BLADESMITHING | Which Steel To Use For Knife Making | Beginner Tips

[@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237]

"#1 reason i'm doing this is to help you" And that sir is the #1 reason I am your fan.

[@josephfortenberry684]

Agreed

[@elyanae9588]

Which are you, pedestal fan, ceiling fan, desk fan, tower fan etc? Nice to meet you

[@Koyotito20]

I've been a welder fabricator for 1 year and now I'm getting into blacksmithing. This has been a huge lesson! Thank you.

[@Ivor-e3n]

Always nice to listen to someone who has worked it out for themselves, no hearsay here. Thank you so much for sharing.

[@HaplesslyUnhapless]

It’s nice to have someone who doesn’t just repeat what he has heard. You’ve obviously done a ton of metallurgical homework. Thank you for the video.

[@matthewfarinella2704]

I enjoy your honesty about what you know and what you don't know. No bragging.

[@TheRdickey]

I wish I would have heard this advice 10 years ago. I waisted way too much time on mystery steel and eventually lost interest in the ordeal. This video has renewed my inspiration.

[@Eirik_Eiderdrake]

Perfect man these are the actual questions I've been asking and nobody wanted to give me an actual clear answer you finally did it in this video. #1

[@edgarrolla6748]

Great mindset, Jason. Thanks for sharing. I only disagreed on one thing... "I could keep on going on and on abou this stuff but..." Mr. Knight! Please, go on about this stuff! You have all this incredibly curious, precious, robust and elegant knowledge. Make webinars, teach classes, reach as many people as you can. You ARE already changing the world. Beautifully!

[@noahnipperus7320]

2:35 This is one of the reasons I love you brother, thank you so much for all of your videos; they work

[@Puppybreth242]

The 5 dislikes must be from forged in fire contenders you sent home. Awesome video!

[@levvy001]

😆😅

[@moneyslayer8416]

There's 51 now now it's those people's friends and family

[@jeffreymiller9706]

Thank You...I have a burning desire to forge my own blade. This information is invaluable.

[@geoffford7648]

I have just started my research of forging and knife making and super keen to get started. From everything I have watched, you give the best no-nonsense advice. I have learnt more about steel selection in the last 15min than I have in the last 2 months.

[@thedarwinexperience5312]

Always enjoy your content. Something you've said earlier this year that has really hit home. "Cheap things are expensive" I think this rings true to what you've talked about here.

[@forgelefemme]

I agree. It's been a thought I've kept in mind since he said it.

[@zaneamberbeard135]

When you posted this I was forging 80crv2. I love this steel and the only other steels I use are the w2 and Hiatachi 1085. I love all of them but, my favorite is the 80crv2. I tried it after it was recommended by you ! Thanks for the sound advise.

[@greekveteran2715]

What's your opinion on 52100? My favorite user knife, is made from ballbearing steel and I like it more than my 80crv2 knives. I would say, that ballbearing is more suitable for small and medium size blades and 89crv2 for large. I could be wrong though, because I;m a user and nor a knifemaker. Happy new Year!!

[@levigivens]

@@greekveteran2715 Why even post? Can you not read?

[@greekveteran2715]

@@levigivens As if you could read,that the comment was made more than one year ago. What's your problem anyway

[@elijohnson8323]

Awesome video. I am fairly new to knife making but I'm getting old quick. I made about a dozen knives about 15 years ago. I now know that I made them very poorly but all are still in use and doing well. Now, at this late stage of my life, I am picking up the hammer again and trying to make really good knives. As it turns out, I really didn't know anything about properly making a good knife. Thanks to your video's I'm learning the right way. I know these are old video's and you probably won't ever see this comment, but I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I will work my way through all of your video's that I can find.

[@bmcmanuswpd]

I've watched every episode of Forged in Fire since it started. I always thought I would love knife making. I made/forged my first knife on July 24, 2021 at Resilience Forge with Kyle Gahagan and was in love with forging knives. I desire to Be a Maker. Your Videos are Great with Info for Beginners. I've also started listening to your podcasts. Thank You for Sharing Your Knowledge!

[@markpaulson6539]

I’m very grateful for your help in these videos. I know that some processes don’t have a short cut without also having big repercussions following, but your advice has been priceless and very helpful for me. Thank you for your willingness to teach and share from your experiences.

