John Shelby Spong - Fourth Gospel Warns Against Literal Reading

[@a.t.6322]

John Shelby Spong. One of the most honest and informed Bishops the Church has ever had. Excellent.

[@rrickarr]

A wonderful man who I had the opportunity to play the organ for at a confirmation service.

[@michaeltelson9798]

I had served Mass with him as an acolyte

[@Tryin2findout]

I have followed John Shelby Spong for a decade. His The Fourth Gospel: Tales of a Jewish Mystic is a must read.

[@Spider_7_7]

How is it different from "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism?"

[@tooradixx]

I appreciate the personal struggles you went through as well as the price you paid to have internal peace. Thank you!

[@jartotable]

John shelby spong is why I've subscribed.💖

[@DrSteveMcSwain]

Wow. If you are looking for a new way of understanding the Christian story, start here. Don't bother if you don't have the interest or the desire to do the work. But, for those who are looking for a way to move beyond the heresy of Biblical literalism that was so very much a part of the upbringing of many of us and for those who are looking for a way to understand the scriptures in light of the modern, scientific world in which we live, this is about as good a place I know to begin that journey of discovery. Spong frightens many insecure Christians but what reformer didn't? Frankly, what he has to say must be heard...must be grappled with...or, honestly, I think the Christianity of tomorrow will be made up largely of two groups - those who've left it - which is rapidly becoming a larger and larger group - what Spong affectionately refers to as "the Church Alumni Association" and fundamentalist Christians on the other side who cling to their literalist approach to scripture...who believe in magic and miracle and a world of make-believe.

[@bobfree1226]

not at all sir, the bible uses metaphors, figures of speech an is not always to be taken literally except where its literal. the bible has to use metaphors and figures of speech cause its trying to communicate to us from an infinite perspective as we are finite. spong is far overdoing it in many areas in His lieralism. when jesus says he IS the bread life -he is not saying he is bread!! the devil is like a dragon or serpent but he is really not. However when jesus says I AM the alpha and omega or i rose from the dead. thats literal but again spong decimates the holy bible in many areas an is heretical thru and thru. not because i say it-because the bible very is clear on essential doctrine. you had been do more research friend.

[@DrSteveMcSwain]

Appreciate the threats. Happy Holidays.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

@@bobfree1226 - I appreciate the nuance in your post. I believe in God. I believe that Jesus Christ was real. I don't believe that he was the son of God, except in the way we all are children of God. My lack of belief in his specific divinity does not, in my opinion, hurt the core of Jesus's message as generally portrayed in the Bible. I have never understood why the trinity is important. Given the broader message of the New Testament, I have come to believe that the statement attributed to Jesus as him being the only way to God is a misquoted statement. It seems more likely Jesus was saying that as he had to think about God personally, so must we all. Clearly, I am taking liberties with the Bible to come to my conclusions, but I think they are reasonable conclusions. Stay well.

[@bobfree1226]

@@StrategicWealthLLC ALL heresies begin with the Nature of GOD,as Jesus said to the Apostles , Who do men say that I AM? here Jesus is provoking a direct answer. Only GOD can forgive sin,and Jesus must be GOD, as He told the Pharasees ,which one of you can convict me of sin! In order for our sins to be forgiven we must look to the cross in order to recieve Salvation.Thats what the Gospel is all about.GOD pitching HIS tent with us as Isaiah said.Son of GOD means God.You cannot be part God. When Jesus was talking with the pharasees He said to them, which Good deeds do you want to stone me for? An they said we dont want to stone you for any good deeds but for Blasphemy,your a Mere Man,yet you make yourself Equal to God!! the Pharsees also were persecuting Jesus because He called God His Father,making again himself Equal to GOD!! They knew exactly what He was saying!! ALL people are Saved by Jesus Alone,but we dont have to KNOW jesus to be saved.All in the old testament and before Jesus did not know jesus but was told that a deliverer was to come.Jesus again told the pharesees Moses who you put your hope and faith in,is the very one who will accuse you,for not believing in ME. In Romans Paul says no man has any excuse for not believing,as We all have the light of conscience and the light of creation within us. john 1 verse 4-9 says All men have grace n light which is christ. IF we have faith in GOD and respond to the light, then he will give us the lIght of christ. Read 1 john ,where he says we beheld HIS GLORY,we touched HIM,ate with HIM. Thomas my LORD and MY GOD. Titus we are awaiting the Great God and Our Savior Jesus Christ. So BRUCE its imperative where and who you put your faith n trust in. GOD reveals Himself as 3 persons or personailties within the GodHead. We cannot comprehend that but we Can apprehend that from scripture. NO man can forgive Sin,as ALL men are Sinners. ONLY GOD can forgive sins!! God Bless

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

Bob Free - So says the Bible, but the Bible was not written by Jesus or God. It was not organized by Jesus or God. It was written and organized by men that say they were inspired by Jesus or God. Feel free to organize your beliefs off of someone else’s beliefs all you like. I prefer to use my own mind.

