Why do so many think the Jedi are the bad guys?

[@theimperialist2686]

The sith of the prequels, Plageuis and Palpatine manipulated events that would ensure the people of the galaxy would have anti-Jedi sentiments, on a much larger galaxy size scale. Of course there was anti-Jedi sentitment before, but from the prequels it seems to have increased it on a larger scale. By having the Jedi lead the Clone army into battle, their flaws were exposed more, and Palpatine manipulated it to seem like the Jedi held a lot of responsibility for the Clone Wars breaking out.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

I completely agree. Plus, as much as people want to say the fall was their own doing, they forget the Clones vs Confederacy was designed to spread and kill them. I know being so closely knit with the Republic created a blindspot, their clones were the timebomb. Good point you made.

[@TheRecklessGamerINC]

It seems like as we learn more and more about the prequel era we get exposed to all the propaganda that all the citizens of the galaxy were exposed to at the time. The Jedi weren’t perfect but they were still fighting for the good of the Galaxy against the Sith and Darkside.

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

Sometimes fans will intake imperfection by a person or group and process it as them therefore being pure evil. It’s really strange and annoying.

[@Jedishill680]

@@teleportedbreadfor3days I’ve seen too many KZbin videos where the republic not being perfect or the Jedi not being perfect justifies the empire and Sith. It’s so weird, it’s like stating that since modern democratic governments having flaws justifies dictatorship.

[@emberfist8347]

@@teleportedbreadfor3days Yeah I had an argument about someone giving Dumbledore that treatment. Of course he ignored some important context to Dumbledore's actions in the books most notably the last book spelling the flaw that nearly undid his plan to destroy Voldemort for good was his compassion for Harry which kept him from revealing the full role Harry had in that plan.

[@matthewk4912]

@@teleportedbreadfor3days Yep it's strange that they think of imperfect good guys as pure evil, but if the villain has one redeeming quality then they're somehow good.

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

@@matthewk4912 I can only explain half of that, that villain redemption is more plainly seen and explained. The rest is confusing, but I can say for sure that it’s less about what they’re ‘thinking’ and more about ‘registering’ imperfection as evil. I still don’t get why. I can’t even ask myself why this happens to some. Like, if I asked myself; wondering how much people are actually paying attention, that wouldn’t feel like the correct thing to question. It’s so weird. If anything, the Jedi making mistakes on occasion feels better, because it’s realistic and shows a lesson that nobody’s perfect, that everybody makes mistakes and the incredible benefits and importance of learning from mistakes to emerge better. The Jedi aren’t an ordinary organization. In fact George Lucas intended them to be different from heroes, to be more; To be Jedi. As a side note, it’s something Disney will never understand or they’d never have considered the Acolyte, where the Jedi are gonna apparently be the antagonists, yet it sounds less like an unreliable perspective and more like what’s apparently supposed to be genuine, dishonest behavior, something the Order is supposed to be *well* beyond, certainly what was described, at least.

[@silverscion2144]

I think the nuance between flawed and inherently evil is sadly lost on many. The Jedi Order, like any well-meaning institution throughout our own history, consists of good people that are capable of compromising their beliefs or losing their way when placed in difficult circumstances. I’ve always seen the Jedi as the “good guys,” but I also like my good guys to have shortcomings that must be faced in some form or another. To me, the Jedi of the Prequel Era are a great depiction of this.

[@TheMeta141]

Obi-Wan and Yoda going into exile and letting the Empire rule for the next 20 years is a good show of that. you can make the argument they were wrong or right. and both are true. COULD they have helped? maybe. could that have gotten them killed and left Luke with no teacher? yes. ambiguity. i LOVE that in a story.

[@Metal0sopher]

Because people expect perfection out of good guys, one mistake and they are disowned. On the other hand a bad guy can kill millions, but if he repents and apologizes, than he becomes a hero and is worshiped as a God. Just look at Vader. He killed billions, but he felt sorry at the end, so now it's all good. But the Jedi council make a couple of errors, under heavy manipulation and infiltration by evil, and they can not be forgiven. Sadly this is even more true in real life. Just look at politics and society. Good people who want to do good for the world, but may say something weird, are vilified, while corrupt rich scumbags that destroy millions of lives, destroy social platforms, but say a couple of nice fun things, make empty promises, people literally worship and adore them. And want to give them more power and more money out of their own pockets. Human simp psychology is pretty fuked up.

[@Jedishill680]

@@Metal0sopher that is a real problem these days, audiences are too swayed by bad people in fiction being remorseful about their actions and unfairly judging good people who try their best. Mace windu is a better person than Anakin because he never killed children. Whatever issues Anakin had with the Jedi nothing justifies that

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

I agree. I don't know why the fact that mistakes don't make one's morals ambiguous, having high expectations for oneself, and the capacity to care about people you don't know personally is lost on the fan base. Emberfist brings up a fantastic point that they are trying to help people on a larger scale (though we could argue that being closely knit with the Republic made there fall easier). In my opinion, if the force lives in all things they are doing serving the force by respecting and caring for people. The Jedi care about the lives of those they don't even know bcoz BOTH some people are just that caring and to achieve harmony. The force wants it.

[@JDog2656]

@@Metal0sopher In Anakins defense, he was pretty much stuck in the hole he put himself in, as well as the Emperor. Palpatine would gladly blow up as many planets as he could to maintain his empire. Also, it wasn't Vader who ordered Alderaan to be destroyed. It's one of those situations where when guys like Anakin and Dooku crossed a line, they felt there was no going back and could only sink further down into the darkside. As opposed to Sidious who has no problem or remorse for anything he does. People always talked about destroying Vader, but never Sidious. He was basically his lapdog, doing his bidding because there was nothing except the dark, until Luke did what no one else was willing to do: See the man beneath the mask. But you are correct that people hound the good guys for their mistakes instead of giving them the same or more mercy than the supposed villains.

[@frozenandchosen]

Too many people mistake the Jedi as being flawed for them being bad people/villains in the story

[@jaysgamingcorner8539]

So true, the Jedi and the Republic had gotten too complacent from being at peace for centuries. The Jedi became too rigid in their views and The Republic's corruption seeped into every aspect of their politics. I would argue that will always happen to political systems, but that doesn't make the Jedi the bad guys. The alternative is the Sith/Empire/dictatorship; how'd that work out?

[@bloodysimile4893]

People will pay attention and never forget the one bad thing you did, and ignore every good thing you have done before and after. It a shame when people judge people of the past throughout history as if they would do better, ignoring the whole context, and situation of the period which people had to live in.

[@jaysgamingcorner8539]

@@bloodysimile4893 It's arrogance and hubris run amok.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

It plays directly into modern identity politics. If you mess up, you're evil. If you make mistakes, you can't be forgiven. If you wronged someone, it was intentionally malicious

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

​@@Captain_Insano_nomercyI was just thinking about Rey. Maybe the writers have this mindset of flaw = bad guy / no flaw = good guy. Perhaps Rey was written without any flaws because the writers intended the audience to see her as a goodie good good. For those that don't understand the complexity of StarWars Rey is seen as good while the rest of the Jedi are seen as bad, while those that understand the complexity of StarWars see Rey as a mary Sue, while we see the Jedi as good but with issues, like losing sight of what they were supposed to do. I saw transformers rise of the beasts, and like the Jedi, Optimus prime lost sight of what he was supposed to do

[@astarteswillum5259]

I always saw them as more flawed than bad.

[@GrievousReborn]

Good but flawed

[@ElGrabnar]

Well they are also misguided because they have Sidious manipulating shit to cloud their main way of divining a course of action, the kid taking thing is basically the only indefensible part of the Jedi I can think of.

[@Phizzo4real]

​@ElGrabnar The Jedi DID NOT kidnap kids.... the parents or caregiver agree to have their kids be trained in the way of the force by the order... Trust me if Jedi were kidnapping kids, a Rebellion would have happened earlier

[@Coolerranch1]

That's what Palpatine wants you to think!🪤

[@jamestolbert1856]

@@Phizzo4realI saw a video similar to that. The Jedi didn’t kidnap, if the caregiver refused, they allow them to stay with them

[@RedRock22Productions]

Another point about the Chance Cube, the novelization states that Watto's was weighted to always land on red. So, Qui Gon either deduced or had knowledge through the Force that Watto had a loaded dice and had the dice land on blue. Watto tried to cheat, and Qui Gon put a stop to it.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Wish that had been mentioned or made more clear in the movie itself. That's something that never sat well with me. Why leave Anakin's mother there and never bother attempting to free her in the ten years that passed? I can only assume they were incapable of understanding the effect that would have on Anakin or wanted it to be a test of some sort.

[@Lorekeeper72]

@@CrazyxEnigmaI suspect Qui-Gon would have done exactly that but I honestly can't blame the Jedi too much for that; most if not all of them were trained in the Temple from a very early age with no knowledge of or connection to their parents so its entirely possible they didn't fully realize just how damaging to Anakin her continued slavery would be.

[@danielkimoto1008]

Watto’s chance cube is rigged; hence watto being mad when it landed where it wasn’t rigged to land.

[@viniciusmagalhaes4558]

Another thing I believe causes a lot of problems and leads many people to see the Jedi as evil, is that they misunderstand the Jedi way as that of "having no feelings", and people simply can't stop having feelings. But in my opinion, the Jedi were never about not having feelings, but were closer to Stoicism, as in the Greek philosophy of Stoicism. Feelings are inevitable, including pain, angst and anger too, but you don't need to let those feelings control you, you can feel them but still choose to do the right thing, in spite of the pain and hurt you carry. However, I think even that sounds unbelievable to most people.

[@davidanderson4748]

Lucas ruined his own concept in the prequels. The Force runs strong in families, so let’s make the Jedi not have families. The Jedi were guardians of peace and justice - sheriffs essentially - so they all dress like moisture farmers. The Force is an energy that surrounds us and binds us, but really it just depends on the bacteria in your blood. The prequels were like some wine wrote out a first draft and with no feedback or even checking with continuity, they shot them.