[@davefman1984]

80crv2 is probably my favorite knife steel as well. Ive made several knives with stock removal. I can't vouch for the forging aspect but the heat treat is easy and a very tough, strong result. I would recommend it to anyone getting into knife making

[@colinheurter617]

Thank you for dropping knowledge on us Apprentice Smiths!

[@SandMDOTCOM1]

Thank god for people like you. You share your knowledge instead of guarding it. I just purchased my first Anvil on line today (NC knife maker) and haven't forged since 1983 (high school metal shop). Looking forward to trying the knowledge that you share.

[@TheFlintlockStalker]

I'm new when it comes to knife making, for the first knife I made I used this steel I got from home depot. Tbh I didn't know what kind of steel it was when I got it but later on I found out it was a low carbon steel. Thanks for this video, it kind of helped me understand the types of steels more.

[@stevenjohnson2273]

Most likely it was 1018/A36. It's good for general blacksmithing when you don't need hardenable steel.

[@jeaninebotha6888]

I am really enjoying your content Jason. Becoming a black smith/ blade smith has been a dream i have had since i was a young teen. time has passed, life has happened and i now find at 37 years of age finally rediscovering that dream. I am tooling up to have a real go at my passion. thank you Jason Knight for imparting your knowledge. I am a maker!

[@MrBlack2062]

Such great info! I wish I wouldve heard this years ago. Just now starting to use 80crv2 after years of forging. You are right about it.

[@kevinmichael9999]

Thanks for the video. I just purchased three billets of 1084 because I read I was good to start out with. Plan on doing stock removal to start out. You are on of the many people I watch and I appreciate every video you make sharing your knowledge and passion. 🙏

[@Aleeknives]

After watching your unknown metal wakizashi I forged a gladius sword from a similar spring! I agree with you about buying known alloy steels, however, there is a certain feeling of accomplishment you get when you turn a piece of scrap into something beautiful! I love that gladius even more knowing that it was just trash and I transformed it into a sword. You wakizashi was the bomb man!

[@wildhorseoutdoors7659]

That clip spring thing you show in the video is a railroad anchor they are placed on both sides of a wooden railroad tie they go under the rail the loop end hooks over the base of the rail and then it is squeezed to the opposite side and the groove end presses tight to the rail. They are used to keep the rail from sliding around and holds it tight to the ties. Just a background of the item. Thanks always for awesome videos and knowledge Jason.

[@nightsquatchprepper6965]

I am super new to bladesmithing thank you so much for your videos they have been a huge blessing to me and my 13 year old son we are learning together.

[@jacksanborn7474]

Just ordered 2 flat bars of 80crv2 thanks appreciate what you do ! BE A MAKER !!

[@shane-zt9ix]

Whats the specs and how much was it? Thanks Boss

[@jacksanborn7474]

@@shane-zt9ix 2 bars .... 3/4x1.5x24 .....$78 with shipping

[@jacksanborn7474]

Jason !!! Would love to see a how to on custom tongs ! Thanks

[@ericcartrette6118]

That is the single best description of 80CRV that I've heard so far! I'm curious about this steel because so many are using it right now. A word of "testimony" if you will: I work at a sawmill and can get the industrial circular saw blades for free. That is what I started forging with. Now, the vast majority of blades I have sold have been made from that steel and I have had no complaints from the customers. BUT! It does get expensive. I don't have a plasma cutter so I cut out the bars with an angle grinder. The edges aren't necessarily straight. It takes extra time in the forge to get them straight. There is lots of time put into just prepping the steel for use. All of that is time that could be spent forging a blade instead. While I'm not totally against using "reclaimed" steel, it increased my learning curve substantially and I don't suggest it to new makers. As Jason said, new steel isn't really that expensive, especially when you turn it into a custom blade that would buy you multiple bars of steel to replace the first one.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Thanks again........Jason...no fubar is very good...!

[@bentoombs]

Great info. The uncommon stuff is great for learning and trying different things and then replicating that into a known steel. Nice shirt, Mine just showed up. Thank your whole crew.

[@noahnipperus7320]

That was exactly on my mind. (I categorize myself as an "advanced beginner" because I've only been forging steel for about 3 years but i have also been teaching/supervising/production forging for about 3 years...) I've been banging on some free truck spring and learning pre-form, profilling, tapering, beveling, etc... I still feel like I have basic things to learn from "junk" steel because I don't have a lot if money right now as well...

