years 😂

[@wil68799]

@@teceltecel 💯💯💯💯💯

[@sigsire9054]

No disrespect but these gents look like the f150 and the ram1500 Silverado gmc trucks of the past. The next generation will buy this truck in droves and the re$ale is going to be loco if tesla can't build them fast enough.

[@jordanschultz2232]

This has comical timing as Tesla has just released indepth engineering videos of their truck. Legacy is stuck in the mud.

[@rgeniec]

“It’s something they didn’t ask for”. If Henry Ford asked his customers what they want they would have told him a faster horse. It doesn’t matter what these old farmers want. It matters what our kids and grandkids want. 🇺🇸✌️🚀⚡️💪

[@leerjet1868]

Farmers = Luddites. The world is full of them.

[@Mpr47276]

🎯

[@Mpr47276]

The 🤖🤖🤖 are coming and they’re really going to redefine your “value propositions.”

[@bobbybishop5662]

That's the dumbest comment I've ever seen.

[@rotaryenginepete]

Both gas and battery powered cars already existed long before Henry Ford came along. In fact, he actually chose ICE over EV. Maybe get your history right before jumping to insanely stupid conclusions...

[@gjohnston6052]

Talking points from Exxon mobile, range,charge time. Many will say they look foward never needing to go to a gas stations again.

[@ha3516]

The average ICE pickup costs $66K I just read. How is the CyberTruck not a good value proposition? Did you see it beat F350 diesel in sled pull? And beat Porsche 911 in drag race, while towing an identical 911? Did you see the side impact crash test where the doors were simply dented? The current price is intentionally high because a lower price would leave billions on the table with this much demand. Price will drop later, as with all the other Tesla models recently, once manufacturing is at scale.

[@bobbybishop5662]

Pulling a pulling sled is nothing like pulling a regular trailer that weighs the same weight. You know nothing about towing.

[@pierredussault9116]

@@bobbybishop5662 The Cybertruck can tow anything you want. And don't tell me that you don't need to stop after 4 hours of driving to pee and charge 10-15 min to reach destination. With a Tesla and the supercharger, range and long stop are not a problem. It is now faster to reach a destination with a Tesla than with an ice car/truck even for a 500 miles journey.

[@bobbybishop5662]

@@pierredussault9116 🤣🤣🤣 well when you get one we can tie on to 25k and see who can go further without stopping. At that weight and 80mph going up and down grades will see who comes out on top.

[@pierredussault9116]

@@bobbybishop5662 Even if your truck/car can do 1000 miles without stoping, are you honest enough to say that after 4-5 hours of driving you have to stop to pee, walk or eat?

[@bobbybishop5662]

The sled pull was a farse , just like the now fully debunked Semi video. Pulling a sled and pulling a trailer is not even close to the same.

[@CC-yr2nx]

I have a friend that as a bricklayer company and he ordered 4 cybertruck. He is sick and tired of the F250 and 350 that look like crap after 6 weeks on the job. The cybertruck is made of stainless steel plates and rugged like crazy, so he hopes that they will last him 4 years instead of 2. Business wise it is a no brainer. So what you are saying that the CT is not a work truck is not right.

[@RD-ce6bb]

Your friend should replace his employees.....not his trucks.

[@CC-yr2nx]

@@RD-ce6bb You either have good fast employees that make you money but damage the trucks, or slow ones that will make you lose money? He wants tougher trucks and fast employees so he will make more money. The equation is simple,

[@bobbybishop5662]

He's going to be disappointed , any work truck is gonna get beat up . If he thinks it's dent and scratch proof he's sadly mistaken.

[@CC-yr2nx]

@@bobbybishop5662 the proof is in the pudding! We will see.

[@Top12Boardsport]

Cyber truck should last for at least 10 - 20 years

[@danharold3087]

I like the Ram Charger but it is not a EV. It is a diesel over electric like a loco. You still have a tailpipe, burn DEF and change oil. It is a way more complex system. People are moaning that the CyberTruck did not deliver the $40K truck. Realistically nobody did. Most understand that the CT prices will go down with production. Not only is this a pickup but it is also a big SUV with one heck of a trunk. With the variable ratio steering in front and rear steering it will steer like a sedan. I see people buying it for use as their car. Yes you will see it at church. Also remember tesla has no dealer markup. Dealers are not promoting EVs they are a hindrance. They want you to keep coming in for service.

