Bioshock Infinite Critique | After the Hype

[@MontyZander]

We covered the whole Bioshock series on my second channel - Lore Dump. It's the show where we take someone who hasn't played a game and walk them through the full story. it was a fun(?) time 👇 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJ-qe6eiaLOaq68

[@conservativecarnage3783]

Are you going to do the mass effect series the first two bioshock games uncharted series borderlands series and resistance series? Even dead space maybe.

[@JillValentinesDumptruckAss]

😢😢

[@declanjones8888]

​@@conservativecarnage3783 I hope he does Resistance and Dead Space, some of my most favourite video games of all time.

[@rashardmccall8483]

2:23:49 2:23:49 2:23:50 2:23:50 2:23:52 2:23:52 2:23:53 2:23:53 2:23:55 😅 2:23:55 2:23:55 2:23:55 2:23:55 2:23:55 2:23:55 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:56 2:23:57 2:23:57 2:23:57 2:23:57 2:23:57 2:23:58 2:23:58 2:23:58 2:23:58 2:23:58 2:23:59 2:23:59 2:23:59 2:24:00 2:24:00 2:24:00 2:24:00 2:24:00 2:24:01 2:24:01 2:24:01 2:24:01 2:24:02 2:24:02 2:24:02 2:24:03 2:24:03 2:24:03 2:24:03 2:24:03 2:24:03 2:24:04 2:24:04 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:05 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:06 2:24:07 2:24:07 2:24:07 2:24:07 2:24:07 2:24:07 2:24:08 2:24:08 2:24:08 2:24:08 2:24:08 2:24:09 2:24:09 2:24:09 2:24:09 2:24:09 2:24:09 2:24:10 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:11 2:24:12 2:24:12 2:24:12 2:24:13 2:24:13 2:24:13 2:24:13 2:24:13 2:24:14 2:24:14 2:24:14 2:24:15 2:24:15 2:24:15 2:24:16 2:24:16 2:24:16 2:24:26 2:24:26 2:24:26 2:24:26 2:24:27 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

[@Mewchu14]

I also think that what gets lost in Rapture being this big important thing that Elizabeth _must_ address is that at the end of the day, Rapture didn't matter. Ryan dragged all these genius inventors and artists down beneath the sea, and they ended up achieving nothing. Just an abandoned, ruined city, that no one on the surface even remembers or knows is still down there. To make it this thing that Elizabeth (who now is as you said, this multiversal goddess) must jesus herself in order to bring about the prophesized savior is.... bizarre? it feels like it misses the point entirely. Why is it like that????

[@jbktpl1245]

Probably because this game had a rough development and changed constantly throughout development, leading to them to have to cut and paste a bunch of stuff together before their release date. I believe one of the developers said with all the cut content they had, they could have made more than three games on it alone.

[@temkin9298]

I think Elizabeth did the bloody baptism and did it until Elizabeth was unable to do it. What Jack goes through is the undoing of all Elizabeth 's work because by unable to do the baptism in the first place it took her ability. All of what she did was ultimately didn't matter as an oroboros can't exist. Elizabeth ultimately failed and the timeline just kept going without her. The reason why i say this is because we see the version we see in the final DLC, where is the left most Elizabeth. The only explantion is that ultimately the drowning just didn't work.

[@marocat4749]

Why indeed. like if she just visited and left, maybe. But why that.

[@GhostRider-un9gm]

Those "geniuses" archieved the Little sisters and the horrors in Bioshock 😊

[@rogerlynch5279]

​@@temkin9298 Booker De Witt really had existed in the named way He had been a Veteran who had done all those things of his biography. But the true Booker had been accused of murdering a Social Worker in Chicago. " BOOKER YOU ARE A MURDER AND LIER - Elisabeth comment had been also to the fact.

[@detectivefoxley9912]

So my biggest issue with this game is the fact that Booker and Elizabeth jump dimensions to get Daisy her guns but Booker didn't make a deal with Daisy in that dimension, or just transport the guns back to the one where Lin was dead and Booker made his deal.

[@Aliexster]

Another main change between Fitzroy 1 and Fitzroy 3 is that 1 used The First Lady as mostly a Medivac for her people, including what was likely her second in command that you only learn from a billboard in the police station with the rest of the Vox command structure at large. When you get into Dimension 3, they're all dead and the First Lady is a flag ship leading the charge. I really think they should had added a few more Vox's to differentiate them. Like one for Fitzroy 1 talking about doing this mostly for her friend, people, and maybe some little reminiscing about her mother to give her some more idealist revolutionary. Then we should find some for Fitzroy 3 going on about how her lieutenants dying showing that it showed the only one she can rely on is herself, becoming more radicalized, and learning some of the wrong lessons in her upbringing. The big thing that I think would separate things would be that Fitzroy 1 was willing to honor her word to Booker, but Fitzroy 3 all but had Booker 3 killed to keep him from dividing her own power base in a better example of the Revolution eating it's more moderate members.

[@detectivefoxley9912]

@@AliexsterThat would have been interesting, It really is a shame how bland this game is.

[@512TheWolf512]

it actually doesn't matter at all. they were screwed the moment they decided to hop dimentions in general.

[@kyletotten1685]

@@detectivefoxley9912 so bland lol. They may not of done the thousands of things they promised but bland isn't a good discription.

[@rhyswhittington8759]

honestly i feel that they tried to make this game so over complicated that they ended up failing at so many things. the biggest one i feel is the really half hearted attempt at racism in this game. the reviewer doesnt seem to mind this and even references hearing others (mathewmatosis probably whose opinions about this game pretty much mirrors my own) say that it matters but it honestly does to me. its so immersion breaking to me that they didnt portray racism very well.

[@Satherian]

2:00:18 Elizabeth: "5000 feet!" Lutece: "Dear lord, that's over 150 atmospheres of pressure!" Booker: "How many atmospheres can Songbird withstand?" Lutece: "Well, it's a mechanical bird, so I'd say anywhere between 0 and 1."

[@morgantrias3103]

Absolutely perfect reference no notes.

[@Soapy-chan]

i dont get it

[@Satherian]

@@Soapy-chan Futurama reference

[@Soapy-chan]

@@Satherian ah thanks.

[@reedthegr8andpowerfullm797]

I always thought the post-credit scene was Booker having his debt wiped away and the Luteces returning Anna to a surviving Booker.

[@pnut3844able]

No, it's the timelines being consolidated and in the main one, he kept his daughter.

[@captainjirk9564]

Everything up until the dimension hopping was pretty great for me. Even getting into it, it felt alright until we *never return to the original reality.* That took me out of it. It just erased the stakes. I love the story and relationship between Booker and Elizabeth and the major twists but it just felt... overwhelming and like it didn't mean anything and there was nothing I could do about it by the time we got to the twists. That first bit of the game where we're running around trying to not get this naive girl killed is really great.

[@GameCat16]

I will say that that's the same as saying that The Last of Us loses stakes after they leave Boston. The goal of the game isn't to resolve the conflict of the civil war or kill Comstock or Fitzroy. The goal is to escape Columbia, but each Columbia they go to is just as dangerous and out to kill them as the original. Changing realities is the same as changing locations, so the stakes still stand.

[@jonahereaux4551]

@@GameCat16 no it isnt. those are two distinct things.

[@GameCat16]

@@jonahereaux4551 When you are following the same person, yet the setting around them is changing, whether the settings are places or timelines is a matter of semantics.

[@bipstymcbipste5641]

​@@GameCat16but the world sets the stakes. When booker and Elizabeth jump dimensions, they still act like they're bound to the consequences of their old world but they're not. It's a different world where different things happened. Joel and Ellie just left the city but the ultimate goal is to reach the fireflies. You can't equate those without looking stupid

[@GameCat16]

@@bipstymcbipste5641 Booker and Liz's ultimate goal is to escape the city, and they're working under the assumption that most things are the same, as most things are (they're still wanted, after all, and Comstock's still in control, and the Vox are still backed into a corner, etc). At best, I'll say that the arc has some sloppy exposition to it, as it's revealed, in a hasty way, that they were in the same reality all along, and that Liz was just creating a new reality around them (much to her horror), so they're still dealing with the same Comstock. Again, it was hasty, but the stakes are still there.

[@shadowblood95]

The room where booker gets his hand stabbed is actually the perfect situation to prove your point about how real the world feels. The people in the room are all in on the ambush and are so stiff because they are trying and failing to be inconspicuous. Elizabeth is so animated because she's the only one in the room that doesn't know something is up. Even the woman with the compact was watching the entrance so civilians didn't end up in the middle. They were all cops trying to act natural.

[@ryszakowy]

narcs on their first bust are less obvious than those idiots. but then again they probably never did anything like that in columbia before

[@mattstorm360]

The guy playing the violin even stops playing once you enter the room. Most players know shit is about to go down and my favorite lets play bioshock infinite played into it and selected the option to demand for the tickets and get their hand stabbed. Dialog with Elizabeth is different but about the same and she even wraps your hand up.

[@sneekyfox3438]

I was about to make the same point,

[@brainglow_lightbright]

Love the dude ordering sauerkraut

[@Coreisus]

The one woman even stops Elizabeth pretending to recognize her, which was obviously just to confirm its her/and Booker

[@erinclark1369]

You're not asking but on the wiki it says the reason comstock in dimension 3 cares about getting your elizabeth back when he should have his own in the comstock house is because you aren't actually 'jumping' dimensions. you're merging them (for some contrived reason please don't ask) so when you got to the 3rd dimension you merged with the previous and the elizebeth's combined so there was only left, your companion. (why do booker and comstock not merge??? i dunno. and ken doesn't either. this game is so dumb)

[@erinclark1369]

Sorry other information that the game doesn't provide (and is just. sloppy writing) BUT the reason the big daddy attacks you in part 1 but then apparently the gatherer protector bond isn't a thing in part 2 is because there's a sign in suchong's lab that says the detachable drill modifications on big daddies makes... angry... gas... that makes them aggro on sight.... which is why the big daddy in part 2 aggros on you (but not splicers i guess i dunno) so they discontinued the modification which is why big daddies don't have those drills in the other game. you can tell they didn't have a plan in part 1 and just had to make things up as they go.

[@erinclark1369]

AND ANOTHER THING--but the room Atlas give's a lobotomy to Elizabeth his canologically his "special room" where he doesn't have to put up his Nice Atlas Act (like he even was using his act anywhere in the DLC) and be mean to people. And that' everyone who goes in that room knows he is Fontaine. So all the people who roll Sally in?? They know Atlas is Fontaine. which is ????? like you said Atlas KILLED to keep his identity hidden what do you MEAN he's been telling other people who he is.

[@erinclark1369]

ultimately you could say Im too white also to really comment. really my problem with the depiction of the vox isn't that they used violence to achieve their goals (they had to. we've seen Columbia, they couldn't just protest their way out of that. there is something to say on how depictions of characters are always framed as angry and violent characters) but its the fact they're condemned for using violence for their cause. All they do before you get the "only difference is how you spell the name" line is kill the police and topple over a vending machine. But isn't that what we've been doing the entire game as Booker and Elizabeth? All we've been doing is killing the police and looting the stores, with little care for Columbia, why is it so distasteful now that its the oppressed fighting back, instead of the main characters? and it's not like Booker and Elizabeth try to mend their own actions after the Vox, the continue onwards killing everyone in their path in unremorsefully. Compounded by the fact the game frames their extremism as bad, but then goes to have Elizabeth and Booker go to the extreme of deleting Comstock from all reality. It just feels unbalanced for the game to go "Daisy is irredeemably evil for trying to kill a child" and then provide the actual child murder, Booker, all the tools he needs to make things up to Elizabeth by sacrificing himself, and in BaS allowing Elizabeth to redeem herself after her abuse of Sally. (Also why does no one talk about the plane Elizabeth had to crash to save sally. that's like 90 some people who were entirely innocent of Rapture she was willing to kill to save one child she screw over)

[@megamike15]

you don't merge for the same reason the twin's don't you are considered different people.

[@guilhermesantos8728]

I do not think Levine and his development team considered Bioshock 2 canon. So perhaps that is why Elizabeth being responsible for so much might be a valid (but still disappointing) possibility.

[@UnderDaSeaaaa]

When it comes to Burial at Sea I always thought the aesthetic was different than the first game and the second because Market Street and Fontaine's Department Store were the newest parts of the city at the time, like how they explained in Bioshock 2 that they used the train station because that was the oldest parts of the city instead of bathyspheres.

[@evilemperordude]

The best parts of the game are honestly the “walking simulator” segments where you can just take in the world. I’ve tried playing Infinite more recently, and I really can’t get into the combat. And, yeah, it obviously doesn’t help that we got previews for a much better game than what we got.

[@turtleanton6539]

Yes

[@turtleanton6539]

The battles in bioshock2 are mich better. This needs the weapon wheel for one.

[@harrybudgeiv349]

Never saw all the previews or if I did, never got obsessed with it. Bought it the day it came out, and loved it.

