Testing unknown steels for hardening potential

[@LunchboxNinja]

As someone who is purely a dumpster diving, junkyard car part removing, leftover tool parts thieving blacksmith, this video is right up my alley

[@MauledByBears]

Mark Aspery once said in a demo that 4140 used to be called a water hardening steel and it's now considered an oil hardening steel. He's always hardened 4140 in water and so have I. Never had a piece of 4140 crack in water and I can never get good hardness from an oil quench. Seemed like 4140 to me from the spark and the file/bend tests that I've done. Just my two cents. Great video, John

[@insperatus]

I was just gonna hazard guess at 4140 too, medium carbon steel. I bought some on the recommendation of guess who? ...Mark Aspery

[@MauledByBears]

@@insperatus Yeah for blacksmithing tools you don't need a razor edge because the abuse will dull them quickly anyway. A good tough steel that's easy to sharpen will last longer than a super high carbon steel with a knife edge any day. 4130 sucker rod is a good choice too, the nickel content makes it tough as shit

[@willrombilus2491]

“What steels are good for different tools” video idea

[@PyroBoy-DC]

I was just thinking this would be a good video idea as well. I might just look up a list or chart of best steels for certain tools.

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

I agree. It would be great to see a video of as many commonly available salvage steels (for example sucker rod, axles, leaf spring) and what you have learned about their properties and best uses over the years of using savaged steel. I know you have covered some of this in other videos, but a consolidated place to find this kind of information would be great.

[@miteeoak]

My friend Bill sent in the steel. We have a bunch of it he found in a junkyard. My testing matched John's. I tried oil first. Nothing. I water quenched it, put it in a vice, hit it with a hammer and it wouldn't bend. On the fourth blow it shot across the room. We're going to make some hammers and press tools based on John's recommendation.

[@bennyhill3642]

Great vid Mr John!!

[@nicholecrouch311]

I like using lawn mower blades for making machetes, a lot of people try to discourage it but I personally like the steel because it's low-carbon so you don't have to go through the whole tempering process you just heat treat it, and it can take a beating it gets a little bit harder but it doesn't get brittle and it does hold a decent edge for a while plus the ones I make myself are considerably thicker than your conventional machete and if I have time I take for them to the end so the end half can cut through send stuff while the half that's near the handle is thicker the bevil's I put on it what kind of like a hatchet, and you can chop through small trees and easily make kindling with them, plus if I feel like tempering it a lot less likely to warp because of the thickness, but like I said very easy turn a bunch out because they're low-carbon as soon as you're done forging, heat it to critical, turn right to the oil quench no break, let it sit there till it's cool and then put your bevel, reheat then quench again when it gets cool put your edge on it, and go start cutting things down...

[@patcarlson1277]

When cost is no object a Positive Material Identification gun (PMI) will get you the info you want. I do like the idea of stamped samples. Great job!!

[@tommywright7196]

Glad you put the on I have a piece I found that I would like to make a hammer out of but don't know what it is now I know how to test it

[@5x535]

What a really great video John. Thanks for sharing your thought process as you ran your tests and came to conclusions. It seems like this steel resists bending quite well. Very helpful.

[@jimhumphrey]

I was spark testing metal just 3 hours ago and I come home and find you have uploaded this video. Unfortunately you didn't help me much. I think mine is cast iron. I'm using it for a spacer in a lift I'm building. It's not going to be forged. But as always your video was a pleasure to watch!

[@TufStockdogs]

Thank you for letting us see how this is done thank you bunches

[@christopherpatrick2343]

Great

[@MrDukaman]

Another good one bud. Tricky to figure out what steel it is but fun also. Thx for the info. I just bought a piece of s7 and o1 and there not marked so I was wondering how to tell them apart. All I have to do is harden them. The one that hardens in air is s7. Thx again....Paul

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

Good tip about using the back of your hands to check the heat. I work on helicopters and we use the same technique when checking the turbine engines for air leaks.

[@leperejoe1536]

Very interesting John. Thanks for showing.