[@frederickstirnkorb3094]

The Ram charger is an electric vehicle with a generator. Serial hybrid best of both worlds electric drive train with ice range. I would shrink the pack to 60 kwh and price it competively. I would by that truck in a heartbeat.

[@AnarchyEnsues]

Less than 2% of the population is involved in farming.

[@johnryan6003]

The Stone Age did not end because we ran out of stones. It ended because metal became more and more available.

[@NicoVeenkamp]

I hear a lot about value proposition, but nothing about including total cost of ownership. Less time in the workshop should be an attractive idea for rural people.

[@shawnpa]

That's true of all systems except the battery.A bad battery is a totaled vehicle.

[@Jasonfallen71]

Dealers are predatory and desperate to rip off every single person who walks in the door. Dealers are why trad OEM EV’s only sell to brand lovers who are also early adopters. Well, the EV’s themselves are not good relative to a Tesla but good enough for early adopters, I got a Leaf in 2015 when no Tesla was available in my price range but I moved into a Tesla the minute I could afford it. The guest comment that OEM’s would keep all the savings they might squeeze out over years of small, incremental changes to production or lowered costs has a point but it’sNOT good for consumers. That comment let me know that that dude KNOWS something of these truths but is unwilling to share them. We all know dealers are what’s killing EV adoption by the masses. It’s why everyone in the EV biz is suffering or Tesla (or BYD but that’s only happening in China). This conversation is just ignoring several elephants in the room. It would be impressive if it weren’t rather infuriating too. The guests skills at ignoring reality is remarkable. I thought Autoline had gotten over this weird industry insider way of dealing with the EV transition: ignore ignore ignore Woof on this episode.

[@GG-si7fw]

That is why I thought legacy manufacturers should of directly replaced ICE vehicles with EV's instead of coming up with a tweener and a new name. The Mach E should of replaced the Edge and MKS. The Ionic 5/EV6 should of directly replaced the equivalents for Hyundai and KIA. This way the ICE model line gets trimmed by EV's and the dealerships can't play the segment against each other. The only thing left is to recommend greater service intervals, like 12,000 mile oil changes, 36,000 miles for filters and alignment, and not have a more severe type of service which the dealers would use against their customers

[@johnryan6003]

Ripping of every $ they can, plus overpriced parts, is their entire business model.

[@47solar43]

This conversation won’t age well. How about considering full cost of ownership of an ICE truck? The argument that gas is “cheap” at ~$2.80/gallon in the middle of the country is a moot point. What about the ton of ongoing maintenance costs?

[@andrewsaint6581]

Diesel in the UK (2nd Dec) is £1.519 a litre £6.90 a gallon (at 4.54609 lits gall) = $8.63. Evs are way more efficient than gas guzzlers so the rest of the world will go that way.

[@mauraece]

@@andrewsaint6581Diesel is $3.65 in the United States

[@Ajax776]

California is a huge market for trucks, a huge market for Teslas, it will also be a huge market for CT. As always, the rest of the US market will catch up over time. The price is right ✨

[@Mpr47276]

These chumps act like government policy and regulation is the only force acting on the transition to BEVs. And they fail to recognize another possibility - that these OEMs go bankrupt before they can successfully transition to making compelling, affordable BEVs at scale.

[@ruly999]

Also they completely ignore the real reason for accelerating the transition to electrification: global warming, they continue to focus solely on short term profits

[@hayduke4589]

It’s as if they think Tesla is a black swan. Rivian is still going through growing pains and there are other startups the public hasn’t heard from yet. The only thing saving Detroit from a Kodak moment is government intervention. Chinese companies would put them out of business if they were allowed to compete on a level field. But free market… /s

[@davidc2838]

@@ruly999Actually the biggest reason is to get OFF the Addiction to Fossil Fuels. The OPEC+ Cartel controls OIL / Gasoline Prices and can jack up the price or cause it to plummet (and Bankrupt US Drillers). Switching to EVs also drops pollution, lung cancer, respiratory illnesses and heart disease, because Ground Transportation is one of the worst causes of Air Pollution. Eventually WARS over OIL go away, if all Ground Transportation switches to EVs.

