Gen 2 Suicune might be unviable

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

Suicune used to be a common, top-tier OU staple, but nowadays is almost never seen, despite stall's continued popularity

[@ShinyTillDawn]

it just needs a Special Attack boosting move

[@Paytonio]

@@ShinyTillDawn does it not have calm mind in GSC?

[@breloommaster12]

​@@Paytonio Calm Mind doesn't exist in GSC

[@Paytonio]

@@breloommaster12 ah, thanks

[@glitchedoom]

Unfortunate for Suicune, but man do I love the fact there are still meta shifts in tiers that are old enough to buy alcohol.

[@darmanistan]

usa commenter confirmed

[@jkid1134]

Partly thanks to the alcohol

[@aden2276]

4:00 I'm going insane, I thought to myself "It's GSC, this replay is gonna last the entire vid lol" but then it did.

[@inazuma-fulgur]

I'm at turn 116 and I suspect this game is longer than the longest game which I've ever played Which was 140/50 turns or so, newer gens really have shorter battles. Because yeah this is stall so it's not representative of everything but that game had like 70 turns of evasion strats stalling me out of pp Makes me think, how much did pp counts get lower over the years? Often that's a more limited resource than hp or anything Thinking about 32 pp revover for example.

[@inazuma-fulgur]

355 turns is nuts

[@christopherballero866]

Unfortunately in Gen 2: Zapdos, Raikou, and Snorlax are so absurdly prevalent that water types have a really difficult time. Most strong GSC teams have 2 often all 3

[@whydoiexist2180]

just a testament to how goated cloyster is

[@et34t34fdf]

If thats the case, may i offer a somewhat controversial solution? Celebi into OU. Would annoy the shit out of Raikou and Zapdos, and not too bad against lax either. Yes, Celebi is difficult to kill and slows the game down, but just a thought.

[@christopherballero866]

@@et34t34fdf not a bad idea but Celebi is banned plus: Raikou has crunch, Zapdos has drill peck, and Snorlax often ran shadow ball

[@dbf_exe]

​@@christopherballero866 I'd love to know what GSC meta you're playing where any of these Pokémon ever run any of these moves

[@wizard5552]

@@et34t34fdf GSC doesnt have enough players to do stuff like this anymore

[@furutapark]

hear me out. psych up suicune to copy curselax defense boosts

[@BeeEmpress]

And HP fighting to crit and kill lax

[@theta-8]

let him cook

[@yeet8036]

Bro cooking

[@cherryb0ng]

Not happening

[@cherryb0ng]

Check the damage calculator

[@onionjack4533]

I experimented with Mirror Coat Suicune a while ago and the most important thing I learned is that, besides the times when it just works and it's great (quite often if you set it up well), just by having mirror coat and showing you're willing to spam it essentially stops non toxic Zapdos and Raikou from doing anything to you, and that alone changes the way the countering game works and opens up many possibilities with double switches etc. Plus, you'll almost always have the advantage of understanding this version of the meta where the electrics don't counter a water type much better than your opponent and so you can take advantage of this.

[@olivergro7105]

The video wasn't even long enough for half the battle. And that's a replay, imagine the time it took for the actual battle.

[@BobDFish]

This sounds like one of the many headaches I have had over the last 5-6 years trying to make some of my old favorite DPP Ubers Pokémon / sets work again. When I put them up against what I know now and the numbers behind every game, a few of them finally reveal themselves as unviable. This is always a heartbreaker. I still refuse to give up on a couple of them despite their flaws but I have accepted that what I am doing is likely welcoming more headaches and nothing more. It’s a shame about Suicune, but everything you say here makes sense to me. It still brings that blend of bulk, Roar, and STAB Surf to the table which gives me a little hope that maybe there is a day the metagame shifts to favor it more or, as you say, its fringe movepool options that give it an edge over Vaporeon, or something more comparable like a Kingdra, might give it some viability. For now though, it’s pre-brass tower self, in Vaporeon, is still a top tier threat and Suicune is still plenty viable in many other wonderful formats thank goodness.

