Sonic Origins: Definitive or Disaster?

[@BlazeHedgehog]

I just wanted to get out in front and say that I know this video isn't perfect. I forgot to talk about some things, there may be a few factual things that aren't quite 100% correct, and so on. Having to stop and rewrite this video from scratch really threw me off balance very, very hard, and while I still stand by this video as being good, I wish it could be a little better. It's not quite up to the standard I personally would like. At some point you just gotta cut your losses and move on, which is something I maybe should have done earlier, before I spent three months here. But thank you for watching it regardless.

[@AptubY]

Ok

[@reversalmushroom]

So your video is like the collection.

[@charlibiris]

Nah I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks for everything man

[@StickmanGuides]

That's more than okay Blaze! This video is fantastic, and highly detailed already! Great work man! :)

[@AWMonopolyMan]

I can actually say this, the pencil test is still in the CD remaster in Origins, unlocked in the same manner as ever, time attack. Also the songs that were locked behind Digital Deluxe, were songs from Sonic Spinball, 3D Blast and Knuckles Chaotix which are in the normal music section as songs past S3&K

[@spongebobfan78]

34:25 Considering that Kishimoto even kinda mentioned that Sega was basically frustrated with them taking time to develop Frontiers really shows who's usually at fault.

[@thecoolbroscoolman4672]

Wow, maybe kishimoto should’ve directed sonic Origins and Sonic colors ultimate after all

[@thomasverslycken2563]

4:28 some games is a bit of a big way to say it, it's only sonic 2 that has this

[@M_Alexander]

The frustrating thing about Origin is the team offered to fix it and Sega seems to be ignoring them

[@Turbulation1]

It seems they were only allowed to do one patch, which that sucks really bad.

[@TomTheyy]

@@Turbulation1 It's unclear whether Headcannon actually assisted in the recent patch or not. Though for what it's worth, it does seems to have some Headcannon-y cheat code stuff that may've been absent in the previous version of the game (I think the 0s code wasn't even in the code prior to the patch?). Additionally, there's a significantly changed build ID number for the non-public release of the game on the SteamDB page, so it seems like another big patch is coming.

[@Turbulation1]

@@TomTheyy oh

[@mysterholmes345]

Yeah but it was patched and almost all those glitches were fixed. If not- all of them.

[@M_Alexander]

@@mysterholmes345 the patch notes list: Game crashing issues Issues with Tails’ AI Sound bugs Menu and controller issues Museum miscredits Data saving issues

[@justinrush7463]

My takeaway has always been: It's not a disaster, but it's not as "Definitive" as it should be

[@galacticspecter4364]

It really does look like Amy was planned at one point to be a new playable character in Sonic Origins

[@TheJadeFist]

Ya they put in her in all the art and promotional stuff.

[@AltKaxREAL]

@@TheJadeFist it's unfortunate really, would've loved what the team could've done to make her an actual playable character

[@Inactivechannel-r6]

I need Amy as a playable character in the classic games, maybe with her advance gameplay style

[@ToaArcan]

I doubt that, myself. SEGA are no strangers to marketing the hell out of characters they aren't going to do anything with (look at everyone except Red Bowser in Forces, they put Tails and Knuckles on the _cover_ of the game and they do fuck-all), and as was said in the video, retro compilations tend to have a tight budget and significant time constraints, so the chances of them intending to recreate Amy's Advance gameplay style, something they've never done outside of the GBA hardware, are likely low. If they were going to add a fourth playable character, it would've likely been Metal Sonic, as they could just make him a reskin of Sonic as per usual.

[@DemonDethchase]

And once again - like with her absence in Mania - it's down to fans do what Sega don't 🙄

[@dragondelsur5156]

Probably something you forgot to adress but the 3D islands have reused assets from Generations which means some things are missing. Like, Knuckles is not on the 3&K island despite him being a literal main character in the game, Amy is not present in the CD island either, just Metal Sonic.

[@raikohzx4323]

The weirdest thing is that this entire collection exists the way it does because it's on Hedgehog Engine 2, and then effectively runs the Retro Engine games inside of itself. The Sega team(s) that handled it hijacked the RE audio playback with HE2, among other oddities. Within days of its release, modders fixed the bilinear filter the game had by bringing back Mania's visuals, but that's probably by messing with some sort of render layer on the HE2 side of things. This choice for the collection is still the most baffling thing for me.