[@TheKueiJin]

While i agree that the previews fucked everything up, the combat is both better than the others as well as more refined. To top it off, it's something that resides at the bottom of the barrel because of the WS segments. The world itself puts latest games in a shitter. Look at Forspoken and tell me it doesn't put it to unspeakable shame, in all departments, and doesn't even scoff at Shitfield (out of pity). It even beats The Outer Worlds for aesthetic choice!

[@Coltydabrewski]

My fav walking part is when he goes to after he died after leading a revolution and it’s just all dark and red banners all over some some lady is singing a song and vox are standing around

[@OsmSkylandersCheats]

Something that always bothered me about the story - if Comstock was willing to make a whole amusement park to indoctrinate the children of Columbia, why didn’t he do the same to Elizabeth? It sounds like he didn’t even tell her that she was his daughter, and honestly he had no reason to do that, and every reason to try to groom her into his heir from a young age. I can imagine an alternate universe where this happened, and Elizabeth's character arc was unlearning all the horrible things that her father told her and becoming her own person.

[@soulstealer5625]

Only thing i remember about this was that Elizabeth was resistant to being groomed so they held off while they worked on the conditioning method.

[@Shenaldrac]

Oh man that would be hilarious, listening to Elizabeth spouting all kinds of racist creeds! XD I wish life were that big of a shitpost.

[@rogerlynch5279]

Not much different every big Dictator has done.

[@rogerlynch5279]

The interesting point of Booker DeWitt He is based on an authentic former soldier who was really involved in those events like siege of Peking and Wounded Knee But he had become infamous when, hired by the Pinkerton Agency for ending the strike of the meet packer workers in Chicago, he had raped and murdered a Social Worker That event made worldwide headlines. Berthold Brecht used it as base material for his play SAINT JOAN OF THE STOCKYARDS That must had been the affair Commstock had accused of Booker one or two times.

[@lawtonaaj]

i feel like its because the real comstock is always dead and the leader of columbia is always a booker who took his place so he never brainwashed elizabeth because he really saw her as his daughter or else cause he was scared of causing paradox.

[@syro2412]

Even after all those unkept promises and cut content I just can't bring myself to hate the game. The story didn't always work, but I appreciate that the devs went with something a little unconventional. Elizabeth is still one of the best-crafted NPC characters. My main gripe with the game is that they could have done so much more with skylines to make the maps more open. The story could have used some work as well given the fact that it has so many plot-holes

[@ryszakowy]

elizabeth is literally ignored by enemies - she's the worst kind of follower npc, the one that doesn't take part in the game. give booker ability to open tears and you just got rid of escort mission. but after development hell bioshock was in and what they wanted to do with the franchise i'd say it's better to have absolute failure of a game and lore so destroyed that nobody else can use it than another franchise that releases less than mediocre entries every year for quick cashgrab from brainless fanboys.

[@jinmark9453]

After playing all 3 games remastered, infinite was fun for like 2 h after that I just gave up any hope for that game it was nothing but a mid range fps it was mind numbing arena shooter. Bioshock 1 seems like only good game out of that trilogy.

[@tvdvd8661]

@@ryszakowy tfw Ashley Graham still the best escort mission character. Capcom will fuck it up with the remake though i have 0 faith in them anymore

[@tvdvd8661]

@@jinmark9453 inb4 best part of 1 was the big daddy part

[@gamefan56]

@@ryszakowy "but after development hell bioshock was in and what they wanted to do with the franchise i'd say it's better to have absolute failure of a game and lore so destroyed that nobody else can use it than another franchise that releases less than mediocre entries every year for quick cashgrab from brainless fanboys." Pretty ironic given a new bioshock game is in development.

[@Excalibur-Sonic]

I like SongBird. There's a cool headcannon that Songbird was a Booker that failed and was used as test subject. Not alot of works on that but man I love that idea.

[@autumnavalanche1097]

I thought this was canon, but I guess I must've just read a very convincing post about the idea 😅

[@greenjacketman560]

Pretty sure its cannon in burial at sea ​@autumnavalanche1097

[@autumnavalanche1097]

@@greenjacketman560 good point! Thanks for the reminder :]

[@dualindigo9672]

The way you put the Bioshock games into their intended historical, political and philosophical context is really fantastic.

[@jackwilliamson1807]

And I really appreciate Monty calling out how the overt racism of some characters fits in the narrative while just letting Elizabeth randomly throw slurs around is just...wrong on so many levels.

[@paularbelaez4742]

@@jackwilliamson1807It's called depth, like when you real huckleberry you're supposed to appreciate the work as a whole and understand humans are flawed. You expect a story or a politically correct campaign? It's not offensive to expect the viewer to understand that even good people can say flawed things. It's really strange how people seem to expect perfection from the good side and total incompetence and vitriol from the bad side. It's very sloppy writing to paint your characters in black and white and to have every "good character" essentially embody the perfect Mary Sue aspect. You need to portray realism and distinct points of view in a coherent manner not have a bunch of goody two shoes taking on a bunch of Disney villains. It boggles my mind how the mentality is almost reverting to childhood with this criticism. A trait of a good villain for example is managing to be relatable, to make people think they could've ended up alike the villain or somewhat seeing the logic in a villains actions. The worst type is the disney and generic variety, when people are incapable of writing properly they think a good villain is made up of everything they hate in a person. The same rule also applies to protagonists, a perfect goody two shoes with no personal flaws to overcome is boring and forgettable and people really seem to love these generic and stereotypical heroes and villains but it does a disservice to story telling and insults the intellect of a smart viewer. Life isn't black and white but for some reason adults really want their stories to be black and white so they can justify their dislike and not be wrong or have to engage in critical thinking. That should be fine for a fun action movie but not for complex stories or stories attempting to be more than a quick action cash grab.

[@fawn2911]

@@paularbelaez4742 cope

[@Jay_Sullivan]

@@fawn2911 , I'll translate your comment, for others: I don't understand what's being said, and I certainly don't have any ability to counter it; so, I wrote a single word that I see as negative and hope someone else can use it in a rebuttal.

[@Dong_Harvey]

​@@Jay_SullivanDouble Cope 🎉

[@kaialexander6806]

I'm aware as I'm typing this that the bar is below ground, but oh my god, thank you for pointing out lack of subtitles and saying that there's no excuse for it. It's such an easy bar to clear in regards to accessibility, but so many people are willing to throw it out and act like disabled folks just aren't entitled to play video games.

[@Whiteythereaper]

Even as someone with good hearing I use subtitles in games because sometime the audio is so chaotic or the mix is so bad that it's necessary, and sometimes it also helps to focus on what's being said. Like playing the older Call of Duty zombies maps after playing Black Ops 4 is weird and you miss out on so much of the story if you're not playing with all 4 players nearby so you can hear each character talking. I have also started to watch tv shows and movies with subtitles where available because again sometimes the mix is awful and sometimes it helps me to focus on the content and the story especially when there's a lul and nothing engaging is happening

[@leothepuppp]

i have adhd and legit can't hear that well without subtitles, even regular youtube videos lmao

[@Satherian]

You know, I read the book Recursion recently (and by recently, I mean I read it yesterday). The plot revolves around a phenomenon called 'False Memory Syndrome', where random people are getting hit with moments where they suddenly have a different set of memories. Sometimes it's years and years, other times, it's only a few days. But no matter what, the moment the new memories hit, they hit hard, cause a nosebleed, and leave fuzzy black-and-white memories. Now, I don't want to spoil the plot too much because the book is fuckin fantastic, but the book also deals with alternate histories. Watching this video made me realize what that reminded me of - Bioshock Infinite's tears and memory issues caused via using them. But Recursion handles memory issues *much* better. It thinks about how everyone is affected by FMS, not just a few nearby soldiers and a couple main characters. And when FMS begins accelerating, we see chaos in the streets as people get bombarded with more and more false memories. A few years of fake memories is one thing, but, for some, it's whole lifetimes. Alternate histories are never clean and simple like we hope. Butterfly effect and all that. In Bioshock Infinite, when Booker changes reality the first time, only Chen seems to be affected. Does Booker not have new memories of the new timeline? He's no where to be found in this Columbia so is he dead, too? What about the Elizabeths in Timeline 2 and 3? Is Timeline 3 Daisy not confused why she has memories of Booker as a hero and Booker as a random dude she strongarms? I wish Infinite had given more thought on the ramifications of changing realities, especially since, when they reality hop, the characters merge? But not really?

[@rogerlynch5279]

There are more novels like that back in the Sixties and Seventies it had been a rave.

[@Kuwaiden]

Just finished all three games again, along with watching through all 3 of your Bioshock videos. There's honestly just so much to say about how well you've critiqued the series through *looks at video length* 6 hours of video essays, and I thank you for helping me find an even greater appreciation for them all. God knows lots of the themes went over my head when I was playing these games all those years ago, but even replaying them as I am now, I still found your video critiques to extremely helpful. I don't know what possible insightful thing I could even say, but after everything, I think my ideal Bioshock now would be a combination of: - Bioshock 2's combat loop and pace - Bioshock Infinite's world design - Bioshock 1's level design - Bioshock 1's environmental storytelling

[@spouwnerring]

There is a plot-hole in this game (there are multiple, but I'm only going to talk about 1). In the timeline where the Vox Pupuly got their weapons, Comstock moved Elizabeth from Monument Island to Comstock House, thus forcing Booker to join the Vox in order to reach, but died in battle. However when the Booker and Elizabeth we follow enter the timeline where the Vox Pupuly got their weapons the Elizabeth from THAT timeline is no where to be found. She is never mentioned and character who are native to the revolution timeline don't find it strange that there are 2 Elizabeth at eventually the game just forget that Booker and Elizabeth where hopping from from timeline to timeline. And you know what would have been cool? Having Songbird be the penultimate boss and having a fully brainwashed and fully juiced-up Elizabeth be the final boss.

[@ryszakowy]

yeah they never mention other elizabeth

[@grahamcarpenter5135]

Uhh, not to be an asshole or anything, but may I ask why you're spelling Populi with a Y?

[@spouwnerring]

@@grahamcarpenter5135 Dutch autocorrect. Also I can't change it now that my comment got hearted

[@mattwoodard2535]

People miss something VERY important. Elizabeth just can't make tears between different realities, she can MERGE different realities together choosing what is on top. Look at what happens when Elizabeth opens the tears in the Good Time Club and Bull House. Does it look like the other tears? No. These two tears expand outwards and things change behind it. And why does Chen Lin remember being dead? That's because he is a merged version of a Chen Lin that's alive and one that's dead and he remembers both at the same time. You see other people having the same problem all through the last part of the game. The reason that no one talks about an Elizabeth in Comstock House is because there isn't one. The Voxophone were the dead Booker talks about it is a "left over" from the reality that existed before Elizabeth merged it with another one. Note Elizabeth really doesn't know she's doing it or have control due to the Syphon. Though she suspects it as she states she didn't know if she and Booker traveled to the Vox Revolt reality, or she MADE it. Spoiler: She made it. sm

[@TheNwr1]

@@mattwoodard2535 To be fair though, if we assume she merges realities, wouldn't that mean that Booker and Comstock, being the same person, would be merged? Does she choose what to merge? Is our Booker distinct enough from any Comstock that he simply couldn't be merged? It gets muddled really quickly, but I can see it working.

[@BWTF_Ben]

I completely got caught up in the hype machine of "Infinite" back in the day, and I absolutely enjoyed my first few play throughs. When "Burial" came out I was hyper charged with enthusiasm. By the end of part two I was completely depressed and angry. A lot of what you said in this video helps sum up why I felt that way, and in my head canon "Burial" simply never happened (but yes, I know it did). If a future Bioshock ever gets made and hand waves "Burial" away, I won't be mad.

[@jose2D7735]

I feel you, It’s just so crazy to imagine how different infinite could’ve been, maybe in another universe infinite would’ve been the game we all wanted and maybe even more.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

@@jose2D7735 how? more live-events?

[@destinyhntr]

Read the book Rapture instead for a proper Bioshock prequel to the first game. Other than one plot hole, it's very good and you can tell the writer researched games 1 and 2 well

[@kygumo2671]

I've never understood your point. How can you say that knowing that the Bioshock universe is made up of an infinite number of realities? What's to say that the changes aren't simply due to the fact that it might not be the same reality (although that sounds like an excuse)?

[@MCArt25]

Ka-ching!

[@mosquitomilk9877]

I know burial at sea has *MANY* issues, but I can't help but still enjoy episode 2 so much. Maybe not the ending, but getting to play as Elizabeth and explore a version of Rapture, taking in the atmosphere and being stripped of her powers so you never feel too powerful. Idk, just something I really enjoyed.

[@crossrw8030]

I really enjoyed it too. I even enjoyed the ending. It'd be fun to see a Bioshock with more gun, trap and environment focus, rather than plasmid-heavy.