[@elalala576]

stoicism is bullshit to begin with so

[@vonglover7859]

Only a lord of the Sith knows the Jedis weakness. Sidious took their greatest strengths & used it to defeat them. The fake war threw them off their center,a Jedi is more powerful when he or she is at peace. The Separatist agenda led by the former Jedi Dooku,served to villify the Jedi not only in the eyes of the people,but servants of the Order themselves. Krell,Barriss Offee,& Anakin Skywalker are the extreme examples. When discussing the fall of the Jedi,context is a crucial element in revealing exactly how,& why. On a surface level,one can say their rigid ways led to the Jedis fall,& conversely one can also say the Jedis ways led to a thousand generations of peace. The undeniable truth is Darth Sidious orchestrated the most evil,deceptive & manipulative plan ever devised in the galaxy to destroy the Jedi.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

That is right. Thank you

[@davidanderson4748]

Eh, or it was just that the prequels were terribly written and not well thought out.

[@vonglover7859]

@@davidanderson4748 wether well written or not,Palpatine is heralded as one of the greatest villains in cinema

[@davidanderson4748]

@@vonglover7859 Only because the actor did such a screen chewingly wonderful job with it!

[@vonglover7859]

@@davidanderson4748 That's why he's the best hands down my friend. And it's not even close unless you have a villain in mind who's better...

[@Luks2820]

People these days like to be edgy. Just see people talking about Batman, it's the same thing. You would think Joker is just a poor misunderstood crazy person and Batman is the real villain.

[@damiantirado9616]

Nope it has nothing to do with being edgy. It’s simply the truth. Any person who somehow thinks the Jedi where “good” is simply delusional

[@weezyslob]

This. Plus on top of it this generation doesn’t understand nuance and context. Cancel Batman! Tell the wrong joke they don’t like, canceled! The Jedi didn’t let Anakin marry, canceled! The Jedi weren’t bad, they were just too stuck to their code, and they were played like a fiddle by Palpatine. That doesn’t make them bad, just makes them misguided or off the right course. Anakin slaughtered children, THAT’S bad.

[@echo5327]

@@damiantirado9616id have to disagree. I’d say the Jedi did evil things like taking children from their parents, but on the whole when they were acting as keepers for the peace they made the galaxy a better place, and certainly helped prevent the rise of sith empire

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

Some people call Batman an egotist yet want him to be like the Punisher

[@scottmatznick3140]

Eh... The more I find myself around the general public, the more I side with Joker.

[@greensmadden13]

It's ironic. People seem to be reading whatever their understanding of religion happens to be onto the Jedi rather than trying to understand what George was going after. The "Jedi are bad" part of the fanbase tends to relate more to the Empire's non-spiritual way of thinking, which George has been implying since the seventies is fundamentally mistaken.

[@ElGrabnar]

Odd that those people also never realize the enemy was also "religious" as both their highest offices are held by Palpy and Vader

[@DeeperIntoTheUnknown]

@@ElGrabnar yeah but not as a whole. The Jedi are basically monks, the Empire isn't something religious by itself

[@xrstevenson]

​@@DeeperIntoTheUnknownwhile that is true. The reality is the Empire was just the Sith Empire without all the Sith Force users, but the Sith beliefs were the core tenats of Palpatine's Empire

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Everything is warped under the lens of identity politics. Good is bad, bad is good, competency is assigned to morally correct characters, evil characters are naturally inferior. It's a rat maze

[@tesnacloud]

I don't think a person's religious views have a lot to do with their thoughts on the Jedi. Mine certainly don't.

[@jimluebke3869]

"People don't have ideas; ideas have people" - Carl Jung I've always thought that this was what the Whills were all about, and the Force mediated that.

[@HighHeelKnight]

I assumed that Watto's dice were loaded. That's why he was so surprised and angry to loose. Qui-Gon cheating was to counter Watto's cheating. 🤔

[@jeremyfields9009]

Lucas said the reason he had the Jedi act like this in the prequels was because he needed all the governing organizations(Jedi, senate) to be bureaucratic. That’s how corruption from commerce is able to take advantage. It’s really not that deep.

[@Jedishill680]

Id like to add aside from Anakins problems with the Jedi, being a Jedi requiring sacrifice of personal desires drives people up a wall. People can’t get over the fact that the price of having a lightsaber on your belt is being normal.

[@nichlaschristensson1055]

I think it's a bit understandable that the Jedi lost there ways. The purpose of maintaining balance was not "needed" anymore, they had defeated the Sith. So they protected/helped the Republic in other ways. That was probably what the Sith thought would happen after a few generations.

[@emberfist8347]

Except they were still maintaining balance. Darth Plaugeis established pretty every every event leading up to and including the Clone Wars where the Jedi got involved was caused by the Sith acting behind the scenes. So in a way their purpose didn't change.

[@Lorekeeper72]

Darth Bane certainly thought they would get bogged down in Republic beuracracy and nonsense, he says as much in the second book of his trilogy.

[@ThreeFoldPath]

For people who grew up with the prequels they, understandably, resonate mostly with Anakin as the main character and so they see the Jedi through his eyes. Many see Anakins subjective personal experience as fact regardless of all the other Jedi who lived by those rules for generations. The way of being a Jedi of serving the force is not an easy one, so even if the Council had protected Shmi, Anakin would not have learned to manage his emotions and attachments and would be led down the dark path for another reason. Where the Jedi failed was not that they did not protect Anakin for hardship but that they did not teach him to manage his emotions before training him sending him out into the world.

[@kingofhearts3185]

That's exactly the problem, they didn't teach anything. Just repeated dogmatic codes and empty platitudes they didn't understand. They served the republic over the force. That's why they had to be destroyed and rebuilt.

[@TheMeta141]

and that in itself is because THEY don't have that knowledge or fundamental understanding. in so many ways so many times obvious things we would know needed support or counseling the jedi just wouldn't

[@El-Sol]

@@TheMeta141 Do we know that? How many school shootings do we have in the US? How many starving people live on this planet? How many drug addicts are needing help? Most people just decide to ignore it. It is much easier to blaim the ones who try and fail, isn't it?

[@TheMeta141]

@@El-Sol there's a difference between being indifferent and being ignorant. we KNOW they're suffering. we just don't do anything about it. the Jedi didn't. or did you forget when Anakin begged Yoda for help stopping someone he cared about from dying and Yoda told him to be glad they died?

[@El-Sol]

@@TheMeta141 So, don't knowing that someone is suffering is worse than knowing it but decide to not do anything? Are you serious? Also you don't understand the message Yoda wants to teach Anakin. Sometimes you have to accept the fate because you can't change it. Anakins vision doesn't told him why or how Padme is dying, so there is no obvious solution. Also visions can be misguiding and sometimes it only come true because you want to stop it. If Anakin would have followed the Jedi teachings, Padme would not have be dead by end of ROTS.

[@Metal0sopher]

Because people expect perfection out of good guys, one mistake and they are disowned. On the other hand a bad guy can kill millions, but if he repents and apologizes, than he becomes a hero and is worshiped as a God. Just look at Vader. He killed billions, but he felt sorry at the end, so now it's all good. But the Jedi council make a couple of errors, under heavy manipulation and infiltration by evil, and they can not be forgiven. Sadly this is even more true in real life. Just look at politics and society. Good people who want to do good for the world, but may say something weird, are vilified, while corrupt rich scumbags that destroy millions of lives, destroy social platforms, but say a couple of nice fun things, make empty promises, and people literally worship and adore them. And want to give them more power and more money out of their own pockets. Human simp psychology is pretty fuked up.

[@El-Sol]

Sad but true.

[@futureprimitivepast3044]

They were never bad. Lucas would really hate that his heroes are somehow seen as the villain. The Sith are one note for a reason: They’re to be the bad guys. The Jedi always fight on the side of the people: Republic, Rebellion, and Resistance.

[@danielvitale7788]

I hate it when people say the sith arent bad guys, its just the jedi attack them because they use the dark side. Their code demands to achieve power, at any cost, that usually means projecting and hoarding power over others, which is contrary to the Jedi beliefs in freedom (queue Optimus Prime quote here), I never thought of the Jedi fighting the Sith simply because they use the Force differently, its because they are fundamentally opposed in their goals

[@Lorekeeper72]

@@danielvitale7788I can't remember which channel did it but one of the Star Wars youtube channels discussed if SIdious being Sith was enough to arrest him. What he concluded was that being Sith was not against Republic law but the various actions that Sith routinely perform, including murder, torture, sentient experimentation, bribery, dealing in illicit goods etc. were all illegal under Republic law which meant that being a Sith was technically illegal since their common practices were.

[@aydenbonnet9630]

​@danielvitale7788 Which is just fundamentally untrue even when observing the Jedi's actions. The Nightsister clan is the perfect example. Here is an institution that is not at all hiding the fact they use the Dark Side of the force, and not only do they co-exist with the Jedi Order. Their relationship is not even aggressive. When Savage Opress first emerges and kills two Jedi, the Order doesn't even jump to the conclusion that the Nightsisters are responsible; instead seeking information from them in stopping Opress.

[@futureprimitivepast3044]

@@Lorekeeper72 You do realize they weren’t arresting Sidious because he was a Sith, right?

[@futureprimitivepast3044]

@@aydenbonnet9630 Im not sure I fully get your point. Can you explain a little more what you mean?

[@NoahWhan1]

Thor has the most sensible grasp of the force why doesn't this guy work for Star Wars?

[@lasercraft32]

Even if he did work for Star Wars, Disney's executive higher-ups would likely restrict his ability to even help much.

[@Elemento0420]

This thinking is also happening with the Rebels. People thinking the Rebels are terrorists and the Empire did nothing wrong. Despite Lucas calling the empire's soldiers, stormtroopers, a title for nazis, and them blowing up a planet. They try to add too much gray in a black and white narrative.

[@crusader2112]

I like some Imperial characters, but Palestine, Tarkin, and the Empire are clearly evil. That being said I'm still not a fan of the rebels because there is a good Empire in Legends: The Fel Empire, now that's where any Imperial fans should look towards. 😎👍

[@TheMeta141]

for the most part the Empire was evil absolutely. but considering just how BIG it was the idea that there weren't ordinary people just doing their job or who genuinely believed they were good is naïve. i do agree Disney has leaned WAY too far into that

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Ugh, Empire apologists are contrarians for the sake of being contrarians. Or actually believe a fascist xenophobic government is good, that's distinctly worse.