[@RedWest2010]

Glad someone else is on the same page :) Can't disagree, nor would I be qualified to do so, with anything he said. All sound advice and based in knowledge I only wish I had. But that $40 piece of 80CRV2 is before shipping, and it's a few feet long. I pick a 3" wide spring that is "likely" 5160, and it gives me 30 linear feet of steel to work with in 1.5" billets. For someone who doesn't know what he's doing and has only been blacksmithing for about a year, I'd much rather learn and experiment at $1.00 per blade. And if I get lucky and it's clean 5160 and heat treats accordingly, I may just end up scoring. But you go into it knowing you're gambling, but practicing. If the day ever comes that I'm making a blade to sell, then all that goes out the window and we're back to the 80CRV2 for a sellable quality product.

[@manny3655]

Mr. Knight, hands down, this was the most informative video I’ve seen on basic steel. No nonsense, no bs and explained in such a way that even a “metallurgy moron” like myself can understand. Thank you!

[@rickward4384]

i tried the 80crv2 and fell in love with how much smoother my forging comes out, its almost like the steel "flows" in to shape. With out question using good quality steel was the best advice i have received, from an earlier video of yours, in the short time i have been forging. The video with Bert Foster was awesome and i learned a lot from the "point forging" demo, hitting the right spot not just swinging a hammer. Thank you for giving your knowledge so freely, i have learned a lot from you. Just a side note the Tigerlilly was my Great Grand Mothers favourite flower and i still grow lots of them. Thanks again.

[@kevinmcneill2693]

Did you use a power hammer or hammer and forge it out by hand? i have debated on getting 80crv2 because i do not have any power tools like a press or power hammer yet. I m not sure how easy this metal is to move purely by hand.

[@rickward4384]

@@kevinmcneill2693 all by hand, no press no power hammer. It is the most user friendly steel i have used

[@joehicks1930]

I like what you said about making damascus with steels that will make a blade by itself... makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that little bit of knowledge.

[@markdressler6651]

Thank you for doing these videos. I'm just starting out at bladesmithing and live in a small town so this is the only way I can get the information. Again thank you for doing this

[@chewyakarieckenicholas6049]

First of all I would like to say that I think that you are an amazing Smith I truly appreciate everything that you post and I really enjoy the videos thank you for sharing your knowledge

[@kirkholden5389]

Thanks, I am 53 and just started. I was planning on railroad spikes, but now I think I will buy some good steel.

[@BlackHoleForge]

Thank you Jason. I've been doing my research, but there's so much to learn, and the amount of information just makes my head spin. Again thank you

[@bobsanders356]

Great explanation of why not to use scrap to make blades. I make other things like plant holders, incense burners, and practice moving metal with scrap. Great for teaching my kids.

[@TheJaguarspark]

Beginning bladesmith, about 30 pieces in the year and a half since I started. I've been leery of 80CRV2, and have been using either 5160 (from Jantz) or 1095. I'm happy with my results so far, but if 80CRV2 is better, I'll have to give it a shot. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights!

[@wildsnook]

I love 80CRV2. Thank you for recommending it in a text years ago. I love it. I forge it regularly and know it is solid steel. I'd say it is also relative!y expensive,that's why manufacturers use steels like 1075. I can make a great blade out of some spring steel I've done the work to figure out. So 80 CRV2 is excellent all around but other steel may work great by aplication.

[@BYGPoetry]

im probably not the first to comment this, but im fairly sure that "mystery steel" is an "E-clip" they are used to clip into the bottom of rail tracks on either side of a railroad tie, to stop the rail from sliding, I have been keeping a few aside to practice with. Awesome to hear youve sent some away for testing. Love your content

[@hmann0314]

Great information. I feel much more confident in listening to advise when it comes from someone that can explain why they make the choices they make. Compared to the person who says....."Because, that is the way I have always done it." I admire the person who does their own research. Thanks for the info.

[@thomasmcgovern2431]

I deeply appreciate your sharing your knowledge,I myself like to work smarter not harder,as you said our time is valuable,so if I can pick up a great tip on working with steel it is deeply appreciated,thank you for your knowledge.!!!!