[@deysicatalinaramirez5428]

Beautiful message.

[@metaknowledge2010]

A refreshing look at the Gospel of John, humorous too.

[@rebeccabalnis3987]

This gives me such hope. Thank you.

[@karachaffee3343]

A written language is a double edged sword. A thing of amazing power to communicate and simultaneously a potentially deadly trap leading to rigid and linear thinking.

[@katrinabergmanmccolloch5948]

We need more men like John Shelby.

[@MikeJunior94]

56:30 I really don't get this. The Gospels only say that they did see, not that they did not see. Granted, two of the Gospels simply don't record that they saw but they don't say they didn't see. That is very different. How you can get a contradiction from a statement that isn't made is astonishing to me.

[@Servant_of_1111]

Thank you 🙏🏻

[@ihatetheparty6340]

The "living water" of Jesus is mentioned in Jeremiah 2:13, 17:8, 13*, Zechariah 14:8. (I did not use a computer to make these connections; some way that there is no O.T. reference to "living water"!).

[@jonathantshibula9627]

Believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved..Be baptized and repent of your sins. Repent simply means to turn away from your sins. God loves you and so do I.

[@scottsmith9691]

kind of sad when intelligent, scholarly exploration so often evolves into a new evangelization in which any person or group of people who thinks differently is mocked and scorned.

[@ihatetheparty6340]

Let's all agree con this: everyone, no matter what religion he professes, prays to the invisible one god. Since they're all praying to the ONE god, why then should people be fighting and killing each other ON THE BASIS OF RELIGIOUS ANTIPATHY? It just doesn't make sense! (The medieval Crusades was an EVIL that simmers to this day!)

[@skwozies3083]

I do not know if I can agree on that. I would assume that people are honest about their religious beliefs and try to worship what they believe to be true. But their depictions of their God/Gods do not line up. They contradict each other on nearly every point of doctrine and description of the Deity and its actions even within the same religion and the same denomination. It is the inability to spread their beliefs via rational discussion that leads to the sword as the only method to ensure their religious ideas win. As for me, I do not pray to any God because I do not believe in one. There may be one that exists. I do not know. What I do know is that I do not know nor do I have any justifiable reason to believe in one. As such I must be content in admitting that I do not believe in one yet. I used to believe in Young Earth Creationism as I was a Non Denominational Christian for 18 years. That version of God cannot be true though so I quite that line of thinking for more philosophical thinking and a search for the truths we have found in the sciences. Science is neutral in regards to the Question of what we ought to believe about supernatural things and so I try to remain open to what others might present as evidence of their God but I cannot find it. I must be content in knowing that if a God exists then it is the job of that God to reveal himself if the deity so chooses.

[@michaeljechon6139]

The "Gods" sound an awful lot like an allegory for the inner dual nature of man (peace:wrath; love: hate; vengeful; merciful) to me. These are indwelling Spirits in all of mankind.

[@TheLkmlee]

Just curious, you state that in the story of Jonah, that" he was swallowed by the fish and never even gets wet." However, Jonah 2:3 says "You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me. I understand this story is not to be taking literally, but how are we to interpret your views and teachings of the stories if your reference to them is exaggerated and incorrect?

[@NorthernGate777]

Circumcision has always been of the heart. The law is but a type and shadow of the reality found in Christ. Circumcision cannot be taught, it must be known

[@ihatetheparty6340]

Spong is also right that blame for the crucifixion event was transferred from the Romans to the Jews. (St. Paul, big lover of the Roman himself, was responsible for most of this-- read 1st Thessalonians 2:14-16, 2nd Corinthians 3:13-15). Paul was NOT a very nice man, and MILLIONS of Jews later died because of his venom.

[@kellyew144]

Leonardo's Truth You lost me at cretins. Everything after was blahblahblahblah! Wisdom from God is pure, peaceable, full of good fruit, easy to be entreated...James.

[@georgemay8170]

The Apostle John was not a "Darwinist."

[@sre331l]

What do you call, when you design a theory, then only look for evidence that supports it? He does that a lot. He should try playing devil’s advocate, instead of being it.