[@TomokosEnterprize]

Only time,experience with a center punch can tell us much other than having a Brenell monitor and of course what you have offered us all of this. Your knowledge is great bud. Wonderful post my FRIEND ! The new steels are far more complicated than they were 50 years ago eh. The 4140 seems to be the beast eh. Sure hard to tell for sure eh,

[@tomassvanstrom7176]

I think it looks like something we call in Sweden from there I come for ”blöt järn” wet iron that uses for plows blades and harvesting pins

[@steelpennyforge5152]

Good info! I am terrible at spark testing (don't always see the subtle differences). I like the testing steps you took and the explanation behind it. Thank you for the education!

[@CarlJohnson-ry3gc]

To bad you didn't have any S2 for a spark test.

[@gustavfranklin]

excellent video. for me, you can do 10 more of these mystery steel videos.

[@kenheller3212]

Good evening John.

[@Okie-Tom]

Very interesting test. Nice little chunk of steel. It would be a very nice steel to make some bead roller dies out of. Tom

[@tobyjo57]

Wishing you and your a very Merry Christmas Sir and very happy new year, I really appreciate that you always take the time to answer my questions...Not too many guys like you around God Bless

[@BlackBearForge]

Merry Christmas

[@donoday8101]

Great subject for everyone. Thank for another great video,

[@deemedappropriate4790]

Very informative. Thanks

[@SAVAGE_IRON]

send a slice to peters heat treat, they can tell you what it is. i did that with some unknown steel i had, and they told me it was 1045.

[@garethbaus5471]

I didn't know they offered that as a service.

[@yousefemad8735]

I learned alot from one video thank you very much and keep on the good work.

[@andynick01]

Excellent video ​ @Black Bear Forge. Thank you so much for all this great information

[@charlesmay8251]

I found an old car axle in a field this week, Ill test it!

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

Most axles are cromoly steel (something in the 4100 series). Probably not great for knives or chisels, but cromoly steels are pretty tough and would probably be good for impact tools that don't need to hold a sharp edge.

[@tonetoner8789]

Very practical and helpful video. Thankyou

[@bentoombs]

Spark testing is so hard. I can never decide. Lol

[@redlionforge9173]

Always great info on this channel!

[@guvenguven7038]

What is "super quench"? Can mild steel quenched and hardened to make for example a bowie knife or an woodsman's axe ?

[@BlackBearForge]

Super quench is a mix of water, salt and detergent. The recipe is fairly exact. It will harden mild steel to make it OK for things like swages an fullers but not for knoives

[@tobyjo57]

Sir, this was very educational with regard to spark testing, thank you. I just wonder if that 2 inch bar offcut was maybe made from salvage melt down stuff, i.e. Melted down scrap cars and trucks which would give it an absoulute unknown carbon and allow content ( Body panels, Engine Blocks, Gear Boxes and Bearings etc'etc'etc )

[@BlackBearForge]

While steel mills do use a lot of recycled steel in the production of new bars, it isn't random results. They still have precise control over the end product and I am sure this material met an exact specification the day it came off the mill. We just don't have that information available

[@JohnJohnson-bg2oo]

@@BlackBearForge I have a question about circular sawmill blades. I've recently been given a few from a saw blade servicing business here in Idaho, some have the carbide teeth still, one , they've been removed. My question is, what type of steel are they made from, and, what would I quench a blade in if making knives? Or would you even quench a kitchen knife made from them? Thanks in advance for any wisdom your experience allows.

[@billwoehl3051]

Some scrap yards have a hand held electronic device that tests different metals and tells you exactly what it is, would they be worth investing in if your stock is mostly scrap metal?

[@BlackBearForge]

When I looked at those they were very expensive. I could scrap all of the mystery steel and only buy new material for less

[@glenlinscheid5681]

@@BlackBearForge If you are a frequent recycler they will usually test a sample for you for free once in a while, if you want to make a habit of it you may want to offer a few bucks per test. Another machine shop owner in my area once told me that if an employee cuts off the colored end of a bar he would get fired, and I can see why. Much more though if the mills ever standardized their color charts!