[@ertymexx]

In an era of growing fascism the rebels will seem to be in the wrong. Sad.

[@ertymexx]

@@TheMeta141 hence Andor. Great series in that respect.

[@beardofnursing8602]

This probably isn't what Lucas was drawing inspiration from, but having grown up in a Christian household, I read a lot about the interactions between Jesus and the Pharisees. I might be projecting my Christian upbringing on SW, but I see some parallels between the council and the Pharisees. The Pharisees were obsessed with following God's law and went as far as to create new laws that weren't part of the original Torah (or God's law) to serve as an extra step to prevent themselves from breaking God's law. They were so caught up in the minor laws (or code if you will) that they missed the point and cared more about protecting their image as pious people and judging people who broke the law. Jesus had to remind them that the summary of God's law was loving God and loving others. They may have been technically following the law, but they weren't honoring the spirit of the law. And even though there were prophecies of a savior, the Pharisees were unable to recognize Jesus as the Savior when he was standing right in front of them, again because they were too caught up in their laws and codes to see the truth. Sorry, not trying to preach or evangelize here, just pointing out some similarities from the perspective I grew up with. Might be part of Lucas's inspiration and maybe not. It's obvious he drew on both Eastern and Western religion and philosophy in these stories.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

I'll admit to finding the idea of the jedi always acting on the will of the force confusing. We know the force isn't literally telling Jedi what it wants done in any direct way. What's to stop qui gon or anyone else from interpreting it wrong? And whats stopping the force to want something that isn't morally apt? You've mentioned the dark side being more of a separate thing from the proper force but i'm not sure that distinction is as wide as we can be comfortable with as their clearly connected to the same esoteric energy.

[@seanmurphy7011]

1) I can't decide if George Lucas is a master of subtext, or if he is really bad at it. 2) At this point a Dark Lord of the Sith had been subverting the Jedi Order, the Dark Side had crept in on cat's paws, and Yoda didn't realize that until EPIII but it was happening before The Phantom Menace. 3) 6:48 That is not even remotely what Lucas was trying to convey.

[@Doop3r]

All I can say for myself is that before the Prequels I always thought of the Jedi as wandering heroes to a degree, space ronin. They went where they were needed. I never envisioned a council as such, more like legendary masters and scholars like Yoda and Obi Wan where the Force would guide the Force sensitive to or vice verse. Then when I saw the Prequels I was confronted with something not like that at all and honestly something unsettling, especially after years of the OT and a lot of the books. I wasn't expecting these heroes of legend to be so cold and detached. They felt more in line with Vader in terms of the feelings they gave off. And honestly with every interaction the Jedi had with Anakin, save for Qui Gon, they bordered on cruel at times. Then there was Jedis essentially being trained from birth on, forbidding attachments like a spouse...it began to feel more like a cult than a group of legendary heroes. It put me off and honestly, still kind of does. I still think to this day it wasn't so much the failure of Obi Wan, but the failure of the entire Jedi system he put so much faith in that created Vader. The biggest surprise was that more Jedi didn't fall to the Dark Side. To me at least.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

I wonder how different the Jedi would be had Lucas written their history and lore in detail when he was working on the OT.

[@drachenzahne9262]

The Jedi feeling like a cult...yeah, upon revisiting the prequel stories, they absolutely do feel rather cultish in how they operate. Granted, I still believe they were trying to do what was right, but they way they operated felt, as you put it, cold and detached. I haven't read the EU stories, but I've heard that when Luke wanted to reestablish the Jedi, he was the exact opposite with the attachment stuff, which I think is a big step in the right direction.

[@jonsnow1994]

We’re the Jedi evil? No. Were they deeply flawed. Absolutely.

[@AnyoneCanBeNerdy]

Not evil to take command of child soldier slaves? That sounds pretty textbook evil to me.

[@StephanePoirierGaming]

@@AnyoneCanBeNerdy Child soldiers? Are you referring to the clones? Or the Padawans that got dragged into the war? As for the Clones, plenty of blame to go around. The republic/senate could have easily emancipated them with a stroke of a pen but did not. Palpatine and Dooku who had them created soley as canon fodder, and to murder Jedi - who the vast majority did not lead Clone Troopers in battle - as for the Jedi taking command of the Clone Troopers with one exception I always saw it as them acting out from a sense obligation for their rescue in Geneosis. As for Padawans - many real world religions have in the past and some to this day started training at a young age - Ahsoka Tano is the easiest example of a 'child' soldier. But is she? technically speaking, yes by virtue of being fourteen when she becomes Anakin's Padawan. Does he take anything? Is she a slave? No. Yet who's fault is the war? Once again we go back to Palpatine and Dooku. But ultimately I blame Feloni who could have had be. Should Anakin have withdrawn from combat duties for a year or two for his Padawan to grow up? Yes. Do I fault him for it? Yes. Were all the Jedis evil because of this? No.

[@AnyoneCanBeNerdy]

@StephanePoirierGaming the fact that you have multiple options to pick from should kinda prove the point. In this case i mean the clones primarily. And I never said there weren't other hands equally as guilty. Palpatine loaded the gun, the senate put it on the table, but at the end of the day, the jedi decided to pull the trigger. I refuse to believe that beings that are supposed to be the beacons of justice and goodness of the story would stoop to that. The first battle of Geneosis could be the only acceptable time it happened as the majority of the jedi would've had no idea what they were, apart from soldiers on their side. Every jedi general or Commander from that battle onward is compliment in the act by being a part of it. At the time of the clone wars there were no good people running the galaxy, on either side. On one hand: child slave soldiers and a "democracy" that was unable to serve large portions of the people they governed, let alone do it effectively. And on the other side, capitalist banking practices taken to the extreme plunging world's into so much debt the entire planet turns into a 3rd world country within a matter of weeks.

[@StephanePoirierGaming]

@@AnyoneCanBeNerdy First of all I was not putting options on the table but asking what you meant by child soldier slaves. Secondly in your last paragraph are we talking Star Wars or the real world. I ask because you say the world as opposed to the Republic. Thirdly in regards to your second paragraph. I certainly agree that the Senate as an institution did not live up to its ideals. As for the Jedi who lead Clones in battle - not good? I.E. meaning evil. How? Read the following: "We are not going to lead adult, superbly trained soldiers - some of whom saved our lives - because the Senate is not emancipating them." When you say it out loud It just doesn't seem to serve the greater good. And how did the Jedi decide to pull the trigger? At worse they were swept up in events orchestrated by Sheeve Palpatine and decide to put off complaining about the Clones being slaves until later - slaves of the Republic, not the Jedi by the way. At best they just did not consider the Clones slaves, just men. In all likely hood they were just swept up by the events. That does not make them bad, let alone evil, just overwhelmed. Ultimately we will have to agree to disagree. I believe the Jedi Council could have done better but that is a far step from being evil. The Council was flawed.

[@questionmaker5666]

@@AnyoneCanBeNerdy The Clones were going to be sent to battle no matter what. At least, with the Jedi leading them, they would have a far greater chance of survival and emancipation once the war had ended. The other option would have seen even more Clones die and even more suffering. How would the latter be the 'good' thing to do?

[@lordcarnorjax8599]

Another misconception I see a lot is that the Jedi were bad because they "stole" force sensitive children which is blatantly untrue, they always asked permission of the parents. In the EU having your child trained to be a Jedi was seen to be a very prestigious and noble thing to do. It's like this whole non sense of grey Jedi, there's a lot of fans that don't understand the force properly.

[@hockey1973]

Exactly! All the parents had to do was say "no" and the Jedi order went "ok, have a nice life!" and went on their merry way. The Order was completely voluntary. Anyone could leave at anytime and some did. It's also worth noting that in universe MOST people in the Star Wars universe lived their whole lives without ever seeing a Jedi once and most of what they knew was hearsay, and if in universe THEY perhaps thought the Jedi kidnapped children. . .well you can see how easy Palpatine swayed them.

[@Lorekeeper72]

@@hockey1973 Just make those rumors more common and mix in instances like what happened between Senator Vidar Kim and his Jedi son Ronhar (Jedi Kim only met with Senator Kim because he was a Senator) and its easy to see why people would believe the Jedi steal kids and indoctrinate them.

[@davidanderson4748]

That was just another stupid decision Lucas made when he did a terrible job writing the prequels. We have to have that “he’s too old to train” line as a call back, but he didn’t think it through because Anakin is 9, so now we have to embrace the stupid idea that Jedi are trained from birth. Poor writing is to blame. Star Wars ended in 1983.

[@Allronix]

About the "but they asked permission" - the Jedi recruiter has a deadly weapon, mind melting sorcery, the backing of his powerful organization (and no accountability to anyone aside from his organization), every level of government in his back pocket and even a law on he books (per the Jedi Path) that he technically doesn't NEED to ask permission, he has the legal right to take custody, regardless of your wishes. It's just gonna go smoother if you are convinced (or "convinced") to see it his way. Even if we're dealing with a paragon of ethics, that's horribly imbalanced in his favor. And Force help you if we get the guy with the ethical standards of Pong Krell or Jorus C'Both.

[@elalala576]

just saw the acolyte so that's clearly not what they were doing also they cant stop covering up their crimes till their last breath so yikes

[@amarcellus1714]

Luke trained his Jedi to be different in the EU. The new jedi order members were encouraged to go out into the galaxy and interact with the average citizen not just when someone needed protecting. Luke allowed marriage, personal belongings etc. Some Jedi didn't even live at the temple and had their own apartments on Coruscant. In other words, the New Jedi Order were more relatable to the average citizen. That is until Jacen Solo went Sith bad and gave the Jedi a bad rep....again. 😅

[@mazkeraid4039]

Because Jacen was turned into by the likes of the alien bird.