[@ronniewhitedx]

Part 2 encouraged stealth gameplay which I appreciated plus it switched up the arsenal which was neat. Lots of effort.

[@marioruiz1530]

I enjoyed the implementation of invisibility as an actual plasmid/vigor quite a bit, I’ve got to admit.

[@turtleanton6539]

Metoo and I wish we gpt s bioshock infinte 2 where we play as Elizabeth

[@turtleanton6539]

​@@ronniewhitedx yes but part 1 was entiwrly unecessary

[@user-um7xs7ih8f]

2:25:56 Dude got so mad, his inner Atlas's Irish accent just came out.

[@josephhanicak7922]

The beginning of the game is legitimately one of the best of all time. It's atmospheric story telling done perfectly. You start off with the ominous lighthouse, then rocket up to the beautiful Columbia. The moment when you first see the city and the song starts playing, is one of my favorite moments in gaming. Then you step into the ornate church, and get "baptized". You can tell that something is off, but it drifts to the back of your mind as you peacefully walk through Columbia. It's truly beautiful, even 9 years later. The in-your-face, old timey political messaging is charming and feels non-threatening. All the people around you are pleasant and happy, and it's generally a good environment. And then the game brings you back down to earth hard with the relevation of what the raffle is actually for. Instantly, all the old-timey charm is gone from the previous scenes once you're reminded of another prevalent aspect of the times being represented. Even though you're in Columbia, the mood is brought back down to the lighthouse.

[@ryszakowy]

and overwhelming stupidity of the writing like booker not trying to cover his hand tattoo after seeing false prophet ad or PICKING A GODDAMN BALL after being mysteriously warned to not do that. they could've at least pretend to try defying the fate or something.

[@josephhanicak7922]

@@ryszakowy Of course Booker is going to do stupid shit, he just got rocketed into the atmosphere into a floating city that he definitely didn't know about before hand. To say that he's out of his element is a colossal understatement. I agree that Booker acts kinda stupid, and it is a little frustrating, but it really isn't that bad to me. Sure, they should have changed it to remove moments like that, but it isn't that big of deal.

[@BassBanj0]

@@ryszakowy 1. He didn't understand what that meant, why would he think you cover it up? And 2. He was told not to pick a certain number ball, he didn't know that he would pick that one up specifically You just seem to have a huge hate boner for it

[@tyb.531]

Would you consider the first bioshock‘s intro to be one of the best as well?

[@tiffanyrivera7232]

😊nn😊😊😊😊n😊n😊k😊😊k😊n😊😊😊😊😊😊😊m😊😊😊😊😊😊😊n😊k😊nn😊😊😊nnn😊😊k😊😊😊😊😊n😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@daddykarlmarx6183]

If they just gave the script another revision and introduced more immersive sim elements it would've been just as good as the others

[@TheJayson8899]

BioShock games were never im sims. The closest they got was choosing to either hack a turret or destroy it. That’s about it. I don’t know why people keep saying this.

[@charaznable8072]

It already is.

[@pastramiandrye]

I have not watched this yet, but after seeing the intro I want to throw in my two cents about what made Bioshock infinite fun but empty for me. The dimension hopping - specifically starting in Finkton - really sort of just... cut all the dramatic tension, for me at least. Once Elizabeth takes us from the original universe, we never return, and it just makes everything feel a lot less consequential. Why are Booker and Elizabeth not going to dimensions where there's no armed conflict in Columbia? Why do they expect the Daisy Fitzroy from the third iteration to know or remember them when they have never actually met her? What happens to the original Columbia, with Booker and Elizabeth disappearing from thin air? Why should I care about what happens in any part of the narrative if a dimensional hop renders all the details from the previous parts of the game more or less irrelevant? That, more than all the cut content and discarded plot lines, is what makes the game not really as enjoyable to replay, at least for me. I can't get invested anymore, because it's essentially just an empty shell. Everything can and will be changed at a drop of a hat, and it makes it feel terribly artificial.

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

Good point. It's less dimension hopping, and more just deus-ex-machinaing yourself into a universe where the problem is solved. And it strips away all the stakes. All those people you were fighting for the past 3 hours, they're in a completely different dimension and they don't matter any more. This basically what that famous Rick and Morty episode described, but Bioshock falls into the trap.

[@pastramiandrye]

@@HotDogTimeMachine385 It doesn't help that the game doesn't really commit to it. There are narrative questions about this that could be explored, and some plot holes like 'where's this universe's Elizabeth?', but the game just brushes over them.

[@ryszakowy]

yup, jumping dimentions ruins the narrative and story makes no sense whatsoever. - we need to find the gun maker - gunmaker is dead *jump - gunmaker is alive but his tools are missing - why in the hell are we on about that, the deal with communist fitzroy might not even exist, just storm the ship and fuck off. - tools are too heavy we have to jump *jump - congratulations booker you got manipulated by communist propaganda and died for nothing *TIME PARADOX - there was no deal between them - elizabeth technically is still in the angel statue *TIME PARADOX - going after elizabeth booker gets transported to another timeline where elizabeth is old and bitter and bombards new york WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON AT THIS POINT - old elizabeth sends booker to a timeline where she's bing held in the tower - this isn't even the original elizabeth WHAT THE HELL screw revolution, screw communists, screw peceful columbia where fotzroy got executed and vox populi were hunted down like parasites that they are. - now we're going basically nowhere - just take first flying ship and fuck off to paris BUT NO - comstock has to die - zeppelins and songbird WHY THE FUCK IS HE A SUPPORT THEY TESED FIGHTING HIM SO MANY TIMES - you know fuck all that, lighthouses and keyes from nowhere or you know what? even better... at this point nothing matters, columbia, communist vox populi, 1912, comstock, booker, nothing. - oh right comstock has to die even tho he has no meaning at this point stupidass ending that solves nothing.

[@ryszakowy]

@@pastramiandrye considering that in first two dimension jumps elizabeth is still locked in monument island... and walking around at the same time... so when elizabeth says to songbird "take me home" and he flies god knows how many miles in the air without elizabeth being protected in any way or being able to breathe... he arrives at monument island and sees another elizabeth... but we don't talk about that because it makes no sense whatsoever

[@Nostripe361]

I always thought you went back to universe one after traveling to universe two. I didn't think there was a universe three.

[@gldni17]

One minor point about the coin flip moment: Booker picks heads or tails at random when you press the "flip coin" button. He picks tails in the clip that you showed in the video. But it always lands on heads. The constant is the outcome, not the choice. The only reason I'm mentioning this is that is genuinely surprised me when I was first playing the game multiple times for trophies back in the day, and I got to this scene and Booker said "Tails" in my third playthrough when he'd said "Heads" the first two plays that I recalled. Kinda interesting what sticks with us from the games we play and the stories we experience, huh? X3 Great video, and honestly, I have a ton of issues with Infinite's story and narrative decisions, but not only is the combat gameplay still very fun, but there are some story moments that just hit so perfectly even today. If nothing else, Booker and Elizabeth's relationship all the way up until the last combat encounter is incredible. After they end up in Rapture at the start of the ending, though...

[@mirko241]

If you want to include universe hopping in your story, don't forget to include a scene in the airship where your duo jumps back to their original universe before the big robobird attacks them.

[@wiseforcommonsense]

Yeah, I always assumed that they got back to dimension 1 when in the airship

[@raydaug4633]

The problem with the Vox Populai (I write this at an hour and seventeen into the video), as I read it, is two fold. Number one is that while narrative is used to construct context, game play tells it's own story as well, and the Vox Populai are used as interchangeable targets for Booker. A valid reading of this is that is was intended as a reinforcement of Booker's (a)morality and self interest and I wouldn't dispute that reading. But there's a mechanical equivalency being drawn between the two sides by they way that are used as gameplay, unintentional or not. And this mechanical equivalency dovetails into the narrative issue, which is that after Fitzroy's death, the game just kind of moves on from the topic and focuses more and more heavily on the muiltiversus and causality that it does on the previous focuses of race, politics, and America. Which is a result of, as you pointed out, of the game trying to do WAY too much at once. So the take away a lot of players end up having is of a game that goes "these guys (Columbia) are bad, but these guys (Vox Populai) are also bad, and we're moving on because we have more important topics to cover."

[@ryszakowy]

usually revolution is even worse than "opressors" american bullshit aside - revolution did no good to russia or france, it only made it worse.

[@raydaug4633]

@@ryszakowy If that was the intended reading, then it was unwise to lean so heavily on Colombia's racisim. You can't just put Ameican bullshit aside when talking about this game. Again, this is a result of Infinite being about too many things at once. Metaphors and messages get confused in all the noise.

[@laurentleplat333]

I think there lie a dissonance between Bioshock 1 and Infinite. Objectivism is at the core of 1, as it drive the plot, created the setting, and is the core philosophy of the two mains antagonists. Infinite’s critique of America’s Hypocrisy end up being windows dressing while we supposed to really care about the MULTIVERSE. Funnily enough, it doesn’t work either 9 years later for the MCU.

[@jose2D7735]

So in short infinite stretched itself too thin by trying to cover too many ideas ?

[@ChibiGeeBee]

And that's the issue! No matter intent or interpretation, the game puts you in the role of a white man mowing down waves of black people with heavy weaponry. Black people who are fighting back against slavery. No matter what, not even pausing to really examine these actions is the game's biggest flaw. (that said, I am white, so I can't imagine what it would be like to play this game as a person of color)

[@jakewolf079]

This was THE game that made me realizie games are a form of art, despite all the shortcomings, it remained a beautiful piece of fantasy.

[@mikelife7072]

Indeed, despite all the criticisms, there aren't exactly many games like this that release anymore.

[@scush]

i especially just also still LOVE the entire intro/beginning sequence up until when elizabeth figures out booker is betraying her-i think that’s when stuff unfortunately starts getting progressively more and more stupid. and not because elizabeth finally gets some agency; that’s really great, but because of what starts happening to booker, how the game handles elizabeth’s autonomy (poorly, because they can’t commit to it at all) and the whole debacle later with the vox pouli … even on my first playthrough, i felt like the cracks were beginning to appear there, and i really wanted to go back to what the game was at the beginning. but the whole first section of this game is so masterfully crafted and engaging that i still know of very few other games that have such a well-executed beginning. despite its linearity, irrational is at their peak there with their environmental storytelling and art direction, which have always been their strongest qualities as a studio. i honestly wish they would have just started releasing walking simulators at some point. capital g _GAME MECHANICS_ and traditional narrative storytelling always seemed to be holding them back more than giving them extra tools to work with. but they’re gone now, so … thanks for that, 2K. :(

[@xxXXRAPXXxx]

The only thing beautiful associated with this game ware Elizabeths lewds. Sadly i did not see any new ones in some time. Pity.

[@scush]

@@xxXXRAPXXxx go horny jail

[@Ronam0451]

Nah

[@holdmeclosertonydanza22]

I was at the midnight release for Bioshock Infinite. I took it home, played it completely through, sat there and digested the ending, and then decided I missed playing it, and promptly began it again. To this day, it's the only game I've ever loved so much that I played it twice through consecutively.

[@GarrettWinn43]

I did the exact same thing the first time a played through it. I remember being in such awe by what I had just experienced that I had to play it again. It is still a game that I will go back and play through once a year. I can see the valid critiques of burial at sea but I personally loved that DLC. Even with the ending being a sad one I still walked away feeling content and deeply moved. Both the main game and the DLC is something I always highly recommend to anyone that hasn't played it

[@sickfuckingshit]

I feel that, loved both bios as a kid then when I finally completed infinite I was in awe around the final minutes, going back to rapture, the ending all of it is just so good

[@TYLERbOONE1080]

Infinite was the first BioShock I played. When I finished it I just sat in awe for 20 minutes

[@facerip2222]

Here's a tiny part I don't think anyone will ever bring up, but it bothers me. That Big Daddy at the end of Burial at Sea 1, he launches his drill at Booker, but misses and gets it embedded in the wall. Then the Big Daddy attempts to retract his launched drill in the wall, and the drill spins..... Under what power? Of course the drill can spin when it's attached to his arm, of course the drill can fly through the air once launched spinning, but once it's in the wall, what power or force is causing it to spin? Makes no sense.

[@AeridisArt]

One thing that personally bothers me about Burial at Sea that I don't see many talk about is that Booker has Anna's initials tattooed on his hand. That's something only the Bookers who sold off their daughters did, and since the one we were playing with was actually Comstock, he'd have no reason to do this. Not to mention the fact that he specifically went to Rapture to forget about what he did, yet he has the initials, to remind himself of what he did?

[@facerip2222]

@@AeridisArt Brilliant! Excellent point. That is something I have never even thought about. I love when people dig into these kinds of things and make good points about them.