[@Charles.Wright]

Motivated reasoning? I don't know, but this is a cesspool of delusion and demonic doctrines.

[@emmawatson9180]

What do you call it when someone knows the guilty verdict and theory is known ahead of time, and uses white hot torture instruments that are ok because they don't draw blood? Any evidence of witches or heretics aside, that's Satan right there as an executioner. The churches own the world.

[@jayd4ever]

why isnt this man excommunicated yet he is heretic not representing christianity

[@sre331l]

Hyperbole..... patronising preacher doesn’t get it, then assumes you have to walk his path to be enlightened.... well this guy is described brilliantly by Plato with his allegory of the cave dweller going back in the cave to teach those who have never been outside. Any Christian who has lived in the world, understands better than your man, he assumes You have to be a Jew to get it! This chap threw out all the things he could have used to defend against those misusing the bible, he does as they, and part quotes the bible. Our understanding isn’t the problem, any more than his flawed logic. The problem here, is people listen to him, and he leads them into ignorance.

[@sketchbook1]

Higher Critical method from the 1800s... how sad. It's just not held in high esteem in scholarly communities, much less in evangelical ones!

[@ihatetheparty6340]

Jesus was a bit gullible, for he swallowed the "Jonah story", hook, line and sinker! He said he would give NO SIGN, except for the SIGN OF JONAH. Jesus took it LITERALLY, for he said :as Jonah was 3 days in the BELLY OF THE WHALE, so the he would be 3 DAYS IN THE BELLY OF THE EARTH (Matthew 12:40). Ask yourself, did Jonah (in the story) DIE inside the whale? Then neither was Jesus DEAD in the "belly of the earth" (the tomb). OR? Are you so dull that you can't understand what Jesus said? Read on:

[@seldomseen1]

Actually, the miracle of Jonah was that he did not die. Three times you expect him to die yet he lived. Jonah disobeys God. Jonah ch.1 v.3 *_But Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish._* Jonah is thrown overboard into a raging storm. Jonah ch. 1 v.15 *_Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm._* Jonah is swallowed and then three days later, regurgitated by a fish. Jonah ch.1 v.17 *_Now the Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights._* Jonah ch.2 v.10 *_And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land._* So as we can see, Jesus was talking about walking out of the whole thing alive, when everyone thought he should be dead... Or maybe not! LOL It's all allegorical anyways.

[@billyrayvalentine8471]

Whales don't eat people dipshit.

[@lookatmepleasesir]

Jonah goes to the underworld /sheol in that story

[@Eyesayah]

So apparently Spong took his early instruction in the faith as unwelcome support for slavery, and other attitudes such as homophobia or patriarchy. As he rose to occupy the office of Bishop within the Episcopal Church he took views closely held by the academy public to acclaim.. However, it is not this very human Jesus that he calls on in Sunday services or at funerals. This uncomfortable double posture might have its compensations. Can't help thinking he might be hoping for a messiah to come and reconcile them..

[@johnstewart7025]

I read that Tolstoy said Jesus was his role model, but he did not regard Jesus as divine. He said his God was love, in some undefined way, and this his god did not create the world. He didn't say, as far as I know, whether the God of the Old Testament exists or not.

[@emmawatson9180]

Do you agree with the Bible that gays should 'suffer death'', beat your sex slaves, and stone rape victims? How can that ever be holy? That's the devil, wanting to kill and hurt and destroy. However of some reason the Bible doesn't agree or love or mercy. Some deserve death and hate. Some not. Hmmmmm

[@13gladius28]

I like th title o this vid n I think I'd enjoy hearing it but w/millions o vids on YT n so little time I'd prefer this to b like 14 min.'s NOT an hr n 14min.

[@arrowhead753]

And then John Song came along and got it all right! John, why didn't you resign from ther ECUSA? And please don't try to claim the name Christian.

[@ihatetheparty6340]

Bishop Spong has the right idea, except that he still believes that a dead body can LITERALLY come back to life.

[@marcanderson4861]

If you believe that, you don't know much about John Shelby Spong's teachings and understanding of the resurrection.

[@markpkessinger]

No, he doesn't. iN 1998, Spong published in the newsletter for the diocese of Newark his "Twelve Points for Reform." Point No. 7 reads as follows: "Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history."

[@shemabawah1865]

Intentionally wrong. May you find your faith. When we take the spiritual aspect out of the Bible, we are taking God out of the Holy Book. Yes some parts of the Bible are literal, but many parts aren’t. God Reveals Who He is From Genesis to Revelation. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That was literal.