[@ParagonGoetia]

Id recommend watching Gundam IBO, where Ghjallahorn is essentially the Republic with their fighters being the equivalent of the Jedis in the political structure, they became complacent and lost the way to their own creed. Something being a law doesnt mean its right. Their downfall also came with a hate to them from the public, its part of why for palpatine took power so easily. They had failed the people they receited so much about protecting.

[@BulletRain100]

I find the turn against the Jedi of the Prequels in the fan base is due to a larger shift in the culture and the move away from the Knights of the Old Republic towards The Clone Wars cartoon. We love in a much more cynical age where people don't trust in large institutions anymore. We largely assume organized religion and political institutions are unavoidably corrupt. There is also the trend in society where any action that impedes the ability of a person to live how they want and how they express themselves is one of the worst things a person could do. I grew up with the KOTOR games and the comic in that same setting and a brilliant aspect of those stories is how the flaws of the Jedi then resulted in a rigid code in response. The more lose standards fans of today advocate for today were tried in the past and resulted in thousands of Jedi falling to the Dark Side. The Prequel movies themselves show the wisdom in those strict rules because it is breaking those rules that produced the weakness in Anakin Skywalker that resulted in his fall. It also must be noted that The Clone Wars cartoon did not paint the Jedi in a positive light and showes the rigid rules as the direct cause to the fall of the Jedi.

[@emberfist8347]

Thank this was the kind of response I was looking for. I have been discussing for years issues like the rule against attachments were necessary because of past events. I even pointed the people acting like the rule was wrong because Anakin fell don't seem to realize it was created because of Jedi like Anakin.

[@Lorekeeper72]

I would argue both approaches are incorrect and more refinement was needed to prevent what happened in the Prequels. That being said, I do think there is one thing the Jedi could have done to fix the problem and that was move off of Coruscant and become seperate from the Republic. In my opinion, what went wrong with the Jedi was not that their code and traditions were too rigid but that they were far too focused on political matters within the already corrupt and decaying Republic when they should have been meditating on the Force.

[@emberfist8347]

@@Lorekeeper72 Except that is saying the Jedi should have been doing nothing while the galaxy suffers. That is actually evil.

[@Lorekeeper72]

@@emberfist8347 Not so, its entirely possible for the Jedi to do good and help the galaxy without having to be subserviant to the Republic. They did it before its just working with and for the Republic was simpler and it could be argued that the New Sith and Brotherhood of Darkness was their fault so having oversight appealed to some of them especially if it repaired the lost trust.

[@BulletRain100]

@@Lorekeeper72 The Jedi moving off Coruscant and avoiding politics would have just made things worse. The Jedi Order was ultimately destroyed by politics as the Republic always had significantly more power than the Jedi. The Jedi's close involvement served as a means of self preservation and to do legitimate good by guiding politics in the right direction. The real reason the Jedi lost is because they were facing an extremely competent and unorthodox Sith Lord. Palpatine didn't follow the traditional path of the dark side by gaining strength by crushing the weak, but instead championing the weak and receive power freely given.

[@ProjectCambrian]

A Thought Occurs!! In the OT we have No Idea what the Structure of Organization is for either the Jedi or the Sith. The was no, There Always Two in regards to the Sith and No, Simple Master and Apprentice beyond what was told. For all we knew these were militant monastic traditions that had no fleshing out and left much up to the imagination with Some extraneous Boundaries that helped to keep things familiar. However, with the Prequels we suddenly got a Lot of what was Barely Inferred shown to us in Full Scale with Details of how the Jedi Order worked. How the Sith were structured. And the Freedom of Imagination we Once Had was Suddenly Reigned In. Our Earthly Real world Projections and Perceptions of Star Wars and Onto Star Wars made Looking at the Order and its Rules as Somehow....Wrong. This comes with Comparison of the Order to other Familiar Structures in the real world. And Christianity for the Western Audience is the Easiest and Quickest reference and go to. With that comes the Relationship between the Church/Order and CHILDREN. We Observe and Filter what we Observe of these Fictional groups through Our own Perspectives and then Project them Onto these stories. The Jedi Order had the necessary Elements in hiw it operated For the Sake of the Needs of the Story. Some Mechanism Had to Affect Anakin's Raising and Development within a Monastic system After already having How he LOVED Set with his Mother before being separated from her. The other Hard to Accept aspect is the Sense of DEDICATATION to the Call of the Force. Also a Reflection of the church, it adds a layer of Subconscious Criticism against the Jedi that is tied in Reality to the church. While we Know the Jedi Order is a GOOD Entity, we've allowed the Perception of the Order as a Whole, a Whole History of which we only have a handful of Chapters for in detail. But Allowing only the Jedi Order of the Old Republic towards the End of Yoda's life and time, how it Failed in a few Key Ways, to be allowed to Cast Doubt upon the Rest of the Institution and its History. Its the Focus on the Faults of those in charge at the time to bear the Weight of Blame for that Institution Failing. However the Blame and Future Potential GOOD of that institution Rebuilt is Denied Along with Alllll the Deeds and Good down by those before and Automatically Disregarded as Overall a Lacking and Corrupted Institution, Flawed from its inception. This Mostly comes from those who only see the Problems attached to the Narrative Characters Like Anakin and the Environments and Peoples that affected Him and the Order and the Galaxy and Instantly Disregard the Weight of History...Because....that History is Not Real and Only the Story Narrative Value Remains. This is Why so Many Today are Easy to jump on the trend that is Bashing that which Came Before and Automatically Disregarding it and its History.

[@B.matrix]

I don’t recall when the Jedi were being told to do one thing by the Force but their code said to do something else and they chose to follow their code. I do recall hearing that the Jedi couldn’t hear the Force as well in the prequels. So maybe all they had was their code.

[@emberfist8347]

Yoda makes mention in Attack of the Clones that the Dark Side is clouding their ability to foresee events.

[@oddmanout8692]

If the Jedi are so dogmatic, then why do they need to "meditate on this" as Windu once said? If it's against the Code or The Republics wishes?

[@emberfist8347]

Or the fact they considered overthrowing Palpatine and termporaily act as the provisonal government. Which is another I have seen people take out of context. The Jedi of course debate if they should make exceptions to their codes and some Jedi on the Council are exceptions to their own rules (Ki-Adi-Mundi was both not a master during the events of The Phantom Menace due to having no Padawan and was allowed to have multiple wives due to his species suffering from a low birth rate and skewed gender ratio and Eeth Koth was selected for training when he was 4 which is past the usual age for the Youngling to be picked).

[@RainyCarnival]

If the Force had full control: “Supreme Chancellor Sheev Palpatine found Dead after falling down the stairs! Get all the details here.”

[@emberfist8347]

More like "Senator Palpatine commits suicide by stabbing himself 50 times!"

[@johnriley8713]

For the millionth time, the Jedi were not the bad guys…they got played by Palpatine, distracted by the Clone Wars, and were too trusting of Anakin. And, maybe the prophecy 😉

[@decay79]

For me it all comes down to the deny/suppress your feelings, a life without love, a life without passion seems like a life wasted imo. Embracing these things as the sith does sounds much more like a life i personally would call a good life, ofc it is always taken too far used in the name of evil in the franchise so not really for them, but the idea seems to fit so much better with a good person living his life.

[@mc.9839]

It was more that they were supposed to avoid attachment as much as necessary as their purpose was to serve. That they lived a life without love has been proven false over and over. What was one of the last things Obi Wan said to Anakin after their first duel? Why was Obi Wan so overwhelmed at Qui Gons death? It wasn't that they couldn't feel. It was that they couldn't be ruled by their feelings.

[@HighHeelKnight]

Hey Thor (and anyone else reading) I still would love to know how you would pair the new-new Jedi Order with the new-new Republic. How would you set up the Jedi so that the organization can be in tune with the will of the Force and be a positive influence, while not stepping on the geopolitical toes of the numerous systems throughout the galaxy? This would include recruitment measures. Would you still have the Jedi recruit younglings and permanently remove them from their respective families, as well as Jedi not being allow to build their own families?

[@questionmaker5666]

Research the Legends New Jedi Order and its long soul seeking adventure. It would show how writers managed this better than the ideas I have. I can't really answer the first question. I guess in combating criminals the Jedi would work with local police departments and the Republic's FBI, the RBI if you will. Policing would be the main point of contention in my view. What are peoples views on this? I guess with recruitment the old method of asking to take younglings would be preferred, but without permanently removing them and with visitation rights seems right. A Jedi should be allowed to have a family, as long as they're not overly attached and are deemed able to let go if needed.

[@christopher9627]

Hey Thor, I don't understand why Disney won't do an animated series like The Clone Wars but cover the time between A New Hope and Empire (they could also do one between Empire and Jedi). In the original run of Marvel Comics they covered these time periods (which are now Legends I guess). They can get new voice actors for Luke, Leia, Han etc. It's a missed opportunity. Why do you think they are avoiding this period?

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

I know it's a thor question, but I figure it's worth noting the OG trilogy protagonist have been given more then a generous amount of adventures between ANH and ESP in the new canon comics. Some Have argued too much to the point of breaking immersion though I'm not sure I agree. Not that Disney isn't afraid to dump all over any comic or novel material the moment they see fit to make a new show, but there's probably not as much motivation given rebels was still more or less during the empire era.

[@Dave-rd6sp]

What is the smallest change you would make to Kenobi to change it from bad to good? Not great, just good. I think Anakin, in a moment of weakness, slipping and calling Obi Wan "master" would have been a perfect reason for Obi Wan to walk away and leave him alive, explain their dialog in A New Hope, and even open the door for a story (season 2?) where Obi Wan loses faith in him completely.

[@johantolli372]

At their core a Jedi shouldnt just follow orders, even orders from democratically elected bodies of goverment or even the Jedi Council itself. This is why i saw Qui-.Gon as the purest form of a Jedi. Most Jedi of the prequels were bad Jedi but not "the bad guys" as in evil. Their ridgid code and unwillingness to be flexible in the task set before them made them easy targets for manipulation. They followed the will of the Senate and people when they should have followed the will of the force.. A quote from Yoda in the ROTS novelization that i really love "Moral our authority has always been more so than merely legal. Simply follow orders Jedi do not, Jedi Knights served the force long before there was a Galactic Repbulic and serve it we will when this Republic is but dust"

[@emberfist8347]

But Yoda's quote implies they didn't change course from serving the force.

