Black Caviar 14th win - Schweppes Schillaci Stakes

The Age Caulfield Guineas - 8th October 2011

[@griff01986]

I'm just happy to witness such an amazing horse in my lifetime, she will be a household name for years to come.

[@ThefightingCelt]

Handicappers are not biased. The reason Frankel is currently rated higher both in the official International Classifications and by Timeform ( who also give ratings for horses in USA, Australia and New Zealand ) is due to the fact that he has defeated higher rated opposition than Black Caviar has done. If they were biased then surely they would rate all European horses above all others, given MrCaspa's warped reasoning.

[@bgardiner2000]

@SvendBosanvovski value I'll be on the last start Colonel Reeves winner Avante. I like the Hurricane Skys & the Grant Williams / Bob Peters / William Pike combination are in fine form. SHe's paying pretty well too and gets a good gate, which will be important at Ascot.

[@CharlesOlney23]

@ThefightingCelt in a way yes. As So You Think was always going to contest the top Group 1's like the Prince Of Wales, Eclipse, Irish Champion and the Arc and it takes a very very good horse to win more than one of these in the same season. Upon seeing this I didn't think he would be up to it. The only horse in recent years that could go through a season winning all these Group 1s and the the Arc was Sea The Stars.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@Scodan23 The thing with Black Caviar is she as only raced over 5 and 6f. Frankel as raced over 7, 8f and won. And the way he won the 2000 Guineas a step back in trip to 6f doesn't look to be a problem whatsoever. Richard Hannon trainer of Canford Cliffs said that the Darley July Cup probably Europes top sprint race was tailor made for Frankel. Next season Frankel will be winning Group Ones at 10f and establishing himself as one of the all time greats. We'll be lucky to see Black Caviar..

[@bgardiner2000]

@ASupremeOwl i don't doubt that Frankel is a rare talent. He's definitely of of the best middle distance 3 year olds I've ever seen, and deserves be rated in the top tier. But 7 lbs ahead of Black Caviar? No way.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 No bias whatsoever. The Derby, as it is officially known, was the first of its kind ; named after the Earl of Derby. Run at Epsom, It is recognised as the pre-eminent mile and a half race for three year old colts (and fillies) in the World. All other "Derbys", including the Kentucky version, are so called because of that. It attracts the finest middle distance 3 year olds in Europe. As for Black Caviar; yes is the best sprinter in the world, so no argument there from me.

[@ThefightingCelt]

Incidentally Sven, many of the best Ascot Gold Cup winners ( remember that this event is two and a half miles ) were top class. Four times winner, Yeats, for example, was one time fav for Epsom Derby. Ardross ( who also finished a close 2nd in Arc ) would have kicked any of your MC winners of the last 35 years into touch - as would have Le Moss and Sagaro, in a true run 2 mile contest.

[@bgardiner2000]

@frconvey I'd like to hear which sprinters outside Australia would be better than Hay List or even Buffering. ANZ has produced the most highly rated sprinters in the world for 9 of the last 10 years. This is where the best sprinters in the world are. With Deacon Blues out of the carnival they might have to bring The Tatling back out of retirement to provide a bit of competition for the ANZ & the US sprinters.

[@tjjlm444]

she is an amazing horse i love watching all of her races because they all just look like a morning workout.i hope next year her connections send her here to america for the breeders sprint so people can really see what type of champion she really is.my favorite horse of all time was sunline and i would have loved to see those 2 go at it over 7f

[@happieade]

@bgardiner2000 I don't know so much about Phar Lap, but Black Caviar may be the best since the King, but needs to be raced over more ground to prove it. She looks like she could handle it though, and I would love to see her in a race like the Cox Plate.

[@bgardiner2000]

@SvendBosanvovski Hi Mate.... did you see Catapulted win up the straight in Flemington on Monday? If he holds that form there will be yet another contender for the runner up guernsey in the Autumn in the big sprints ;)

[@bgardiner2000]

@frconvey Despite the media coverage of a 2m handicap, the Cox Plate is THE premiere race of ANZ. A flick through the winners is like a who's who of ANZ racing. So You Think, Makybe Diva, Northerly, Saintly... You make it sound like taking her to Dubai is like catching the bus from Picadilly to Covent Garden. There will be plenty of opportunity to see some of the BC competition racing in Dubai. The target is Royal Ascot. Make sure you have your tickets booked. With BC & Frankel racing...

[@bgardiner2000]

@bigpronger I don't get your point. So You Think was not found out by the distance... he was found out by a farcical first mile and getting to the front a bit too early with a solid weight on a dead track. Or maybe it's true that the rest of the field that finished in arrears were also found out by the distance? It's a dead stick argument because a. she's never really been pressured & b. she's never raced beyond 1350m.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@troganwarrior Just like Frankel is in a whole different world to anything else in the world. I'd be confident backing Frankel over 6, 7 and 8 furlongs against Black Caviar. The highest rated horse she as ever beaten is ranked 18th in the world on official figures. Frankel raced the 2000 Guineas like a sprinter and didnt give up. Anything over 7 furlongs and Frankel wins at a canter...