[@johnwhelan9663]

Spong portrays John, and Jesus as portrayed by John, as complete asshats who go around saying non-literal things and then ridiculing innocent people who take them literally. But that is not what happens at all. Jesus carefully explains his non-literal meaning, without a hint of ridicule, to anyone who misunderstand him. Those who misunderstand him are portrayed as good people seeking understanding. John portrays Jesus as a good communicator and patient teacher. Any misunderstanding is part of something analogous to a Socratic dialogue. Spong is engaged in some weird form of projection here. But it would be entirely unhistorical to assume that the author of a 2000 year old document shares Spong's interest in mocking fundamentalists. I also disagree with Spong's overall conclusion. Whether you regard it as the truth, or a pack of lies, John's gospel is largely-literal document, with some non-literal elements, many of which are carefully explained by Jesus.

[@kirsteenniven5111]

I agree with you John. I am not a fan of Spong's presentation above.

[@danielholiphant]

Is the Second Coming of Jesus then to be understood as a metaphor also? Isaiah 34:4King James Version (KJV) 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Matthew 24:27King James Version (KJV) 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 1 Thessalonians 5:3King James Version (KJV) 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. This man is playing with fire.

[@billyrayvalentine8471]

He's already here dipshit. He's in your heart. Keep believing your masters and stay a slave.

[@danielholiphant]

Isaiah 29:13-16 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 13 And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote; 14 therefore, behold, I will again do marvelous things with this people, wonderful and marvelous; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.” 15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel, whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?” 16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”? Isaiah 3:18-26 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 18 In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents; 19 the pendants, the bracelets, and the scarfs; 20 the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the perfume boxes, and the amulets; 21 the signet rings and nose rings; 22 the festal robes, the mantles, the cloaks, and the handbags; 23 the garments of gauze, the linen garments, the turbans, and the veils. 24 Instead of perfume there will be rottenness; and instead of a girdle, a rope; and instead of well-set hair, baldness; and instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth; instead of beauty, shame.[a] 25 Your men shall fall by the sword and your mighty men in battle. 26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; ravaged, she shall sit upon the ground. Matthew 24:9-14Revised Standard Version (RSV) 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away,[a] and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. Matthew 12:36-37 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

[@katrinabergmanmccolloch5948]

Daniel Oliphant, Have you ever thought of the second coming as something that takes place within you spiritually speaking? Think of the possibility that you yourself could achieve the mind of christ. Christ consciousness is an intriguing notion that may answer your quest in a way that best meets your needs and your need for understanding.

[@danielholiphant]

Matthew 24:4-14 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 4 And Jesus answered them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: 8 all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs.9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away,[a] and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

[@katrinabergmanmccolloch5948]

Daniel Oliphant I appreciate your interpretation is a literal one and that's fine, but I see the gospel stories as having layered meanings with multiple meanings that can be interpreted in many ways. If you don't mind, try looking up Bill Donahue.

[@lookatmepleasesir]

back then there was no one "judaism"

[@evitcAoidaR]

I looked for the joke mod not this

[@moleofane1]

You cannot get into the mind of the writer.

[@bobfree1226]

SPONG completey denies clear scripture. the whole christian worldview is based upon who jesus was and what he accomplished. secular scholars and hostile ones to christianity spoke about his great feats and the amazing transformation of his followers. luke who also wrote acts names towns, rivers, cities kings with complete accuracy an rwith paul in his wanderings spreading gods word and kept accurate records.,Sir Willaim Ramsay a great archeologist spent 20 years and verified Lukes account an said he was an historian of the highest order. ramsay became a christian after he was a non-believer from the proponderance of evidence. spong rejects many of this and is flat out wrong.

[@johnstewart7025]

I don't think the entire Christian worldview -- turn the other cheek, for instance -- is based on the resurrection of Jesus. I agree that one isn't really a Christian, as is usually meant, if one doesn't believe in the resurrection.

[@moleofane1]

This mam does not know the "origin of the Bible writing"...how it came about for the Bible to be written.

[@moleofane1]

I dont care what people thought about the book of john as history or biography...this is misleading. It is the Word of God.

[@koolbeanz7902]

Definition of a false teacher.

[@menamarina8368]

I can't believe he has so many people fooled.

[@Moe-xg6bu]

I see why he said many false prophets . Calls you many because theres a lot of you normal not even close lie beleive your own lies trust in liars pretenders od known ti the ALL when unknown to even self false prophets if keep it uo best know it

[@Moe-xg6bu]

Best be done or done is the end of the age who the hell you pretendind to be