[@destinyhntr]

@@AeridisArt I've heard someone say he did that because he killed her and it was his way to remind himself what he did

[@harrybudgeiv349]

Magnetic coupling

[@facerip2222]

@@harrybudgeiv349 Hello, it has been almost 2 years, and I think I've got a reasonable explanation. So imagine an electric drill, the drill bit and the motor are 2 separate things. The only way this could work in Bioshock is if the drill had its' motor built into the drill itself, in the center. So the long cord could be supplying the electricity (as well as acting as the drill bit retrieval cord), the motor would be housed in the interior of the drill bit, and the drill bit would be on the outside. The only problem with this theory I can see is this means the drill bit itself isn't solid all the way through, it would have to be hollow to house the motor. And that means the drill bit wouldn't be durable. Smashing into that wall would probably shatter it into a thousand pieces from the impact force. Hmm. On second thought, I'm no closer to an answer than I was back then! I need more time to contemplate, I will come back in another year and a half and share my findings. We have got to crack this case.

[@TheInfamousCloaker]

Just a quick thought on how Songbird could/should have worked maybe. It could have been like a "heat" or "Wanted" system for each section of the game where if you didn't play stealthy or more passively you would build up heat within that district until you started to get hunted down by Songbird.

[@ryszakowy]

and then what? songbird takes enough damage and simply flies away? or songbird destroys the platform you are in changing main story each time you screw up?

[@argo9721]

@@ryszakowy exactly what I was thinking

[@lorenzocassaro3054]

@@ryszakowy They could have kept him as a reoccurring boss fight I can imagine a chase-fight on the Skylines, for instance. That would have been cool

[@mx338]

I knew about none of the promises of Bioshock Infinite and it was the first Bioshock I actually played and instead of simply watching it and I thoroughly enjoyed, it catered to everything I want in a story game. Burial under the sea just seemed like fan service to me, seeing Elizabeth again and a Rapture before destruction.

[@ARIXANDRE]

Beautiful work and analysis, Monty. Just a correction, 1:26:16 , "God Only Knows" is orginally by The Beach Boys, not the Bee Gees. 🙏🏻

[@devonofficial1699]

Came here to say the same

[@ThePurityControl]

The docks at Finktown are possibly the worst crime against a stealth mechanic - you can take out a guard in a closed room and then every enemy on the entire map activates even though there's no way they could possibly now.

[@equitesloricatus6035]

It's funny that as a father and a military veteran, I empathize a lot with Booker. He's the character I like the most in Infinite, as I see him as a man who walked the path of life, failed, failed again, and discovered there's no gold at the end of the rainbow.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

When you talk about the ending, I feel like that was one of two moments I felt the game really failed. (The other being Booker thinking that Daisy from reality 3 would honor a deal made by Daisy from reality 1) Elizabeth drowns Booker in the river. But the problem I had was she drowned a Booker who already refused the baptism, had a daughter, and fought his way through Columbia. This should mean she changed nothing other than to kill the man who was traveling alongside her. She didn't go back in time and kill him before the baptism because the man she drowns knows who she is. And this was a problem because it could have been easily fixed by having him watch as she drowns a younger version of Booker before our eyes as we fade from existence. Though then this game even then suffers from the grandfather paradox since she went back in time to kill her own father, making it impossible for her to exist to go back in time to kill him etc etc....

[@whiterex66]

My issue with the baptism is similar but goes further. There is definitely an issue in the logic of drowning a booker who had already refused the baptism, and was therefore not on the path to becoming comstock. It literally accomplishes nothing other than "telling the story" But If you look at the whole strategy of using the baptism to get rid of Comstock in the timelines, it doesn't make sense. If there is a million, million lighthouses, and there is an alternate universe for all the different possible outcomes (multiverse/quantum universes) then even if you drowned booker before he became comstock, there would always be a universe where that DIDN'T happen. The only thing this accomplished was killing the one version of Booker that we know was "good", albeit Elizabeth had already more or less triggered a psychotic break in him so I doubt he would have been any good beyond all that. Elizabeth even acknowledges the absurdity of travelling through the multiverse killing comstocks because the idea of doing that in an infinite multiverse is patently impossible. Drowning Booker at the baptism has the exact same probability of success (zero). Ironically, for all Elizabeth's talk of the pointlessness of travelling from parallel universe to parallel universe killing Comstocks, that's exactly what the plot of Burial at Sea part 1 is about.

[@chrisdaughen5257]

You could argue the ending has Elizabeth put all of Booker's memories into his younger self: the "origin" version that hadn't made the choice to accept the Baptism or not. So the Booker that drowned, was still the "baby smothered in his crib."

[@destinyhntr]

@@whiterex66 That's the issue with multiverses in general. Every single decision by every single person creates a new universe. Infinite possibilities don't make for good stories. There are zero stakes when you can travel between those universes. If you made a rule that only big decisions matter (like the lifechanging baptism), then you could maybe craft a story but even that leaves tons of plot holes. Basically just don't use multiverses and you'll be fine (and avoid time travel too while you're at it).

[@dr.s8972]

Elizabeth collapsed all the Bookers that ever went to to river into one when they went back to the baptism. When she drowns him, she drowns all of them. This is shown to be the case when all the other Elizabeths appear alongside her. It shows that he is merged with all the other Bookers too.

[@Shenaldrac]

No you don't understand, the game says that if she kills this Booker then it kills all Bookers! Just turn off your brain, stop thinking! The game has spoken, constants and variables, it works because Lizzie says so! /s

[@fibiomorph]

I think my primary issue with Infinite is that, unlike Bioshock one and two, it is not about an ideology. Its principal obsession is determinism, which is a philosophy yes, but not a way in which one can build a life. One can not build a city based on the idea of what happens has already been foretold, because that says nothing about what kind of city you build. Colombia is evil because of authorial fiat and to act as a definite bad ending, not because of any inherent ideological issue to which the founder was bind too. This means that the locality has nothing to say about determinism (other than something mealy mouthed about skin colour determining your class), which is a massive let down compared to Rapture where the very architecture spoke to the triumphs and failures of its ideology. As is, city exists because a Bioshock game requires a city rather than because the city is important to the story. Which, ironically, is a expression of determinism but not in a way the writers would have liked.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

??? If what happens has been foretold, you can built a society (and a city) around that. You are poor because that's how it is, you are rich because that's how it is. You have more, or less, rights because that's how it is. You are smart or dumb, because that's how it is. You can go and combine that with exceptionalism, because you are exceptional because that's how it is. I'm not saying that Columbia it's a good example, I'm just saying that it was possible and it is possible to make something like rapture using determinism as a motif.

[@jose2D7735]

What you’re saying going keeps going way over my head but I like how you worded it nonetheless

[@reilysmith5187]

? The first game wasnt about ideology either. It was about the jewish struggle against the guy white man who supposedly kept suppressing them and taking their stuff. It's about Jewish identity.

[@EtherBotGames]

I would argue that the society in Infinite was built around "what happens has already been foretold" if you take that to be a reference to the concept of manifest destiny

[@sophiehatter3111]

Are you high?

[@rotomfan63]

Actually having Colombia bleed into Rapture's universe in some weird way might have been a cool explanation if they you know, actually explained it instead of Retconnning shit. Something like Liz and her dad coming into Rapture's universe somehow alters the constants and variables of Rapture's universe(s) or something, IDK, it could have worked but.... Oh sidenote: the guy face first dead in the cornflakes should have been mashed potatoes instead of corn flakes for the comedy of having his face mashed into it

[@danielwisniewski6962]

You know, I didn’t know why exactly I felt this at the time, but Burial at Sea didn’t sit right with me upon completion. This helped me come to terms with those feelings, especially since Infinite made me weep at the end (the first game to ever really make me do that) and I genuinely enjoyed the story of Bioshock 02. Thanks for the excellent essay, as always.

[@PieOfEpicness]

Ken Levine: We can't do a musical number in a game. Sam Lake: Hold my coffee.

[@ianpcon3630]

Just finished this game. Very ambitious, and I have to appreciate it. It obviously falls on its face a bit having to juggle so much, but the attempt is admirable and had flashes of all time great moments.

[@ouij]

Elizabeth being a Disney princess is the main reason why I didn't feel a connection with her. This is a woman whose only real experience with humanity is viewing it through magic windows. She enters the wide open world, immediately strolls into a crowd and starts dancing with other people. No apprehension, no nervousness - just starts dancing like she's done it a million times. That never felt right to me. Personally, I think the better story angle to explore would've been if Elizabeth slowly came to the realization that her idealized view of the world didn't match the brutal reality and she wanted to return to her cage. You'd still keep that duality of Booker being the hero and the villain because you'd be "rescuing" someone that doesn't want to be saved. Bonus: You wouldn't have to butcher the concept of infinity or write a story that basically amounted to M. Night Shyamalan's "I Am My Own Time-Traveling Grandpa." Once again, that's just a personal preference. What I can objectively complain about though is Elizabeth on a mechanical level. She opens a portal to a tornado. Five minutes later, she's back to being a walking ammo box. I haven't played the game since it came out but I'm pretty sure there were at least a dozen times after that scene when a tornado portal would've come in handy. "I found three bullets, Mr. Dewitt." Great, great - can you find a weather report and see if there's any chance of a storm today? I have no opinion on Daisy's death scene because the entire lead up to it was terrible. If I remember correctly, her reason for wanting to kill Booker is that his existence "complicates the narrative." That's the second laziest justification for a betrayal behind "I don't know. I just like killing people." You know what's never been a strong foundation for a movement? People returning from the dead. That's never helped anyone. Pay no attention to the hundreds of tons of iconography hovering in every direction. I'm gonna stop ranting or I'll be here all day. In summation, Bioshock Infinite is the game that made me understand the phrase "I'm not mad. I'm disappointed."

[@twigtwig3110]

You beat me to the punch with this, and I agree with everything in it. I'd like to add on a few additional complaints about some of the things in Infinite that were brought up in the video. Per the racial tensions, I feel like they lack a certain bite to them. In fact, I generally feel like the entire game doesn't go far enough in what it presents. There are plenty of scenes in the first two games that really encapsulate how messed up Rapture became due to its extremist ideals, especially in Bioshock 1 where basically every area has one horrifying aspect to it. What really stands out to me is Ryan burning down his forest. It's such a callous act presented as something he believes to be totally acceptable that it shocks me. In comparison, while the racial issues are shown in Infinite, they feel a little... toned down? The only scene with any sort of weight to it is the lottery but even that feels like a bit of a cop out. No slurs are used, no one is actually lynched... you see the aspects of racism that everyone knows about but not the parts that make you vaguely uncomfortable and in particular, that reflect back on society in a way that makes you think. Hearing that Ryan burned down his forest raises a question about how far property rights should extend that can have nuance to it, but showing a comical version of the most socially unacceptable version of racism doesn't actually raise any questions. I can even double down on this by asking why it matters to the game. The fact that Columbia is racially segregated is a point that's almost entirely dropped after the introduction, and the racial tensions end up being replaced with economic tensions by the midpoint without any connection to why the nationalistic ideas of Columbia lead to racism. This is in contrast tot he first two games which go to great pains to show how the ideals they are critiquing lead to the horrifying consequences of their settings. To add on to Elizabeth, I couldn't even view her as a character. She's poorly written like you said, but I also found her to be far too game-y. I was acutely aware that she would just vanish during combat and appear again when it was exploration time, and her "assistance" was an unwelcome distraction in the middle of a firefight. Games are all about immersion through interactivity, and Elizabeth presents no interactivity at all. You can use her to open tears from time to time, but that's really just a glorified vigor - and I have issues with vigors as well. In worrying that Elizabeth would annoy the player, Irrational heavily overcorrected and made her a non-factor. It's a game entirely about escorting another character in which no gameplay revolves around escorting that character. Sure, Booker makes a bond with Elizabeth, but unless the player is captivated by seeing a girl act overly cute during cutscenes you won't actually get attached to her, or even think or care about her. The Last Guardian and Ico come to mind as games that do the "escort an ally" in a way that actually makes you depend on and grow attached to your companion. These games can be a little divisive because when your ally doesn't behave it's frustrating, but completely cutting out the only other character in the game, the one that's supposed to have magic powers and be the subject of a game spanning escort quest, from gameplay just doesn't sit right with me. And then there are vigors. I hate vigors because they are the reason this game had to be named Bioshock. I don't dislike the gameplay implications of vigors, I dislike the fact that vigors exist just because plasmids existed. There's a rule in writing that if something is in your story and it doesn't serve the plot, you should consider cutting it. The lore explanation for why vigors exist is incredibly half assed - Jeremiah Fink used one of their magical portals and *just happened* open one to Rapture in the right place at the right time to witness plasmids being invented, at which point he stole the idea to sell himself. The plot of Infinite so so full of holes that it's basically a ring, but this one stands out to me as being incredibly stupid while also being incredibly unnecessary. It wasn't enough for the game to have a system of magic powers just like those from the prior games - they literally *are* the powers from the prior games. Plasmids are magical and I can accept that, so why couldn't Irrational come up with a new magical reasons for vigors, if they really wanted them? But even more annoying to me is that vigors cheapen the idea of plasmids. Plasmids are at the heart of everything that happens in Bioshock 1/2 but they are also a physical representation of the ideas of the city. Plasmids are science and commerce running unchecked. They were created by unethical but technically legal experimentation on the poor and impoverished underclass. They represented a way to become the ubermensch of Ryan's dreams - someone better not just in intelligence than the parasites, but better in ability too. Unquestionably superior, the perfect human. They were so attractive that they warped society and led directly to the civil war that tore the city apart. You can't just treat plasmids as a magic system because they are also emblematic of the themes of the games. In contrast, vigors just... exist. Seriously, go read the Bioshock wiki page for plasmids, then read it for vigors. Vigors are an afterthought, something included because Irrational was too worried that a Bioshock game wouldn't work without magical powers you can mutate yourself with. They don't relate to the story or themes of the game, they're not a part of the background of Columbia. Probably the worst part about this is that the game has a magic system that works with the themes. Tears can create portals to different times. Bioshock Infinite presents a society so obsessed over the past that it literally deifies the founding fathers. Booker's (and thus Comstock's) most formative experiences are in the past, and the game takes a ton of time to hammer home this past. Why aren't tears used in some way to tie into these ideas? If tears can be used to literally travel through time, why didn't Irrational write in a way for Comstock to, say, get a copy of the original Constitution? I don't know exactly how this idea could be used, but I do know that vigors just cheapen both games.

