Blame The Force Awakens for the failure of the Sequel Trilogy?

[@RogueFox2185]

JJ deserves just as much blame as Rian since he undid the accomplishments of the Rebellion/New Republic along with the fact that him not bringing the OG cast together for this movie was beyond stupid, these among other factors was what made TFA the precursor to what we have with the rest of this trilogy.

[@edwardbloecher4563]

Amen

[@jimjam51075]

JJ had always been an overrated hack who got lucky once.

[@ianleifheit7105]

Ryan deserves more hate and he rightly had.

[@jimjam51075]

​@@ianleifheit7105It's honestly hard to say. Johnson's previous efforts were meaningless narrative rambles just like JJ's were hollow carbon copies of older stories. The best that can be said about JJ is he had the class to remain quiet when called out on his lack of talent, unlike Johnson.

[@bellissimo4520]

JJ deserves SO MUCH MORE blame... he began the shit-show. Johnson just had fun and did whatever he wanted - because he could. The damage was already done with TFA.

[@weezyslob]

Yes, I’ve never understood why JJ gets a pass. JJ stuck Luke on that island, he made Luke a coward, he made Han a deadbeat dad reverting back to his old ways, he made Rey a “Mary Sue”. TFA was a “safe” movie, a paint by numbers Star Wars movie, there was nothing new, even Lucas said that. He even did the Death Star part 3, the Death Star is a PLANET now! 🙄 We didn’t know the motivations of the First Order, we didn’t know the government of that current time period that they wanted to destroy (and no you shouldn’t have to read novels to get the full picture), we didn’t know why Maz had Luke’s saber, we didn’t know who Rey was, it was all a lazy JJ mystery box with no payoff. Like you say we didn’t even get a Hayden force ghost, Disney were cowards and didn’t want to include any prequel stuff. “This will begin to make things right” was a huge slap in the face to Lucas. TFA was boring and predicable, never got why it gets a pass. We were robbed of Jedi master Luke, seeing Luke Han and Leia together again, of the adventures the EU had in our heads put to the screen, screw the entire Disney sequels.

[@thorthewolf8801]

Audiences still viewed TFA with rose tinted glasses, it was the first star wars movie in quite a while, they had hopes disney would be competent, so they either ignored everything bad or expressed how they wish the follow up movies correct these mistakes. In actuality, it was a foundation of sand, the sequels were doomed to fail.

[@finalsecretofchrono1339]

Not everyone from those TFA audiences. Many of us left the theater is disgust. I think it's actually the worst of them all. (Never saw 9)

[@michaelfields7088]

You are absolutely right. Force Awakens had the best marketing for pretty much anything. Even people who werent even Star Wars fans rushed to see Force Awakens. Disney acquired Lucasfilm at a time when Disney was at their height but their mishandling of the property was part of their downfall.

[@thorthewolf8801]

​@@finalsecretofchrono1339Yes, not everyone, but that was the general consensus sadly. For the record, I didnt even go to see tlj.

[@nevasoba5953]

Well said

[@ktsul12]

Finally! Thank you! It was the start of the trilogy, so it was the most important for setting up the characters, conflict, themes, etc. Since it followed soooooo closely to a new hope, it not only failed to continue the previous story, but it didn’t leave them with anything meaningful to move forward with. The following movies would either follow the OT and be redundant, or they would go in different directions and feel out of place. That is why I refused to see the following films, there was no point…

[@jimjam51075]

As a Star Trek fan, I knew Star Wars was done as soon as they hired JJ Abrams to write The Force Awakens.

[@DeepDeepSpace]

yeah JJ turned Star Trek into Fast and the Furious in space.

[@BishopWalters12]

He did even more damage to Star Wars overall.

[@yodaman4674]

@@BishopWalters12I’m not sure you’ve seen the rotting corpse that is Nu Trek with Discovery and Picard (season 3 only gets a slight pass), etc. There’s horrible shows and no movies. At least Star Wars has had some decent TV shows and the actual possibilities of movies in the future.

[@jamesfleming1710]

Yep. Overrated hack. Does adequate action, can't write a logical, coherent story.

[@jimjam51075]

@@yodaman4674 Both series went straight down the bowl after he had a go at two of the reboot films in each franchise (yes, they were both soft reboots). Abrams is the harbinger of mediocrity.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

One thing I think they could have done with Luke is have it so that he never lost faith, but rather had too much faith. One of Luke's most celebrated traits was his complete faith in his father that ultimately allowed him to bring Anakin back to the Light. However, any trait taken too far becomes a bad thing. Have it be so that blind faith kept him from seeing what his nephew was becoming until it was too late. And now, blind faith in the Force is keeping Luke on this planet. He is thoroughly convinced that when the time is right for him to return, the Force will send him a sign and until that happens, he's staying put. Rey tries to convince him that maybe she's the sign he's been waiting for but he doesn't believe that but still agrees to train her none the less. This eventually ends with the First Order learning that they're there and sending The Knights of Ren to try and kill them. After the battle, Rey asks if that was enough of a sign and Luke agrees that it's time to leave. I don't know if this would have worked but it can't be worse than what we got.

[@kevincrady2831]

Definitely. Or, they could have had him decide that the Jedi being involved in politics and serving as agents of the Republic is what led them astray and got them destroyed. So instead, he takes his New Jedi Order to a reclusive "Tibetan monastery" type place and trains them as apolitical Wuxia-style righters-of-wrongs. Think Cain in Kung Fu, with a lightsaber. So then Leia and/or Han have to try to persuade him and the NJO to come to the New Republic's aid.

[@OgamiItto70]

Congratulations. Jar-Jar Abrams has made a movie so bad that he's suckered you into writing what was supposed to be _his_ movie for him.

[@kevincrady2831]

@@OgamiItto70 Too bad he couldn't have gotten someone to write a better movie for him _before_ filming it.

[@PixelKatana]

I gave TFA the benefit of the doubt because it was setting up the trilogy but I left the theater feeling uneasy because of no Luke, Han's death without being back together with Luke and Leia, Rey knowing about everything even though she lived her entire life on a desert planet and she bested Kylo after never holding a lightsaber before. I was willing to ignore that but to ME what makes TLJ the worst of all is the way it replaced Luke with that thing we call Jake. I won't go into the plethora of other things because that alone is enough for me.

[@BishopWalters12]

Many people were blinded by excitement for TFA but I left the theater like this isn't a good sign and to your point, not having Han, Luke and Leia share screen time was one of the biggest failures in movie history.

[@nooneofimportance2110]

TFA was a fun dumb ride, that really wasn't a Star Wars film. It was a Star Wars rip-off, that happened to have the SW logo on it. I think that's the main point. TLJ on the other hand went out of it's way to be mean spirited to the fan base. The less said about TRS ...

[@TheZamaron]

For me, whatever probem TFA had, TLJ just made them worse and added it's own problems, if TFA was the beginning of the failure, TLJ was the final nail in the coffin that doomed the whole thing. EP 9 was just the death throws, only reason I saw Ep 9 was because I just wanted to see how badly this dumpster fire woulf end, and it was a horrible end. THe Sequels are an utter abomination, the Prequels have flaws, but at least they kept the OG characters intact or improved them like Palpatine and Obi-wan, and it tied into the OT very well and actually told a coherent story. The Sequels will forever be remembered as Disney's failed attempt, a shitty add on that ruined the possabiity of telling stories in the future of Star Wars, any success would have to be found in things for the OT, PT, and Old Republic.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

Jake was there even in Episode 7, the Luke I know wouldn't have abandoned his friends in the face of galaxy-wide danger. We just didn't get to see him yet. Believe me I am the last person to defend TLJ or what was done to Luke but you can't act like it was ONLY in that.

[@hazzamataz92]

Everything about Luke in the Last Jedi was spot on to the Luke we know. Without JJ making some claim about what Luke was up to between episode 6 and 7, The Last Jedi wrote Luke exactly how he would be based on the original trilogy

[@captainvader921]

Let's also not forget the fact that he gave in to Harrison Ford's wishes in killing Han. When he did that back in Episode 5, they came up with putting him in Carbonite, and confirmed that he was still alive. Then in Episode 6, George Lucas and everybody else resisted, because they knew Han was too important of a character to just kill off. But J.J. Abrams? Nah, Harrison Ford's a popular actor, he knows what the best choice is.

[@kevinmccabe7263]

The Force Awakens and JJ Abrams bear the majority of the blame for the sequel trilogy. Those first foundational choices Abrams made ensured this trilogy would never cohesively fit with the other trilogies.