[@weezyslob]

Yoda doesn’t even mean what he says to Anakin, he tells Chewbacca and Tarfful he’s going to miss them like an hour after this. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@thegalacticponderer]

I think Yoda's main goal there was to get Anakin to come clean. He was giving Anakin a true doctrine, but not necessarily the only applicable one. But until Anakin leveled with him, he was not going to give him more.

[@weezyslob]

@@thegalacticponderer I can agree with that, good take.

[@emberfist8347]

The context is difference. He is not saying he fearing to lose Chewbacca or Tarfful. It was more of a "farewell and hopefully our paths cross again under better circumstances".

[@weezyslob]

@@emberfist8347 I know, I just always thought that line was funny. Tells anakin not to miss loved ones lost, hour later he’s saying a heartfelt “miss you, I will” to Chewbacca.

[@emberfist8347]

@@weezyslob He did not exactly lose Chewbacca and the important part of Yoda's advice was not being bogged down by missing those who passed on or fearing to lose someone close to you. There is a common misconception that the Jedi are anti-emotion but in reality they are not. The issue having your emotions take control which Yoda knows to avoid.

[@KRobinson-ko1ne]

People don’t realize that the emotional conditioning is a necessity, not a dogma. The force is potent and you have to prepared to let go and be conditioned not to give into instincts like anger People are pushing for a “grey Jedi” who doesn’t have these problems which is really moving the goal posts. If such a thing becomes canon that could ruin this era of Jedi for sure as it would confirm that they were repressing other people’s emotions unnecessarily. Indeed people like to push the theory that Anakin didn’t fail the Jedi but the Jedi failed him Of course people also seem to forget that Anakin not only made his choices and gave into anger and selfishness but the Jedi themselves knew this would be a problem and were reluctant to train him I know in real life you can’t ask a child to devote his/her life to this intergalactic monastery but in this universe this mysticism is very real and, again, this conditioning is the only way to avoid personal corruption

[@MaikeruX989]

Hey @thorskywalker, this may be one of the best videos you've put out. The questions asked would take multiple papers to even begin to answer. Awesome! A few quick comments: 5:38 This observation, while well-intentioned, is fundamentally flawed. If the Jedi Order was in such a state as to be understanding to someone like Anakin, then the Will of the Force wouldn't have needed "The Chosen One" to be born in the first place. It was precisely to address such "Awful Good" issues of the Jedi Order that Anakin was born to fix. One way or another.

[@billwhipple9039]

There is also the idea that the force has a goal, and no matter how many times it has to make little adjustments, it can make its goals happen by manipulating people. It has insight into the living world to such a degree that it can predict the future almost perfectly in the very short term, though it seems as if it can be inaccurate when trying to predict things further out than blaster fire. That's not necessarily true though. We assume that qui gon dieing was against the balance and will of the force, but in the Jedi's fall an odd sort of balance was found A master and apprentice of the dark side and originally with just Yoda and obi wan as the last two Jedi. Pretty balanced. Prior to the prequels, the Jedi had a disproportionate influence in the galaxy. An argument can be made that as a response the force allowed for one of the most devious and powerful sith lords to ever exist in palpatine and just a shear beast in the dark side in the form of the chosen one so that the imbalance caused by the Jedi could be corrected. In the end they were all supposed to die out or kill each other off to end the dark side and light side so the galaxy could fully embrace the force without such limited ideas and ideologies getting in the way Our assumptions about the force, it's will, and it's abilities to influence creatures is all from the perspective of the Jedi being right or wrong, but what if they were just necessary to the force's plan? Is it hubris to think the force has life's best interests at heart?

[@Kevin_Street]

The Jedi should have been more like Qui-Gon, since he was more in tune with the will of the Force than they were, and the movies define the light side as good. Presumably if they were all more like Qui-Gon, the galaxy wouldn't have been such a fertile place for Palpatine to lay his plans. Shmi's situation is interesting, because by conventional morality leaving her there as a slave is a bad thing. But then, what about all the other slaves? No doubt the Jedi felt that Shmi was no more or less important than everyone else who suffered under the tyranny of the Hut crime lords. They couldn't make a special effort to free her (not even because she's Anakin's mom) while leaving all those other people enslaved. But moving against the Huts would be very destabilizing to the Republic... So nothing gets done. Meanwhile if Qui-Gon had survived, I think he would have eventually gone back to save Shmi. If nothing else the Force would be telling him to do it because it keeps Anakin in balance. And I think he was the kind of guy who believed in personally doing whatever he could to make the world a better place, regardless of bigger concerns like the stability of the galaxy or the morality of freeing one person while leaving others behind.

[@emberfist8347]

So you are advocating Jedi be more mavericks who don't give a damn about individual rights or the law?

[@Kevin_Street]

All I'm saying is that in the movies the Force knows best, so it's better for a Jedi to follow the will of the Force, even when it conflicts with the Jedi code. Also, maybe it's best to concentrate on personally doing what we think is right instead of acting in the best interests of a group. Like Kant said with his Categorical Imperative: "Act according to the maxim that you would wish all other rational people to follow, as if it were a universal law."

[@emberfist8347]

@@Kevin_Street What someone thinks it is right isn't always what is actually right. After all the Germans thought they were in the right when they were committing some of the worst atrocities in recent history.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Hey, Thor. Can you help settle this: Yub Nub or Victory Celebration?

[@thorskywalker]

Yub Nub.

[@marknovak6498]

I the the prequels tried to show thecJedi as what could happen of the Second Foundation over thoughsand of years as Asimov saw in the in book Foundation's Edge. They would be in a tower and lose site of why they were needed looking too much within.

[@aTADtoofar]

I think fans forget - or don't comprehend - the Force itself in this scenario. A Jedi is, by definition, supposed to be selfless in service to the Force. When connected to the Force, learning through the Force provides a greater aspect of being, thought and feeling. Through this connection and flow, the Force provides knowledge. When dedicated to this experience, this way of living, then issues such as life and death take on another meaning as the Force provides an all encompassing perspective. The code is in place as a guarantee, to be sure that there are rules that provide a practical way of avoiding any paths or complications that may 'tempt' a Jedi to be selfish - or - use the Force to serve their own needs - even if that need is the protection of others. Either way, the way it should work is that a Jedi's emotions are entwined with a universal connection and perspective in the Force, so personal love is exchanged for universal love and compassion, as is a Jedi's life. So its not the denial of emotions, but the channeling of emotions through a connection of all encompassing compassion and peace in the balance/entirety of the Force itself. The Jedi who follow the code are still selfless. Yoda asked Anakin to TRAIN himself to let go of his attachments, and not to interfere with something that could be natural. He wasn't asking Anakin to let Padme die, he was telling Anakin that as a premonition about natural death, he should not be focusing on using the Force to cheat death of someone he cared about, and the answer to this attachment is to continued training as a Jedi. Telling a Jedi Master that you want to cheat death to protect someone you deeply care about is literally confessing your losing perspective of being a Jedi. Natural death isn't something a Jedi should interfere with, especially not with the Force. (Anakin should already know this. He probably does, but he's so desperate - he's looking to cheat, as he's done so often in the Clone War - the result of his grooming by Palpatine). The difference between the Council and Qui-Gon was an issue of faith and trust. Qui-Gon was so devoted to the living Force, that he completely trusted his own judgement and actions. The Jedi Council believed in the code as a way to be sure that no one would be placed in a position of choosing between what they thought was right, and what the Force asking them to do. Qui-Gon took these actions as an individual, the Council are responsible for the Jedi as a group. Its a precaution that has a flaw, but for the wrong Jedi, so does Qui-Gon's approach (however, this allowed Qui-Gon to discover more than his fellow Jedi, especially about life in the Force after physical death). There's no simple answer here. In the war, the Jedi lost their ability to see via the Force, and so being guided by it as a group was diminished. War makes a casualty of everyone and everything, there are no perfect choices, and the Jedi knew they were losing the public trust and the trust of the Senate - both the ones they ultimately serve. (Where they lost their way, was due to them dealing with political level issues more than social level issues). The Jedi knew they had to work with the Senate, but they didn't trust politicians. This is exemplified when the Order ask Anakin to break the code to spy on the Chancellor, which makes Anakin furious as it's hypocrisy. The code forbade Anakin to go straight to rescue his mother, yet its being broken to spy on the chancellor. Had the Jedi not lost the ability to see through the Force, they would have seen what was happening and would not have needed to ask Anakin to break the code and spy. So the Jedi's decision was driven by the circumstances of war, not a personal need. Due to not having sight in the Force, they had to make a decision. So they decided to take the risk. The most difficult thing the Jedi actually did was take command of the Clone Army. Of all their decisions, this was the most controversial, destructive and selfless. But there was no right decision here. War's impact on the balance of the Force, the lives on the galaxy and knowing it was led by a Sith Lord who sort their destruction, the Jedi felt they had to lead - had they not, things could have been far worse. Saying all of this, it should be noted that the Jedi would have survived had Anakin not betrayed them. And Anakin's betrayal was completely fueled by Palpatine/Sidious who could see through the imbalance of the Force, brought Padme and Anakin together at exactly the right moment and had been grooming Anakin since he was 10 and ultimately gave Anakin a 'solution' for something Anakin desperately sort. I'm sure post war, with the Force back in balance, the Jedi would have healed and seriously reevaluate themselves after some serious self reflection, but they would learn, grow and evolve. So, in Episode III, Yoda tells Anakin to continue his training in being a Jedi as a means to deal with his desire for control over natural death, as natural death should be embraced spiritually through the Force. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Force can stop death, even if it is seen to be unnatural - and this was a lie. So both Force Masters knew the truth of the power over death, and Anakin chose a wife he should not have had, over a death she was facing that was both part in result of their mating and his fall to the dark side. Anakin tried to cheat - again. The Jedi were not the villains at all.