[@Scodan23]

@ASupremeOwl and have you ever stopped to think and consider that maybe you're riding the European hype machine around Frankel? or have you got your blinkers on? im not saying frankel is a hype machine, because even though ratings are inconsistent, it must be good to have a rating of 135. but heres the real question, what will black caviar do when Luke Nolen actually touches it with the whip?

[@happieade]

Black Caviar is certainly a champion sprinter. To be compared to the likes of Phar Lap and Kingston Town she needs to step up in distance and repeat the success, but she certainly runs on like a horse that could handle more distance.

[@CharlesOlney23]

@SvendBosanvovski okay accept your points, but i was only suggesting a horse that COULD get close. Deacon Blues is talented and we may not have seen the best yet. If he wins on saturday then he could be up to it. I agree with you about that Fanshawe horse but Dream Ahead is a fantastic horse. He was joint champion 2 year old last year with the fabulous frankel and has won 3 group 1's from 4 starts with the only defeat coming in a false race in France. I think Dream Ahead was better than you say.

[@leedelaney70]

@MrConnolly25 Sectionals are not the be all & end all but discount them at your peril. You tell any form analyst in the world sectionals mean fuck all & I will guarantee they laugh at you. Yes we all know tracks are different, the ground can be different on any given day etc etc etc Allowances can be made for these variables. Why do Europeans find it so hard to grasp ? We know times run @ Moonee Valley racecourse are slower than times run @ Flemington. Sectional times horses run, when.....(cont)

[@leedelaney70]

He didn't have the form to beat Americain but he did. He also beat last year's Caulfield Cup winner Southern Speed. That tells me he has improved greatly under P Moody's care, remembering when trained by Luca Cumani he could only manage 1 placing from his 5 Australian runs. He's now won 2 out of 3 with a placing under Moody. Americain WON over 12f in the spring and ran a close 3rd over 10f last time out so I would say he's capable of winning from 10f - 16f on exposed form

[@MrConnolly25]

@leedelaney70 Sectionals mean fuck all this is a guaranteed fact! Danedream won the Arc,in fac it smashed the track record but lost on its very next start! didn't even get placed.Gio Ponti had faster times than Cape Blanco mainly because Gio ran in the US where they run the clock yet Cape Blanco brushed him aside! i could state plenty of horses who were slower than others yet beat them but it's pointless just like the times are.5/6f BC for sure 7+ Frankel has the form so he's for sure.

[@MrConnolly25]

@leedelaney70 Oh man your just too simple! Americain lost to Manighar over 10f? how many furlongs is the Melbourne Cup lol 16f so you can discard his loss to Manighar as it was an inadequate trip.If your going the anal route with Manighar improving leaps & bounds because of Moody you have problems as even with new form in Aus he still didn't have the form to beat Americain did he lol.

[@leedelaney70]

@frconvey The WS Cox Plate is unquestionably Australia's best race. The Melbourne Cup is Australia's most famous and iconic race. The overall quality of the Melbourne Cup has improved markedly in the last 25 years though. It is now a 'good horses' race & is regarded unofficially as the world championship event for stayers. If we were American we would call it the world championship lol lol. The WS Cox Plate is mile 1/4 at WFA for over $3 million. The honour roll is a who's who of Aust champions.

[@leedelaney70]

@MrConnolly25 Laugh all you like but the jokes on you. Americain is curently the WORLDS HIGHEST RATED stayer. FACT ! Manighar, when trained by Luca Cumani, had 5 starts in Australia for 1 placing. FACT ! Transferred to Black Caviar's trainer Peter Moody he's had 3 starts for an 8f WIN first up from a spell, a Grp 2 9f placing and a Grp 1 10f WIN, beating last years Caulfield Cup winner and the Melbourne Cup winner and WORLDS HIGHEST RATED stayer. Do you think Moody has improved the horse ??

[@leedelaney70]

@leedelaney70 ....she ran sectionals that Frankel has never ran in his life. That MAY be different at 8f but Black Caviar would make mince meat of Frankel between 5f - 7f. Her outstanding times at different tracks and distances without being shown the whip and being eased down the last 1/2 f proves how fast she is. If you run a race faster than your opposition you win. Her times are faster than Frankels by plenty. At 8f you have to favour Frankel as he's done it she hasn't. But she COULD !!

[@MrConnolly25]

@leedelaney70 Don't jump into yo a discussion without reading 1st.To start my whole point is BC has absolutely no worthwhile form to suggest she could beat Frankel over 7f!! whilst he has extremely strong form against other G1 winning 7f horses ok! you have used BC beating southern speed lol who was beaten in a 10f G1 10 days earlier lol Americain who was beaten by Maninghar who struggled to win in the UK but wins a G1 in Aus!