[@nurabsal0x018c]

JJ chose to not put Luke Leia and Han on screen for ten minutes of fan service. JJ chose to nuke the entire end of ROTJ. JJ chose to have the entire plot line of the film revolve around a long chain of idiotic and contrived coincidences.

[@Skywalker20239]

I don't like all sequels, i think disney made a big mistake, not to show us the old canon in the big screen.

[@dereklopez9060]

Even though TLJ and TROS are truly atrocious movie's, TFA isn't off the hook either. That movie was just ANH all over again, and Starkiller base was one of the worst ideas to come up with. Also, regressing Han Solo's character development, let's not forget about that. Even George Lucas himself said that it was unoriginal.

[@Milothemighty10]

If I had to watch one of the sequels as some sort of corporal punishment or to get some sort of reward it would be force awakens. Yeah, I don’t like it, but not as much as what came after. It’s actually sad that after years of waiting for an episode seven not only do we have it. We have eight and nine and literally everyone I see myself included hates them. Also remember if you hate the sequels regardless if your reasonable about it then your toxic or something…

[@dereklopez9060]

@@Milothemighty10 Words like Toxic, racist, sexist, misogynist, don't mean anything to me anymore. Because they just love to throw those words out like free candy. They throw them out without any evidence, without thinking, and that's the problem, they don't think. Those are the type of fan's you can't reason with. But yeah, TFA wasn't good, but I was still opened up to what will happen next. Unfortunately, it got so much worse after that.

[@Milothemighty10]

@@dereklopez9060 yeah it’s people like that, that give the the Star Wars fandom a bad name…

[@dereklopez9060]

@@Milothemighty10 Yep, I agree.

[@terig5584]

You know though, instead of eventually tearing down Luke, they logically could have “regressed” Han Solo and made that somewhat interesting. Maybe Kylo turning to the dark side broke him. The problem with Han in TFA is that there was nothing there except a tool to be used for a shock moment and establishing the enemy. It was basically “remember that smuggler scoundrel that you like? Well we just killed him, be amazed!”

[@MegaSpideyman]

Hard to decide what the worst one is. Or if they're all equally bad.

[@e-satan9032]

Episode 8 is worse. I did rewatch episode 9 once while I never felt like rewatching 8. But both sucks.

[@ianleifheit7105]

9 is easily better than 8 for the simple fact that 9 shits all over 8 and i love that.

[@HanSoloxcs]

There is a true Star Wars perpetual complaining fan! 😂

[@strategicperson95]

Personally I hate the "wasted potential" argument the most. It implies that argument that x thing would have been better if it followed a person's random thoughts on it. The problem is we didn't get that. The person wasn't and never was in charge, and neither the did the director and writer take advantage of that potential. "Keep thinking like that, and you'll run out of time my friend. A path not Chosen is the same as a path that never existed. 'If only I done this, if only I done that.' No matter how much we look back at the past, we can never go back. We cannot change what has already happened." - Rau le Creuset

[@kolaranze]

7 is the worst one. Everything was wrong with that movie. 8 and 9 couldn't have been better because of the 7.

[@johnpoulton9446]

Handing the baton to the next generation is a basic story element. If Luke Han and Leia made the audience accept the new characters then we would have(if they were written much better) but it was clear the writers couldn’t pull it off. The only redeeming aspect of the rise of Skywalkers is that it gave the finger to the last Jedi like the last Jedi gave to the force awakens.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

No, honestly, it didn't. JJ Abrams clearly loves the Last Jedi, with him legitimately wishing he had written the script for it prebacklash. Him retconning TLJ in TROS doesn't show righteous disapproval, it shows that he will flip his stance on whatever "the fans" think. And giving TLJ the finger even in-universe is a scummy move

[@ImTheReverse]

@@officialmonarchmusicExactly. JJ is a spineless people-pleaser. He cares more about doing what he thinks will makes the fans happy then actually telling a good story. He also completely misunderstands what the fans want.

[@lennyztrobos8678]

@@ImTheReverse My take on JJ is, he's just not a competent writer. He can't write a good story, or please an audience with satisfying fan service, because he just doesn't have the skills in him. He's a fine director and he does great work with a camera, but everything he takes a pen to is dog.

[@anarionelendili8961]

Have to admit that I pretty much went 'I have a bad feeling about this...' since the opening crawl of TFA, as it was setting up the same plucky Rebellion/Resistance against the Empire/First Order, and sending Luke away for no real reason to keep him out of the picture and have a 'death star plans' sorry, I mean 'stellar map' (which still blows my mind, when three galactic coordinates would locate the planet exactly). By the time they introduced the even bigger and better death star, I pretty much lost all new hope, and when they blew it up in the same episode, I was kinda done. I still went to see TLJ and RoS in the movie theaters with my wife, but the magic was gone. So yes, I can see the argument that TFA made for a faulty foundation to begin with, as Thor says in the video. But I also agree with his thesis that since it was just the first out of three, there could have been something in the subsequent ones to save the story. Which is why TLJ and RoS get all the hate.

[@libertyprime2013]

Based

[@XanderVJ]

If you knew JJ's track record with his goddamned mystery boxes, you knew the entire trilogy was done for. It was salted earth: nothing good could come out of that. So no, it being the first movie shouldn't be a reason to give it a pass.

[@VeNoMsEpItApH]

I remember how slapped in the face I felt after watching the opening of the force awakens for the first time in theaters. Everything that had been set before it had been completely hard reset with no decent explanation. I couldn’t believe that Disney opted for telling and not showing. It is almost like another move set in another parallel universe.

[@kevincrady2831]

My headcanon is that it is: *1)* Kylo and Darth Vader's helmet: Anakin's Force Ghost never came and slapped some sense into him? Kylo aspiring to "finish what [Vader] started" only makes sense if Vader was killed, rather than redeemed. *2)* "Jake" Skywalker: What if Luke had killed Vader in his fit of rage instead of sparing him? Of course he wouldn't have switched sides and became Palpatine's apprentice, that would be silly. But if he'd had to flee before Palpatine, narrowly escaping before the DS2 was destroyed, he would never have become the confident, successful Jedi we see at the end of ROTJ. Instead, he would have felt like a fraud, never able to live up to the hero people saw him as. Sensing Kylo's turn to the Dark Side, Luke would not have had faith that he could redeem him, only the fear of a new Darth Vader arising. *3)* Palpatine: If Palpatine is not thrown down the shaft by Vader, there is no "confirmed kill" like we see in ROTJ. For him to survive in severely-injured form would be less implausible. In the "board room scene" in ANH, we see a high-ranking Imperial officer showing skepticism and disdain for Force-wielders, so perhaps that view was not uncommon among the officer corps. Unable to count on support from the Moffs (who would have good reason to blame him for the debacle at Endor), perhaps a badly-injured and enfeebled Palpatine would have had to go into hiding to recover and gather resources instead of resuming command of the Empire. *4)* DS2: In ROTJ, we see the Death Star explode into "small" pieces, with no significant structural elements remaining. In TROS, a very large piece of the DS2 has crashed intact, with Palpatine's throne room in one piece, further suggesting that he could have survived with the aid of the Force. If Lando, et. al. were forced to delay the destruction of the DS2's reactor to give Luke time to escape, the DS2 could have completed its turn toward Endor, changing the circumstances of what lands where. If the reactor was hit under different circumstances (different angle and location of hit, etc.), perhaps it could have exploded with less force, allowing the large piece we see in TROS to crash on the planet. *5)* The New Republic: The New Republic is headquartered in "the Hosnian System," a place not featured in any of the other Star Wars movies, instead of Coruscant. This further suggests that we are looking at an alternate timeline. Perhaps it was also the Galactic capital under the Old Republic and the Empire as well? Relocating the utterly vast administrative bureaucracy of a _Galactic_ government would be no small undertaking, and it's not the sort of thing the Rebel Alliance could have done "just because they felt like it," while simultaneously trying to transition from a decentralized guerrilla force to stable galactic government and fighting against the surviving forces of the Empire. Furthermore, TNR would need the legitimacy conferred by ruling from the same capital as the Old Republic.

[@VeNoMsEpItApH]

@@kevincrady2831 Well thought out, but the idea of parallel universe can stay with Marvel and out of SW, tyvm.

[@kevincrady2831]

@@VeNoMsEpItApH I agree, in principle. OTOH, if some future exec could use that to de-canonize the Disney sequels and do a better job on the second try, I could accept it.