[@herpderp5727]

I'm not sure if you take James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel as canon, but another reason for the Jedi's seemingly weakened connection to the Force is that Plagueis and Palpatine had basically played spiritual tug of war with the Force, causing it to fall out of balance, like a god tipped from their throne. This resulted in the Light side dimming and the Dark side ascending, which clouded the Jedi's vision.

[@blorfgur5430]

Just because the Jedi lost doesn’t mean they were wrong.

[@redrave404]

The stoicism. We live in a very emotional age, that considers the lack of restraint as "freeing."

[@balrogsareop4773]

I think "out of touch" is a better way to describe them

[@adambarnes49]

Yep definitely agree, throughout the prequel era and the clone wars the Jedi had lost their way and forgotten what they were supposed to represent,but their initial ideas and beliefs are a good thing which you see the most in the high republic era.

[@danielvitale7788]

I dont like how theres a vibe that the Jedi were supposed to be perfect. They arent, they are sentient beings, just with Force powers. They make mistakes like anyone else, the only problem is those mistakes generally have much bigger consequences.

[@matthewk4912]

Yep exactly. The Jedi are just people but fans expect them to know everything at all times and be super squeaky clean during a war-time scenario when a manipulative aspiring dictator has control of all the pieces.

[@thepsychicspoon5984]

It certainly doesn't help that, IMO the Jedi and force users in general are way to overpowered for their own universe. It was fine in the beginning, mind trick a couple of people, jump a little higher. I always thought that the jedi were like these warrior monks that had a little extra. Now, Force users have Dragonball Z powers. They can litteraly destroy planets, take down whole fleets of starships by themselves. Hell, Mace Windu took down 1 billion battle droids by himself. Oh and now, Now its even worse. You don't even need to work for this anymore, just be "born special". At this point, what is the point of having a lightsaber. I know that star wars has always been a power fantasy, but it still showed that level of power can only be achieved through one's hard work and dedication. Anakin was a great example of someone who was "born special/gifted/chosen one", can still fall flat. It was a great message and warning of arrogance. Now its the opposite. Its "Oh, sorry, this person who picked up a random lightsaber yesterday can now whoop your butt, despite you training for decades, because they are born more special than you". What a terrible F'xing message. How can you star wars fans allow this to happen?

[@bearzerger]

I think part of the problem is that over time the attitudes of people in the fandom have changed what the price for power should be and who can wield it. To me the Jedi code originally was the price a Jedi had to pay for the power they wielded. They are the constraints they came up with because the risk of corruption is so high and the consequences of someone misusing the Force are so dire. That is why the code is so strict that it's pretty much impossible for a regular human to adhere to it. Unless you are essentially super human you shouldn't be a Jedi. I'm fine with that. Over time however, I got the feeling that many fans no longer think that there should be such a price for power. They seem to think everyone should be able to be a Jedi- that's where this whole nonsense of Gray Jedi came from I believe. Those people see the Jedi code as unnecessary if not harmful. They see those cold and harsh rules about having no attachments and how the Jedi separate children from their parents when they teach them and regard them as evil. And yes, perhaps if the Jedi had not adhered to the code so strictly, they might have been able to prevent Anakins's fall. However, to me this kind of thinking overlooks the fact that the code helped the Jedi Order protect the galaxy for over 25,000 years. Any organisation that can last that long doesn't do so by following stupid or unnecessary rules in my opinion. The Jedi fell not because of the code, but because to a large part they were propping up what had become a corrupt system. Instead of following the will of the Force and protecting the people they seem to have been busy protecting the institution of the republic.

[@emberfist8347]

Except that system was the best thing they had. And what would have been the alternative at that point?

[@bearzerger]

@@emberfist8347 Let's start with not using a clone army build by some unknown man behind the curtain. Once its existence was revealed to them they should have been aware that someone was having them fight a war on his behalf. Perhaps the Jedi should have just stood aside and instead of leading the charge wait for Sidious to reveal himself.

[@emberfist8347]

@@bearzerger So they should have let the Clone Wars happen? That is even worse. That is allowing to spread unchecked. And what would cause them to make that leap in logic? The person who comissioned the army was one of their own since deceased.

[@bearzerger]

@@emberfist8347 Correct me if I'm wrong- it's been a minute since I last watched it-, but I do recall it being said in AOTC that the Jedi who the Kaminoans believed to have commissioned the army died beforehand. So they were dealing with an imposter and Jango who they suspected to be the assassin after Amidala also mentioned being hired by someone else. Meaning the Jedi knew the creation of the clone army was some kind of plot. There's no leap in logic required that you shouldn't trust the tools someone with clearly nefarious purpose laid out for you. The clone army represented something quick and easy and they even use it to attack because they are afraid. This violates everything Yoda taught Luke about the Force.

[@emberfist8347]

@@bearzerger Except the movie makes it clear that Sifo-Dyas died 10 years prior and the army was comissioned 10 years prior. It never said he died before the army was comissioned. In fact the EU made it clear the opposite was true and Sifo-Dyas died shortly after he commissioned the army. As for Jango he is a bounty hunter. They take multiple jobs from multiple paymasters. So Jango being the person who was hired by the template of the clone army and being the guy who was hired to be Padme doesn't automatically mean those events are connected. I takes a leap in logic. And the Jedi didn't use the Clones because they were afraid or to attack. Geonosis was rescue mission for the Republic.

[@ethansmith8463]

I remember seeing SuperCarlinBrothers put out a "Jedi Are Evil" theory video years ago.

[@christopherlee2515]

Good v evil is a different comparator then right v wrong. It is possible to be good and be wrong. It is also possible to be evil and right.

[@LightsaberGoBrrrrrr]

The irony of people believing the Jedi were “bad guys” when really they’re just falling right into all the in-universe propaganda against them 😂

[@Dethflash]

I have never thought the Jedi as the bad guys. The Jedi are the good guys, but they are mortal beings with flaws of their own. The Jedi most certainly were too focused on following the dogma of the Jedi teachings, instead of following the will of the force. Thats how i see it.

[@lazyeclipse00]

I believe what you are seeing is a modern perspective & feelings based in enlightenment philosophies of the west viewing the Jedi philosophies that are based on buddhist / Shinto Eastern beliefs surrounding attachment. Actually I think this is the problem with modern Star Wars creators that treat the force like a the right to own a gun vs internal spiritual mastery that then can outwardly effect the world. Western storytelling in main stream has heroes cling to their attachments for strength regardless of the consequences where in buddhism, the idea of nonattachment leads one to the path of enlightenment.

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

So why would Lucas make Eastern franchise in the west? And absolutely disguise it as WW2 and cowboys, which are at odds with the East.

[@lazyeclipse00]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о I don’t understand what you mean? However many directors brought samurai stories to the west like magnificent 7 and last man standing. GL brought Kurosawa’s hidden fortress to the west. Jedi are often called space wizards but the are like space samurai mixed with buddhist monks.

[@lazyeclipse00]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о I think I understand now, you are saying you see more WWII and Cowboy film inspiration in SW. I think that is fair except we are talking about the Jedi and the Force

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

@@lazyeclipse00 the fact that the eastern philosophy is hidden behind western facade is what gives people dissonance when it comes to the Jedi

[@lazyeclipse00]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о could be , I think even casual audiences like a story with mythos behind it even if they don’t know because makes the characters and events feel more real , GoT early seasons, but when the writers don’t understand that mythos the audience can feel that too, GoT later seasons.

[@smackthejokers]

One of the problems was created by Lucas when he introduced dark side clouding. Palpatine had the power to hide in the middle of the Jedi with some kind of clouding else the story doesn't work at all, even though it was pretty established that jedi could sense the dark side. This is a contrived storytelling device that commentators usually ignore in favor of a narrative that blames the jedi themselves. Actually it was just another Lucas mini-retcon; this time about jedi senses because of some newly introduced sith power. "The Last Jedi" does this exact thing with Luke talking about the fall of the council effectively replacing this weird sith power with a narrative about the fault in the Jedi. The way tge jedi fell could not happen at all if Lucas didnt mess with their senses LOL.

[@TrayCaddyyy]

I think the reason why Star Wars is so beloved is because so much of SW is similar to real life. We see the tragic death of democracy, the changing of a republic to a dictatorship, the force is similar to the God of the Bible, Anakin and Jesus both have immaculate births, etc. Just fantastic storytelling.

[@dereklopez9060]

The Jedi weren't really bad guy's, but they were so blinded by focusing on politics rather than the will of the force.

[@90lancaster]

What makes you think the Force is "good", seriously what in Star Wars canon implies that ever ?

[@SRMoore1178]

@@90lancaster As in the force is not inherently "good" or "evil" it just depends on the user? Or that it's straight up dark and evil?

[@Coolerranch1]

That's what Doku did!

[@emberfist8347]

@@Coolerranch1 Yes the same Dooku who believes that might makes right.

[@Mutski1579]

If the force has a will, where does it come from? It could be some kind of force god, sublty influencing a force adept's intuition from across a vast distance. The force itself having a will, frankly, scares me.

[@davidwilliam9681]

Anakin was the bad guy and he failed at becoming a Jedi.

[@danielvitale7788]

I dont think they were bad, per se. But the old order did need to change, it stagnated, it grew corrupt. They were flawed, I loved how KOTOR 2 looked at this, to deny what makes you a living being is flawed . I think thats why most OG star wars fans were pissed with the treatment of Luke in the sequels. In the EU, it was like Luke became and evilved Jedi, he recognized the pitfalls of the old incarnation of the jedi and worked to change them.

[@jessicapinkman-hd4bw]

the jedi are an obvious severe case of ron the death eater and the sith are clear cases of draco in leather pants as even though one of this franchise's theme's is that good and evil is not always so black and white and that there are dangers to seeing everything as black and white and even the jedi are shown to not be complete saints that doesn't make the sith or even the empire as a whole the good guy's

[@mrspeigel3593]

I've never thought they were bad, more like ineffectual bureaucrats with laser swords vs the idealized space Samurai we expected. I assume this was supposed to be a plot point but it kind of missed its mark

[@Ranmus]

I think the Jedi were trying to become like ultra-monastic and failed to maintain the balance. Qui-Gon and the more philosophical Jedi were trying to change the minds of the council, which failed. Jedi were once able to marry and have families. It made the Dark side more tempting due to a myriad of reasons, but also made them more focused to protect their loved ones.