[@frconvey]

@bgardiner2000 now come on which race gets the more publicty and media atention the cup or the plate ! australians talk about her as if the second coming i will admit black cavair is a great sprinter but thats what she is a sprinter like theres not a hope of her even runnin against frankel never mind beatin him at a mile. and if she so invincible y wont moody take her to dubai where she would face nothing better than she faces every week in australia ! best sprinter yes ! horse no

[@MrConnolly25]

@bgardiner2000 Frankel is hardly my horse,i wasn't a believer until he dismantled Canford Cliffs.I use timeform because i back horses in the UK its a fairly simple reason.You keep talking about Aussie sprinters which i have already agreed are better than ours i don't require a form book to tell me that.If BC runs at Ascot on all known ratings she ought to win by over 5 lengths.I dislike the suggestion she'd beat Frankel over 7f,its stupidly bias as she has never even run the trip

[@ASupremeOwl]

He may have been Champion Sprinter if he had gone that route last year the way he attacked the Guineas demonstrated that and he absolutely annihilated the Champion Sprinter in Europe Dream Ahead for a turn of foot. Im not sure he'd have beat Black Caviar over 6 furlongs but Im not sure she could give him much of a race over 7 furlongs or 8 furlongs espcially on the undulating tracks in Britain. The surfaces she races on back in Aus are like carpets compared to over here...

[@ASupremeOwl]

If Black Caviar could settle she may have a chance against Frankel over a mile but to Me she looks an out and out sprinter, Shes never stepped above 6f's and weather she can harness that power and pace is yet to be seen. Theres no doubt in My mind if she turned the gas on against Frankel that early on he would swamp her in the last 2 furlongs hes an impressive finisher over 8 furlongs like Black Caviar is at 6 furlongs. I can't ever see them meeting because Frankel is an out and out miler...

[@MrConnolly25]

@bgardiner2000 And really over a soft 7f? your comments are getting desperate,why not get in touch with the WTR ? it was you who brought WTR into the discussion only now they rate Dream Ahead better over 7f than Hay list you don't like it.You have the worlds best sprinters ie 5&6f horses anyything above forget about it.So i and your WTR seem to agree you are the 1 who fails to understand what your looking at ROFL.You by yourself ridiculed your own arguement thats all get over it.

[@MrConnolly25]

@bgardiner2000 See you used WTR i don't take any notice of them.Deam Ahead Would beat Hay list over 7 no doubts,i doubt he would have trounced Hay List but he'd win.I used Dream Ahead as a rock solid horse to calculate the outcome of Frankel vs Black Caviar over 7f as he had worldwide G1 form over the trip and had been beaten easily by Frankel anyway.The WTR rating only strengthens that view,i think you are just unwilling to accept the obvious & are too biased to accept the clear

[@MrConnolly25]

@bgardiner2000 On the Frankel & Black Caviar ratings for some reason WTR seem to be underplaying what both horses have achieved,143 Frankel is much more realistic basically they have rated him the same as Sea the Stars,when in reality the he won a soft Guineas his Arc & Derby victory were very good but in between he scared most of the opposition away.Timeform has also been going since 1948, i trust there ratings above any other.I suppose a its horses for courses thing

[@MrConnolly25]

@bgardiner2000 Dream Ahead though was never campaigned as a sprinter,the idea with Dream Ahead was the Mile.Dream Ahead beat Goldikova over 7f then.The drop in trip was because he had flopped over 1m,then they dropped him probably to face weaker opposition.I keep saying your sprinters are clearly better but 7f form gives BC no chance against Frankel.You can't say im say im being subjective when you compare a part time sprinter to a natural sprinter,7f is not a sprint

[@MrConnolly25]

@MrStripYourGirl Im not wanting a long drawn out arguement but your statement that BC beats Frankel upto 1m has no strength.Frankel won the Dewhurst over 7f he beat Dream ahead in that who went on to beat Goldikova in the G1 Prix de la Forêt over 7f he also beat fellow classic winner Roderic O'Connor also Saamid who won the G2 champagne stakes over 7f.Black Caviar over 5f & 6f has strength over 7f Frankel has extremely strong form much stronger than BC not stopping after 6f

[@MrConnolly25]

@MrStripYourGirl Frankel will be racing at 1m2f next year,his status as the worlds best miler is undoubted,obviously the 10f thing is about breeding.I don't think BC could beat him at 7f he has proven stamina,everybody says 5f 6f she wins so for arguements sake ill agree but its very bias to suggest she would beat him at 7f where a proper pace would be a cert and his classic form comes into play he has also won over 7f

[@MrConnolly25]

@MrStripYourGirl Instead why not read the form book and say Black Caviar wins a 5f possibly 6f no chance at 7f+.Or why don't you just tell us what it says instead of telling us to check that site? for more simple ways to find out who wins check the ratings,Black Caviar is a sprinter who hasn't achieved a rating over a mile.Frankel has won over 7f and a mile never a sprint.Frankel is also the highest rated horse in the world with a rating of 143 making him the 3rd best horse ever

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 Coolmore get there own way. Im probably been harsh on the Aussies. Im of my own opinion that Frankel is the best in the world at the moment, As the Aussies feel Black Caviar is. Like I've said We can argue till the cows come home. Lets just enjoy two of the finest throughbreds to ever grace the track and if they are to meet in the future. Lets do it, It'd be great for racing... Moody doesn't seem confident it will though!