[@riftshredder5438]

Actually there were people trying to call out The Force Awakens since it got released, but people ignored them because their nostalgia goggles were on too tight

[@Taipei_103]

When i watched TFA I thought it was a good movie because nostalgia had somehow prevented me from being able to accept that there could be a bad Star Wars movie. The same thing with TLJ until a friend pointed out how nothing made any sense.

[@Y2Kr4SHM4N]

It’s fascinating how most people believe they like what they do due to their individual taste; however that individual taste is entirely dictated by agreement with the herd. Think about what you see within something. Or what you don’t see.

[@pritikinaa]

I really liked TFA first time I saw it. When I did a re-watch after it left the theaters I was absolutely bored. It relied far too much on nostalgia.

[@kolaranze]

I didn't like TFA after seeing it for the first time. Was baffled why people like it.

[@MrNoscopeJones]

I distinctly remember walking out of the force awakens not having liked it at all and I was the only person in my friend group who felt that way. At the time I thought maybe I was still just bitter about the fact that they torpedoed Legends and that I wasn't giving the movie a chance. The backlash that seems to be increasing against Force awakens is something that I find to be kind of reassuring to be honest.

[@marsoelflaco5722]

Some fans just follow blindly, they want to love it because it's Star Wars...then reality, and subsequent years of Star Wars rubbish, sets in and they come to their senses.✌🏽

[@kevincrady2831]

Me (and my friend group) too. I didn't mind so much that they torpedoed Legends, otherwise it would have constrained Star Wars' main story arc to book adaptations. What bothered me is that they did so, then failed to create an actual _sequel_ (as in "continuation of the story,") but went with a bar-band cover of ANH instead. The book adaptations would have been better. Also: why are half the planets in Star Wars copies of Tatooine?! When they're not just Tatooine (looking at you, Prequels).

[@DarkSide2377]

What I've been saying for years. The Force Awakens basically resetting the series back to 'Jedi are gone', 'The Republic is gone', 'The Empire vs. the Rebels 2.0' was what doomed the trilogy. However TLJ and TROS tried to change things, TFA locked them into repeating the original trilogy's basic story.

[@dannyhuskerjay]

Well luke was always gonna end up on the island in Lucas sequels. But he’d be more like Marlon Brando in apocalypse now(which Lucas originally was going to direct) a veteran tired of war who ruled over a community. So the Luke’s jedi order would be hiding because they knew a new war would wipe them all out and Luke refused to help for this reason. Which is a lot better then what we got.

[@admiralseabass8993]

the only reason I have seen for Luke not "helping" would have been his desire to really prepare himself before he passes on his learning.

[@kevincrady2831]

​@@admiralseabass8993 IMO Luke could have learned more about the demise of the old Jedi Order, and decided that being a political organ of the Republic's government was what led the Jedi astray and got them destroyed, and decided that they should be apolitical knights-errant instead. Perhaps the leadership of the New Republic would have agreed. It's hard to pick a worse "general" for a large-scale mechanized military force than someone only trained in magic and individual combat. The Union did not hire the best Wild West gunslingers to be its Civil War generals for a reason. TNR would have needed to build a proper standing military and officer corps in order to fight a prolonged war against Imperial warlords. So it would make sense for both Luke and TNR to agree that TNR needed to be able to stand on its own, without depending on one guy and a gaggle of Padawans and Younglings (it would have taken him many years to find new recruits and train them into a new corps of Jedi Knights) to be the main pillar of its strength.

[@Gusg220998]

I do. All the issues of the sequels were born here. The mystery of snoke, making Luke a hermit, rey mary sue, another deathstar

[@harrylime5370]

Anyone know if Michael Arndt version of the sequels have ever been released on line? I know he wrote the first script and had outlines of the whole new trilogy and I think it was based on Lucas’ sequel trilogy. Arndt is someone who kind of gets lost the the whole sequel preproduction story.

[@marsoelflaco5722]

Abrams; a cafeteria cook tasked to chef a 12 course meal. Johnson; the lunch lady who takes over when the cook has food poisoning.👩🏻‍🍳

[@Cornel101]

This was pretty accurate for me, I didn't leave the theater after watching TFA going "oh my god that was awesome!" In fact I found it rather lackluster. But I still expected/hoped episode 8 would give us solid satisfying answers to our questions. What a fool I was.

[@RaikenXion]

JJ AND Rian are Both Equally to blame because all they had to do was simply sit down and brainstorm ideas to basically come up with a overall story that was consistent to what came before and that they could both be satisfied with. In all honesty i just really think they should have basically used George Lucas' treatments; i've banged on about this so many times now i sound like a broken record, but it's the most logical plan if you really think about it. the Sequel trilogy was a conclusion of George's Story, his Saga. He handed it on to basically a whole new generation to tell his story, simply by using his treatments as a kind of blueprint, foundation to work off of; just like the way George himself actually used another great Filmmaker *Akira Kurosawa* and his classic - "the hidden fortress" Film, as a basis with which to structure his original 1977 *Star Wars* film off of. this was pretty much all JJ. Abrams had to do. Kathleen Kennedy was in agreement with Bob Iger and then Disney executive Alan Horn, in throwing out George's treatments, after he was of the understanding that in selling his company, Disney would be obliged to use those treatments. For them to not do this shows a betrayal of George Lucas. Rian is a absolute pos for what he did with his movie; and i sincerely hope one day, some crazy, weird, artsy kind of director comes in and REMAKES Rian's "Knives Out" and completely subverts Everything in that overrated movie, turning it all on it's head and then he will know how it feels. Rian had so much freedom to basically take the story in any direction, the KoR were out there to be used. Luke's ex-students who followed Kylo? Maybe they were descendants of past sith, carrying the same bloodline or something, basically anything could have been done with them because they looked so cool and mysterious. Snoke also, Rian just hod no real imagination to do anything interesting, and i think he also resents us passionate fans who know way more than him about the lore.

[@dominicseibert3048]

I don't understand how you you can be handed a generational character like Luke Skywalker and just kick the can down the road. You get one shot in 10 lifetimes at something like that. Abrams gets a massive fail for that alone. Then what Rian did to him was a giant troll job. So disgusting.

[@bryanblackburn6928]

I've said it before but one of the biggest mistakes with the Disney trilogy (aside from not getting the original heroes on screen together) was that there was no overall coherent story arc planned from the beginning. That mistake alone was big enough that people should have lost their jobs. Johnson was allowed to do whatever he wanted. I assume KK read that script and gave it the green light. She either had to know what a mess that would make for Ep 9 or she was unable to see the problems it would cause. Either way, how could that not be considered incompetence. As for the topic at hand. The Force Awakens certainly has plenty of flaws and should share some of the blame for the overall problem with the sequels. It was pretty much a copy of A New Hope (basically a reboot as you say) and it did undo a lot of the things that were settled at the end of the original trilogy. Not just the Jedi Order and the New Republic but Han and Leia as well. In hindsight, I probably should have disliked TFA because of those reason above along with a few others, but I think I was just starved to see a Star Wars movie on the big screen. I along with many others are part of the reason Disney paid $4 Billion for the IP....built in fans who were going to see that first movie multiple times no matter what....and so I did. And loved it at first, the nostalgia was real and the ending hinted at more to come with Luke in Ep 8. Then the Last Jedi happened. R.I.P.

[@marsoelflaco5722]

Kennedy; inept. 12 years and still employed.🤦🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♀️

[@lucajohnson8318]

Hey Thor, something which we can all agree on is the unbridled genius of John William's scores throughout the entire saga: including in the sequels. I was wondering if we might get your thoughts on some of your favourite pieces throughout the films? For me, Battle of the Heroes, the Force Theme, Asteroid Field, Rey's Theme and Across the Stars have to be some of his finest compositions.

[@KetsubanSolo]

There's a great video by Sideways that analyzed Rey's theme, and he points out all the various existing leitmotifs hiding in the song to conclude that "Disney has no idea what they're doing" and gauging audience reaction to one movie to make the next. That's why she has so many leitmotifs: if part of her backstory aligns with one of them, Williams can emphasize that one and downplay the others.

[@jimjam51075]

It's a shame too. Williams talent was wasted on these films. He would have served a greater purpose working on noodle commercials.

[@gnc623]

I actually think for the Star Wars trilogies, the prequels had the best music overall. Duel of the Fates, Battle of the Heroes, and Across the Stars are just such breathtaking compositions. Honestly, I don't hardly remember any new compositions from the sequels. Everyone always mentions Rey's Theme as a highlight but I have no recollection of it. The only new music I clearly remember is that musical cue for Kylo Ren.