[@firefistforge1982]

Hey Jason I'm glad you are putting your knowledge out there but remember some people can't afford to buy known steel and I'm going to experiment with unknown steel to make things that are not blades and still make money the good thing about this is I can experiment with unknown steel to see if it's worth making a knife but still make useful items that people can enjoy.

[@vardlokkforge9766]

Amazing video. I have only been forging a year and half now and it's truly overwhelming when your just starting out trying to decide which steel you two use. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skills to help us on our journey to being makers and producing quality products. Thank you again for sharing the amazing knowledge.

[@joker0206]

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and thought. It's much appreciated.

[@RedBeardOps]

Hell yeah man... 1084 / 80CRV2 are the winners in my opinion. Buy a nice clean mono-steel and get in the game! Excellent advice, sir! I have yet to try out W2, but it's on my list to do! Also, love the pop's knife supply plug. That place is the bomb!

[@robertwebb8511]

Try to watch your videos as as often as possible. New to knife making, been forging about 4 years mostly making tools. Great info. Please keep them coming. Learning a lot. Thank you

[@jimo6934]

Learned more in this video then I did in 3 weeks watching others love the plain speak and experiance based knowledge over other sites...

[@nickelmickel4170]

I found a one inch metre long round bar on the side of the road.its been sitting beside the shed outside for about six years now and still has no rust on the end cut.i am no no knife maker but it amazes me after all these years the round stock hasn't rusted and still is shiny on the end after six years of weathering.

[@alexanderjammes8253]

The spring that you showed as 1084 is a rail clip. It is used to keep the rail from moving (due to thermal expansion and contraction) causing sun kinks and broken rail.

[@mariusbarnardo5592]

Only saw this vid now.... Great advise from one of my favorite bladesmiths! As a bladesmith myself (South Africa) I need to agree! 80CRV2 is just different! I don't make Stainless steel knives, and this is due to personal preference and experience. Some love it and others hate it. (Guess where I fall in). Also it's one of the more "simple steels". Like 1084 that doesn't need any soak time. If your forge, kiln or oven is dialed in, it hardens pretty damn easy..... 1095 is a great steel but need soaking at the right temperature to really shine. I absolutely love using SAE5160 and naturally 80CRV2. (The 1080 series is just "as" good) but hey, that's just me. Each to they're own I guess.

[@ronamedee2475]

Thanks Jason. Always great to hear from your no nonsense view on knife making. Keeping it real.

[@Eric-gi9kg]

I recently became a sub. And from the first time I saw what and how you do your videos I'm a fan. I'm seriously interested in getting started. Hoping to get in a class this fall. I have an anvil that belonged to my grandfather, and I am buying used tongs and other tools that are nearing 100 years old. Excited to get into this great hobby/ way of life. Thanks for all that you do

[@Labrador_Forge]

This is the kind of information that's hard to find. I'm a new maker, I sat down and spent weeks of research and on paper I thought 80crv2 was what I wanted to work with. You just confirmed that for me and I'll be ordering quite a bit of it now!

[@trevorteague8430]

I'm just getting into forging. Been a welder/ fabricator for about 20 years now, and have made a couple knives, but I'm definitely no knifesmith. But I want to be one. I'm trying to soak up as much information as I can before I get started. Thank you for making this video and showcasing a few of the different types of steels. I ascribe to the "but once, cry once" philosophy, so I ordered a few pieces of 1095 and 15N20 to play with. I'm going to have to check into that 80CRV2 steel also. Thanks again.

[@mylarhyrule3752]

One point I may make against your free steel argument.... for a new smith, sometimes the experience of making said knife/whatever is more important than coming out with a great product. As long as the maker understands that forging mystery steel may be nothing more than practice, I think there is for sure value in free steel... that said, I appreciate your mindset and it really is refreshing to get your point of view

[@HeavyForge]

Excellent content!!! As a heavy equipment mechanic I repurpose a lot of steel I come across in the road construction industry. I’m able to get ahold of the manufacturer on some items for steel makeup. Except for CAT everything’s top secret with them.🔥⚒💪🏻

[@ishada1]

CAT? I'd almost bet if you sent some yellow iron to a lab its a 50/50 on whether or not its trash. I'm not an expert at all but I think its safe to assume that peoria is using polished chinesium

[@OOEarth]

I make hydraulic pump parts for Cat. I know exactly what goes into them.