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 I've never really been much of a fan of the big sprint races, Probably because we tend to have nothing around to beat the Aussies over 6 furlongs. The best I've seen Europe produce is Dayjur, It still hurts Me today to see him lose at the Breeders Cup. Cantering to a win and then jumping a shadow. We have always produced the top milers and middle distance runners, As the Aussies are the king of sprinters. Throughbred bloodlines may change in the future if...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@BrickTamlind1 around to beat her but she'll be proving herself in probably the toughest racing continent in the world (Europe) On a variety of tracks and surfaces. Newmarket, Ascot, Longchamp. Im still doubtful she will be racing here next year anyway. As for Henry Cecil he wouldn't trape all the way down to Australia in Feb to race a sprinter over 7 furlongs, It would take too much out of a horse who as bigger plans in place as a 4 year old. I'd be very confident Frankel would beat...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@BrickTamlind1 at 6 furlongs, The pace is very much clear take a look at his Guineas win. He was putting in 11 second furlongs for the first 5 furlongs and probably the toughest mile straight in the world at Newmarket (The Rowley Mile) There is noway Black Caviar's sectionals would be the same on a stiff track like that. If Black Caviar comes to Europe next year and its a big 'if' its not the calibre of opposition she will be proving herself against because there will probably be nothing...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 grasp if she settled but anything over 6 furlongs and I think alot will agree that they would be firmly in Frankel's corner. Anyway this is irrelevent. Black Caviar will not be racing over 6 furlongs in Europe next year (That's if she actually comes, Shes had the last 2 years to make an appearance at Royal Ascot and the Breeders Cup) Frankel will probably mix it up next year Lockinge, Prince of Wales, Sussex, Juddmonte International, Breeders Cup Classic/Mile...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 espcially the way he ran his 2000 Guineas, Richard Hannon the former trainer of Canford Cliffs was astounded that connections weren't aiming Frankel at the July Cup route. He said it was 'Tailor-made' Frankel as won races at 7 furlongs and 8 furlongs. Black Caviar as never even stepped over 6 furlongs. Shes never raced over a mile so how could you be sure she would get the trip? She looks like she is all speed to Me. I do however think 7 furlongs could be well within her...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 I've scored every Sam Walker article since the start of the year, He hasn't onced said Black Caviar is a better horse than Frankel so please tell Me where you are getting all this Sam Walker rubbish from? Us Europeans and you Aussies will argue until the cows come home about who the best is of the them two. Comparing a Sprinter with a Miler is pointless. The arguement I like to make is Frankel could probably step back to 6f's easily and give a very good account of himself...

[@ThefightingCelt]

I am far from dEluded, trust me. As Peter moody himself has said in a recent interview: Black Caviar has been beating "the same horses for the last two and a half years" , and admitted that Hay List and Cystal Lily were the only serious opponents she has defeated. He even conceded that Hay List gave him ( Moody ) most concern but she obviously outstayed that horse. It all depends on which race at Ascot she will be entered for. Forget about facing Frankel as he will be running in the 10f POW.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski Moody was expecting the Frankel question ( in a cringing sort of way ) from the English lovely. His body language spoke volumes. He has a big fish (BC) in a small pond. Frankel is a much bigger fish in a much bigger pond, and little chubby Pete knows it. Moddy's best option, if he wishes to maintain Black caviar's winning sequence is to stay in OZ beating the same old tired, three legged nags. If he sticks to 5f race at Royal Ascot, he has a chance. At 6 and over, big IF... !

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski If you actually watch that video, it is quite evident that Moody is in awe of Frankel and realises that taking him on would be an entirely different proposition to BC defeating the same old horses over and over again in Australia. He said UK's 6f is akin to an Australian 7f - hence why he intends trying her over 7f in OZ before she travels to Ascot.. Even he realises that our courses present a stiffer test. She won't race against Frankel anyway. If they did meet Frankel wins !

[@711ATOM]

Now back to the race; another good run by BC, I don't think Luke Nolan ever drops his hands, but I'm glad they're having her go on to 1400m. They have to increase the distance in order to attract more competition. Better start than BC usually has, they must be working on that; she again shows she's better turning left than right, no trouble at all with the change of lead. BC has stopped growing and that seems to have helped with the injury problems (I hope they can get up to a mile).

[@711ATOM]

@bgardiner2000 There are about 35 G1 handicap races in the US; I took a quick look at the Blood Horse Magazine list of the Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century and out of the top 30 there are only two that I believe did not run in a handicap race, Secretariat (for well documented reasons) and perhaps Count Fleet. When it comes to handicap racing it is the UK that is out of step.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski It is the nature of the race, allied to the weights, conditions etc. The race is not a true stamina sapping test. Far from it. The course is very flat ( like Chester ) and it lends itself to the speedier type with a turn of foot. When it turned into a slog one year, Ireland's Vintage Crop absolutely hosed up - mainly because the speed horses of Oz didn't possess enough real stamina to see the race out. That's my point.