[@mattwoodard2535]

You missed some things as many others have done. Elizabeth states that when she was young (before the Syphon was turned on) she could make tears and go anywhere she wanted. In other worlds Elizabeth HAD been out of the Tower and had experience with the world. This is discussed just after getting back to Soldier's Field after leaving the Hall of Hero's. sm

[@yomama2376]

Yeah i only liked elizabeth in burial at sea. In infinite she was so inconsistently characterized, it was jarring.

[@steelhert4363]

In the DLC for the game, it is revealed that the Luteces actually told her to do so. They told her that it was the only way for her rebellion to win. She was told exactly what she had to do and the price that she would pay for it, but did it anyway. In reality, she was just helping to ensure that Elizabeth became a killer.

[@hollowman9410]

@@twigtwig3110 I know I am kind of late, but the fact that vigors are not only copies but a "superior" version of plasmids, further shows how much of an afterthought Vigors were. Not only are they drinkable, which is far better than having to get an injection, but the side-effects are pretty much non-existent or much easier to avoid, you know the side-effects that were one of the main focus on the first two games. What is more is that Colombia somehow has enough Adam to produce thousands of Vigors and Salts bottles, enough that they can pretty much be found everywhere in the city, despite the fact that Colombia being in the sky would not have much space to raise Sea Slugs. Yet somehow they have enough Adam to the point that they do not even need to use the little sisters or anything similar. They could have given Vigors a religious theme. Comstock could have been the one who "invented" the vigors, which would further reinforce his position as a holy figure. And then he would only give a select few the power of the Vigors, turning them into "saints". Giving Vigors to a select few would explain the non-existence Adam shorted, since very few people use Vigors on the first place and would also give more meaning to Booker's "false prophet" title since he is the only "non-saint" with the power of "miracles".

[@1gient]

2:24:20 Little Sisters can regenerate. Seem to recall somewhere mentioned one surviving the depths of the ocean but was in agonizing pain the entire time from being soda-popped. So, yeah, no guarantee about Sally surviving but it would be the slowest most agonizing way any Little Sister has gone. Little bit of fridge horror or nightmare fuel or whatever, it's even worse then that.

[@KamikazeeAliens]

True. Little Sisters are considered near immortal with the amount of healing the slug provides for them. There's an audio log somewhere that describes how a little sister broke her leg and it had to be rebroken to actually put it in place because it healed so quickly.

[@AcidicGumdrops]

Makes the family dinner scene in Fort Frolic that much more horrifying. The adult frozen statues bleed when you hit them, but the little girl does not. That’s a little sister frozen in there, and she’s trapped alive encased in plaster.

[@GamingWithHajimemes]

Well now I feel less bad about sacrificing 2 of them on that stupid escort mission in the first game-

[@watersomic]

The interesting thing about Bioshock 1 (and 2) and Infinite is that while yes, Objectivism as an ideology is more distinctly addressed and interwoven throughout the storytelling of the former, and American Exceptionalism is addressed more on a surface level as window dressing, I do think there's a distinct parallel between Adam being the Magic Stuff of Bioshock 1, and Tears being the Magic Stuff of Bioshock Infinite. Tears' use in Infinite feel almost incoherent compared to Adam in the first game, but as a tool of "reductio ad absurdum" of an ideology, there was potential. The difference was that Infinite drew too inward in just telling the story of Booker and Elizabeth, that every location they wind up in just becomes set-dressing, and the ways in which Tears can interweave into the ideology of Columbia becomes increasingly subtextual and obtuse. Still there, but way more buried beneath the plot going all over the place, and the mechanics of Elizabeth merging realities not coming across clearly to readers. I think the core concept of "Providence" and "Prophecy" with regard to Manifest Destiny is appropriately brought into question with Tears on-paper. The problem is that from a storytelling perspective, it's not nearly as well-linked and interwoven as Adam is with Bioshock 1. Tears are both somehow more over-centralizing in Bioshock Infinite than Adam is in Bioshock 1, yet also is more focused on its own idea rather than being used as a tool to examine American Exceptionalism overtly. For example, if Adam was approached in Bioshock 1 the way Tears are approached in Bioshock Infinite, then the story would start to go off the rails from being about how the world of Rapture and its citizens mutually shaped and were shaped by each other, and would instead over-centralize on just... what Adam can do, and maybe just character arcs that largely revolve around people using Adam to achieve different things. On the surface this seems like what Bioshock 1 does, but while I may feel that Infinite's story couldn't exist without Tears, I also feel that the story of Rapture could've largely played out even without Adam, and that to me speaks to the over-centralization of the Magic Stuff in the story. And this over-centralization alone wouldn't be a bad thing if Infinite didn't make various choices regarding its worldbuilding and storytelling, like again focusing more on Booker and Elizabeth alone, and not on how the use of Tears affects Columbia as a whole, not in a "here's a different Columbia, look at it" or "now everyone's memories are merged oh no" way, but in a present, fluid, and ongoing way. This is an issue caused mainly by Tears being a tool that only Elizabeth can primarily use, while everyone else needs specialized technologies to make full use of them. At most, citizens are only lucky enough to maybe hear a song by some future artist through a tear, or talk with someone on the other side, or again, happen to be merged with themselves from elsewhere. This is all interesting and fun, but neglects what Tears could do as something that relates to the ideologies at hand the way Adam relates to Objectivism. Imagine if Infinite leaned more on Tears as tools of providence by revealing certain constants to ordinary citizens, but also windows into variables as well that challenge the notions and assumptions ordinary people of Columbia have. This closed-off, cultish city has windows to the outside world, and you're telling me all it did at most was inspire a couple of people to plagiarize the work of future artists?? Imagine the kind of madness Tears could've induced on citizens, like Saltonstall being an analogue to Adam-ridden Splicers. Citizens who are so open minded they're driven mad to possibilities and variables that could challenge the ideology of Columbia, and yet other citizens that use the inevitable bombing of New York as justification for why they will remain loyal to Comstock in spite of that, etc. etc. There was just as much opportunity to use Tears as a means of "democratizing" the story to npcs the way Adam and audio logs did to Rapture's citizens. I'd love to hear a sideplot of a random citizen leaving audio logs of them being deadset in their ways of thinking people of different races can't live together, then meeting someone from like, modern day Canada through a tear and finding out indirectly that segregation isn't legal in America anymore, and by the end the last audio log completely change as a person due to what they heard. Meanwhile you can have someone use tears to confirm their biases somehow, like hearing about the atom bomb and thinking to themselves that the world below cannot possibly be saved, or maybe a cult starts about how the atom bomb is inevitable and Columbia must fall because it can't stop it from being made, and is therefore illegitimate as a true haven that'll last forever. There's just so many ways, through just more audio diaries alone and maybe some simple enemy npc encounters that Tears could've fleshed out, challenged, satire, and interweave the themes of Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism the way Adam and human reprogramming does with Objectivism in Bioshock 1 and 2.

[@evanrutledge-sz4yo]

I feel like they missed an opportunity for the hall of hero’s section. Imagine this, you’re walking through the section, seeing the patriots glorified for their heroic actions against the horrific savages and tyrants, fighting for truth, justice, and the Columbian way. But then, in the corner of your eye, you see a tear in the veil, just barely getting a glimpse on what’s in the other side as you hear it whisper softly in your ear, further igniting your curiosity and imagination. You walk towards it in eager anticipation, you turn your head to Elizabeth, herself eyeing the tear from a distance, except instead of wonder, she looks afraid, disgusted by its presence. Still however, you gesture towards it in eagerness, demanding her to open it. Elizabeth, closing her eyes, lifts her hands towards it, and pulls the tear apart by its seams, as she exhales all the breath within her, folding onto her knees as she tears open the veil. And on the other side of it, what was once hidden from your sight now presents its self, what was once in the dark comes to light. You see the army man gun down the natives who are fleeing, desperately trying to escape the storm of bullets that fly over their heads like the eagles above. In the distance you can hear the thunderous crack of whips, the sound echoing in your ear, as you turn to see slaves bend onto their knees in worship to their masters. You see people being hung from stakes, being cooked alive because of the false witnesses who testified against them. You see the truth. You look back at Elizabeth, who still stands on the other side of the rift, scared to cross over. You are presented with a choice, do you accept this reality, do you accept the truth, or do you back to the bliss of ignorance? I feel like the idea of time travel and alternate timelines could have mesh well if this games themes of exceptionalism, but the way it was implemented just didn’t mesh well with the overall game.

[@evan]

I really appreciated this whole critique! I recently replayed infinite with my girlfriend and she didn’t like it quite as much as I did but I definitely didn’t plan on showing her the DLC except the Paris bit

[@DavetheTurnip]

I don’t think the video was any messier than Infinite. You did a great job parsing what you liked, what you didn’t, and why. You’ve got a real gift for critique 😃

[@MontyZander]

Thank you!

[@jpHasABadHandle]

Somehow the algorithm suggested your Bioshock 1 critique to me just a few days before this one. I gotta say, this trilogy of yours is among the top ones of this platform. So thorough, clear, and concise! Already browsing through your earlier works.

[@Satherian]

Same. I love video essays and got recommended Bioshock 1 vid. Been binge watching this dude - he's so good

[@dracorex426]

It's weird that the playable character of a game with themes of racism and classism is a war criminal, participated in genocide, and is a fucking Pinkerton, but those facts aren't what the story is about.

[@UrLeingod]

It's also a bit wild that the game is willing to *tell* you all of those things about Booker, but only bothers to *imply* that he's mixed-race and several of his worst past actions were partly motivated by trying to prove his Whiteness in the face of discrimination over that.

[@runawayfromtoads674]

@@UrLeingod ngl i didn't even pick up Booker was mixed the entire time I played Bioshock Infinite.

[@keithrichmond4390]

Kinda like UrLeingod said, some of the guts of the story are contained in audio logs that you can pick up throughout the game. There was apparently just enough native american in Booker to catch the attention of one of his military superiors and he got some racial shade thrown his way, hence his participation at the wounded knee massacre, the baptism afterwards, and the creation of Columbia. It's a clever trick the writer's pulled; generally when a native american mixes with a white person it can sometimes be difficult to tell that they are only half white and it can become nearly impossible to tell after several generations. If he had been mixed with anything else the writers would have shown their hand.

[@LongSinceDead1]

@@keithrichmond4390 Wow, I didn’t even know that. What the fuck why doesn’t the game delve into that idea further? Flesh out Booker’s character and the analysis of the institutions of American racism by examining his urge to assert his “whiteness” through violence. Infinite is a game with such wasted potential; it introduces so many compelling and socially relevant themes and ideas and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing with them.

[@ObiJohnKenobi67]

@@runawayfromtoads674 In game Comstock talks about how Booker is of Native American ancestry

[@thegreatgoatking.kingofall4001]

The lobotomy scene in burial at sea feels so gross it makes me wonder if Ken wasn’t going through some sort of emotional fit at the time over the success of Infinite and struggling with some internal stuff. I mean this is a guy who was horrified when Rule 34 artists started drawing porn of Elizabeth and said something along the lines of “it’s like seeing porn of your daughter.” Burial at sea is such a strange response to the relatively small minority of criticism that ended up getting more flak that the things it tried to fix. Like swerving a car to avoid a deer and plowing into a gathering of baby harp seals

[@thomasjoychild4962]

It's just a... nasty unpleasant hopeless way to end Elizabeth's story and it slots into the first game's story badly because that story was complete and didn't HAVE anywhere for it to slot into. It's answering questions that weren't asked in the first place and explaining things that didn't need further explanation. And it's a nasty, pointless ending for Elizabeth.