[@disasterarea9341]

hii wreckdra :3

[@geosevenner3726]

Suicune is not "unviable" but it's hugely outclassed by Starmie. The only real reason to use Suicune over it is if you know your opponent will bring Marowak which has 10% usage at best. Even if you expect Vaporeon, light screen Starmie is a much better check. Suicune's access to Roar is a niche I guess but practically trying to do both defensive duty while simultaneously annoying teams with Roar (which will require maintaining Spikes as well) is nigh impossible without reliable recovery Also zapdos is not undroppable, e.g. the team you are using in the video with star>cune is a perfectly fine team, probably the best gsc stall atm

[@backasswardstornado6961]

Well Suicine does have a 100% guaranteed chance to lose to my mono electric team so I think you're right

[@IschmarVI]

not if all of your pokes are using thunder. Because in that case, you might miss every single one of them :p

[@autobotstarscream765]

​@IschmarVI Mashups I'm guessing 4 of them carry Thunderbolt.

[@kieranjo1135]

Had to rewatch the whole video because halfway through I just got invested into the gameplay lol

[@lukaskaufhold2354]

Turn 400 this is why I can't get into gsc OU

[@IschmarVI]

400 is a ridiculous amount, even for gsc. But yeah, games can be long ... its not necessarily about stall and there *is* a lot of offense and even "hyper-offense". But as i like to say, with how bulky everything is, even offense can take a long time in gsc.

[@danielsmith5032]

I was not built for competitive GSC. Even offense mons are 3 hit or 4 hit KOing and hopefully they don’t rest on you

[@J0ulez5]

I agree with you on zapdos and disagree with you on Suicune. I have no reasoning, I simply crave your approval

[@tamonowo247]

Half this gameplay was Raikou roaring lmao

[@CoralReaper707]

Oof. You know, for being arguably the most popular Legendary Beast, Suicune sure is struggling.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Hence why you-know-what was Paradoxed into being.

[@yourdagan]

The most popular is probably Entei and always been that way.

[@awkwardcultism]

>Turn 300 >Only 1/12 Pokémon has fainted Jesus Christ

[@TheKicksBoy]

Love the gen 2 content

[@danielsmith5032]

I’m at turn 88 on the match playing behind your talking and all the Pokémon are still alive. I simply was not built for competitive GSC. It’s just takes too long 😅😅

[@Izuhra]

use boom offense

[@lafusion6695]

Video idea: If you had to release an Arceus form in any generation, which one would be the least broken in which gen?

[@Pancakewentsplat]

I rarely ever comment, but gotta respect the consistent uploads. Was wondering what you think about the impact of the physical/special split and a potential world where it didn't happen, going back to current gen ou from gen 3, it kinda feels like it had a huge impact in snuffing out a lot of creativity in movesets.

[@themace2055]

I don’t think Zapdos necessarily needs to be on every team but I think it should be on the majority of teams unless you have a specific core in mind involving Raikou. That being said if Zapdos should be on 70-80% of teams Suicune is in a box for sure

[@IschmarVI]

yeah, I also believe that one of the legendary electrics should be on every team and in the majority of cases, Zapdos is the better choice. However, Raikou being a thunder spammer that also handles Zapdos gives it a niche in some teams, mostly stall-oriented ones.

[@Izuhra]

@@IschmarVI They are both S tier , neither is better , just depends what your team needs

[@brianronan1905]

Why is Suicune not considered a fire lax check?

[@DemonDragon43]

It's time... CurseCune to check FireLax

[@MenwithHill]

A take so hot no calm mind boosted hydro-pump could quench it.

[@disasterarea9341]

an alternative to the rhydon idea is something like toxic rest steelix :) bit better against zapdos as a special check. but still dont really think it necessarily enables cune... just an interesting possibility for stall.

[@XLRATEable]

BKC going absolutely crazy with the uploads again, and I'm all for it

[@alexandercolefield9523]

I think the reason the double electric team with Suicune is viable is because the added element of the electric offense. Many times when making a stall team you get bogged down in trying to counter and account for everything, while in an actual game you can actually push past theoretical weak spots with a dash of offense to the soup to make sure those weak spots never actually materialize. I haven't played a ton of GSC OU, but I do recall using Executor as a semi-special check which doubled as a general glue being able to neutralize problems with Explosion, however, I doubt this could ever become really meta as the second people start using Eggy regularly, Zapdos can start using Drill Peck.