[@danuke4254]

My theory is it could be a recycled steel like rebar. Rebar normally is hardenable and does better when hardened in water although I have heard of people hardening in oil to I imagine all peices don’t have the same carbon content so yeah best thing I have is recycled steel

[@getoverit4887]

Rebar can sometimes be hardened because of the fact that rebar is made from reclaimed steels. It's a big conglomeration of steels that have been recycled. Some rail spikes are hardenable as well for the same reason.

[@danuke4254]

Exactly that’s what I was saying

[@danuke4254]

Exactly that’s what I was saying

[@danuke4254]

Exactly that’s what I was saying

[@danuke4254]

Exactly that’s what I was saying

[@flybyscy]

Hi John. I have a 60" by 1" roughneck hex shank digging bar #64530. It has a point on one end and a 2" chisel head on the other. I looked it up on amazon and it says heat treated drop forged steel. I don't think I'll have much use for a digging bar so I want to use the material for making other tools. What type of steel would such a tool usually be made of? and what tools do you think it would be good for? Drifts, cut off hardy etc.?

[@BlackBearForge]

Most of those sort of things seem to be oil hardening, but I can't guarantee it. Should be good for forging tools

[@flybyscy]

@@BlackBearForge Thank you

[@patrickpitz1879]

Is there anything to worry about when storing coal long term, in open/closed spaces or humid/damp spaces or any other common situations? Anything to lookout for or take notice or be cautious of?

[@BlackBearForge]

I would just store it away from the building if there is a fire risk. But otherwise it seems like no one much worries about it.

[@patrickpitz1879]

@@BlackBearForge alright thanks for the reply! Appreciate it.

[@nicholecrouch311]

Hahaha I guess I burn myself too often it doesn't bother me much anymore until my gloves start melting into my hand then it hurts I always wear gloves and safety glasses when running the forge. I hardly burn myself badly when forging but when I'm cooking charcoal at the same time I get in a hurry and get too reckless I guess, and forget the charcoal cans are in the fire and sometimes grab them, I did tonight and the wire handle melted my glove into the hand and it was tender going back to the forge and feel the real heat...whoops, but like Grandpa always says we always forget the obvious lessons quickly and have to relearn them over and over because you know what will happen but it doesn't come to mind until after you've done it LOL Merry Christmas everyone, stay relatively safe and have a great holiday celebrating Jesus's birthday

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

My wife has started calling my hands oven mits. Since I started forging about 6-9 months ago my hands have gotten so used to the heat that I can grab a cookie sheet strait out of the oven, and as long as I set it down quickly it doesn't leave a burn.

[@nicholecrouch311]

@@KevinSmith-gh5ze that's a good name for it lol I am a commercial electrician and have been hit with some high voltage a few times and work is slow at the moment so my girlfriend lets me take her phone and watch these videos to learn more and I love this guys channel, but I have a bad habit of grabbing the steel with my gloves if my pliers aren't holding it right to adjust the work, I was making more charcoal tonight and was wearing just regular work gloves and I grabbed a bucket out of my kiln in a hurry and it seered straight through the glove 😒 it blistered almost instantly I was just glad my water quenching bucket was nearby, the got a line through them and a few fingers got singed but one is pretty bad, if it wasn't so dry outside I could have set it down and saved my hand but I don't want a wildfire on my hands... I've been forging for around four months and have made some nice blades, with no major fires so far, right now I'm working on a throwing tomahawk set of four for my next door neighbor out of railroad spikes, I I was watching this video to see if I can find out what kind of steel rail steel is, it heats really nicely but I wanted to find you if I have to harden it because it's pretty tough to get that metal head to move flat instead of a rounded top so is definitely not low-carbon but I don't know what it is

[@KevinSmith-gh5ze]

@@nicholecrouch311 I've stopped wearing gloves for that reason. I tend to grab things I shouldn't when I'm wearing gloves. Without gloves, you tend to feel the radiant heat before you actually gab a hot piece of steel. It still happens from time to time though. From what I've heard railroad spikes are a medium carbon steel. They will harden in oil and hold a decent convex edge, but don't expect to make strait razors out of them.

[@getoverit4887]

You should be wearing leather gloves. Leather doesn't melt and it takes a bit longer for heat to pass through. The best kind are the leather that isn't smooth. It's got more of a fuzzy texture like suede. Just a tip for the future.