[@ThefightingCelt]

Might & Power was a horse I like very much - and he was in fact a middle distance performer - which illustrates my point exactly. Milers are NOT middle distance horses - they are MILERS, who are generally not genetically engineered for stamina sapping tests. The MC is run in snatches. They slow the pace down the back straight. I've heard many Oz jockeys and UK jockeys say as much and - as in France - the emphasis is on a sprint finish.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski Sven, where did I say those European horses who competed in the MC were classic horses? The Melbourne Cup in the main attracts horses whose best distances are below 2 miles. The mile specialists who do compete are an exception. The Flemington 2 miles flat course is in fact regarded as an easier 2 miles in comparison to the 2 mile events in the UK and Ireland. By that I mean the likes of Ascot, Newmarket and The Curragh (Ire) provide a much sterner stamina test than Flemington.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski Bazaar? Heavens above. I'm definitely sending you, Svenny lad. I never let an insult get in the way of a good constructive argument. Your point is exactly what I said. Please pay attention old boy and stop pandering to an audience which isn't there. Look, it's a simple equation really - win better class group races against good opposition and your horse gets the rating it duly deserves.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@SvendBosanvovski I know as much as I want to know about Australian racing. The Melbourne Cup is a handicap and quite obviously, given the prize money on offer it is bound to attract more runners than The Ascot Gold Cup, which is a proper Group 1 ( non handicap ) race run over two and a half miles. I would have loved to have seen a very good MC winner, Makybe Diva, come over to Royal Ascot and take on Yeats at level weights.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@sp3193 Have you seen the Newmarket Rowley Mile? Its probably the most gruelling mile in the world hence why the 2000 Guineas is widely regarded as the finest mile classic in the world. Its a straight with dips and a strong incline finish. Frankel was running into a strong headwind and for the first 5 furlongs he clocked 58.50 seconds it was a showing of speed and power. I have no doubt that if Frankel hadn't gone on to be a top miler he would have been Champion Sprinter in Europe...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 As for Black Caviar she is clearly a very good horse, I've never doubted that. But while Frankel will be proving himself as one of the best of all time (If he isn't already) at 4 years of age, Cleaning up the European Group Ones before a crack at the Breeders Cup. What will Black Caviar be doing in her '6th' year of racing? Shes had many chances to step across the shores to Europe and America but never as, Why would next year be different? I hope she does because racing...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 finally Canford Cliffs who was rated the top miler in the world before the Sussex, Before losing 5 lengths to the freak that is Frankel. Look at the official throughbred ratings and these horses I name a good chunk of them will make the top 10 racehorses in the world up, Can the same be said about Black Caviar? The highest rated horse shes beaten on the list comes in at number 18 (Haylist) I think Frankels rating as the world's best is justified....

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 Frankel had seen off the entire 3 year old generation of filly milers in Europe, Aswell as the other top 3 year old colt milers in the Jacque Marois where even Goldikova fell to her. She was beat 7 1/2 lengths with Frankel only recieving one crack of the whip. Hes beaten Excelebration who would have been the top miler in Europe had Frankel not been around he won the Prix De Moulin before Ascot, Frankel even saw off the older generation of milers Poets Voice, Dick Turpin and...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 But hes not been the horse that was promised IMO, And by the way if So You Think wins the classic on Saturday which I really hope he does he'll be the second horse to win the Classic from the UK after John Gosden's Raven Pass in 2008. How many group ones as Frankel won against open class horses? Are you seriously asking Me that? He's raced his classic generation since his only 3 years of age Hes beaten along the way...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 So You Think as dissapointed terribly for racing fans over in Europe, He's won a mediocre Tattersalls Cup and an average Irish Champions Stakes where Snow Fairy was the only horse to give him a race she then reversed that form in the Prix De'Le Are De Triomphe. Hes finished second in two of his 3 group ones in England only beating Workforce by half a length is obviously not the same horse at 4 than he was at 3, His form all year as proved that. SYT's form as been consistent...

[@ThefightingCelt]

@bgardiner2000 You are utterly clueless. I know it's handicap but it it is still the showcase race in Australia - and also the one OZ race known throughout the world. I did travel in 1998 to see the race. Much like the Grand National ( handicap steeplechase ) is the race which captures the public attention in the UK. You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word showcase in this context and are showing your ignorance. I know all about the Cox Plate and all the other major races in Oz.

[@ASupremeOwl]

Black Caviar racing in a field of 4 against the same horses with even horses having to be moved away from her to avoid interference. Yawn Yawn Yawn. I can't wait for her to have a real test, Shes clearly racing inferior animals week in week out. Australia's answer to Zenyatta. How Black Caviar is even mentioned in the same breath as Frankel is embarrasing. The ratings say it all... Frankel 135 Black Caviar 128

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 Jimmy Choux is not good enough to trouble Europe's top milers. The International Classifictaions is decided by an International panel of racing experts - based solely on the form of each horse, taking into account the quality of oppostion they have beaten and the quality of race they have won. There is no bias involved. Black Caviar currently sits at number 2 in the World rankings.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 The Hong Kong Mile isn't recognised as a top notch event in Europe, unlike The Breeder's Cup Turf Mile in the USA , where you will find most of Europe's best milers heading - Frankel apart, who has been put away until next season. You have heard of Goldikova ? Winner of the BC mile in 3 consecutive seasons. Now, she would destroy any Australian miler put in front of her. Well, she lost to Canford Cliffs at Royal Ascot. CC was then pulverised 5 lengths by Frankel. Work it out, Caspa !