[@kamenriderspider5292]

I thought that the hedgehog engine was just a lighting engine?

[@raikohzx4323]

@@kamenriderspider5292 It's rendering in general. it handled the lighting, but at this point it's the graphical side of an engine altogether for a limited subset of Sega stuff.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

A lot of things do this nowadays. I seem to recall hearing that the modern version of Doom 1 and 2 that Bethesda currently sells runs the DOS version through a Unity wrapper. Same purpose as HE2 here. As long as you can render graphics to a texture, you can run anything inside of anything else, basically.

[@TokkanRAM]

@@BlazeHedgehog In the case of the modern Doom versions, it's not the DOS versions versions running through a Unity wrapper, it's a modification of the "Doom Classic" source port that id developed for the Doom 1/2 versions running in Doom 3 BFG Edition running in a Unity wrapper.

[@shoogles_]

This was the game that made me check out, unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, it's an eminently playable version of the games, but like you say this ought to have been an easy home run. When I booted up Sonic 3 and realised the physics were wonky in a way that interfered with the level design, I thought to myself, well, if the series can't even get this right, what's the point in my continued investment?

[@iloveemiliaandrem9443]

Play sonic mania and pray Frontiers is good. If isn't good play sonic mania.

[@iloveemiliaandrem9443]

Play sonic mania and pray Frontiers is good. If isn't good play sonic mania.

[@catsorafgc]

@@iloveemiliaandrem9443 That won’t solve his problem though. If Sega fucks up a collection of 1, CD, 2, and 3&K, his highest rated games, why would he continue to put money towards the franchise? Mania is still fantastic, but that came out like 5 years ago

[@dse763]

One big problem that became obvious with all those projects SEGA made is that SEGA's head Satomi Hajime has been completely clueless over the years, probably interfering in the decisions of those games. What's annoying more is that he's trying to impose his son as future head of SEGA like a fucking monarchy.

[@iloveemiliaandrem9443]

Emulation. Fan's have already created improved or different versions all classic sonic games with rom hacks or mods. With all types of new features, new characters,transformations and wide-screen. We have fan games my favorite being like sonic triple trouble 16 bit remake, sonic and the fallen star, sonic robo blast 2. Sonic origins just failed to be the DEFINITIVE official way to play these games made in the 90's that have been ported to nearly every conceivable device known to man.

[@hedgethewedge]

Fun fact: The reason why the dropdash is so janky is that they never actually programmed it in. For 1 2 and CD, it's actually when you charge a spin dash, it plays a frame in the jump animation that already existed before instead of new frames like S3&K. And when you release it, you don't actually drop dash. it revs a spindash for 1 frame then releases it 1 frame after. You can actually see it happen while playing when Sonic gets out of ball form then back into ball form. For 3K, since it was a new port, Headcannon actually programmed the drop dash correctly. The reason why they never programmed it in 1 2 and CD is because it wasn't in the mobile versions originally, and they were too lazy to fully add it again.

[@drkspnova]

Are you talking about why it doesn't let you change direction? CD lets you do that

[@fanboy3463]

@@drkspnova the reason why you can’t change direction is because sonic 1 and 2 still have roll locking in them. When you do spindash or curl, you can’t change direction or cancel your momentum, and this carries over when you jump. You can only get unlocked when you’ve uncurled, whether it be landing after a jump, or taking damage. When Whitehead worked on the the sonic cd remaster, he removed it, probably because it was the only remaster that that released on PC, and when using a controller, he could actually feel how stiff it was, compared to on a mobile touch screen that isn’t as tactile, at least that’s what I assume happened during the development process.

[@GlitchyJames]

That explains why turning off the spindash in the level select for Sonic 1 and 2 also turns off the drop dash.