[@BornIn1142]

Elizabeth should not have been a Disney Princess. There's something deeply incongruous about her being so pleasant and outgoing with a childhood of social isolation and experimentation. She is "likable," but this likability is a constant reminder of her being a processed and focus-tested device rather than an actual good character. The writers would not have dared to make her prickly or anxious (or a hindrance in gameplay) because that wouldn't have been likable.

[@TheJayson8899]

The story isn’t about Elizabeth being socially awkward. To have these traits would detract from the various other themes of the game and would likely come off as irrelevant, tacky or even tasteless.

[@davidartaviaaraya2727]

There's another retcons on burial at sea 2, in B2 delta dies on 1958 and according to an audio of Gil, Suchong died before the bonding of big daddies and little sister's before 58 but on burial at sea 2 Suchong dies on 59

[@thomasjoychild4962]

I thought Suchong always dies at the same time? He gets frustrated at the latest bonding attempt having seemed to fail, then smacks the little sister when she keeps trying to talk to him while he's dictating notes, then the big daddy-who actually WAS successfully bonded to the sister-drills him to death. I thought the inconsistency was in whether the big daddy was Delta (and the little sister was, therefore, Eleanor) or not? Suchong definitely died from the first working protector bond, right? In fact his death was the proof it had worked? I remember one of the plot points in B2 was that Delta and Eleanor were the first protector-gatherer pair to be successfully bonded. But I think in B1 you can actually find the big daddy that killed him and it's definitely not Delta?

[@rikuapologist]

i think my biggest problem with the way BS:I tackles anti-racist activism is that elizabeth doesn't push back against or even lightly question booker's false equivalency between comstock and daisy. booker himself is clearly not a hero or a moral authority, but elizabeth's role is that of the emotional heart of the story, and while she goes through her own moral evolution throughout the game she still tends to try to do the right thing and maintain a moral code and often push back against booker, especially before her first murder (which takes place AFTER the offending exchange) - having elizabeth question booker even a little bit at this crucial moment would have done a LOT to make the "how you spell the name" statement feel more like a reflection of booker's character and less like a reflection of the game's estimation of oppressed peoples fighting back. it could even have been a moment of growth for elizabeth to realise that moral choices aren't always b&w and fighting back against cruelty and oppression aren't as romantic as she initially thought - which elizabeth DOES seem to learn, even, as she becomes more disillusioned and realises what it will take to defeat comstock, just without ever seeming to make the connection between that and the vox populi smarter people than me have already discussed at length that the depiction of casual racism throughout columbia is portrayed with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. i don't think the problem that players (at least, players with any sense of nuance) have is the depiction of a violent revolution, but rather BS:I's lack of nuance, both in distinguishing the vox populi's violent revolution from the systemic violence of comstock's racist police state, AND in the general depiction of racism throughout the game that further contextualises this controversial moment and the sad end of daisy's storyline as A Bit Of A Yikes Moment. it doesn't help that the sombre mood afterwards is far more about mourning elizabeth's loss of innocence than mourning daisy herself. whatever you think about the daisy retcon in BAS (which i have my own complex feelings about but this comment is long enough already lmao), she was ALWAYS treated as a prop in elizabeth's story, and her death was not her own - it was always designed for elizabeth's character development, not for a commentary on revolution and oppression. imo at least BAS gave her some small degree of retroactive agency in allowing her to choose to play a part in comstock's downfall, if at the cost of her own life (which does not make up for the fundamental issues in the initial writing decision but at this point they'd written themselves into a corner there lmao) and tbh. i think the final depiction of daisy, a bloody-faced black woman and holding a gun to a distressed white child's head and needing to be "put down" (in a very visually brutal way, mind) by the (white) main character who acts primarily as the moral and emotional heart of the game, MIGHT have been A Little Less Yikes if there were literally any other significant named black revolutionary character in the game who acted and thought differently and could have allowed for more nuanced discussion/depiction. but as it is, daisy IS the only significant named black character, and so carries the weight of the game's and the player's judgement of black revolutionaries, regardless of authorial intent WE can look at the game and think Actually, Daisy Has A Point but that's because we're bringing our knowledge of the struggles of oppressed people into the game with us. i don't think it's fair to expect any work of media with complex, heavy themes to look an audience in the eye and explicitly spell out its perspective on them like it's concluding a school essay just in case the audience missed their point, but you have to take a step back and think: if i were TOTALLY uneducated on these topics, what beliefs/assumptions would this game teach or affirm? and imo the case BS:I has built up along the way up to this moment is so muddy and lacking in enough nuance that i and many others truly felt that the intended message was Racism Is Bad But Being Violent Makes You Just As Bad. if BS:I didn't WANT us to think daisy and comstock were just as bad as each other, they did a poor job of showing it and an even poorer job of telling it idk my own relationship with BS:I is complicated and despite everything i still have a big soft spot for the game - i LOVE the lush environments, the combat, elizabeth and her relationship with booker, and its handling of its less political themes, and i credit BS:I for being a big part of how i got into video games as a hobby. i just don't feel like i can really recommend it without a bunch of caveats and disclaimers :') because oof. they clearly had decent enough intentions but not the expertise on the subject matter to sensitively handle it

[@reilysmith5187]

Dude. The game mentions how Booker is a villain every chance it gets. It continually emphasizes how he is a born killer and doesnt shirk away from murdering people and doing evil. That is the foundation for him being erased from all timelines.

[@Li_Tobler]

@@reilysmith5187 because white man bad, obviously

[@finnicol-taylor2976]

This is really well thought out. Bioshock Infinite amazingly succeeds at creating a fun combat arena and interesting combat mechanics that hold up to replay value. The powers are great fun and the shooty shooty bang bang is great. The skylines are great and I wish more games had that idea. It utterly, resolutely fails at any kind of social commentary. It's so one note and obvious and even its morals are problematic when it's trying to make them progressive. It also takes a weird centrist viewpoint that totally misrepresents what centrism generally espouses. It's just a nothing game when it comes to messaging. Good thing that the kaboom ratatatatatata wheee zap pow is fun.

[@MrPeanutSniper]

@@reilysmith5187 And then that same guy basically says "what the fuck" when Elizabeth kills Fitzroy. If Booker is morally taken aback by something you just did, it might not be the most justifiable course of action. At this point in the story, Elizabeth's worldview, and literally the entire world that she's been captive to, is crashing and burning all around her. Tensions are exceptionally high, and one personal setback after another has likely driven desperation to panic. Like Fitzroy's own actions, no matter how regrettable the outcome, the result shouldn't be to dehumanize and "kill" the character, either literally in Fitzroy's case, or metaphysically in our interpretation of Elizabeth's identity, nor what is decidedly her story. Edit: Also, in partial response to the original comment, while I do wish more had been done to explicitly communicate that Booker's words were wrong, I think that the aforementioned stress is a decent - if purely interpretive - reasoning for why Elizabeth might not have felt up to arguing the point. As she is actively analyzing her own sense of morality, it could feel difficult and unfair, not to mention downright exhausting and fruitless, to try and dispute Booker at the current time. Also, screw BAS:2.

[@doodlebrain6594]

You said it perfectly

[@Cranthir69]

introducing the concept of a multiverse muddles the narrative of any story because it lessens the importance of time and its effects, yet i cant help but think what would happen if bioshock infinite pushed the timeline forward imagine if elizabeth and elena met and what kinda relationship they would have, i find it ironic that ken pretends that bioshock 2 never happened yet he wrote elizabeth in such a similar way to elena, they wore both sheltered kids imprisoned by their parents ideologies and grew to rebel against it, the connection they would’ve had is something i can only imagine

[@trilby3447]

Infinite has probably one of the best beginnings and endings to a game I’ve seen, how at first the phrase “give us the girl, and wipe away the debt” is translated as a rescue mission only to be revealed to mean giving up your own child, and how the ending shows the only path to a better ending is instead of letting booker make a choice, but to end him before he can ever make one to begin with

[@TrixyTrixter]

Heavily heavily disagree. the ending is shit and does not work at all. The beginning is fantastic but the further the game went the worse it becomes.

[@maxwellsamuel3255]

@@TrixyTrixter I disagree. It was mind blowing the first time I played it. despite the cut content I really enjoyed the pacing of the story. There was nothing stupid about it imo. This, Disco Elysium, TLOU, and soma are some of my favorite narratives in gaming.

[@TrixyTrixter]

@@maxwellsamuel3255 I do not think I need to try and explain anything. The entire story makes absolutely no sense going by the game worlds own logic.

[@mr.bubbles8351]

@@TrixyTrixter "game is sht, just trust me bro"

[@matthewdoesntlikeit]

This 3 part series is honestly like, maybe my favorite hours I’ve ever spent on KZbin. I don’t regret a single minute of the 7 hours I spent watching all of these. I know you considered TLOU2 overindulgent but I would LOVE a deep dive similar to this series done from TLOU1+2.

[@ObiJohnKenobi67]

My main problem with Infinite is just how much the social commentary is completely forgotten by the end. Comstock being Booker says nothing about American Exceptionalism or ultranationalism, so it just makes the first three quarters of the game pointless. They could have actually said something about Columbia’s social issues and their relation to the real world, like the original game did, but instead it just feels like window dressing, which isn’t what the subject matter Bioshock Infinite uses deserves

[@octaviantiolan5410]

Concentrating on a person's sins can in part be chalked up to pessimism. I wouldn't say it's revisionist though, since it's so easy to build an ideal image of certain historical figures to the point where they're almost deified, which is what Comstock has done. It is however undeniable that, once you bring a figure's sins to light, it's substantially more difficult to ignore them, it's disillusioning but it's important to know the greater story. We need to know the sins of the past so we don't repeat them.

[@TheGamerThing]

I think it easily become revisionist though. There are people that would, upon the mention of Churchills (for example), would shout about his sins and would have none of the good he did. You could easily end up with a revised outlook on the man

[@aeristhetics]

this series of bioshock critiques has been absolutely wonderful, theyve shot up to the top of my relisten playlist because they are just so fascinating, i cannot thank you enough for all the hard work you put into them, not to mention the stellar editing. im so happy to have found your channel! i cannot wait to see what games you cover next but would be really interested in seeing your thoughts and feelings on the dragon age series, if thats something youre interested in! no matter what, im positive ill love whatever is next! thank you monty!!!!!

[@FruitsFantasyKingdom]

This is the single greatest piece of analysis I have ever had the absolute pleasure of watching. You hit every theme, flaw, and moments of perfection in this game. I honestly agree with 99% of what you said here (i just really adore Burial at Sea) and you were able to say it so so so well. The level of research and time this must have taken... BRAVO! One thing you did get wrong though: "God Only Knows" was sung by The Beach Boys not the Bee Gees. ;)

[@rogerlynch5279]

I treid to tell this to people for years but most of the fanatical fans loving the game answered me with Hate Male

[@lukegilmore4273]

I think you misunderstood Elizabeth's superposition collapse in Burial at Sea ep 2. The ending is unwritten, by her dying. It is set in stone that will always happen and Burial at Sea takes place after it happens. Killing Booker/Comstock at the baptism doesn't affect her because like the Luteces she exists and doesn't exist at the same time. That act essentially trimmed the multiverse down to one Elizabeth the one remaining in the final cutscene where she lives out her days in Paris. However the trimming of the grotesque tree of Comstock left one branch open, a Comstock that was so removed from the events of Infinite he wasn't affected by the pruning so wishing to end it forever and get closure she kills him. Elizabeth still dies to the big daddy but she isn't affected by death the same way, she exists everywhere at all once so like the luteces can just be somewhere else however just being unable to return to that dimension. Feeling guilt for leaving Sally there she has the Luteces help her return but the caviat is that because she definitely died in that universe, returning there would mean collapsing her superposition in the fabric of space and time by forcing her way back into a dimension she can't return to. Returning to a dimension where she is dead essentially confirms to reality that she is no longer split among dimensions she is now solely in that one dimension hence the collapsing of her superposition. It may be confusing as it's quantum mechanics annoyance, but I enjoyed your critique of a game I really love.

[@MarcCapano]

I would imagine how insane it would be if we fought the Alpha series big daddy instead of the Bouncer

[@TehCakeIzALie1]

Burial At Sea would have been so much better as a non-canon 'what if?' story, with Booker and Elizabeth's characters simply transposed into Rapture.

[@HexManiac-nf1yg]

I feel like I'm one of the few people that just didn't care about Elizabeth. Like to the point where I genuinely think if she wasn't as cute as she is then she wouldn't have been nearly as popular as she was

[@karltonkinley3745]

great vid, definitely the best series of bioshock critiques on youtube. btw, “god only knows” is the beach boys, not the bee gees. have fun with the thousands of pedantic comments pointing that out

[@MontyZander]

I wish I could say it was on purpose to get algorithm boosting comments but… nope. Just brain fog!