[@Milothemighty10]

After years of waiting for an episode seven after the first teaser trailer and all the hype here we are nearly 10 years later and literally everyone I talk to hates the sequels myself included. As someone who loves the prequels It’s honestly kind of amazing that today saying that you love them is no longer a hot take…

[@00yiggdrasill00]

That's an easy enough thing to explain, it's called passion. George stuffed up the prequels by forcing it all into three movies, but he put so much care into the characters, world building and story. Everything is at least somewhat believable within the laws of that universe and the motivations of it's characters. The "no love" thing was criticised when ep2 came out but it was designed to tie into ep6 where love is literally what saves Vader, toppling the empire, defeating the Sith and restoring the Jedi in luke because he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps but not make his mistakes. None of this is present in Disneys movies, not a single character to my mind ends up anywhere even remotely predictable from where we last saw them, and yes some lives go like that, but not. Every. Single. Person. Would have that happen. Georges failure was over ambition in a trilogy that should have been at the least four movies if not more likely six. Disney put in no effort beyond what representation and message they could send and even then they failed by sidelineing leia, turning mon mothma into a brain-dead idiot and outright abusing Finn.

[@theusernameicoodfind]

I do. I at least think Rian gets too much of the blame, he deserves the criticism of the film but he was also trying to figure out a reason for why Luke would Abandon his friends like he does in 7. It wasn’t a good reason, many say it was a character assassination, but JJ began that.

[@slockhrt]

I was so disappointed by TFA, that I never watched it again. I didn't plan this at the time, but it turned out that was my only view of a Disney Star(t) Wars movie.

[@slockhrt]

^ The "t" was a typo. It happens, ...but then I considered the new meaning of the sentence, so I put it back in. ^

[@williamlarochelle3160]

The worst decisions come from Kennedy. She told Arndt Luke was distracting frim the new characters. (Does anyone care about them now?) and ghis aline got Luke sidelined so backstory and flashbacks and mystery box instead of linear narrative. She told imagineers who worked on OT ficused Galacy's Edge park two years, "We have more films ahead of us than behind us so why appease 50 year old men?" SO THE PARK CELEBRATED THE SEQUELS NOBODY CARED ABOUT. Some defend KK for whatever her producing duties were on Eighties and Nineties director druven projects with multiple producers. Now as the president she only considers Lucasfilm a "platform," the way Kurtzman feels about Trek.

[@chrisval04]

The new trilogy was doomed from the very conception of the Force Awakens, but as you say there was hope at the end, anything could happen, it was an open ending with a lot of possibilities, but the last jedi happened :/.

[@laavanya9584]

I have rewatched the Charlie Rose interview with George Lucas a few times and it seems to sum up what Lucas always intended Star Wars to be : "a story about generations, the father, son, grandfather, ultimately a family soap opera, family problems, it is not really about space ships". So it was about humanity at its course, but the backdrop was space. Then why are we endlessly debating this for years on end? Lucas's vision was clear.

[@PastorAndrew]

Trevorrow's screenplay for Episode IX would have tied the trilogy together in a way that made TLJ better as a part of the whole. Abrams' choices for the third film further alienated TLJ. People may not like what Johnson did, but he at least gave us plausible answers to the plethora of questions Abrams set up in TFA despite having no idea how anyone was going to answer them.

[@NZealand]

Trevorrows episode 9 would’ve actually made the sequel trilogy worth it

[@gregwilson2382]

The Force Awakens was so safe a movie that it forced The Last Jedi to take a lot of risks.

[@Kevin_Street]

Unfortunately I was a Force Awakens Hater. I even remember the exact moment when I gave up on that movie: when they blew up Hosnian Prime and the other characters could see the explosion in another star system. After that it didn't feel believable. It wasn't a _story,_ it was just actors saying lines written by someone who had no idea what they were doing. The death of Han underlined that feeling. At first I had some hope for Last Jedi, but it didn't take very long for that feeling to disappear. It was kind of amusing how Last Jedi kept pointing out how ridiculous the previous movie had been, but its relentless "subversion of expectations" felt like they were making fun of the audience for ever liking Star Wars, or at least that's how it felt to me. And that certainly didn't lead to any greater connection with the story.

[@calvinmatthews1527]

I remember being so pumped & optimistic when coming from seeing The Force Awakens, everyone was. Such a massive shame Disney screwed all of this goodwill up!

[@tw19771]

I wasn't, I forsaw all of what we got. I did leave the idea out there that if JJ was handed a well written story, that it might end up being good, since JJ is a competent director but atrocious writer. we got JJ, we didn't get that well written story that was vitally required.

[@davidhusk6747]

Most were pumped and optimistic. I went to see how the relationships worked out. Anakin's children in their relationship with The Force and the Solo's marriage. I left feeling unenthusiastic about what was to come.

[@jimjam51075]

If you were a Star Trek fan and had seen what JJ had just done in Star Trek Into Darkness, you would have known exactly what to expect from The Force Awakens.

[@Magicpickle5]

Not everyone--I knew what was coming.

[@TheZamaron]

@@jimjam51075 Except that those films are self contained to their own timeline, and honestly it's not terrible, it works for a movie, despite not feeling like STar Trek, still better then Discovery.

[@TommyTucker74]

I ignore all the sequels. I initially gave TFA the benefit of the doubt. I just knew they had a plan to tie everything together, create new heros, while honoring the OG's. After TLJ tho... All that hope went out the window, and turned into IDGAF anymore. So while he doesn't get all the smoke, JJ definitely deserves his fair share of it.

[@RedXlV]

It's truly insane that they *didn't* have a plan to tie everything together. That they took this multi-billion dollar franchise and then basically told the directors "go wild, do whatever you feel like" instead of giving them any framework that they had to confine their movies to. And didn't even require the directors of each movie to collaborate in any way, instead letting them basically engage in a retcon war with each other.

[@kevincrady2831]

@@RedXlV IKR?! They could have just taken a million or so out of Disney's sofa cushions and hired literally the best sci-fi/fantasy writer(s) on the planet to come up with a Sequel Trilogy. Or if that was too much work, just film the one they had on the shelf: _Heir to the Empire._

[@dragonhunter1315]

@@RedXlV It's actually a known fact for years now that George Lucas created outlines for the sequel trilogy which would have introduced the Whills which have been part of Star Wars since the initial outlines for A New Hope, and i'm just willing to be that once Abrams was hired as a director he decided to throw them in the trash compactor and remake Episode 4, as Abrams seems like one of those specific old Star Wars fans who only like the old movies without understanding anything about it. I'd rather watch a Star Wars story George created because of his imagination and inspirations rather than a lazy remake, and i refuse to see Disney's sequel as part of the same story as George's.

[@Empyre18]

I called TFA a terrible movie way back when I first saw it in 2015 precisely for this reason. Besides the terrible fanficcy storytelling, of all the millions of possible creative possibilities they could’ve chosen for a new Star Wars story, we got TFA, which hit a giant Reset button on the entire saga, brought everything back to square one, and brought us just the OT all over again except this time with phony corporate DEI. They could’ve chosen to do literally anything, and Abrams chose the most creatively timid, conservative, wheel-reinventing possibility imaginable. I knew there was no salvaging the story after TFA tossed out all the potential and forced the new trilogy onto such a narrow and restrictive story.

[@Usernamehear]

I hated the force awakens from the time it came out but everyone seemed to love it and felt like I just didn’t see what everyone was seeing. I’m glad after a couple of years more people have started agreeing with me it was just bad movie.