[@emberfist8347]

Except protecting their loved ones tended to be the problem with that. When you love something you tend to want to keep it and that takes priority like what is the right thing to do. It is hard to make the necessary sacrifice when your big concern is how your loved ones will be affected. That is something George discussed.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

As a wise character once said "Love is the death of duty."

[@fliplife67]

I remember what Aton in Kotor 2 said in the galaxy Jedi and sith to most people are the same.

[@rickblaine9670]

Well said. There will come a day when people will stop mistaking the Prequels’ decadent generation of Jedi for the Jedi as a whole. But apparently it is not this day😂

[@GGBlaster]

I love that emphasis on balancing the Force. Imagine the Jedi are a weight on a (currently) balanced surface. If something happens that disrupts that balance, the Jedi need to shift their weight to restore balance. But they sadly became dogmatic and static, not budging when circumstances changed.

[@andyb1653]

I think the Jedi in the prequels are analogous to many world religions in modern times. Institutions that were founded on the ideals of having good morals and spreading a positive message, but have since become so bureaucratic and mired in the details and minutiae of their dogma that they've lost sight of their purpose. They just end up getting in their own way more often than not. Qui-Gon is like a kindly small-town preacher who still remembers the original message and spends his time "Raging against the Machine", so to speak. For the most part, they're not "bad guys" per se. They're just failing to live up to their own standards, and so can't do their job effectively.

[@frostedbasil74]

Well put. This is the first time I've seen someone use this as an example.

[@emanuelrodriguez9044]

I like this analogy a lot. I think most of the time people don’t really have a problem with religion or the Jedi. It’s usually the institutions themselves people criticize, not the faiths.

[@andyb1653]

@@emanuelrodriguez9044Bingo

[@kingofhearts3185]

Well said. My grandparents lost faith in the catholic church decades ago, but still have the traditional latino wall of crucifixes and read the bible on sunday because they believe in the message.

[@andyb1653]

@@kingofhearts3185 I've been an atheist for over 20 years, but I still think Jesus' message of "don't be a dickhead" is a good one. Muhammad's message of "be humble" is a good one. The tale of The Buddha's enlightenment is a good one, too. It's the behaviors of the institutions themselves that I have issues with. The messages are good (mostly). The hierarchies, infighting, hypocrisy, jihads, hate-preachers and tribalism, I can live without.

[@greatazuredragon]

Its the 'kidnap' children thing. It sounds really bad withouth a to of context that doesn't show up in the movies.

[@emberfist8347]

Anakin provides some context. Shmi consent to Anakin going to be a Jedi.

[@bloodysimile4893]

There is also Kira from KOTOR 2 problem. Stated she hate the force for being too controlling to lead to a certain outcome. But just in the game, force didn't do anything. You as the player can still choice what you wish to do and be. She however, is prove to be hypocrite for tricking everyone around her to archive her own end, the very thing she accused the force of doing. She was the reason for Sith triumvirate to exist, she brought back the Exile to the galaxy. The jedi order has flaws, much like police force. But saying that abolishing or getting rid of jedi order or police is a very narrow minded view, thinking it would solve all the problems that the organization are built to face.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Using the fact that Kotor 2 is a video game with the protagonist controlled by a person with a keyboard/ controller to discount Kreia's worldview isn't a good argument.

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

She read those teachings from malachor V that the force was interpreted as predetermination, this is nihilism as it would take away all meaning from an individual as their choices would already be predetermined by the force. What Obi Wan said about the force having partial control and Darth Marr talking about the force being a paradox is a more accurate interpretation.

[@emberfist8347]

Thank good. I hate that people act like her nihilistic worldview is right at face value.

[@Butonz1]

People forget that the Jedi code was based on real world martial Ideologies. In the "Book of Five Rings" Miyamoto Musashi describes the 'Way of the Warrior' as the resolute acceptance of death. Death was not something to feared but seen instead as the ultimate expression of a warrior's life and spirit. In the book of "Hagakure", the earliest known record of Bushido principles, it says: “If a warrior is not unattached to life and death, he will be of no use whatsoever. The saying that "all abilities come from one mind" sounds as though it has to do with sentient matters, but it is in fact a matter of being unattached to life and death. With such non-attachment, one can accomplish any feat.” You don't have to squint very hard, or even at all, to see where George drew inspiration from here. This idea that the Jedi spoke the code but didn't live by it is highly fraught with modern biases. People who don't read or understand history look at the code as unreflective of their own experience, so they need to lay their own preconceptions over it to "correct" it but the fact is people actually lived like this. THAT is what the Jedi code is supposed to reflect. Them. Not us. This idea that the jedi are all just faking it is a fascinating mix of arrogance and nihilism that completely misses the point of what the Jedi were supposed to be.

[@emberfist8347]

Agreed. I mean if anything Yoda would certainly believe what he preaches. He is over 800 years old and the EU painted the corruption of the Republic as a recent thing by the time of the Clones so about the last century or so. Yoda would have been by this logic an idea Jedi since he was part of the Order before it allegedly went bad.

[@Kevinterell]

Hey Thor, what happens to younglings who exhibit anger? No one is ever born a Sith, but to expel a force user from the school or training, wouldn’t that create a dark side user? Or do they use the ol yeller tactic? Like I’ve always wondered how they dealt with force users who never truly get with the program, are they free to leave? Do they have a MIB Memory wipe device? What’s your thoughts!

[@emberfist8347]

That is a misunderstanding of the Jedi they don't reject a youngling for anger. Hate is a cause of rejection and as The Mandalorian mentions that if you don't go through full training you are going basically lose your connection to the force.

[@bwilson774]

So if the force is acting through Anakin as the chosen one that means its also concievable that the force itself wanted to give the Jedi a hard reset.

[@blitzerman8]

It's the age old battle between dogma vs compassion w/logic

[@frostedbasil74]

Filoni. His version of Star Wars sees a lot of pre-established characters get brought down to the dark side. Or at least flirting with the dark side. I'm sure there are other writers to blame as well. Now you have a ton of people thinking Mace Windu is a minor villain.

[@emberfist8347]

I wouldn't blame Filoni. Bariss was the only character that was pre-established he had fall to the dark side. Other than there was one scene showing Yoda had a darkness within him in the final arc of season 6 but showed what was the proper Jedi to deal with it which was acknowledge it exists but not let it overpower you. Filoni has consistently kept Mace as a hero.

[@matthewk4912]

It's so strange that the Star Wars fanbase says that "Grey Jedi" are what the Jedi are supposed to be, then say Mace was a Grey Jedi and was everything wrong with the Jedi.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

@@matthewk4912i'm pretty sure those are different fans with different viewpoints. Being someone who's both a mace windu fan and not completely against the notion of a grey jedi, I don't think he's a grey Jedi anyway. Tempering his emotions and inner darkness as a tool for the light and being stedfast is not the same as using the light and dark in tandem.

[@emberfist8347]

@@matthewk4912 The Mace hatred is another thing. I loved Shatterpoint because it is told from his point of view and we get a good look into Mace's personality. He will do what is right always. When he has a to take a hostage in a book he uses himself as the hostage as that the only one a Jedi can take morally.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

It's because they don't like religion in real life. No one wants to talk about it, but that's what it is. There's also the pop psychology Freudian concept of "repression" where if you choose not to follow your emotions, you're not being true to yourself and you'll eventually explode and snap, and they assume that's what happened with Anakin. In reality, the story is supposed to follow classical, medieval, or religious morality and serve as a tragedy, a cautionary tale about hubris and temptation.

[@SkyEcho751]

Why there is a very simple reason for this... It's the same reason the any authority group is seen as bad despite them usually doing a lot more good. Think about Police, they will get a lot of flack, meanwhile an entire department is unable to do their jobs right because they are: Playing Politics, Lack the Manpower, have corrupt people dragging down their name, and a whole lot of other factors. There are good police who are there to protect and serve, but the media will often focus on only the bad that they do, or the shootouts they get into. A good example would be the fact that the Jedi participated in many peace talks/negotiations, relief efforts, and crime busting, but when we watch the prequels, we are focused on the Star *WARS* and not the Star _Peace Talks._ As a result people get a narrow focus on what the jedi are, and apply real world rules that only work in the Doylist mindset, and not the established Watsonian rules. On your point about the Jedi being empty platitudes and not really understanding what they repeat, the same is true in our society. Here's a genuine question, why are all people created equal, what does that mean, and why is murder wrong. The Jedi have forgotten their religion as they played politics. Same as our society was based on the christian belief of "We are created by a Creator(YHWH) and we are imbued with unalienable rights" This establishes why we are made equal, how that gives us all rights, and why murder is wrong, because the FIRST right is the Right to Life, as such to murder someone is a terrible thing. But nowadays few people genuinely believe in that, which has lead to certain rights being undermined.

[@seanbaugh3239]

*Thor, C'mon Bro....* The "will of the force" inspired Qui-Gon to sport a mullet, which is why he was denied a seat on the Jedi council. They couldn't take him seriously. Business in the front, party in the back is not the Jedi way. 🤔... 😳 *"NUFF SAID"™️*

[@Smith10]

Oh so that’s why obi-wan shaved his mullet. It all makes sense now

[@markmunroe-hz8rf]

To paraphrase another commentator, the Jedi, I believe, began as a force for good, but as the centuries past, they allowed themselves to be corrupted by their own ideals, even to the point that, during the days of Palpatine before to took over the galaxy, they became too political and began to loose sight of the fact that they must protect the citizens of the galaxy. In the Star Wars: Legends series, before Disney cast it in the dumpster fire, Luke Skywalker made serious changes in the Jedi code, perhaps so as not to like the Order fall into chaos ever again. He even erased the master/padawan training so that both can learn and teach each other.