[@wetterschneider]

I don't know if this came up in the game - but the "cage or bird" choker art is a famous toy/optical illusion/craft. A disc of card with the cage on one side and the bird on the other is spun on a twisted thread. Persistence of vision creates an image of a bird in a cage. In the metaphor of the game, the superposition of choices is an eternally trapped bird. 2nd thought - the ending of this game and the ending of Butterfly Effect the movie are the same.

[@TimDownsAnimation]

THANK YOU for addressing the issue of subtitles. It's such a glaring flaw in all three games.

[@AwkwOtter]

I went into infinite without knowing about all the promise, just knowing past games and the trailers. I loved it and even after learning all that I still do. It could have been more yet for me it was more than enough

[@strelet555]

I think where Infinite gets in hot water with the Fitzroy/Populi situation is the way that the Revolution as depicted fulfills many of the most fevered projections of white nationalist rhetoric about slave revolts and race wars - a preoccupation in American cultural discourse since the founding. In the Soldier’s Field level, you see racist depictions of Native Americans and the Chinese as violent, barbaric, and sadistic. A constant claim of white supremacists is that violence and absolute control over racial others is necessary due to the inherent violence of these racial others, violence that they would visit upon innocent white women and children save for the rough men ready to do violence on their behalf. When the revolution comes, you see not only the violence and chaos inherent to any armed conflict, but also abundant evidence of deliberate atrocities. The persecuted racial minorities of Columbia are not only overthrowing the armies and structures that keep them enslaved, they are also visiting revenge upon the white populace at large. That white populace’s complicity in their oppression is allowed to fade into the background as the immediate violence of the reprisals is placed in the foreground. The board of scalps - even if it was done by Preston Downs - seems to echo the scalping in the racist exhibits earlier in the game. The touchstone is not the French Revolution, as much as the game would like it to be, but rather the fears around the Haitian Revolution, which sparked great anxiety in the United States of the time. We're not in the time of Robespierre, we're in the moment of John Brown. It is not just a “both sides” issue, or a misanthropic skepticism about the innate evil of people, or an off-key attempt to have realistic consequences for violence in a hereto campy, pulpy, schlocky game series. It is that Infinite blunders into echoing the rhetoric of scumbags as varied as Charles Manson and Alex Jones, depicting a revolution that satisfies the predictions of white racists that oppressed minorities will commit atrocities upon whites as soon as they can. I think this mostly comes from the game trying to juggle too much at once - the personal Booker/Elizabeth plot about the inherited cycle of violence meeting the history of American racism and the two mixing poorly and clumsily. The best thing would have been for Infinite to just... not go for the Fitzroy plot at all. I don't think Infinite looks at racism seriously and deeply enough for it to be a worthwhile comment to its story about the violence Booker has done to the world, himself, and his daughter. You could still have Columbian society be racist, but don't place race relations and the struggle for justice and equality as incidental episodes in your plot.

[@MontyZander]

Really really good points - thank you!

[@o5-693]

Very rarely do you see a comment this well laid out, and easily digestible yet intelligent on KZbin. Awesome points man.

[@CAMSLAYER13]

The french revolution was just as violent and terrible as any other, there is a reason the time right after is called "the age of terror" , revolutionarys know the danger of people forming groups and usually try to cement control by removing any disagreements.

[@r.w.9631]

I think theres nothing wrong with the baseline of both sides being evil in the end. Its weakness comes from the amount of time exploring the way this conflict was portrayed, not the way the conflict was portrayed.

[@strelet555]

@@CAMSLAYER13 My apologies for not returning your comment sooner. The character of the French Revolution is an extensive topic that fills countless books and hours of footage, so I feel it is a little beyond the scope of this comment section to give it the full detail it deserves. The quick version is that revolutions are neither automatically vile or virtuous, they are not intrinsically violent or peaceful, and my comments here are to highlight how the game looks to Le Miserables and the French Revolution as a touchstone, overlooking the more relevant Haitian revolution and the whole discourse of slave revolts. The game's commentary on the subject is too short and incomplete to avoid unfortunate implications.

[@MrBunnyLikesToDance]

I must say your game critiques are fantastic! You are able to both analyse a game effectively, focusing on every aspect of the game, and articulate your ideas in a clear yet concise way. Also, such a large emphasis is put on the story a game tries to tell and it's deeper philosophical meaning which makes for a very interesting watch. I thank you for the time and effort you put into these videos.

[@ino7604]

The whole bioshock franchise is utterly fantastic. Some of my favorite games especially infinite

[@mariokarter13]

I always viewed the ending as a promise that every BioShock game would be a spin on the same premise: There's always a man, there's always a city, there's always a lighthouse. Then the DLC cut off that possibility because the developer went bankrupt.

[@Vulgarth1]

The problem I have with Bioshock Infinite's resolution of events isn't that Booker and Elizabeth/Anna do what they do, it's that the writers wrote them to do it. To explain what I mean, you hafta understand that outside Infinite's narrow definition of multiverses and determinism is the fact that drowning Booker is not the only way. Infinite Bookers and Elizabeths will always eventually end up at Booker drowning because that's how it was written, but the fictional reality is that every Booker could be turned away from the baptism and it would accomplish the same thing as drowning him. Anna won't be pulled into an alternate reality by Comstock because Comstock won't ever be, therefore Colombia won't exist, therefore a Lutece won't come to take Anna. According to the game's multiversal rules, anyway. Implicitly, you are told at the end of the game that the new constant is that Booker will be drowned by Elizabeth and retcon every single universe featuring Comstock and Booker post-baptism out of existence...which makes it a paradox that can't possibly happen because the tears aren't just universe hops but time-travel too. Elizabeth and Booker can't come to this event because they never can come to this event because their journey never happened. So the ending of the game actually reinforces the determinism that it attempts to circumvent by having Booker be drowned. Booker *cannot be drowned* if the events of the game take place, because if Booker is drowned, the events of the game *never took place*. Whether it's Our Booker or not, no Booker can actually be drowned, because he gets drowned in the past of every timeline of every universe, as implied by the story. It stops being a multiversal rewriting of history by junctioning off before a constant can occur. Instead, it's a fatalistic reinforcing of determinism because the plot gets turned into a time-travel paradox story at the climax. The alternate reading is that *only* Our Booker is drowned which does nothing to prevent Colombia from existing, because Booker is drowned *after he already passed the point of becoming Booker or Comstock.* (All of which means that Burial At Sea actually makes the original game's story make the most sense it's ever made, I'm sorry Monty.)

[@tvdvd8661]

Tldr

[@jpHasABadHandle]

@@tvdvd8661 Can't read a couple of sentences? Come on...

[@TheReZisTLust]

@@jpHasABadHandle plz hop off the high horse at least, thats like a few paragraphs

[@mattwoodard2535]

Um, the only Bookers that were drown were the ones that accepted the baptism to become Comstock. If you listen you can hear the preacher as Booker what his new name will be (Comstock) right before Elizabeth pushes Booker under. Our Booker is there because they need a Constant (to kill Comstock) to keep the Comstocks from having any chance to survive. sm

[@lorenzocassaro3054]

@@mattwoodard2535 That's the neat part: Elizabeth drowned ALL the Bookers before the baptism She even says it: "before the choice is made, before you are reborn" Booker making his choice (staying Booker or becoming Comstock) was the constant that she wanted to eliminate As another review said, the act of drowning Booker before he makes the choice, in order to eliminate the constant altogether (and the risk of becoming Comstock) isn't cutting the rotten branches: it's cutting the whole stem away! This plot just doesn't work, dammit! 🤦🏻

[@boomkruncher325zzshred5]

I got some ramblings about Burial at Sea and Elizabeth that come to mind. I apologize if they are not logically put together and they ramble on, but I hope it’s an interesting discussion nevertheless. Burial at sea is what happens when somebody messes with forces they don’t understand. Elizabeth goes from this doe-eyed innocent to a cynical villain because she has seen everything by this point. She’s explored all of reality, seen all its beauty… and couldn’t stop thinking about the Bookers and Comstocks. With her powers, she could end every one of them and wipe them from existence, even the innocent ones, even the redeemed ones, even the heroic ones, and so much more. Elizabeth’s dimension-hopping and becoming that multiversal “goddess” created a retcon to the reality that made the first Bioshock game, and Burial At Sea Part 2 is Elizabeth fighting tooth and nail to make sure the game happens “as it is supposed to”. But, that results in her coming to terms with the consequences of her actions. History is rewritten, the plot is nearly derailed and reality itself could fracture unless things are “set back on course”. I think it’s unfair to assume that Elizabeth wouldn’t become a cynical manipulator of fate after achieving multiversal goddess powers; similarly, I think it’s unfair to assume Elizabeth wouldn’t face consequences for her actions now that she can manipulate fates across multiple timelines and dimensions. Her fall as a character was inevitable, in a sense. Elizabeth is this epitome of the Ayn Randian protagonist: she was put into a powerless situation, and with her powers and abilities she throws off the shackles of family, of duty, of government, of racism and societal pressure, of reality itself, and becomes the ultimate self-made person. Her isolation as a child was just a cage holding her back, when she finally breaks it all reality is open to her. Her riches and privileged position were never earned by her, and she rejects them once she is no longer imprisoned. The Comstocks and Booker DeWitts could be seen as parasites clinging to Elizabeth’s greatness, and in time Elizabeth did away with those too. But, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Her single-minded crusade to end the Bookers and Comstocks left her cut off from her powers and abilities, because she got what she wanted. The rest of Burial at Sea was her cleaning up the mess that she made in her self-righteous goddess-hood, and once she finishes that clean-up to set up Jack to do what he is going to do, she can rest, her life ending as another victim of Frank Fontaine, just like many before. She dies as human as anybody else can be.

[@iHaveTheDocuments]

I loved that clip of Jeremy saying it's THE best story in a first person shooter ever. Reminds you not to automatically trust things said with unwavering confidence from a popular reviewer.

[@kyletotten1685]

People do need to not take a reviewers word and just repeat its great. They should play it and come to their own conclusion. The game is good but defying it doesn't let you appreciate what it is doing right and where it fails. Neither does just hating on it for not being what you wanted.

[@Akechifan]

Reminds me of when Angry Joe acted like Skyrim was the second coming of Christ. My bias and nostalgia tell me Skyrim is a masterpiece but the older I get the more I realise that it really isn't at all. Although I'll defend Oblivion to the ends of the earth that game will always be a 10 for me.

[@BruceWayne-fj9bm]

@@Akechifan Skyrim came out in 2011. Of course it may seem dated or flawed, but for the time it was revolutionary and great. It was the metaphorical second coming of Christ within open world RPGs and completely changed the genre and landscape of western RPGs forever. And Angry Joe wasn’t the only one who thought this. Also Skyrim is infinitely better than Oblivion.

[@samuelgeaney7556]

@@BruceWayne-fj9bm Skyrim isn't an RPG

[@dubvuchyea502]

He's a hack fraud and a shill.

[@AK-yp2bt]

I unfortunately played Bioshock Infinite first in the series, on the year it was released and not knowing anything around philosophy, the game, the tropes or anything really, I have to say...when the game ended and saw the final cutscenes of Booker and Comstock, realizing what happened and Elizabeth losing her pinky, it was the first time that I felt chills down my spine with a plot twist in a game. Despite its flaws, mistakes or any other criticism, Bioshock is one of those games you can easily replay just for the story.

[@TheSwedishChef06]

It's so refreshing to see the U.S constitution and culture being viewed by someone outside of it. Great video and critique, love your stuff.

[@creepykels]

I learned a lot more about the game itself, it's story, and themes in your critique and summary than in any other Infinite critique, very well presented and clearly articulated. I still hate this game with a burning passion ever since playing it on release, but your critique helps me see why you feel the way you feel and respect it. Great video!

[@reilysmith5187]

Then you havent watched American Krogans review which is even longer and more in depth.

[@jman2856]

@@reilysmith5187A Neo Nazi’s perspective on a game satirizing racism, American nationalism, Christianity, white supremacy means zilch.

[@darrennew8211]

Just to clarify for non-USA people: The constitution can certainly be argued with. It has been amended dozens of times. The "Bill of Rights" is just the first 10 things added to the constitution, way back when. The only restriction is that these bits of law, restricting what the government can and cannot do, are important enough that you need more than 51% vote to make it happen. If 90% of the people really wanted to get rid of guns, they could repeal the 2nd amendment and be done with it. Pass an amendment outlawing guns, and there ya go. We did it with alcohol. Look at countries where the sitting president decides to amend the constitution unilaterally to eliminate term limits. Guess what we call that sort of thing? Yah, tyranny.

[@leviloos9924]

That's the beauty of amendments they can be amended. If the majority of the country are really set on stiffer gun regulations they should vote accordingly.

[@curtweston2156]

I was wondering why he didn't mention this point. That is one of the strengths of the constitution and the way it was setup. It can and sometimes should be amended.