[@SamGutermuth]

Imagine hiring a director for your first Star Wars film when he comes in to the interview and says he has no idea for the main character of the previous movies. With so many people who’d be willing to do the job, you’d think finding someone with an idea would be more of a priority…

[@marsoelflaco5722]

Right on! This same hack stated, regarding Star Trek, that he was never a fan of the shows or movies. Paramount: "He's our guy!" How dysfunctional is Hollywood?🤦🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♀️

[@jorndebello7317]

TFA has its problems. The knights of Ren, though. I thought at the time that the next 2 films would have a small number of knights vs. a small number of jedi. A new light order vs. a new dark side order. It could have been so cool, but nope, we got crap

[@Yabuturtle]

This is how I would do it. I always felt the biggest missed opportunity was not showing how Luke and Leia ran the order. That was one of the things that I feel would have made it better. This is how I would make it. Rey should have been Anakin reincarnated, explaining why she is so strong, her connection to the skywalkers, why Anakin's saber called out to her, why Anakin's ghost was absent, ect. Both he and Palpatine come back but in different ways, where Palpatine just puts his soul in another clone body, while Anakin, fearing the return of the sith, gives up his immortality and reincarnates into a completely different body. Rey and Finn also fall in love. Never was that big of a fan of Reylo personally as I always saw them having more of a brother/sister relationship than a romantic one. Rey would also actually have to train as well. xD Instead of just learning stuff that even the chosen one had to train for. She'd still be gifted but I felt she learned stuff too easily. You also could have not had starkiller base. Don't even mention planet destroyers until the final movie, where they release a coupe dozen star destroyers but they destroy well known planets like, Dantooine, Hoth, ect. Rey joins with Luke's new order and after Luke sacrifices himself to prevent Palpatine from killing them, 4 main Jedi go to Exegol to defeat the emperor. Rey, a scavenger and former slave who freed herself and the reincarnation of the chosen one. Finn, a storm trooper that was part of an experiment to artificially create force sensitive storm troopers. Ben, formerly known as Kylo and a former knight of ren, and Poe, a former Jedi from Luke's order and became a bounty hunter who uses the force. Poe, Finn, Rey and Ben join together to fight hoards of sith marauders and sith troopers and finally face the emperor. Leia unites the warring factions that were manipulated by the sith as well as the knights of ren and snoke and his loyalists. There are light sided, dark sided and even gray sided orders shown here, and they all have their own beliefs and agenda.Rey technically fulfills the prophecy since she is the reincarnation of the chosen one and she destroys Palpatine once and for all. Her being the reincarnation of the chosen one would really make the sequel trilogy feel like it's part of the Skywalker Saga. Think about it. Prequels showed Anakin's life as a Jedi, then the originals showed his life as a Sith and with the sequel trilogy, it would show the reincarnation of Anakin: Rey, living a new life and a new adventure. Now be honest, tell me what you think. I personally think something like this would have made the sequels amazing.

[@kevincrady2831]

It's worlds better than what we got. 😂 I would have made Rey an absolute scoundrel ("If it's not nailed down, it's free for the taking; if it is, that's what crowbars are for! And daaamn, mind-tricks and telekinesis will be fantastic for cheating at Sabacc!"), because all she's ever known is abandonment and the struggle for survival in a world where literally _no one_ cared about her, and vice versa. Even -Tatooine 2.0- Jakku is a picture of abandonment: the Rebels and Empire fought over it for some reason, but both just left their wreckage, and the world itself, behind. And then Luke has to try to train her to become a selfless Jedi hero? Good luck with that, Master Skywalker (hence--a real story!). She and Finn could have teamed up as a pair of renegades, and she could have had a redemption arc to mirror Anakin's descent to the Dark Side. Instead of Palpatine Redivivus, I would have went with Grand Admiral Thrawn at the head of an institutionalized "Westphalian" State and military. Despite all the technology, Star Wars militaries are basically at a Homeric level of organization. You get to be a "General" there by performing some act of individual heroism (see "General" Han Solo, "General" Jar-Jar Binks, and the Jedi as "Generals") that does nothing to qualify someone to command a large mechanized military force. "General" Calrissian is the only main character with any qualifications for running a large-scale logistics chain. This is why the "Grand Army of the Republic" set out to conquer a Galaxy with a force of only 1.5 million (the size of the U.S. military): somebody waving a sword or a blaster in the air and shouting "Follow me!" can't command a very large force in battle. The Empire _looked_ more like a modern State, but the qualification for top slots was "can do magic," and superiors could execute subordinates on a whim (instead of an institutional mechanism like courts-martial), which does no favors for stable leadership structure and unit cohesion. But if Thrawn had established a genuinely modern State military capable of combined-arms maneuver warfare, it would not be the sort of thing a small band of heroes, no matter how capable, could take down. If he's using heavily-armored and armed "shuttle/transport" ships as tanks (backed by artillery, air-superiority fighters and bombers) instead of slow, clumsy walkers, he could easily outmaneuver conventional Star Wars forces. With generals able to command division-sized forces from behind the lines, he could amass a military larger than anything the New Republic would have seen, even if he only had a single planet to start from. Thus he would have been a tremendous threat to Our Heroes, as none of their usual approaches (find the Maguffin-spot on the Big Superweapon and blow it up; kill the main evil wizard) would work against his new Empire.

[@terig5584]

If they wanted to destroy the whole Republic (which again in TFA isn’t even really clearly established, like everything else), it should have at least been the end of the movie. Maybe an inversion of ANH would have actually been somewhat neat, they fail dramatically at the end, but maybe Rey saves the group with some miraculous single force action which establishes some hope for the next movies.

[@Deathsyth-ks8uz]

That sounds horrible 😅

[@Jedishill680]

A couple of Luke’s more advanced students could have out somewhere in the the galaxy that isn’t Ahch-to show up later. This way a small number of jedi can be present in the ST. It could’ve been that these jedi along side Rey with Luke could have taken the fight to the first order

[@amarcellus1714]

His advanced students did survive. 3 of them were off planet on a mission when the temple was destroyed. But they were all killed off in the Kylo Ren comic when they went after Ben. So I'm pretty sure all of Luke's students are officially dead. But Lucasfilm can write the story however they want. They can say Luke had more students who were hiding. Look at how many Order 66 survivors were added to the canon after Revenge of the Sith. So anything is possible

[@Jedishill680]

@@amarcellus1714 true Lucasfilm could absolutely say that Luke had more students than previously shown. It’s not unreasonable

[@Masterpain80]

Since rian Johnson killed snoke and they had to bring palpatine back in 9 all they could have done to make the trilogy more cohesive would be that SNOKE himself had clones that he used so he was out of danger, one dies just put another out. He stays put. No need for stupid palpatine. How horrible of a writer were they not to just see that?

[@SgtAJ218]

Hey Thor, I am currently re-watching the Clone Wars to prepare for the Ahsoka series. As I was re-watching Season 6, I've noticed that there's still a big debate about whether Commander Fox was right about killing ARC Trooper Fives. Personally, I think Fox should've stunned Fives instead of killing him in front of Anakin and Rex. But I'm curious, do you agree with Fox killing Fives or not?

[@hawkingjim]

Indeed, it's evident that the sequel trilogy of Star Wars suffered from a myriad of issues that, combined, led to the problems that fans have pointed out. JJ Abrams' decision to play it safe with 'The Force Awakens' resulted in a film that, while visually impressive and entertaining, was criticised for being too similar to 'A New Hope'. The mystery box approach he adopted, intending to set up intriguing questions for future movies to answer, ended up creating confusion and inconsistency when he wasn't available to follow through in the next installment. This led to the reins being handed over to Rian Johnson for 'The Last Jedi', who had a completely different vision for the story. Johnson aimed to subvert expectations, but in doing so, he disregarded several plot threads and character arcs set up in 'The Force Awakens'. This radical departure in direction alienated a portion of the fan base and created narrative inconsistencies within the trilogy. In an attempt to course-correct, Abrams was brought back for 'The Rise of Skywalker'. However, trying to reconcile his original vision with Johnson's deviations and wrap up the trilogy in a satisfying way proved to be a herculean task. The result was a film that many found to be convoluted and unsatisfying.

[@muskatDR]

All the sequel trilogy movies tried to outdo themselves in how much of previous movies they ignored, so i blame all of them

[@daneg]

Things that annoyed me about TFA: 1) WTF is the First Order? Lazy storytelling. 2) Wait. What? Luke's lightsaber is there for Rey. Don't ask why. Just go with it. really? no. REALLY? 3) The final 10-ish(?) minutes of the movie in which Rey (with zero training) resists a very trained Kylo Ren, then pulls mad lightsaber skills out of her arse (along with force potency) to defeat a slightly wounded Kylo Ren. No. just...no. 1 is bad. 2 is just plain dumb. 3 is 100% implausible. You really just created a very dangerous crack in the canon that future films *cough* will turn into a gaping canyon. All of that said, TFA was helped quite a lot by Harrison Ford. He fell seamlessly into his Han/Indy persona. I also have zero objections with the actor's insistence that the character be killed off. It was one of the few things that fit (made sense) in the narrative of the movie and the larger canon. It represented the torn Kylo taking a step akin to Anakin decided to save Palpatine from Mace Windu. That death gets some undue hate from fans. I think that's just the fact that "fan" is short for "fanatic." But the Mary Sue criticism pertaining to item 3? yeah. That was bad in TFA and just gets worse throughout the sequels (and not just Rey's character - my gawd the Mary Poppins scene in TLJ: FML). The Emperor's fleet of super mega ultra Star Destroyers (with Death Star capabilities)? holy shit, Abrams. you're literally tripling down on the Mary Sue-isms. And this time, you can't claim misogyny because it's genderless space ships. it's like a combination of the magic rise of the First Order combined with the magic force prowess of Rey (who again becomes a conduit for all the good vibes on the universe against a sea of living?/dead? sith vampires).🤨

[@admiralseabass8993]

it's a fair point as it relates to Luke, JJ not dealing with Luke at all left open the door for the RJ character assassination of Luke. Still, that doesn't excuse RJ sidelining the rest of the growth of the Rey and Finn and Poe characters, which TFA actually did set up very well.