[@mickeymcintire7621]

Imagine an AI conversation with this panel. S curve of adoption has never been seen or heard from this group. 😂

[@liosh2]

I love my GMC 2500 but once my Rivian R1T arrives it’s gone. EVs are the only way to go for a better future for my children and grandchildren.

[@jamesdillon3320]

JOHN!! I have followed you since you were a "syndicated print automotive analyst" and you have had a great legacy in the automotive world !! Three "old farts" trying to analyze the future of the EV market and TESLA are "WAAAAAAY" out of your collective leagues !! The automotive worldwide paradigm shift is taking place at "light speed"!! You old "codgers" (and I include myself in this category") will be "stupefied" at the bloodbath that is coming down the track !! Get ready for a "WILD RIDE"!! Greetings from Canada!! GIDDYUP!!

[@johnryan6003]

Anyone remember what Nokia and BlackBerry were saying in 2007 after iPhone introduced? “Too expensive, no key pad, phone market is already full, who needs apps if you can go on the web, only on ATT services (analogous to issue of limited non Tesla do not have access to superchargers)

[@dansanger5340]

To be fair, Apple initially envisioned web apps to be the future. They didn't add 3rd party native apps until later.

[@johnryan6003]

There are more people living within 100’miles of the oceans and the gulf. Than all other states combined. Most truck buyers live there. There business are construction, lawn care, plumbers, electricians, and, yes, farmers.

[@rok1475]

These crystal ball reading sessions are quite amusing.

[@jamesnichols5183]

A cyber truck would work for me. I pull a 5000 lb trailer short and medium distances twice weekly and haul light loads a few times a week for short distances. Live in dense suburbs with lots of air pollution and stop and go traffic. If I trailered 8k lbs long distance and lived in open country I would not likely be interested. Now the math is my only problem.

[@Gargamel-n-Rudmilla]

Wow I bet these same idiots said the same thing when the model 3 and Y came out. The old never learn do they. 😅

[@ZipZoomZip]

Ask him what the best-selling vehicle of 2023 will be globally. I would be shocked if he correctly names the Tesla Model Y. Interestingly, it's not even Tesla's most affordable vehicle, the Model 3 sedan undercuts it by several thousand dollars. This busts wide open the myth that EV's in general, and Tesla in particular, are too expensive for mass adoption. The best-selling car in the world doesn't lie.

[@hayduke4589]

It’s like they think Tesla is a black swan. Rivian is going through growing pains now and there are more coming.

[@brendanlewisisme]

Nobody asked for smart phones and lot of people said their flip phones were just fine.

[@srercrcr]

Good topic BUT......aren't most pickups sold in suburbia?

[@johnryan6003]

Person he spoke to was willing to buy $85,000 luxury truck. The cyber truck dual motor 4 wheel version has better towing, better load capacity more interior space, a let to charge your house or another EV better acceleration. That cyber truck costs less than high end ICE trucks.

[@RB-pi3jl]

It's like no one on this panel has ever heard of the adoption "S-curve". The only thing holding back the ev adoption (because prices will come down) will be if the OEM's go bankrupt, because Tesla will make a ton of ev's but can't take up all the slack.

[@GG-si7fw]

So the rural America in the midwest was polled, not California. California alone, would be the 5th largest market globally. Midwest is how big? The panel makes consideration as to Tesla's manufacturing edge over legacy auto. John is fully aware of the Model Y's ease of manufacturing vs legacy auto.

[@rgeniec]

No problems at all. 2mm people waiting including me!

[@TimKennedy1]

Me too

[@Carguytct]

@@TimKennedy1 Me three.