[@CharlesOlney23]

@MrCaspa21 i dunn'o the way he won the qe2 suggested that an extra 2 furlongs would suit if nothing else. In every race this season Frankel has taken ages to pull up suggesting that he again should get further. His win at Royal Ascot also suggested that by the way he sustained full throttle for 4 furlongs and still won. I hear Black Caviar will step up to 7f though I dont hold judgment on her staying abilities.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 The Australian Sprint races are usually won by an outstanding sprinter. My argument is that Sprint races in Europe carry much more prestige than Australia's races do. The King's Stand Stakes Ascot ( England 5f ), The July Cup ( Newmarket, England 6f ) and The Prix de L'Abbye ( Paris, France 5f ) are considered some of the top sprint events in horse racing. Australian sprinters have won The July Cup and The King Stand's Stakes. The Golden Slipper is a top race, but not as prestigious.

[@711ATOM]

Pt.2 - but the winning time in the QEII was the 5th fastest in the last 8 runnings, the 3rd fastest in the last 4. Based on this Frankel's ratings are going up while Black Caviar's are going down. Does this make any sense? I don't want to be in the position of attacking Frankel because I do not dislike the horse, but these ratings are again demonstrating their biases and inherently flawed methodology.

[@711ATOM]

Pt.1 - Wow, I was looking to see a race and I found a fight. I hope the Australian fans are realizing that these ratings by these agencies (Timeform - err) are just screwy. They rate Frankel among the greats of all time, this isn't unusual as they seem to be able to find a European 3 yr. old super horse every year. Frankel is one of a long line of greatest ever. I think Frankel is a fine horse, perhaps it will be proven a great horse - conti.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 Go to the International Classificatons ( horseracing ) site. There you will find the top 55 racehorses listed. Of the 55 top listed, only three are trained in Australia - they are Black Caviar, Sepoy and More Joyous. Great Britain has 17 horses within that list. Again, I note that the top listed horse, Frankel, is also rated 8 pounds ahead of Black Caviar. These are the official world rankings.

[@CharlesOlney23]

@MrCaspa21 Surely a very good horse wins easily and by winning eased down the horse wont necesaerily run a quick time. Frankel doesn't need to run fast times becasue he wins so easily. However, in the Guineas he ran the first 5 furlongs in a faster time than Tangerine Trees won the 5 furlongs palace house stakes. Now that is FAST. And he still won by 6 lengths. Tangerine Trees has since gone on to win the Abbaye. Shergar never broke any records time wise but won the Derby by a record 10 lengths.

[@ThefightingCelt]

@MrCaspa21 Name one Aussie winner of the VCR AJC Derby who could have beaten Epsom Derby winners such as Sea Bird II, Sir Ivor, Nijinsky, Mill Reef or Sea The Stars, among others. The fact is that the quality of middle distance thoroughbreds trained in Europe: England, France and Ireland to be more precise, far exceeds anything the southern hemisphere can throw up. One of your own, Pat Glennon, who rode many winners in OZ, said of Sea Bird II, that he was the best he'd ever ridden - or seen !

[@CharlesOlney23]

@MrCaspa21 I agree that Black Caviar has been more consistently impressive. However, Frankel has impressed me more in some of his victories. His 2000 Guineas win was dubbed by many to be the greatest winning performance of that race in living memory. His win in the Sussex was brilliant giving he beat the then top miler in Canford Cliffs. And his last win in the QE2 was perhaps even more impressive bearing in mind that Exelebration is the best miler his trainer has had, the mare had dual Grp 1s.

[@ThefightingCelt]

The Group 1 race that Frankel has won are proper Group 1 races - not the glorified handicaps which are run in OZ. Even Black Caviar's next race has suddenly been upgraded to "Group 1" status simply to attract her and her trainer's greed. A seven furlong race between Frankel and Black Caviar would be fascinating, but I have no doubt whatsoever that Frankel would have her gasping for air before the final furlong. Frankel would win.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@Scodan23 And I still dont think hes at his best yet which is frightening. I would love Black Caviar to take on Frankel over 7f or 8f. Shes a great mare but just another Zenyatta Im afraid, Just My opinion. Locked away beating the same horses over and over and maintaining a meaningless unbeaten record. If she comes to Ascot and takes on Frankel then I will give her the praise she deserves, Until then. Yawn, Same old same old. No Frankel...

[@CharlesOlney23]

Is anybody else thinking that arguements between Frankel and this mare are becoming a pain in the old arse? I think we should leave the answer of the question to the horses. Unfortunately they wont meet and we wont be able to understand their conversation if they do. So the next best option is leaving the decision to the proffesionals of this matter - the handicappers. Frankel is higher. However, its easier to achieve this in Europe and over 1m+ so maybe we should wait till both are retired.

[@tigerarmyrule]

@bgardiner2000 I have no doubt you are right bg but my essential point remains that Europe is where the prestige is. Choisir makes the point. It was winning in England that changed the game. He could have won 4 G1s in Aus without making the same impact. I am not for a moment suggesting Aus cannot produce champions. What I am saying is that Ascot, Epsom, Longchamp etc are where the global prestige is.