[@osvaldoolmeda3773]

I agree with the comment. The Force Awakens was the real problem. Most of the concepts established in the movie were bad. JJ just made a copy of A New Hope without anything unique like the original or like TPM. The story felt like a deja vu of Episode IV and that ruined the sequels' potential. For me, the problem with The Last Jedi was that it didn't go far enough. Parts of the plot of the movie even felt like Episode V or VI. The training in Ahch-To was the training in Dagobah, the Battle of Crait was the Battle of Hoth and Snoke's throne room scene was Palpatine's throne room scene from ROTJ. What I really hated about the sequels was the lack of originalitly and that deja vu that made it as if the Original Trilogy had never happened. Also, the total disregard for the Prequels because of JJ Abrams' fear of people hating anything prequel related. They just played it extremely safe.

[@IN-tm8mw]

I liked TFA overall because all the bad things were so open ended that it left room for them to fix it. Now that all the films are out, TFA is guilty of the biggest sin of using Finn (John Boyega) as a False Protagonist. I also didn't like how they tried to make it seem like he was only a trash man or something but again i had tons of fun with his battles and conflicts in the film. This is ontop of everything else you talked about in the video.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

JJ left his homework for someone else to do, and in poetic justice he ended up having to finish it.

[@bellissimo4520]

JJ is the first to be blamed. He set up all the bullshit with TFA. I don't understand why so many people are so lenient with that movie, only because it "feels" like Star Wars. It destroyed the old movies retro-actively right in the opening crawls by declaring that everything Luke, Han etc. had achieved in "Return of the Jedi" was for nothing - as 30 years later, the empire was inexplicably stronger than ever, and the rebellion weaker than ever. Great, with that alone, I can't really enjoy the ending of "Return of the Jedi" anymore. Honestly, I almost stood up and walked out right after the opening crawl, because that made me so angry (also because it clearly indicated that Disney had made no effort whatsoever to come up with a fresh new story, after more than 30 years). And then it introduces Mary-Sue Rey; she doesn't know anything about Jedis, then has a vision showing her that she has the Force, and just 5 minutes later she easily uses the Jedi mindtrick without even knowing about it. JJ introduced Mary-Sue Rey, not Rian Johnson. Johnson just piled on, and obviously didn't give a shit whatsoever, neither for the old material nor JJs stuff. What JJ is also to blame for (just like KK): Not writing up a proper story arc for the entire trilogy. Only because of the lack of such an overarching story could Rian Johnson do whatever he wanted to and kill off the big bad guy in the 2nd part of a trilogy... And then we have the butchering of Han Solos character, and the ridiculous and laughable "villain" Kylo Ren (I honestly almost laughed out loud when he took off his helmet for the first time.... "what, this babyface is supposed to be scary?"). Needless to say, TFA was the last SW movie I watched. Fuck JJ Abrams. Fuck him to hell. He's the destroyer of franchises (both Star Wars and Star Trek). Oh, and fuck Kathleen Kennedy who nurtured and greenlighted this disaster.

[@mikedangerdoes]

Good points here. TFA, in retrospect, does need to shoulder some of the blame. But certainly there's almost nothing it did that couldn't have been easily and subtly retconned or adjusted with an adequate sequel. A writer and producer with some integrity and brainpower could have worked with what they got and salvaged the ship (before anyone even knew it was sinking).

[@mikeblom8897]

JJ is a Hack. That’s why he uses the "mystery box" hack. That’s why there needed to be someone overseeing things to make sure the story stayed cogent. Honestly I think if Lucas and JJ had worked together they could have made something pretty good

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

JJ's ego is too big to work with someone who "ruined his childhood with the prequels" Prequels haters got control of the franchise and proceeded to torpedo it faster than Lucas, that's some karmic justice.

[@sophiekoett1740]

JJ Abrams and his infamous “Mystery Boxes” royally backfired. There was literally no plan / answers for all these questions he set up.

[@naiondell7624]

What I’ve said for years. New trilogy was dead on arrival. Cast was great.

[@Phillibetrus]

Force awakens was a JJ Abrams mystery box. he set so much up that was not answered and without an answer in mind and it grabbed our interest. If when those boxes were open we got something amazing Force Awakens might have been looked back on fondly. As it is when the Last Jedi started to open those boxes that's when people realized this trilogy was a trap. It was while watching the Last Jedi when I got mad and wanted to walk out. Force Awakens didn't do that and only on reflection later did I recognize the issues.

[@marsoelflaco5722]

His career is a mystery box.🤷🏽‍♀️

[@marsoelflaco5722]

The Force Awakens itself shows that the original rebellion was a failure. How did the "New Order" come into power, recruit soldiers, build ships and a base capable of destroying planets, and the Alliance had no idea? The story was rubbish from the start.

[@zw246]

They disregarded George’s outlines for two guys who don’t like eachother and had to one up eachother. Disney failed massively

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

To be fair, how could they have known they didn't like each other?

[@zw246]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о I’ve read from people who supposedly worked on the movies that they thought the other was a hack. It makes sense given how each one tries to out do/undo/ ignored mostly, what the other did. Very childish

[@kolaranze]

8 and 9 could have been totally different movies but I would not like them because 7 was wrong with everything. Same Ekpire Vs rebels fight, felt nothing have changed after 25 years... Force awakens was the Biggest disappointment ever. After 7 I didn't cared what comes after. Sequels are not canon for me and for most Star wars fans. And the sad part is that everything that happens after ROTJ is ruined because of sequels (Mandalorian, Boba, Ahsoka,...).

[@danshakulawrence983]

When trailers for The Force Awakens released for the first time (I was young and not in any news spheres), I thought that it would simply be a one-shot. An episode that would wrap up any loose threads that Episode 6 left off of (Namely the rest of the war that would follow) and basically put a cherry on top of the whole thing, for lack of a better term. I was a little confused, then, when I realized that this wasn't the cap to a whole saga, but rather a continuation of it.

[@anthonyyoutubefan7567]

The funny thing, Thor, is: The possible tale you're spinning, sounds a good deal like what Favreau & Filoni are currently attempting with The Mandoverse. Which is why, if done well (for the most part, in spite of company interference), The Mandalorian Saga will end up becoming the proxy sequel/follow-up to George Lucas' Original Trilogy.

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

Sorry, but they'll get derailed by KK soon enough. They're already thinking about killing Mando series according to rumors.

[@anthonyyoutubefan7567]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о The rumor is: Season 4 of Mando (which has already been written by Favreau) would be turned in to a movie, with Dave Filoni's film being the second in a possible new trilogy of theatrical releases taking place in The Mandoverse. Disney/Lucasfilm Ltd. isn't cancelling ANYTHING Mandalorian/Baby Yoda/Grogu-related (esp. after the fiasco/P.R. nightmare of erasing Rangers Of The New Republic). They can't afford to. Plus, Skeleton Crew is part of The Mando Saga, so, by the end of 2023, SW audiences will have experienced 3 stories taking place at roughly the same time in The SWU: Mando (Season 3), Ahsoka, and Skeleton Crew, setting up much of the main elements for Filoni's adaptation of Heir To The Empire (as well as George Lucas' original concepts for the galaxy during the early years of The New Republic, with regard to its tense relationship with the various crime syndicates and The Pirate Nation). By all accounts, post-Indy 5, Kennedy's days are numbered...