[@ZipZoomZip]

@@Carguytct Me four. Cybertruck will replace our 2010 F-150 used to haul firewood, get horses to the vet and to move furniture, appliances and building materials from Home Depot and the local lumber yard. Also to haul loads of brush to the shredder. My neighbor uses his trucks to haul boats to various local boat launches for both fresh and salt water fishing. My brother uses his truck to haul pack animals and bird dogs for local hunting trips. John's guest doesn't understand that the American pickup market is huge and is far larger and more diverse than he can imagine. Trying to pigeonhole the users of American pickups into some city slickers and some highly conservative farmers is so short-sighted it's laughable. Cybertruck will steal sales from legacy manufacturers in ever growing numbers until even the farmers, plumbers and electricians are buying them. It's going to really sting legacy auto to lose a significant number of their highest profit margin sales.

[@johnryan6003]

BYD plus Tesla combined BEV’s are increasing sales 50% year over year Don’t seem to be slowing down at all

[@fjalics]

My prediction is rural areas will be the last to get EVs, and the first to get rid of gas. They are, as stated, consevative, and often poor. That keeps them off the bleeding edge, but, when good used EVs show up with modest prices, or later, 2nd 3rd generation EVs that are more refined and cost competitive, and they find out how much money they can save on fuel, and how convenient it is to charge at home, some will switch. Well, population density is low. Gas stations will have to close or raise prices. Then more people switch. It's going to be a death spiral for gas.

[@BurrQ19]

They Cybertruck will not rust out. The Powershare option is a plus for backup energy. There will be more chargers with faster speeds. For those who care, the skin is tough as hell. It's the only brand new vehicle I can park anywhere and not worry about who will scratch or ding it. I live in a busy city. Everyone will be too scared to park next to Cybertruck. The game has changed !!

[@mnsawmill2904]

I'm 64, Live rural and have owned Chevy, Ford and Dodge trucks over the past 45 years, I have an order on the Cybertruck, not for the looks but for the tech, it is 5-10 years ahead of the other 3. Tesla has 2 million preorders the expected production rate is forecast to be 250K/yr. These guys are funny, but they should have done the minimum research before talking about the subject.

[@fgeiger41]

Within the 1st 2 minutes you can see why legacy execs shouldn't be asked. Remember what Bob Lutz said? CT is actually almost 6 grand lower than ICE equivalent price average transactions before factoring on tax credits and eventual price drops once production ramps. The manufacturing costs despite all the firsts is industry best at cost effectiveness. They're talking about small demographic use cases just to find something negative.

[@darkairieal]

Great job on fixing the audio! Thank you!

[@TheLastMoccasin]

Amazing show! Your ability to convince these fossils to come on and show why it's honestly rather easy for Tesla to do what it's doing to the Laggacy auto assemblers is appreciated! These shows will be running on loop in museums of the future!!

[@coreyhd1]

Part of the value proposition that I think gets missed is the repair cost of ICE pickups - particularly in HD pickups. The $10k replacement transmission you will never have to spend on the EV truck. Now count $10k in brake replacements over 500k miles (vs ~$0 on any EV truck). Any diesel owner can tell you the nightmare of emissions control related failures. I know a lot of farmers, and once they figure out these EV trucks stay out of the shop (unlike their current ICE trucks), they will make the move. It will be slow, but everyone will follow. The Ramcharger is going to win as is the Cybertruck. If Ram can really ship a $60k stripped Ramcharger work truck, they will sell a lot. The biggest failure Ram has today is the inability to make a transmission that lasts. Like Tesla says, the best part is no part.

[@mediacafeonlinellc8728]

A 2023 study conducted by Axios, researchers found that a significant portion of modern pickup truck owners rarely, if never, use their vehicles for hauling, towing, or other typical truck stuff. Instead, they are more likely to be used for shopping, running errands, and commuting.

[@kylekleman]

Lindsey’s story where he is laughing like crazy about how a dealer talked a potential EV customer out of buying the truck says a lot. 1. Legacy Auto dealers are absolutely impacting EV sales because they see them as a threat. John backed it up with three other people he knows who were talked out of an EV. 2. Lindsey doesn’t want to go EV and thinks it’s so funny when a dealer talks him out of buying one. He is way too bias and is missing the change. His comment about no technology changed without the old one going away was an absolutely terrible take. Does he think Nokia phone sales declined because they stopped making them? No Apple ate their lunch! Tesla has no problem selling EVs.