[@ASupremeOwl]

@Scodan23 runner up by 10lengths (Treasure Beach) He put 38 lengths between himself and Roderic O'Connor who in his next start went on to win the Irish 2000 Guinea's. Black Caviar cannot speak of the same CV, Shes beaten the same old rubbish over and over and the Australian racing authoritys are so concerned about her losing that they've moved a rival in her next race in the starting stalls. Talk about luck of the draw eh?

[@ASupremeOwl]

@Scodan23 Frankel as destroyed Canford Cliffs by 5 lengths who is currently rated the 4th best horse in the world on 127, Excelebration as seen Frankels backside 3 times and is rated the 5th best horse in the world alongside Dream Ahead who as also seen the backside of Frankel twice and rated Champion Sprinter in Europe last year. Frankels form is rock solid I can go on forever, Hes beaten a future King George Winner on his maiden (Nathaniel) Hes beaten a Irish Derby winner/Epsom Derby...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@Scodan23 There isn't a horse in Europe, Australia, America or Asia capable of coping with Frankel over 8 or 7f. Black Caviar as never stepped above 6f so how can you tell Me that She would 'Screw' Frankel over? The highest rated Horse she as ever beat is ranked 18th in the world (Haylist) Shes never met Rocket Man, Sepoy, or the second highest rated sprinter in the world the european Dream Ahead. I doubt beating a 122 rated sprinter by 3 lengths is going to worry Frankel...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@bgardiner2000 Black Caviar as faced nothing of interest. Haylist, Star Witness? Shes never met Rocket Man, Sepoy, JJ The Jet Plane. Frankel as destroyed the best milers in the world. There isn't a miler in the world who would live with him. Black Caviar will be found out soon enough. Aussie Hype machine allover, Like So You Think who was totally found out over here in Europe. Black Caviar wouldn't live with Frankel on a racecourse over any distance. Hes a freak of a horse...

[@ASupremeOwl]

@taykyl001 In the QEII Frankel beat the two of the best milers in the world, Excelebration and Immortal Verse with two cracks of the whip. Please tell me a race where Frankel as had to be butchered with a whip to win a race? Its never happened. Black Caviar wouldn't live with Frankel over 6f, 7f, 8f. Look at his Guineas win. Hes a sprinter, miler, stayer all in one. Black Caviar = Australian Zenyatta...

[@tjjlm444]

@bgardiner2000 we talked on the frankel page about those 2 matching up could you imagine a black caviar and lost in the fog race?in my lifetime those are the 2 best sprinters i have ever seen and they are very similar to me in that they make it look so easy.do you remember lost in the fog having cancer and still winning his races i wonder if he never gotten sick if he would have ever lost either.

[@CharlesOlney23]

I like that mr Svend and Hadley have been having an arguement about who will win the Champion stakes and neither of them predicted the winner. Just because Frankel is better than Black Caviar doest take anything away from the mare. And every country likes to boast they have the best racehorses including the Gerries now with Danedream. On the other hand if So You Think was good enough he would of won today. I don't think he is the world's best middle distance horse any more. Shame about Soumilion

[@CharlesOlney23]

Look, despite Black Caviar being the best sprinter in the world and without all the bull about whether or not what she has been beating is as good as the European Group 1 performers (Deacon Blues, Dream Ahead, Margot Did, Sole Power, Bated Breath, Hoof It, Society Rock, Prohibit). Black Caviar is not the best racehorse in the world. That's a fact and will remain a fact. Joint European champion 2YO, 6 length winner of the 2000 guineas and demolisher of the 5 time group 1 winner Canford Cliffs is.

[@Jamie2462A]

Frankels 200 Guineas was historic. Ran the whole race on his own with a massive headwind. His St James race was shocking tactics but his sussex win put him back on course. What does he have to do for people to realise he is a monster. Look at his 2yr old races as well. He has beat better horses than BC. The UK three yr olds this year were of a top standard. Frankel, Dream Ahead and Nataniel to name a few. I think your horse is amazing but ours is a bit better.

[@Jamie2462A]

@bgardiner2000 Star Witness is a good horse but was dismantled by Dream Ahead in a similar way to how BC beat him. Frankel Steam Rolled Dream ahead when they raced. If you look at CC's form stricly through Rio De La Plata then he is only 2L worse off than than last time out. Im not sure of the standard or racing down in Aus, but i would like to see BC beat Strong Suit, Dream Ahead and the likes before putting her in the bracket with Frankel.

[@themightyeythain]

Frankel is just the final straw that English fans are clutching at to have the best horse in the world. Black Caviar has won 14 from 14, Frankel has won 8 from 8. Black Caviar has taken on all that have challenged her and has scared off the best sprinter outside Australia (Rocket Man). Frankel has been racing pathetic fields and no wonder he kills them, but that 142 Timeform rating is just as bullshit as Pommie Beer, especially to Black Caviar's 135. Give me a break.

[@CharlesOlney23]

@SvendBosanvovski I don't say that Dream Ahead would beat her but he could have got closer than some others although he was arguably best over 7f. We will have to wait and see with DB and I do fully accept that she has been beating good horses. It's good that within 7 days of each other the worlds 2 best horses are competing if be it Frankel is endind his season while BC begins hers. Maybe after Royal Ascot she might close the ratings gap between her and the Sir Henry Cecil colt.