[@nicholecrouch311]

@@getoverit4887 I do I been through two pairs so far lol I move the metal into position with my hands if my pliers or tongs aren't doing it quick enough

[@robg836]

Can someone please link me to the video where John talks about removing zinc coating from hardware?

[@getoverit4887]

Soak them in vinegar for about 48 hours.

[@robg836]

yea that works too but he gave a lot of tips about using acid and also a forge in the video @@getoverit4887

[@BlackBearForge]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqObm4iVYq-KfsU

[@robg836]

Thank you sir! @@BlackBearForge

[@goshnodo]

Alternatively every scrap yard and metal facility on the planet will have a gun to test Metals. You can always simply ask them to test what type of metal it is.

[@BlackBearForge]

Strange that in 35 years of working iron I have never seen nor heard of such a "gun" and don't know anyone else that seems to know anything about it either. Can you provide a link?

[@goshnodo]

@@BlackBearForge here in Alaska we use xrf non destructive testing to test quality and makeup of Steel in recycling centers. There are many brands that make different types and size of equipment but typically it's a portable handheld gun. Here's a link for one example. www.bruker.com/products/x-ray-diffraction-and-elemental-analysis/handheld-xrf/s1-titan-series/overview.html

[@adam_pata]

the guys name is bill

[@stanervin6108]

👍🐾🔥⚒

[@davidweeks1997]

The entendres here are kicking my ass with laughter. Just add: "That's what she said…" :-) The best! And yes, I'm just your average 59 year old, twelve year old boy.

[@danielcrawford7315]

Too bad theres noymt some majic machine we could just run it under and it would spit out what it is. I've got several huge pieces of steel I would love to know what they are. 5" round 8ft bar that's like 1600lbs slated to be my power hammer ram ...several forklift forks 8" x 8ft slated to be my anvil. Several axles from 50ton planetary drive axles...ect. lolololol too much stuff and no real answers lolololol

[@maxprophet2401]

Spectrometer would be a good name for that tool and it may require a little magic to buy one. Some bigger salvage yards have xrf analyzers but you might offer a little cash incentive if you don't plan on selling them anything. Someone here can probably tell you about the forks..(5160?) another non- real answer sorry

[@danielcrawford7315]

@@maxprophet2401 , thank you sirSir. One fabricator I know told me he thought they were made of M 1 or M 7, and another gentleman said he thought they were made of 52100, also a gentleman from UK said he thought they had a metallurgy consisting of ch+ or - 4/6%, mg around 10% and v + or - 4 / 5%. I do know they will destroy a hacksaw blade I short work lol. I've got a 1" ball bearing and from 12 in drop test I get about 10.5 or 11 in rebound. So I figure that it would make a good anvil top. Just not sure how to heat treat it after I weld it all up lol. I know theres alot of good guys on here n figured maybe someone had greater idea of them than I did lol. Thanks again and blessed days sirSir, very merry Christmas, Crawford out

[@maxprophet2401]

Poke around here with what info you have. geoffbassociates.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Thermec_2000_Paper.17363035.pdf

[@maxprophet2401]

Real answers! Merry Christmas!

[@danielcrawford7315]

@@maxprophet2401, ahhh very much appreciated!!!

[@nicholecrouch311]

I like using lawn mower blades for making machetes, a lot of people try to discourage it but I personally like the steel because it's low-carbon so you don't have to go through the whole tempering process you just heat treat it, and it can take a beating it gets a little bit harder but it doesn't get brittle and it does hold a decent edge for a while plus the ones I make myself are considerably thicker than your conventional machete and if I have time I take for them to the end so the end half can cut through send stuff while the half that's near the handle is thicker the bevil's I put on it what kind of like a hatchet, and you can chop through small trees and easily make kindling with them, plus if I feel like tempering it a lot less likely to warp because of the thickness, but like I said very easy turn a bunch out because they're low-carbon as soon as you're done forging, heat it to critical, turn right to the oil quench no break, let it sit there till it's cool and then put your bevel, reheat then quench again when it gets cool put your edge on it, and go start cutting things down...

[@garethbaus5471]

I once made a lawnmower blade machete that didn't harden at all, it still works.