[@christopherhale580]

I love this program… but these two guests are clueless!

[@rjward1775]

Then he talked about Legacy delivering a decent truck in 27 or 28. Cybertruck will be pushing 400k/yr by then.

[@kylekleman]

@@rjward1775 remember they are only going to sell 35K according to that one auto “expert” guest! What a terrible take.

[@garyg5660]

I truly agreed. Get some younger generations to discuss Cybertruck and its potential benefits of new generation trucks with technologies. This discussion is the reason ICE vehicles are remain the same since trucks were first introduced

[@TonyBasuro]

People seem to forget that Musk said in 2019 Tesla was working on a project vehicle that nobody was asking for. It was going to be "cyberpunk" and it was not meant for the mass market. This is like complaining that Ferrari doesn't make a station-wagon. It's a brilliant red herring to keep legacy truck makers out of the electric car market. Force them to concentate on protecting their Pick-em-Up truck sales.

[@legostud]

EV sales are slow and going to stay slow until the NACS plugs are rolled out. Watch out for serious demand on 2025 models.

[@jmbickham]

THIS! I’m glad to see someone else point this out, although EVERYONE seems to overlook this during conversations of current US EV demand.

[@dansanger5340]

EV sales in the US were up 46% in 2023. That's the opposite of slow. Sales of CCS vehicles were up more than Tesla. It's Elon and his followers who are obsessing about a connector, not anyone else.

[@AnarchyEnsues]

All pickups are too expensive.

[@dougb3647]

John, why do you keep inviting Luddites?

[@ronaldlenz5745]

Talk about out of touch.

[@jarrodvsinclair]

15-85% in 18-20 minutes is to long to charge? That's crazy

[@CC-yr2nx]

I feel that both of the guests are clueless about the rate that things can change. Do any of the regular pickup truck buyers today have a nokia phone or a Motorola flip phone? Of course not. As soon has something is seen as outmoded, the market for that is GONE. Even if you want to sell it, nobody wants to buy it. Electric cars are MUCH better than gasoline. Once you ahve tried it, you cannot go back. The exact same was true with the smart phone. (Iphone or Android)

[@webcompanion]

People are buying new versions of the flip phone now. Cars were originally electric when invented, then have been gas for about 100 years.

[@CC-yr2nx]

@webcompanion what you are describing is called retro-fashion. That is not mainstream at all.

[@webcompanion]

@@CC-yr2nx well I guess you're not around long enough yet to realize the more things change, the more they stay the same. Ideas are "reinvented" all the time. You just don't see it.

[@CC-yr2nx]

​@webcompanion you are talking about fashion. Not technology. Technology NEVER go backwards. As an example, have we gone back to horses and carriage? It will be the same for the electric car. BTW, I am almost 70 ... I have seen a lot of changes and am glad to be alive in this period of rapid change. We live in interesting times!

[@martydouglas1802]

you dudes have to look at Kodak and the watchmakers back in time and how the rest of the world goes after what works and abandons the old way. It will be too late at that point for Kodak and the austrian watch makers to pivit and respond in time.

[@gregb7353]

Even at $3.07/gallon, the average truck owner would save $2000/year while driving 15k miles/year. The prices of the EV trucks are high, but not high when compared to higher trim gas models. If you tow long distance EV trucks aren't that appealing for sure, but most people don't do this. Most people buy used and there are no used EVs yet. Next time you talk to someone about EV trucks, ask them when they last bought a new vehicle of any type. The answer is probably never and if they have, it won't be a truck. The only ones that matter are the ones that have ever bought a new truck or is at least thinking of buying a new truck at some point.

[@mediacafeonlinellc8728]

The city of Traverse City in Michigan has 776 public charging stations, 25 of which are free EV charging stations. Traverse City has a total of 34 DC Fast Chargers, 10 of which are Tesla Superchargers.