[@Jamie2462A]

@bgardiner2000 We both have our favourites. Canford Cliffs is a very speed miler, all about his finishing speed. Frankel cruised and had him off the bridle 4F from home. CC's jockey said he thought that would never be possible. Frankel has a long stride which means his cruising speed is formidable even though it looks leisurely. Its a shame they are both different distance horses. I just think Frankel has the edge everywhere. I would like to see Strong Suit against BC over 7. Yes please

[@tigerarmyrule]

@Shakira0806 I'm not really dismissing your racing Shakira. For all we know Black Caviar would beat anything in Europe over 5 furlongs. What I am saying is that Australian form which is unfranked in Europe is impossible to judge internationally. You are correct in saying SYT has 3 G1s but in the really big glamour races at Royal Ascot and Longchamp he has come up short. The form does not look as good as his Aussie form does.

[@mickdonedee1]

BC still has some unfinished business in Australia before heading to the UK. There is still one Group 1 WFA 1200m race she needs to add to her CV. The others already on her CV are the TJ Smith Stakes, BTC Cup, William Reid Stakes, and Patinack Farm Classic. Her connections are keen to see how she handles a flight by taking her to the Ascot Carnival (Perth) in November to contest the Winterbottom Stakes. Not even Takeover Target, Apache Cat or Miss Andretti has achieved a complete sweep.

[@happieade]

• Anyway, horse racing is different from human racing. Truly great horses can and do win over a large range of distances. Kingston Town won 5 times over 1200 metres, 3 times over 1400 metres, twice over 1500 metres, twice over 1600 metres, 3 times over 1800 metres, once over 1850 metres, 4 times over 2000 metres, 3 times over 2050 metres, once over 2200 metres, 5 times over 2400 metres, and once over 3200 metres.

[@happieade]

• @bgardiner2000 You say that what I said about Black Caviar is like saying that Usain Bolt is no good unless he won an Olympic medal over 800 metres. I feel obliged to copy and paste my original post to put the record straight. “Black Caviar is certainly a champion sprinter. To be compared to the likes of Phar Lap and Kingston Town she needs to step up in distance and repeat the success, but she certainly runs on like a horse that could handle more distance.” A champion sprinter, you see.

[@711ATOM]

Another fine run. I use to think the trying to stretch her out in distance (7f-8f) might be a mistake, but it might be alright now. Tizway (6), the best horse in the handicap division in the US this year was plagued with injury problems throughout its career; than last year the horse turned 5, stopped growing and the injury problems gradually went away. I wonder if perhaps the same thing is happening with Black Caviar (Tizway is also very muscular)?

[@CharlesOlney23]

Must admit i haven't been accepting her as the best sprinter in the world until now. I can only name 2 horses around that could get close enough to her: Dream Ahead and Deacon Blues. The simcock horse is retired so that only leaves Deacon Blues who is short favourite to claim his first group 1 in the Champion's Sprint on the 15th of oct. He'll be around next year so he could meet BC at Ascot. Frankel will never meet BC because he steps up to 1m2f next year. But BC is still the second best.

[@Lukestar249]

my bad, i used racingpost to find karuta queen's form, i just naturally assumed it would be accurate. what's nice to see is that both owners appreciate the 2 horses are racing phenomenons and rather than cashing in on them they're letting them continue to race, i firmly believe that public demand will see them clash in 2012, black caviar races over 1200m (6F), Frankel over a mile (8F) there's no logical reason why they couldn't meet over a distance of 7F giving us the greatest ever head to head

[@Jamie2462A]

@bgardiner2000 Did you not see Frankel pull away from Canford Cliffs with ease. He would start Favourite from anything 7F or above against BC. Yes she is good, but the standard in the UK is little better than Aus. Not knocking her but look through the form . Goldikova loses to Canford Cliffs who got ruined by Frankel. Frankel can run an almost flat out mile like in the guineas or pull away from one of the best speed horses over the last 5 years like last time out.

[@harmesy37]

@happieade .......Mate....Every horse has genetic limitations....It's like comparing apples and oranges...There is no way the connections of this great mare would contemplate trying to get her to achieve what would be physically impossible......and vice versa.......Phar Lap and Kingston Town wouldn't see which way she went over her specialist distance either...Just appreciate them all for what they achieved ...

[@Lukestar249]

no one seems to appreciate the fact that Black Caviar keeps coming up against the same relatively weak opposition, each race being identical, hay list being the best opponent BC has faced but still nothing compared to the champions that Frankel has simply destroyed; Canford Cliffs, Dream Ahead, Nathaniel, Excelebration just to name a few. Frankel has also showed a range of abilities from making all in straight mile races to coming from off the pace on bends over 7f. pride's going to your heads

[@bull3eye890]

Imagine horse racing if whipping was banned and the desire to run fast was an important attribute when people were deciding what horses to breed. It's not that crazy a concept, surely whipping horses is not something any person of good conscience could support in this day and age. Not after we've had it proven that some horses just like to run fast, proven to us by the likes of Black Caviar.