[@HeavyForge]

@@OOEarth do tell! I’ve tried to get them to tell me what they’re track pins are made from and bucket teeth pins

[@OOEarth]

Like I said I make hydraulic pump parts. I don’t know about tacks or bucket. But from being a machinist I can tell you the toughest material I deal with is 52100. That stuff is absolutely brutal. Fairly corrosion resistant also.

[@guloguloguy]

WOW!!! Thanks, for this information. What sort of heating equipment do you prefer?!... coal/gas forges. or an "induction forge"? What are some of the best grades of steel alloys, for making longer swords?!... Do you heat-treat the entire blade identically, or do you recommend some sort of differential heating/hardening/tempering process?!...(Perhaps only the very edge of the blade needs to be very hard, and leaving the majority of the blade at a "softer" temper...(?)...What about "cryogenic tempering?!...

[@helix_helix]

Thanks for this gem. I like how common sense and basic logic intersect with facts and experience in your videos. Makes it real easy to learn 👍

[@Incandescentiron]

I'm not sure what is meant by making an "integral". I love your no nonsense advice. Thank you for posting!

[@scbane]

An integral knife has bolsters that are a part of the bar stock. Material is simply removed around the bolster and pommel to form the blade and handle. Thus the bolster and pommel or just bolster, is integral, rather than a mechanically attached bolster.

[@Incandescentiron]

@@scbane thank you!

[@nathanthomas6460]

Thanks for the information Jason. I loved watching and getting to know about you on Forged In Fire. I began bladesmithing a few years before FIF came on the air. I joined a local blacksmith club after taking a blacksmithing class with a local artisan. Our club “Four States Iron Munchers” has existed for decades, and I’ve been a member for about 7 years. I have built a knife grinder. I am slowly learning. I am a teacher and have two small children, so the amount of time I have to forge and make is limited, but my long term goal is to be a master smith by the time I retire from teaching so I can make really high quality knives for several years after retirement. Keep up the videos. I love the information from a master. Oh, I have a friend who is a master, but I don’t get to spend a lot of time with him. So videos are really helpful. Roger Massey is his name. He made the replica bowie at the Alimo in San Antonio.

[@Kainosktisis]

Starting with good quality materials gives you good quality products, your talent makes it even better, don't waste your talent, time and money on inferior materials, great advice.

[@leemitchell3020]

Wow, glad I watched. I have a stack of old 70's Chevy truck springs and a bucket of worn out Nicholson files I was saving for when I retired as well as chipper blades from a chip board plant. Lmao

[@jameskapales4696]

You just turned my whole world around... loved the style of the video by the way.

[@yanickst-onge9843]

Hi Jason. I'm just starting in the blade/blacksmithing world, and i really appreciate your tutorials , very informative with a no BS approach . I am not really well equipped so far but at least i can forge tools and knives. This presentation on which steel to use was helpful , and I was happy to hear that you like the 80crv2 to work with , after a few tries with 4340 and 4140 ( all i could find to start with) , I found some 80crv2 and liked it much better. So keep up to good work and giving the new guys like me some valuable info.

[@daytonjonesia]

It helps to know you are still learning much about steels. Learning steel is such a rabbit-hole... the more i learn, the more i realize i don't know lol

[@doelbaughman1924]

Awesome information! I VERY much appreciate the service you give all of us! As a materials science fan, and a budding knifesmith, this is fascinating and invaluable info.

[@bayleybaker773]

Just wanted to say I’m a huge fan of forged in fire and am hoping to get into smithing myself after I learn welding for my first full time trade. Seeing that you posted a video explaining what steel is better for beginners etc made my day and I look forward to more forged in fire, more smithing videos and hope having you judge one of my blades someday

[@printingnewb7840]

I love watching your videos. Ive learned a lot and have a lot more to learn. So far I've failed and making a decent demascus.

[@junebrooks665]

I watched your video with great interest I never knew there was so much involved in step, thank you

[@breese7488]

Hello Sir, I've just subscribed. I appreciate the fact that there is very little ego in your video's. Practical info, useful and observable techniques. Sincere thanks to you. Blessings to you and yours.