[@CouncilCape897]

While I mostly agree with the first paragraph, saying they were corrupted by their ideals doesn't make any sense to me. Being corrupt means either acting maliciously in exchange of personal gain, or being morally depraved. The Jedi were neither. They fell into the same trap as most civilizations in the real world after enjoying long periods of relatively undisturbed peace and stability: complacency. I know it might seem like mere semantics, but words have meaning for a reason. And as much as I enjoy Luke's incarnation of the Jedi Order in the EU, I think you give him more credit than he merits. Most of the changes he initially implemented were a result of improvisation and special circumstances due to his scarce knowledge of how the previous Order operated, rather than a conscious effort to distance himself from it as much as possible and to rectify its mistakes. This is a direct reflection of how even the authors who wrote the early stories of the Order's gradual restoration didn't know what the Jedi of old were like because they started that journey years before the prequels provided the required context. It was eventually established in-universe that the Empire destroyed all traces of most Jedi lore and historical records. Also, the only reason he did away with the Master/Padawan dynamic was because of how few Masters were available in the early days. In fact, Luke's Jedi Order grew more similar to the old one after the prequel trilogy was completed, to the point of even undoing some of his own changes. The best example is Luke restoring the Jedi Council and appointing himself as Grand Master, once again centralizing the leadership power to a few selected individuals and taking away some of the independence for students to learn in their own way that had been encouraged back when the Order had a more decentralized structure.

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

Perhaps the ways of the Jedi defeated the sith and caused a millennium of peace in the galaxy, but the problem for the Jedi holding onto those ways is that the galaxy would have changed a lot over a thousand years. The sith changed their ways, they were more passive, subtle and quiet in their ways, the Jedi did not know this and thought the sith would have been active in their return leaving a trail of destruction as they have done throughout galactic history. Perhaps if the sith did return actively by leaving a trail of destruction, then the Jedi ways they held onto would have been effective on defeating the sith, but that is not how it played out. I doubt that the Jedi became corrupted by their ideals, they just held onto them because those ideals were used to defeat the sith and bring peace to the galaxy, and they mistook that as the way. Seeing a problem and acting accordingly and doing what is best in your power to solve the problem should be the Jedi way, and that's what the Jedi did to defeat the sith a thousand years before TPM. This is what made Luke such a great Jedi, fresh perspective on the force, not clouded by Jedi teachings and dogmas, and doing what he thought was best in his power to solve a problem. Luke couldn't have been a hundred percent certain if what he wanted to accomplish would work, but he did save his friends and confront Vader and inspired compassion in Vader to save his son. The next problem that arises in the galaxy won't be the same thing Luke faced, so therefore another way is supposed to be forged to solve the next problem.

[@ertymexx]

Having seen the clip - some people mix up the Force with god. The Force doesn't act like god, deciding every little thing, like dice rolls and whatnot. If it was so, the jedi would be pointless, useless, as the Force would be able to do everything without them. As for the case of Anakin - he choses to warp the concept of compassion to get around the rules around not getting too personally attached to individuals. The Jedis's code makes perfect sense in context - starting to feel too much about individuals leads to the exact path that Anakin falls into. Pain, suffering, anger, and ultimately hate. The Dark Side. Love, direkt, personal love, does lead to the Dark Side.

[@zacharyfett2491]

The Jedi were never supposed to have allegiance to the Republic. They’re supposed to serve The Force. The fact that they chose to build the Jedi Temple on the planet which was the seat of power in the Galaxy, probably made it easier for them to “put out fires” around the Galaxy, but it ultimately corrupted them.

[@emberfist8347]

Not really. This idea makes no sense. How do you guard peace and justice if there is no group that defines what that is?

[@zacharyfett2491]

@@emberfist8347 Through the will of The Force.

[@MurdocIsASaint]

Warhammer 40ks influence on fantasy Sci-fi where there are no “good guys”

[@CrazyxEnigma]

I wonder how much actual overlap between Star Wars fans and 40k fans there is.

[@emberfist8347]

Which is ironic as people keep wanting to claim the Imperium as the good guys.

[@x-winger9387]

I think everyone to some degree uses the Force. Most people can use it very little. However, some people draw upon it more either by will or ability and effect change. Those that move life out of harmony are aiding the Dark Side grow. It is the Jedi who remove those who move life out of balance/harmony. Hence, the reason the Jedi don’t go about on moral crusades is because some great injustice in one place balances a great over compensation in another. Yet the Force leads them to eliminate great disturbances before they get out of hand. These are great dark side users like the Sith.

[@seanbigay1042]

IMHO it's interesting that the Jedi seem to make the same mistake about emotion that Star Trek's Vulcans make. They see emotion as something to be altogether eliminated. In fact, in one Star Trek novel a Vulcan character actually does succeed in suppressing all his emotion ... with the result that he becomes little more than a tumbleweed, blown aimlessly hither and yon, unable to attach any importance to anything. The correct way to deal with emotion is the one that both Mr. Spock and Qui-Gon Jinn seem to have arrived at in their mellow later years. It's neither to eliminate it, nor to go to the opposite extreme and embrace it all willy-nilly; it is, quite simply, to rule it rather than let it rule you. To use it, rather than let it use you. Which is what the Jedi are ultimately trying to teach younglings like Anakin, but tragically, by this time in their history they're so distracted by other things that they don't take the time to go into this in depth, instead resorting to empty platitudes which have the effect of subverting what they want to convey.

[@chasehedges6775]

They were overconfident and arrogant and it led to their downfall.

[@autobotskyflame6287]

You are one of the few creators who actually understand the material as I understand it. As it was before the very same misguided readers got positions of influence over the story. The only point reference most people have is are the Jedi of the late Republic, who are in a bad spot from being stuck with beurocracy as well as having their view clouded by the Dark Side. As well the core principles of being a Jedi is a rejection of selfishness for the sake of those around you, an ideal that is undesirable to most people and as such it vilified as sociopathy despite their motivation being compassion.

[@drp1bb856]

The Jedi had become way too involved with the politics of the republic. Maybe a couple of hundred years before the prequels the Jedi would just go to where they were needed and then brief the senate on what happened. The Tales of the Jedi episode Choices is a great example of the counsel limiting Jedi knights as opposed to allowing them to immerse themselves in the force and follow the path. Had it not been for Dooku’s determination the conspiracy would never have been uncovered. Palpatine’s criticism of the Jedi in ROTS was accurate because an unbiased observer would draw the same conclusion. I agree with Thor about Anakin. If they still sensed conflict and confusion in Anakin as a Knight the counsel should have addressed it. Instead they sat like Windu with a arm over the chair leaning back saying “he may be the chosen one or he may not be”, but let’s just sit and do nothing while the conflict in him grows. Had the Jedi decided to go back to following the force during the prequels it would most probably perceived or deliberately rumored that their break from the senate was separatist in nature.

[@so8397]

The clip of Yoda telling Anakin to rejoice at least for me after watching Clone Wars and even just knowing how old Yoda is by the end of his life is that maybe his perspective is different because he has seen so much death over his life and unlike humans maybe he has the time to really learn to accept it but as well as in Clone Wars having seen the force priests or whatever they were called and having a vision what was to come including order 66 and Luke gave Yoda a different perspective and knowledge of death by following the voice of Qui Gon to lead him to that realization and since Anakin in his short life and inexperience had not YET had that realization it serms very superficial pf Yoda to say things like rejoice for those who are gone thats just my opinion

[@so8397]

In terms of the jedi being corrupt i do agree with that in general they had lost their way

[@DouglasLippi]

A: cuz so many are stupid. Anyway, I dreamt last night that I was hanging out with Episode II era Palpatine. He was cool, but I knew what he was up to 😆

[@bgallagher9718]

Not bad guys - just perhaps unsuited to changing challenges. They've been the "guardians of peace for a thousand generations'' / 20 millenia. We know there has been at least some evolution since their origins on Tython etc, though I don't know enough of the specifics to comment on just how much. But it probably hasn't been enough. Technology and society seem to evolve much more slowly in SW, or many stages of development can be found in many places at the same time. But even taking a tenth of that time period and using the example of our own world, imagine trying to live in the modern era in accordance with a philosophical / legal code developed during the Roman Republic... I'd see the jedi as good intentioned but inflexible and so ill equipped for serious challenges. Small scale individual problems likely would be overcome / survived fairly easily given their abilities and those who rise to the level of the council are, by definition, successful survivors of those types of challenges, giving them no individual or group motivation to change. We know that big challenges like the events around the period of KotOR pretty much wrecked the order. Their fault could be not learning and adapting themselves and their philosophy to cope with such things without losing the good intentions and decent approaches they all at least start out with...

[@moffjendob6796]

Because protagonist-centered morality ends up leading to serious moral dissonance. The heroes don't do good because they are good... what they did was good because it was done by the heroes. There's a lot of that in TCW.

[@emberfist8347]

Not really the Jedi clearly did what was good.

[@kevinfisher5492]

"So many" do not. Only Leslie Hedlund and her flying monkies think that.

[@emberfist8347]

No I have seen fans make this claim. And Karen Traviss made in her books. One of the reasons she is one of the worst science fiction writers in recent memory.

[@CmdrBrannick]

Its mostly people just trying to be edgy and have hot takes which aren't very hot. It's likely the same people who say the Empire and the Death Star were a good thing and the Rebels are just terrorists. Yes the Jedi were flawed, but they were most definitely the good guys. It also doesn't help that Palpatine was playing them like a fiddle and they were getting too into the politics and war.

[@alexdeghost2729]

Because I think a lot of the fanbase aren't too smart lol

[@Beamo1080]

The fact is Star Wars is an age-old tale about the fall of a religion and the birth of a new religiosity after a period of great hardship. In the grand cycle of civilization, Star Wars tells the tale of where we’re at now. We’re seeing the old religions fall and be discredited, and while there are flaws in any institution, we’ve been subjected to similar propaganda throughout our lives to believe this is a good thing, and is not a sign of outright corrupt leadership. Of course people are blind to the lessons about this, as were living through it ourselves and are subject to the same propaganda.

[@oliveragag8576]

I blame Generation Tech.

[@ajackass5950]

All im saying is they get up to some sketchy shenanigans. Also Alan told me.