[@dontaskmeaboutmyday4839]

After using suicune, I find it to be just too weak. 90 base special attack just doesnt cut it with how tanky everything is. With no boosting move, it’s piddly surfs bounce off of mons like raikou and the king himself, snorlax and can be easily rested off. Also zapdos, raikou all threaten him with thunder. Basically suicune is just a roar machine.

[@duelme1234]

tbh I would love a video explaining why you like long games and the different skills tested in these games as opposed to fast ones.

[@screwtokaiba]

LET HIM COOK

[@themace2055]

I don’t think Zapdos necessarily needs to be on every team but I think it should be on the majority of teams unless you have a specific core in mind involving Raikou. That being said if Zapdos should be on 70-80% of teams Suicune is in a box for sure

[@zinnias114]

I gotta say I agree, it needs a lot to get going

[@benjihuynh2970]

3:55 why not go for HP water here? Raikou Hidden Power Water vs. Snorlax: 53-63 (10.1 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever

[@catandfishfc]

I physically recoiled at that Thunder miss

[@BatmannotBruceWayne1]

Gen 5 wasn’t mentioned and there wasn’t very much going off track. Clearly, this is not actually BKC

[@abarette_]

epic 355 turn game

[@doublem1975x]

This game shows why very few ppl want to play gsc. Way too stall oriented meta.

[@ostint912]

So what are some Pokémon from the lower tiers that you think might be viable in gen 2 OU?

[@reverie9358]

Not a GSC expert, but I’ve definitely seen zard, espeon and jolteon in tournament play

[@williamhuynh869]

Quagsire

[@35.tucongtan64]

Belly drum zard

[@ShinyTillDawn]

@@williamhuynh869 imagine the metagame pulling an RSE and making the electric types run HP Grass oh wait Quagsire sucks without water absorb

[@cherryb0ng]

No actually Quagsire can sweep entire teams in gsc of they don't have a skarmory in gsc. Currently it's probably more viable than suicune lol

[@scionicle]

It's funny seeing this drop right after I watch the history of bulky waters video

[@Rose-ez7yn]

Bkc uploads have been coo coo crazy as of late

[@petemchugh2010]

Preach, love this take and agree. But I should probably admit I love running Vaporeon and Suicune is actually the single best Vaporeon counter.

[@petemchugh2010]

But like Suicune is Venasaur level to me

[@Izuhra]

rawr cune , yep

[@shignificent]

What does Fire Lax mean? Snorlax with fire coverage?

[@IschmarVI]

Snorlax with Fire Blast. It sometimes uses that because it roasts Skarmory (and Steelix). 65 base special attack might not be that high, but its not much lower than Skarmory's special defense so it works just fine. Also, the ridiculous base power of fire blast kinda makes up for that as well. Snorlax Fire Blast vs. Skarmory: 166-196 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Snorlax Fire Blast vs. Steelix: 173-204 (49 - 57.7%) -- 57.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery The added damage against Steelix is also nice because Earthquake isn't actually all that strong against Steelix. Snorlax Earthquake vs. Steelix: 93-110 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Plus, Steelix itself usually runs curse which might weaken your earthquake even further. With Fire Blast, it doesn't matter, how many curses Steelix uses. Its gonna do the same damage regardless.

[@shignificent]

@@IschmarVI thank you for the thoughtful and informative reply, I appreciate you!

[@disasterarea9341]

I think it's really a matter of how stringently you want to be able to answer certain threats, and well, if you think zapdos is droppable or not. zap/cune probably doesn't really work although i think earthworm's team that you mentioned is interesting. explosion is also a tool you can consider to help you deal with certain threats (e.g. boom forry or cloy to help against drumlax? maybe letting you swap out skarm?) that can add some flexibility but is obviously a bit unreliable and more effective on offensive teams than on stallier teams.

[@Izuhra]

CAT GIRLS!

[@lanceknightmare]

My understanding of generation 2 only comes from decades ago playing against people with a Link Cable. Most of the matches back then were decided on who had the higher level Pokemon. I had a team of two Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Lugia, Tyranitar, Articuno. Suicune was my seventh slot I would sometimes swap into my team. This is when you could place Counter and Mirror Coat on a Mewtwo or go for as much type coverage as you could get. Mewtwo versus Mewtwo battles came down to who scored a critical hit first. Spamming Psychic was the most effective way to do this due to the stab. I remember Lantern being the most powerful thing against my team when facing other players in Link Cable duels. Raikou was the strongest Pokemon I encountered in the Battle Tower. I literally fought every Pokemon in the Pokedex and that Pokemon scored three knockouts on my team. Snorlax would get one maybe one and some change.