[@charcole_https]

Just wanted to say thank you. Just started building my first forge and look forward to applying the knowledge you so kindly shared. Much appreciated!

[@jorojinnomad549]

Very insightful... can't wait to visit metal shop now...

[@fredbrown8022]

Good show Thanks

[@philipprigmore8723]

Jason,, sorry for the delay in watching this. I completely enjoyed it. I was curious about 80CRV2 and Aldo was kind enough to give me a piece. I am falling in love with it. It is much easier to work, and the edge retention is amazing. I hope to have some knives to show you whenever I am able to get down you way. Have a wonderful weekend and keep on making these super instructional videos.

[@danunger3240]

Good advice from a wise man. Long time fan here.

[@torng2259]

Thank you so much for putting this out. I'm just starting to get into smithing to the point where I haven't even been able to make anything yet. And this has helped me a lot to know what kind of still I should get.

[@joeaguirre7074]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Super fun hobby and I've learned a lot from you. Keep posting and I'll keep watching.

[@richardsoutdooradventures5125]

Awesome video, I really like it. I'm just starting with knife making, only doing stock removal and I have chosen 80CrV2 for my next knife because I saw you talking about it in some previous video and so I did some research. Continue doing such a good content

[@althesmith]

If you know your spring shop, you can usually find the alloy (in Canada, most often 5160H) if you take the time to get a hold of the supplier and you can get off-cuts of brand-new steel cheap quite often when they cut up stock for new springs, or you can get 6 foot lengths for a decent price . I like 5160H for really monstrous bowies and big swords.

[@ajsaenz2295]

Thank you for the great knowledge! I really like the way you layout the information with no BS. You have a new follower here!

[@earsmalloy]

Hey Jason. New Jersey Steel Baron carries and has in stock W2. For myself I have had great service from them. I’ve ordered 80crv2 and W2 from him. Also I’ve really enjoyed your videos and appreciate your time and information that you share. Thank you Mark

[@thehouseofronin9209]

Thank you for all these great videos. They are very helpful for beginners like me

[@glitched4070]

Thank you for a brilliant informative video 👍👍👍

[@tnhillbilly1307]

Thank you for explaining things in a simple down to earth manner...I look forward to watching all your videos that you and your team put out 👍👍

[@forgelefemme]

You break it all down in an easy to follow way.

[@mastersplinter5600]

Thank you for making this and sharing. A lot of great information

[@anthonyp7051]

Thanks for sharing all these tricks&tips

[@engelwyre]

I'm an intermediate beginner and have started using 80crv2. Although I'm only doing stock removal, I can say that I've had less warping in the quench with 80crv2 than with 1080 or 1084. It just requires a longer soak in the forge before quench. It's a really nice steel and a good suggestion from Jason.

[@erikcourtney1834]

I too am starting to get on the 80crv2 wagon. Has every quality that I like in steel. Started with 1095 and graduated to 80crv2. 🙇‍♂️🙇‍♂️

[@ericweikel6045]

What is the ideal temp heat treat for 80crv2 ? I’ve been using 1095 which is easy to work with and heat treat. Can you heat treat until non magnetic just like 1095?

[@wesp3779]

Thanks for help along the maker journey!

[@erniebeswick7675]

Thanks for the knowledge Jason

[@rre1953]

Thanks , i realy like your straight forwardness and all your knowledge

[@DenneyKnives]

You mentioned 1095 being dirty steel. I've used 1095 for years and have noticed blemishes that are hard to clean up when putting the final finishes on the blade. My son and I have talked about the quality of the steel and what you mentioned could be the reason. Thanks for the video.

[@projectt-tech8885]

Please keep making these videos, picked up more knowledge in these videos then any other I watch

[@Hunter-wd8id]

Straight to the point liked it Thank you

[@elimiller7142]

Mr Knight thanks for your videos and direct candor. I know you have your preference in steel. Do you have anything good or negative to say about 52100? My friend Ed taught me with ball bearings, I was wondering if you think their is a better option?

[@SAKAYA22]

Stainless like AEB-L spank 80CRV2 in every aspect according to latest metallurgy lab test... higher toughness at similar hardness, higher wear resistance, and far better corrosion resistance.

[@JoshuaCassella]

Stainless is a bear to forge with though, tough to move and decarbs.