[@duncanlutz3698]

Nope, Jake Milkdrinker was the inevitable result of JJ's setup in TFA. There is no GOOD explanation for why Luke would have ghosted everyone. Han even has a line in TFA about how "according to those who knew Luke best, he went off to find the first Jedi Temple." Excuse me? How is Han not among those who "know Luke best?" Han is Luke's best friend. Han is Luke's FAMILY. Han entrusted his only son to his brother-in-law for mentoring. How the fuck were they not in touch? Did Han never try and contact Luke on Life Day and ask how his kid is doing? And Leia: she doesn't have a damn clue either. Luke has been missing for several years at the start of TFA, and none of his friends and family have anything more to go off of other than third-hand rumors? How was he so estranged from his family that they didn't know what he was doing leading up to his disappearance? Were they just not apart of his life anymore that they couldn't so much as guess as to what happened? Again... rumors. Han is going off of RUMORS. There is no way Luke would disappear without a trace, without sending at least some word to reassure his loved ones. Bare minimum he'd have let them know he was still out there fighting the good fight and would return when needed. The only other explanation is that Luke was attacked and had to flee without being able to send word out... but even then, why wasn't someone in the OT cast familiar enough with Luke to be able to speculate on what happened? Why has it taken YEARS without them being able to find anything more than rumors? It's even worse in the extended materials. Leia knew that Lor San Teka had a map to the first Jedi Temple, and that LSK assumed Luke had gone there. LSK even offered the map to Leia years before TFA and she rejected it. Which even leads to another question... why now? Why did LSK offer the map again and why did Leia accept it now when she rejected it previously? TFO has been active for several years at this point and the Resistance apparently has known about SKB for some time... so why now? TFA is just such a fucking mess and I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of it's nonsensical mystery box bullshit, lack of world building, and general destruction of existing characters.

[@ColWalterRecords]

I enjoy the force awakens. The last Jedi and Rise Of Skywalker just ruined it.

[@CarolDowning-lm7fm]

Right you're going to blame the best movie in sequel trilogy that had so much promise. Total BS jj.

[@ColWalterRecords]

@@CarolDowning-lm7fm Haha, yeah. 7 gave us so much hype, and then 8 and 9 ruined all of it.

[@ColWalterRecords]

@@donaldjskywalker Every word of what you just said, was right.

[@TheVampirePriest]

I do agree that the force awakens should get more bling. It was just a bad film. It was a soft reboot and it’s kind of a slap in the face of the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. Especially the way they made Ray and what they did to Han Solo and his relationship with Kylo and his relationship with Leia. But I think that it is absolved of a lot of the blame because it was just a set up. It was back in the 80s and the 90s when right before summer break you’ll be set up with the next season of a TV show such as knight rider the A-Team quantum Leap and even friends. And then it was up to the following season from September to June to pick up on their cliffhanger run with it and make it something worth watching. In this case the force awakens was a set up and the other two movies were supposed to run with it. However the last Jedi not only dropped the ball but set the ball on fire and kicked it into a volcano while shouting obscenities at the ball and give me the ball the finger as it fell into the volcano. Then the rise of Skywalker was just a big middle finger through the fence. Not only did they not have a plan no you know what they did have a plan. And the plan was to destroy Star Wars. The plan was to Show that the fans who spent so much money, love, attention & passion For Star Wars, that we were nothing. We were less than nothing in the eyes of Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, and then you Lucas film. That are hard work, our money, our energy, and our passion or nothing and we meant nothing and we were nothing. That was the plan and the goal of the Disney Star Wars. They succeeded.

[@FunnyOne.Liners]

What kind of name is 'Snoke' anyways? It sounds like a shaggy digs name. "Here Snoke, here boy. That's a buddy."

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

It's a smoke and mirror. Freudian slip.

[@jedimario22]

I agree with this, I was way more mad at TFA because of the horrible revamp of the post OT timeline vs legends. It literally makes no sense!!!!!

[@TheBmb2jn]

Finn is the biggest reason why Force Awakens has a better reception then Last Jedi & Rise of Skywalker. JJ set up a beautiful arc about a defecting storm trooper. But then Rian Johnson turned him into a comic relief side Character. Then JJ had him yell "Rey!!!" Throughout Rise of Skywalker

[@BloodyInitiate]

TLJ was objectively bad on its own. I remember my main complaints with that movie had nothing to do with it following or breaking with any legacy. I hated the lack of communication as a common trope for creating conflict (Holdo could have told someone her plan instead of keeping them all in the dark. Luke could have told the resistance to evacuate while he distracted Kylo). I was annoyed we didn’t get to see Rey actually train to become a badass (I enjoy the parts of superhero movies where they learn their powers, screw stuff up along the way, and start getting into a groove). I DID hate the general disregard and vandalism for fictional world precedent, but I’m fairly accustomed to peering through a lot of that at the basic story structure and characters. The movie showed me that Star Wars was not in good hands, both in the sense that the new creators didn’t respect or value what came before, and ESPECIALLY in the sense that they just weren’t that competent at the craft of filmmaking. Rain Johnson makes goofy low budget films that break with their genre in a few ways. The trouble is he makes the same goofy low budget student films when he has a huge budget and no market incentive for his style. His work feels low budget and goofy even it isn’t supposed to and it’s filled with A-listers. I’ve enjoyed some of his other stuff, but he has one style and one trick. He doesn’t need hundreds of millions to do his thing, not every director is good for every kind of film.

[@ramons8908]

It could be because the people like me who watch Force Awakens at the cinema and walked out going "well, that sucked" gave up on Star Wars, it was after all, New Hope rebooted by the Disney Twilight fan club and a manlet who never seen a Mary Sue he didn't love. Those who actually watch Last Jedi were already invested in the sequel trilogy, so the movie copped a more visible backlash, even though it sold half what the previous one did. Like I said, people like me brought tickets to Force Awakens and were expecting something much better.

[@lukeluke333lukeluke]

The buzz for Force Awakens was crazy high. So many people appeared to say it was the best Star Wars movie since the originals. I was very excited to watch the movie and wasn't spoiled from any story points. While watching it. I was left with so much disappointment, I couldn't understand how so many people where praising the film. I had so many issues with the world building and repeating the same story beats. Any harsh critics of Star Wars where praising it. Ray and Finn where great new characters in the movie and had a lot of fun energy but the cracks of their character was also there and made only worse in Last Jedi. I blame Force Awakens just as much as I plan Rian for Last Jedi. Both ruined the Star Wars in many different ways from a story stand point.

[@leatherpastor]

I remember walking out of the theater after watching The Force Awakens grumbling that the New Republic was trashed, Han, Luke and Leia didn’t get get screen time together, and that a new Death Star like weapon was lame. I hated that the first movie of the sequel trilogy simply undid everything from the ending of Return of the Jedi off screen. I wished the next two movies would take the story in the right direction and make all of these flaws work out, but, alas it only got worse. That’s why I can’t allow these films to be part of my Star Wars canon. Return of the Jedi ends the Star Wars saga with Mandalorian being just an appendix.

[@Amoschp524]

The TFA felt like a bad rip off or bad FanFiction, but TLJ felt malicious not only against the fans but against TFA as well. The few interesting things from TFA like Snoke, Finn, and Po well all destroyed in a mean spirited way. TLJ was the final nail in the coffin that stripped away the grandiose and majesty of the Star Wars. I treated TFA like a bad EU novel and still held out hope that something good could still come out of the movies for Star Wars.

[@QuickPoker]

I’ve been sayin it for years. Stop blaming just Rian Johnson. Blame JJ, Rian, Kathleen and Bob Iger. Blame the prequel haters. Blame the anti George Lucas rhetoric! The jig was up after TFA. Not after TLJ. 🤌🏻

[@captaindc3889]

Maybe TFA should’ve been a complete story similar to A New Hope and Phantom Menace (Edit: I just watched the video)

[@DMisigoy]

For starters, we didn't actually know that all the Jedi were wiped out. For all we knew, Luke was training more students on Ahch-To to keep them hidden from Kylo & Snoke until they were ready. The decision to make it so that Luke had completely quit on the force and the galaxy was 100% Rian Johnson. JJ made plenty of mistakes and (like everyone else involved) missed the fact that the original trilogy characters are who we all wanted to see, but the fact is that in spite of all that, the overwhelming majority of us left TFA excited about what was coming next. How would Luke react to Anakin's lightsaber? "Who were Rey's parents" and "where did Snoke come from" were the subjects of countless theory videos for two solid years between the two movies. It was TLJ that destroyed that excitement completely and left the sequel trilogy with nothing to look forward to.

[@michaellane5381]

Agreed on both counts, 7 was terrible, but it had potential. That said, I think Irony of Ironies, JJ tried copying the wrong 80's movie if that was his concern with Luke... He should have copied Willow; Luke, the only Sorcerer with true magic in a tiny peaceful village sends a plucky girl on an adventure to save the Maguffin to be trained to be a space wizard, joined by the mysterious dark Princess(John Boyega would have been fine, just going with the analogy) FN and plucky Swashbuckler Poe they save the Baby Yoda from the evil darth Snoke through use of wits after consulting queen Leia and king Han Solo who dies aiding their first escape.