[@ZipZoomZip]

Traverse City may have 24 non-Tesla fast chargers, but at any given time an average of only ~14 of them work, and only 10 of those work at their rated speed. All 10 of the Tesla Superchargers work 99% of the time.

[@johnryan6003]

Why is Tesla Y one of the best selling cars in the world? Can’t just be rich people?

[@nigelcharles511]

These views are very internal America. The world is changing and USA /apart from Tesla) is going to be left behind. Cost parity at point of sale has already happened in Europe and Asia. This is before you look at maintenance and running cost. The only saving grace for the USA legacy companies is that they still have the pickup market to themselves. Hybrids will only ever be a transition vehicle. Complexity of both ICE and EVs with such small EV range whilst minimal gains over conventional ICE.

[@georgepelton5645]

Linsey "It is something they didn't ask for" - I bet they asked for faster horses!😀

[@AndrewSienx]

Truck is a cultural thing in America. It can be used as a work truck, but it is actually not very good at it. Commercial vans are much better. You will not see sane people in Europe or Asia buying trucks for business. Some buy it for American-style badassness, not utility. So, if you look at the style thing, then you look at the population centers with suburban landscapes. These are 20x more people than in grain belts or other rural areas. So, Rivian and Cybertrucks are the future. The rural areas will get it not because they need it or like it; they get it because, in 10 years, there will be no other type of truck. You can buy EV vans from Ford, Mercedes and others now in Europe. And it is difficult to find a farm without solars here. So, the value is coming also

[@linmal2242]

Optimist !

[@chrissscottt]

Those diesel driving farmers and engineers might not have much use for their trucks once the robots take over agricultural work. Change is comin for them one way or another.

[@johnryan6003]

And OMG no mention of China and BYD. None are so blind as those who will not see.

[@RCdiy]

Tesla “refresh” its vehicles mechanics every day. The looks get refreshed every 3-4 years. When an employee comes up with a better way to do something they implement it immediately. They don’t do model years like traditional auto. Buy a vehicle one month later and it may be better.

[@johnryan6003]

Ford F 350 2023 4 wheel drive costs about $55K to $100K Cybertruck is in that range never rusts, higher towing and load capacity and speed ability to charge your house and power many tools at a work site full back seat.

[@petersimms4982]

If batteries have decreased 50% in 8weeks and the most expense of an EV is the battery, then china can build a truck at an affordable price 😮

[@simonthebroken9691]

Tesla customers aren't the norm. You're going to see the Cybertruck beside Lamborghinis. It's an entirely different market. You guys are talking about people like me. You're not talking about the vast majority Cybertruck customers.

[@Oosh21]

Lamborghini aren't claiming they'll sell 250,000 in 2025.

[@Alexzw92]

@@Oosh21Lambos also don’t sell for 80K

[@dylanfgarrison]

I drive a 2008 Lexus GX470 with 190,000 miles I paid $11,000 for in 2019. Assuming my old girl can keep going until my name comes up, my next ride will be a Cyber Truck. You’re going to be very surprised by how many non-Lamborghini drivers buy Cyber Trucks. I want an all electric, high ground clearance vehicle that will tear through MN snow covered roads. All the other features of the CT are just bonuses for me. I don’t tow, I don’t haul anything except my son’s wheelchair. Sure I’d rather have a Cyber SUV but the truck will have to do until maybe that comes along some day.

[@simonthebroken9691]

@dylanfgarrison I meant no disrespect. Lamborghini was the first brand I could think of. I'm just saying that the Cybertruck appeals to a far wider audience than just the established "pickup" crowd. As it should. It's incredible. I want one, I simply can't afford one...yet.

[@haywoodmorganjr1326]

The majority of pickup owners don’t use the fictional aspects ( hauling, towing) of a pickup.

[@RudyAmid]

These guys are correct when the pickup/truck EVs are not going to take a big chunk of the market. They even conservatively said maybe 30%, by 2030! I believe that to be the harsh reality. The working blokes like farmers, carpenters, or gardeners just can’t afford to buy the EV versions.