[@BananaReidy]

It's base spattack it lower in gen2, it doesn't you couldn't stall with it a toxic whirpool combo.

[@MazterP28]

Wasn’t there a suicune that used curse roar return rest or mirror coat mi

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

I've sadly never seen cursecune used at all, let alone in a tour setting where it matters, but I can't imagine it would do too well. offensive mirror coat of some kind though, maybe

[@tecul1]

maybe

[@naturalharmoniagropius4486]

Is it weird to run a female Pokemon on you team in Gen 2, due to the fact that their DVs won't gonna be maxed out?

[@siamondTV]

Is the name of the Suicune based on a Croatian book?

[@mehdidelteil3672]

Suicune fits only on stall teams, with the set surf, ice beam, rest, sleep talk. It provides a consistant counter to marowark since it Never is OHKO by +2 EQ and you have a 2/3 chance to attack, a solid check to a large portion of mixed attacker (nidoking, ttar) as well as machamp a little bit. Ice beam allows for freezes for long games, a viable strategy if you'r careful with pp. Compare to umbreon, it's not as passive and Can freeze. Compare to starmie, suicune don't do a thing with Hazard and isn't a counter to machamp but is overall way more bulky .

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

skarm + zapdos generally does just fine against marowak anyway, and zap dumpsters nidoking (especially with lax help) while also being better against machamp, so it often winds up competing with cune for coverage against these pokes while being better overall. it's not about competing with umbreon. cune's ability to stifle jynx is nice but nothing that such a stall team shouldn't have handled elsewhere.

[@Skyace13]

I know nothing about GSC. How does Moltres do? Like in place of the passive Dragonite? You mentioned it in passing in the last vid. It seems like spikes pressure is the main pressure here so anything ignoring that would be beneficial

[@kieranjo1135]

Moltres is a huge nuke with sunny day fire blasts, it just has terrible matchups against the waters and blissey and tar, plus the electrics shred it.

[@carbonatedblood645]

At least Suicune can still rest talk in gen 4 ou 😢

[@disasterarea9341]

could you use suicune as the firelax answer?

[@alexbrittonfilms]

It may work against resttalk firelax, but curse firelax demolishes suicune. Double edge after one boost is a guaranteed 3hko, so you either are forced to rest and can't roar anymore (roar doesn't work with sleep talk), or you drop roar and get outright beaten

[@alexbrittonfilms]

Loving the gen 2 content!

[@jayplay8869]

Every non legendary team honestly in let’s go needs aero if not mega aero. Any team that’s not able to beat it feels like a metaphor for last few gen 2 videos.

[@Rose-ez7yn]

Arent mew and melm auto additions on any good lgpe team

[@I_Am_Bowi]

Gen 2 is probably the most boring gen ever

[@ciarzyx]

I think it's cool to analyse and spectate but I would hate to learn and play it

[@yourdagan]

good thread

[@bakes1324]

This maybe a dumb question because I don’t play gsc, but what if houndoom was in your theoretical Rhydon slot. It could take a fire move from snorlax, hit a foretress if you needed it too(you were worried about one coming in on a sleeping rhydon) and also probably check gengar. I know it’s physical defense is very lacking and Would definitely hold it back but I’m just curious.

[@64UPAllGOD]

The problem with Houndoom is it's simply too frail to do anything. Fire Blast Snorlaxes always have some other move to use, and Houndoom will get rolled by any of them, while doing nothing to Lax in return. It kills Fortress, but Fortress would never stay or come in on it. Actually, it's most common (and this is really niche) use in GSC is as a tech against ghosts with Pursuit. Against Gengar however, this traps the Houndoom player in a very awkward 50/50 of Pursuit vs. Crunch, because if a Gengar doesn't switch it tanks the Pursuit handily, and Houndoom Crunch does nothing to almost everything else in the tier. Generally T-Tar just does this job better, while also being able to tank stuff.

[@austindmunday]

I agree