[@capitalcitygoofball1987]

I was one of those that walked out of TFA saying it sucked. Rehash, mystery box crap, nuked OT, and didn't really advance the seventh film with a satisfying story arc. Rian Johnson really didn't have much to work with, but he still took a giant dump on not only the franchise but TFA. JJ is largely an incompetent storyteller, while Rian just likes to burn shit to the ground because he didn't get enough hugs from mommy or something.

[@ordo_draigo_assault_ham]

TFA: Can I copy off you? ANH: Alright, just don’t make it obvious

[@andrewj1754]

I was always frustrated after TFA and agree that was the main problem. I had no idea where the republic went, what the first order was, and why this was the situation. It made no sense, and TLJ and ROS followed on with the same issues planted in TFA. TLJ could have been interesting if Luke was training a bunch of new Jedi, and then they fought the knights of Ren. With some old Luke doing crazy powers vs Snoak crazy powers while Rey and Kylo lead the rest of jedi and sith in lightsabee battles. Could have been quite interesting… hmmmm… if only.

[@MeltonECartes]

The Lucas films are correctly linked thematically, like any good screenplays. The Disney sequels have no theme.

[@anthonygvergara4778]

Hey Thor, what do you think of starkiller/galen Marek? His story, charcater and possibly one day maybe being in the new canon someday. I think he could fit in by tweaking some things and still making him powerful enough to fight Vader and give him a damn good fight but maybe not winning. I don't believe I've heard you talk about him so it'd be interesting to have a whole video on him

[@vnom84]

TFA happened because JJ is an incredibly salty Gen Xer who screeched and cried about how bad the prequels were to them and how George “raped thier childhood” so he wanted to disregard 1/2 of the franchise his bosses just paid billions of dollars for. Wouldn’t shock me in the least if JJ was one of those dudes anonymously shitposting on the early internet badmouthing Jake Lloyd.

[@ministryofwrongthink6962]

As someone who is very anti-sequel trilogy myself, I gave TF a pass initially because my biggest concern at the time, that Ray “looked” like a total Mary Sue, seemed like it would easily be explained away in the next movie. But then, when TLJ came out, not only did they double down on her be a Mary Sue… They absolutely quadruple down while also spitting on other aspects of established lore.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

I agree with the comment. After TLJ came out I found myself directing much of the blame for that film on TFA, because it did set up so much of the problems most of us had with the ST in general. It was full of just horrible premises and situations that were difficult to follow. Yes, there were things Johnson could have done better with the JJ mess but it was off to a bad start and then just got much worse all the way through TROS. To my thinking the biggest mistake was the lack of Anakin, who was the whole point and probably why George didn't make a ST. His story was complete. We all held out so much hope for it to come together after TFA but TBH much of what it set up I find to be horrible decisions to start with. I've never given JJ a pass on this. The whole team was to blame, not that it was much of a team in the first place given how they handled it.

[@nevasoba5953]

I think that is a great question. Mostly I think Thor answers it . TFA was very open ended so the story could've go ne almost anywhere from there. Also I think there was so much good hype following TFA , Disney hadn't yet all but destroyed their goodwill with the community.

[@nevasoba5953]

100% agree Ep 7 should've been a reunion of the original cast ,one last hurrah , that introduced the new characters and paid homage to the old. That would've left plenty of fertile ground for the new cast to develop over the next 2 films

[@jb512]

JJ was a dumpster fire of a director. I was one of the few people disappointed with TFA. I didn’t hate it, and I was still hopeful that it could set up a good trilogy. I was excited for the TLJ. But TFA was such a weak, play it safe film

[@BishopWalters12]

JJ deserves far more blame than Rian overall, He made the call to kill Han without having Han, Luke and Leia share screen time together which is one of the biggest failures in movie history and bringing Palpatine back was f@@@ing stupid.

[@reznik232]

Luke being hidden in miserable self exile was actually in GL's sequels treatment. Luke was training new Jedi students but after they were murdered (not sure by who) he was so destroyed he shut himself off from everything. He eventually came back to return to the ways of the Force and resume rebuilding the Jedi etc... The one big difference is that the whole story was played out on-screen which is very important.

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

How do you know GL played out the whole story on-screen?

[@reznik232]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о That was Luke's arc to be told over the three films. What details are known about GL's plans have been published in various places over the years. And while Luke, Leia and Han had relatively minor roles, almost cameos, they still had parts to play in the story. There's an excellent video here on KZbin by Bullets & Blockbusters which sums it all up. Well worth a look.

[@libertyprime2013]

JJ Abrams chose not to use the EU. He choose to made Luke go to exile, undo the Jedi order, destroy the republic, and reset the galaxy to be like the OT. People forget that. It’s soulless.

[@gambit8766]

I still haven't watched "Episode 9", could whenever I feel like it, but I refuse, I don't want to give it even the support of even the time of my day.

[@timidwolf]

When my friends and I saw TFA they asked me (as the biggest SW fan of our group) what I thought, and it took me a moment before saying "It depends heavily on what they do with the next one!" because of all the loose ends and the unexplained detachment from where we last saw the universe. It was since that movie came out that I noticed how empty that movie actually was, and how talentless a hack Abrams is. I recalled similar dissatisfaction from other projects of his before and then I saw his TED talk about his "Mystery Box" and it all came together, he tries to make his films seem mysterious by having all these questions but he never bothers coming up with any answers for them.

[@libertyprime2013]

I’d argue the Force Awakens despite being the best received deserves the most blame for the sequels failure. It was a very rocky foundation. People shouldn’t be looking at a movie and thinking it was “meh” but the sequels will be great! It needs to stand in its own and it never has. It’s a lazy rehash of the original trilogy and completely indifferent to the prequels and EU. And that’s the main problem. JJ’s laziness. JJ Abrams could’ve used as much or little of the EU as he wanted but he choose not too because he’s lazy and didn’t want to waste time doing basic research. Even if he was going to ignore the EU entirely he should’ve still looked at the EU to see what worked and what didn’t. The root problem is JJ couldn’t be bothered to put in effort to make a sequel and did what was easiest. That’s why he also put Luke into exile without considering the ramifications or why we didn’t get one last hoorah from the original cast together. JJ choose to use a mystery box because it’s a lazy plot device and forces other future writers to do all the real work. In short JJ Abrams doomed the sequels because of his laziness and he was hoping to ride the coattails of future writers and directors. He was exposed when the last Jedi had kickback and when IX was somehow even worse.

[@ninjaishproductions2.053]

Thanks for your response Thor! I definitely agree with much of what you were saying. But I want to clarify my point a little bit. I think TFA had really bad ideas that were built upon by TLJ with more ideas that are bad in the context of the rest of the saga, but, in my opinion, good if you can imagine 7 and 8 existing in total isolation from everything else. As for the Luke stuff, I agree that they should have done a much different story for him if we consider 1-6. But if you look at 7 and 8 in a vacuum and ignore the other movies entirely, there would be no reason to be upset with the choices they made for Luke's character. We only don't like him being that way in TLJ because we do know who he was in the other movies. My point very much only works if you are able to completely pretend that 1-6 don't exist and then consider 7-8. But where you and I definitely agree is that they could have made a sequel to TFA that works a bit better in the overall saga as well. BUT at the same time I don't think TFA works in the overall saga itself. I think the fact that I think the trilogy started off so poorly makes it so easy for me to see the last jedi as a standalone fanfilm. Sorry for such a long and disorganized comment. I just had a lot to say and my thoughts were very jumbled. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[@GusMcGuire]

The reason JJ gets a lot of the blame is because TFA made really vague promises which - amazingly - he managed not to deliver on in TROS. The reason Rian Johnson gets a lot of the blame is because TLJ didn't respect what came before....or after. Their movies were cluttered with excess to such an extent that they're basically the "Spinal Tap" of sci-fi. Everything is turned up to 11. Starkiller Base one-shots the New Republic with a single blast. Kylo Ren wipes out ALL the New Jedi Order in one night. The Holdo Manoeuvre destroys ALL the New Order fleet simultaneously. Rey becomes a Jedi in superfast time. Rey kills three tie fighters with one shot from the Millennium Falcon. The New Order star destroyers can now destroy entire planets with their Death Star guns. The secret (and unfeasibly large) fleet of Palpatine stretches as far as the eye can see. The Resistance fleet numbers in the thousands. Palpatine is all the Sith. Rey is all the Jedi. I just want a Star Wars universe that has realistic boundaries and isn't poorly written fan-fiction with copious amounts of CGI vomitted across the screen.

[@chrisbenson6753]

The problem with the sequel trilogy is that in it, nothing matters. In Star Wars, EVERYTHING matters