[@hartfischer5509]

Thanks for fixing the audio. This show is so interesting about what the future of ICE and EVs is concerned. With the rip-off prices at EV chargers ( other than Tesla, which are still expensive at double the price of the actual electricity ), long distance is cheaper in a plain ICE. That makes hybrids an incredible deal, with cheap EV operation locally, and cheap ICE with no range limit for long distances. Where is my Cadillac CT5 or CT6 series-hybrid ( not the China made one, that is entirely inefficiently engineered regarding packaging of drive components )

[@rovert1284]

Tesla will not be able to produce huge volumes for a long time. It'll be interesting how the vehicles will stand up in real use.

[@seanwagner3917]

Well done with finding and splicing in an alternate audio source.

[@gjohnston6052]

The show should include a person who lives in their vehicles because that's certainly a growing segment.

[@ZipZoomZip]

The guy on the right might end up living out of his vehicle if he keeps his head stuck in the sand. ;-)

[@hornprof46]

As a 77 year old Tesla owner, I am embarrassed for these 2 old farts. They don't have a clue. Tesla doesn't have a refresh cycle as the cars are made better every month with over the air updates. Tesla doesn't add a cup holder and change the shape of the head and tail lights and say it's a "New" car

[@johnryan6003]

Holy smokes! “You can’t move that many with 3000 Dealers” You do realize that at last 100 MILLION families have fast internet. TESLA purchasers use on line. And they will sell about 1,000,000 EV I. 2023. What dolts.

[@mikem6549]

strange window format. Why not full screen rather than windowed, zoom func... Display. Upscaling would be fine.

[@RockinRonny420]

You guys need to follow Tony Seba , the disruption pro . Your guesstimates are way off !

[@linmal2242]

Yes, totally right. And Peter Zeihan rekons all will change with the aging of the populace. Pensioners and grannies don't buy SUV's or P Ups !

[@Global_Optimization]

@@linmal2242 Older people buy more SUVs and pickups because they have more money than the youth do and because it's easier to get an old, aching body in and out of a high chair.

[@DishNetworkDealerNEO]

Facing the superior CyberTruck, if I were the legacy manufacturers, I’d give up on making EV Pickup trucks too!

[@RCdiy]

For decades Detroit didn’t want to innovate on the manufacturing side. One excuse after another to maintain status quo. Let’s make a roadmap for future management to do something; not us.

[@darcygibbons3836]

OMG these guests are seriously out of touch with reality. Their comments are not going to age well.

[@johnryan6003]

Price of average truck sold is US is $59,000.

[@linmal2242]

There, that says it; so cyberfruck is a vanity project !

[@Mojo16011973]

Cybertruck smashed the F350 in the truck pull test. The industry may well be underestimating how much of a work truck this is.

[@RCdiy]

They are giving us great insight into the industry. It is thinking like this which is why the climate is doomed for humans in vulnerable regions. Absolutely selfish focus within the auto industry. No matter what deadline is set the industry will cry foul and push it back. Don’t forget the money is in after sales service. That revenue may actually increase with people trying to keep their ICE vehicles on the road as long as possible.

[@firstbigbarney]

Great repair of the audio...

[@Thatdavemarsh]

Glad you had backup audio! Thanks for the repost.

[@ronaldlenz5745]

You guys are stuck in Detroit think. I'm 76, drive a Tesla (best car ever) and have a CT on order. I'm also an engineer. I understand the "value proposition." Have you guys put pencil to paper?

[@alexandermarcek1096]

I liked this vid...was kind of what went on when iphone was introduced....the phone without keypad!!! OMG! who would want that (me saying this also!!...customer would not want that!!!) ..and here we go today...no phones with keyboards....innovation comes and we adapt it, or tech goes its own way....perhaps in circles :)

[@mauraece]

The cybertruck does not compete with pickup truck buyers. Cybertruck competes with cars.

[@linmal2242]

Yes, vanity project by Tesla owner !

[@TimKennedy1]

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[@WarPropheteer]

ICE is the past. Hybrids are boring-twice as complicated and crappy as a gas car and crappy as an electric car. BEV’s are the future. Fun to drive, cheap to own. No contest. The luddites (including those on this show) will eventually capitulate.