[@TheWendo101]

One thing I will say is that Ellie in the last of us CAN be hurt and/or get in the way, but I think the mixture of characterization and excellent AI pathing really make it a huge cut above what we usually expect from escort missions. Elizabeth is actually invincible but I think it’s to the games benefit and it’s handled very well.

[@madcircle0461]

Ellie cannot be hurt or killed in the last of us combat. I don’t know what game you played but it wasn’t tlou.

[@TheWendo101]

@@madcircle0461 there are moments where she will get grappled by a clicker or something and it will game over if you don’t react fast enough. It’s a little red plus with a circle around it that slowly drains.

[@The_Exorcist]

"Well what do you think dear brother?" "Well you already know what I think, why say it?" "Well, why don't I just say it? Perspective. It's all a matter of perspective." "Good." "Bad." "Dissapointing." "Excellent." "Actually I think there's a mid-point there." "Well surely not every situation only has 2 perspectives and views." "Either way, we definitely carry the game regardless good or bad." "I'm sure there's a world somewhere where the game reaches the full potential and is acclaimed, praised by all." "Except the DLC." "Hm, yes, you're right. I don't think even a coin flip that fix that."

[@daughterofluthien]

Okay, I have to admit, I loved burial at sea when I first played it, but that was before I played the first game, so you’re definitely bringing me around to your side on this one. One tiny nitpick, however-you mention that the teachers being allowed to use possession on children flies in the face of objectivism, but didn’t you mention in the first bioshock video that under objectivism, children have the potential to become fully realized individuals, but aren’t yet. They don’t have the absolute right to free choice that adults have (which is why creating the little sisters don’t go against that philosophy). So, using possession on adults would be anathema (or anyone that Ryan considers ‘a man’, after all he’s more than willing to mind control Jack because he considers him lesser), but doing it to kids is okay

[@MontyZander]

Really really good point!

[@adster199]

I may have not been here since the first, but I have appreciated the insight you have shown, and as a person who was in the minority of enjoying BS2, i’m glad to hear that more people have begun to enjoy it as much as I have, warts and all. We may not get the infinite we deserved, but we got one still worth playing, if nothing else, to experience the whole circle, from Jack, to Delta, to Elizabeth.

[@Train1231122]

Started this mini-series loving Ken Levine, ended it really frickin' tired of Ken Levine.

[@trampoline11x]

I cant help but feel it would have gone better if they had broken up Infinite and its base story in to two separate game sequels, kind of like 1 and 2 did. There was a lot packed in to infinite, but so much of the connective tissue and body feels under developed in places. I think it would mean a lot of padding, but there are just some elements I feel like could have been lingered on for us to explore more, and really give it a depth the first two had.

[@marioruiz1530]

I don’t really hate the game, I think it’s pretty good at what it does, but at the end of the day: as someone who played the games in reverse order, the first two are by far the better ones and my favorites, infinites story is just too contrived and absurd, but still enjoyable (if you ignore burial at sea).

[@thumbbeforefingermusicplay7827]

This is an amazing and well written video. I liked how you went in-depth with every critique made rather than just a single line and moving onto the next topic. This was a wonderful and insightful watch overall

[@TheGCRust]

Found your channel via the Bioshock reviews and the algorithm. Stayed for the fantastic other reviews in addition. Looking forward to this, and glad to hear about Burial At Sea aka "The DLC I refuse to acknowlege." EDIT: The plushie joke got a legit belly laugh out of me in the workplace break room

[@abracadaverous]

The reason that upgrade costs so much more than the upgrade you encounter earlier in the game is that those are two entirely different upgrades that do different things. It is confusing though. Each vigor has two possible upgrades, and each weapon has four. It's confusing to new players, since it's possible to play the entire game without ever looking at either menu (or noticing the upgrade markers if they do), which is its own problem.

[@LifeontheBellCurve]

What makes 1 & arguably 2 far better from a theme standpoint is how it went about it's commentary. I could believe a world where a man had a arguably pure vision only for it all to get corrupted and fail. 1&2 were smart because they made observations without telling you what exactly to think about them. The first two had nuance. I never got the idea that Ryan was evil but rather wanted to best that got corrupted into the worst I never thought that Lamb was completely evil but rather consumed by her ideals to the point she sacrificed her humanity. In Infinite, they show you the problems, rub your face in them, then hammer into you exactly what you should think. To the narrative is so ham-handed. There is no nuance.

[@MontyZander]

I think DJ Peach Cobbler said it better than I ever could - “Andrew Ryan might not have been a philosophy you agreed with. But you at least saw his point of view. When he asks “Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?” The obvious answer is Yes! But when Comstock asks “should we enslave black people and worship everything the founding fathers said?” Most players answer will be “what the fuck are you talking about!?”

[@LifeontheBellCurve]

@@MontyZander after having pondered on it, I would say that the first game is about the wanton desire to make decisions free of consequence, the second game is about dampening consequences by destroying choice. They had a chance to make a clandestine point about how the two are inseparable in the third. I remember finishing Infinite the first time and thinking what a vapid point it was making. They threw the baby out with the bath water by saying that choice and consequence are irrelevant. Infinite's point voids any meaning by simply telling the player that choices are irrelevant and it's foolish to fight an outcome that is perceived as inevitable. What's the point in trying? Why play their game at all if there is no real point to any choice the player makes. Granted, the first two games didn't really give the player many choices that drastically altered the games plot but the overall points to the exercise were there.

[@LifeontheBellCurve]

@@MontyZander if anything I think Infinite is kind of a jab at Mormonism moreso that anything. After reading a fair amount of the book of Mormon, I got those kind.of vibes from Columbia. I don't know if the parallels were intentional or not.

[@maestro_nik]

The deal with America and it's constitution as an American myself is this. We cannot trust those who would rule to change it, and any changes made to it in the interim have increased the corruption of the rulers. Important and necessary additions to it are indeed required, but those additions and changes require a group of people who can think past party boundaries and individual powers. If it was a perfect world we would have term limits for senators and congress, no lobbying, a bar on familial dynasties residing in positions of power, no political stock trading. No one is willing to do these things

[@cutealiens]

You are very, very good at this. You have so much to say that you can talk for almost 3 hours without ever repeating yourself or overindulging on a single point.

[@breezus3928]

When people focus only on a person's good qualities or deeds, they usually do it to justify giving that person a lot of attention, usually because doing so benefits them ex. deiafying the Founding Fathers helps give shine onto the current politians who took their place and they can use our positive feeling about the FF to manipulate us into doing whatever to defend the country they made. On the flip side, people may focus only on the negative qualities or deeds of a person to justify dismissing or forgetting about that person, so a "throw the whole man out" approach. Beneficial if you want curb that person's influence on the present, but the danger is throwing the baby out with the bathwater aka not learning from history at all. What is best is for a person to look at many different sources to the learn about the many facets of a person or event and then make up your mind about what lesson you can learn from this that might help you in your own life...but that takes time and effort, and some people actively don't want anyone to be able to out of self-interest. So...yeah.

[@WaTlvr506]

First off, loved your critique series and binged the three bioshock videos you have. I think the game do Vilify Daisy Fitsroy in original game when she kills the child and thus, vilify her and her bloody revolution and say "revolution is bad because, violence" and Burial at Sea's revision of that scene do take that back a notch to "Daisy isn't a rage filled killing machine without reason. Yes, revolution is bloody but not necessarily evil" but I'm not black (but am Asian) so idk how much weight I actually have on this issue.

[@Pangora2]

All thinking people have the same weight on an issue. If certain people had greater ability to interact with media they should be charged a different price. Kids get cheaper tickets at the movies, after all.

[@HyperionStudios]

To add to the list of "isms", I would probably want to add "Idealism" in there and how even Irrational fell into the very themes they were trying to convey in the game. The myriad of concepts left on the cutting room floor, the larger than life portrayal of Columbia, the idea of jumping between universes, and even the vague points of the illusion of choice. Comstock's Columbia is a reflection of Irrational's idealism when approaching development. Wanting to push a bombastic world filled with endless possibilities, but focused and portrayed with tremendous finality with each story beat leading up to the end. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but Idealism in Comstock's vision could be seen as a mirror of what the developers wanted or were trying to package together in Infinite at the end of the day.

[@teeess1909]

Thank you for being a role model in the nonfiction writing space, I look to your form when writing extensively on an experience

[@dayzamenard]

as a lakota, i think the use of wounded knee was completely tasteless and used as shock value. booker is never punished for his crimes and the story never touches back on this detail other than a few voxophones (hidden dialogue) later in the game. theres also a lack of research with native history. booker is not "sioux", hes tetonwan (lakota dialect) - oceti sakowin. "sioux" is a slur used by the french after they mispronounced the ojibwe language. there were no native soldiers. no "good" indians. everyone was "punished" for custers death. booker wouldnt have LIVED if he was at wounded knee.

[@maxlvl912]

It says a lot about the quality of this analysis that despite my utter fatigue with the raft of Bioshock videos being recommended to me near weekly, you kept me engaged for the entire near three hour video. A lot of really fresh reads and insights here that not many people touch on. Great video, gained a sub from me!

[@meme2868]

I think bioshock infinite is sort of like the last of us part 2. There are a lot of ideas going on, some conflicting and some half baked, but I still can’t get over how enjoyable of a mess it is, it’s a mess with a lot of really amazing work put into it. It just keeps you thinking about it even years later.

[@TehCakeIzALie1]

It really shows how important the medium is. If either were a book by a popular author, the story alone would probably make it a poor book. As a blockbuster film? Maybe acceptable if they really nail the visuals, but still suffering for its story. A triple-A game, on the other hand, doesn't rely as much on story or visuals alone - the combination of an alright story, reasonably enjoyable gameplay and striking visuals makes for a solid mainstream game. 6/10.

[@anatomy_antonym]

To me personally, it feels like Infinite is saying that redemption is not an option; the ends never justify the means, and no matter what you do, if there is any blood on your hands, you are condemned. The Daisy Fitzroy twist (without Burial at Sea’s context) and the reveal of Dewitt’s connection to Comstock are perfect examples-a revolutionary cannot break their chains because that would be too violent, a man cannot break the cycle of abuse because it will just keep following him. The circle will remain unbroken. (And I’m not one to defend Christianity, but Ken Levine’s hatred of religion really shows here. Dewitt quite literally compares his baptism to “running away from his problems”, and furthermore the baptism is the literal catalyst for his slide into villainy as Comstock. What did baptisms do to deserve your condemnation, Levine?) And furthermore, when looking at Burial at Sea, the same theme of “redemption is impossible” can be seen with Elizabeth’s corruption. She killed Daisy, thinking she was protecting a child, and yet Daisy was innocent, just following orders, therefore making Elizabeth also prey to the no-redemption ideology. She dies like Booker dies; inevitably, as punishment for actions that were arguably out of her control. It just feels bad to me. I don’t like the rhetoric that no matter how much you want to do better, you can’t. And I think that’s my single biggest issue with Infinite, right next to the carelessness with which racism is handled; above the misuse of multiverses and the plot holes and weird mechanics-it’s the idea that if you make a mistake or do something wrong, you cannot ever make it right. (Great video btw)

[@asscheeks3212]

You're think too much into the religion thing. Booker is a bad person. Regardless if he is Christian or not Christian. Saying otherwise is insecurity from either an Atheist or Christian if they are defending either Bookers.

[@marocat4749]

@@asscheeks3212 True, the issue isnt religion itself, its itr being used to control people or use it to excuse their own terrible actions. And booker undoubtly did that. Its very strange with elisabeth?! why, she wasnt a terrible person.

[@asscheeks3212]

@@marocat4749 she is a bad person though? Bas episode 2 is just a game dunking on her killing some poor Comstock that was redeeming himself, her punishment was dying alone in rapture where she rots forgotten. Both Booker and Elizabeth are terrible people who deserve their fates, but that's what makes them interesting

[@thomasjoychild4962]

I'd say that actually Comstock's path of villainy wasn't directly about accepting the baptism, it was in what he took from it. The division between Booker and Comstock wasn't about god, god was just a mechanism, it was about forgiving themselves and/or letting themselves move on from what they'd done. If Comstock had just taken a meaning of forgiveness from having been baptised, in the sense of "I have done these awful things but through my sincere regret/repentance for them and through god's love I am unburdened by them and will use the experience to be a better person going forward", then he wouldn't have wound up the villain that he did. Comstock, from what we see ingame, instead took VINDICATION from the baptism, the belief that his actions were retroactively good and right, cut to years later and he's bragging about the massacres he participated in through musical extravaganza exhibits in the hall of heroes. It's an easier path, thinking that actually you never did anything wrong to begin with, but's one that lead him to become a monster. Comstock mistook forgiveness for vindication, that was the catalyst for who he became.

[@wausjackbauer128]

1.6 thousand people dislike this video? Crazy people - this video is excellent