[@robcossin4690]

CT will sell 36,000 as soon as they can make them, and not sell for only $52k, but $80.

[@marklabadie4641]

Sandy Monroe needs to be in the room with these guys to help them dance

[@arieoliver9125]

Rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. This interview is an embaraament.

[@kneekoo]

I hope these guys will be alive and well in 2030, and hopefully here on this show, to tell us how surprised they are about the EV marketshare that went way above 30%. Granted, with GM and Ford slowing down, the EVs marketshare won't climb as fast. But Tesla will make that cheaper EV by 2025-2026, and there's plenty of time to ramp that up by 2030. I do agree that the value proposition is very important, and Tesla takes that seriously. And despite what they (and many others) think about the Cybertruck, it's very likely a status symbol for some, but that thing can do serious stuff and once people see that, their views will change. The price is not great, so I don't expect it to make a dent in the pickup market in its first year, but it has a lot to offer and even the entry model will cover a lot of needs. Besides, the US people are so fond of pickup trucks that most of the buyers don't even use it professionally, but just for personal stuff. It's a weird truck, and obviously brand loyal people will stick to whatever they like, but it sell a few millions at least, maybe 2-3 millions by 2030, if not more.

[@P.Galore]

Welcome to Autoline's " Two Chairs That Match" discussion.....

[@gmoncrieff]

HD trucks should be hybrid by now, 3 or 4 motors with a 70-100 mile battery and a smaller more efficient diesel generator to charge the battery. The reduction in emissions would be huge as most day to day drives can be done on the battery without having to start the diesel generator.

[@carlsonloggie]

My wife asked me to show her a picture of a Cybertruck. She then remarked: "That's not a truck. That's an SUV." If you take her logic, the Cybertruck is a replacement for the Ford Expedition and Chevy Suburban. Yes, it's tough, and yes, it can go off road. But I suspect most people will use it to haul the kids to school or to make a statement at the country club.

[@hansonrm]

If GM could copy Toyotas system on hybrids…they may gave success but given their track record on electrical design…

[@fixedwing1]

I'd like Warren as a life coach. Success is guaranteed when I do the opposite.

[@toby-xo6rb]

Look at how smart I am! I can get the BEST ice car far cheaper than some EV truck! *fast forward a few years* Oh, my gas car is great but boy isn't this weather so crazy? And all my crops have failed. And all the green from the land has disappeared. I wonder what caused this?

[@linmal2242]

The world is tougher than that short time frame. Yes, global warming is real, but the system has a lot of inertia, so we won't be cooking anytime soon ! The biggest threat is still overpopulation !

[@toby-xo6rb]

@@linmal2242 Look at the latest stats ... population growth is slowing down and will reverse soon. Population increase won't be a problem, although population decrease will.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Being a series hybrid, the Ram will get horrible mpg, but will make sense for those who do most driving on plug-in power.

[@MrLSDownliner]

I really wish John would stop inviting these luddites on the show, then if he does I REALLY wish he’d fact check them better. He just lets them spew their lies and misinformation.

[@dgupta42]

I totally agree automakers need to make sense of the value proposition for themselves and for customers. By the gentleman is missing the point on why they need to press the pedal. There are two problems for GM and Ford. 1. Making a low cost, great value proposition EV seems to take a minimum of 3 generations of vehicles for legacy carmakers to learn. Gen 1 are basically good conversions of gas vehicles, Gen 2 are semi-optimised for EVs, Gen 3 are fully native EVs, designed for lowest cost production and highest value to customers (like a model 3). The risk to GM and Ford is that others like Tesla and some of the startups will get there much faster. 2. EVs need a completely different company structure and technology. Battery tech is evolving quickly. For example, CATL is on schedule to introduce an ultra-high density battery suitable for airplanes by next year. How do companies like GM and Ford learn all the new tech and build scale in that supply chain, without investing in making these electric trucks? One answer could be in making lighter cars and crossovers, but both GM and Ford walked out of that business. They wanted to be truck companies, and the EV tech still needs more time to get ready for a 40K truck with a good range.