[@hedgethewedge]

@@GlitchyJames exactly

[@hedgethewedge]

they never actually cared enough to really program it in

[@SilverSpireZ]

I’m conflicted. Was it better than Sonic Colors Ultimate? Yeah, no contest. Is it a fine collection overall? Yes. But it still baffles me how they managed to make this collection so buggy at launch when three of the four games were already finished. I’m so sick of these glitchy releases, and it really makes me concerned how Frontiers will launch. I just hope this one isn’t abandoned before being fully patched like SCU. I still enjoyed my time overall with Origins, and I do think it’s the best official versions of these games. But man it could’ve been so much more, and it should’ve launched in a much better state. Personally I’m sticking with the decompilations and Sonic 3 AIR. But if you’re on console, I’d say it might be worth picking up on sale.

[@stanzacosmi]

the reason was because they had to tack on the drop dash and coins system, a new sound system, a new rendering system, and a new menu, when they didn't have the original source code. the whitehead ports in origins (aka not 3K) are basically official mods. thats the reason why 3K's drop dash works properly, why the audio sounds better quality. (Granted it has its own issues due to crunch but still)

[@wolftales5203]

Sonic Jam eats this collection alive 🤣

[@theinkslicer]

If they fucked up a collection of 30 year old games then I can't see frontiers being any better. Don't get me wrong I still can't help but be excited for it but stuff like this and frontiers initial impressions is why I'm not laying down money till I see reviews

[@DefinitiveDubs]

As you say, a lot of collections these days are lacking in bonus content. At best, all you get is some concept art, and most of it is what you can already find online anyway. I must admit that the collections of the late 90s and early 00s were mainly great because it was stuff you couldn't easily find elsewhere. Those comic covers in Mega Collection were fascinating because in 2002, there wasn't much of an archive of them elsewhere, and Sonic Firsts being included was great because there were no digital releases of comics back then, you just had to go to the trouble of ordering them by mail and online sources were barely organized. And of course Sonic Jam having all its extras was great because, well...the internet was primitive back then. I have to assume the reason collections are so barebones nowadays is that these companies see little point spending time and resources on development, and charging consumers money, for something you can already easily find for free online that has usually been provided for free by the companies themselves. After all, what's the point of including the history of Sonic when things like Sonic Retro and Sonic News Network exist? SEGA could've easily remedied this problem by providing more original, never-before-seen bonus content, but all we get are a few scraps. We've got some concept art related to Sonic 3's plot and level structure that's cool, and some new artwork for Sonic CD's lost R2 zone. But that's basically it. The Sonic community has resorted to digging up an old 144p MTV promotional video from 1994 to find concept art, yet SEGA isn't giving us the treasure trove of a lifetime. The artwork for the lost Sonic 2 zones is just the same stuff they already included in the Cook & Becker artbook, and that sucks. I discussed this with others and the consensus seems to be that SEGA simply doesn't have that stuff anymore, since it's been 30 years and they've gone through so many restructurings and corporate mergings since then that it's just lost media. We'll never see the fabled "dragon" of Sonic 3. But I don't understand why they couldn't contact the original developers like Naka, Yasuhara, Ohshima, or even Masa to request stuff that they might have in a drawer somewhere, since surely they've kept some of that stuff over the years.

[@protocetid]

someone who worked on SCD tweeted that he found a binder full of design documents and he returned it to Sega

[@thecoolbroscoolman4672]

What about the animated cutscenes oh wait, they’re on KZbin, dang

[@cabbusses]

I feel like you're not giving Sonic Jam enough credit for being a way more faithful recreation of the old games done on hardware that was way more difficult to program for than a modern Windows PC. Extra bells and whistles in the animations are not going to distract me from all those immersion-breaking collision bugs. Also, not having the Easy mode from Jam is a ridiculous omission when it feels like the collection is starved for extra gameplay modes to justify it's price tag. Same goes for, you know, not being able to turn OFF the added features to make the experience more pure.

[@TomTheyy]

The thing with the Easy mode layouts is that they never made any for Sonic CD, and that game technically has four different versions of every non-boss level.

[@cabbusses]

@@TomTheyy Sonic CD's level and boss design does not really make for difficulty adjustments in the way the others do, since the stages are designed more around exploration than simply going forward and dodging traps, and the bosses are designed more in single-hit phases than HP bars. Perhaps it could still be done by omitting bosses and making the Good Futures the default, but it's hard to think of how to edit Sonic CD's level deisgn for an "Easy mode" since there's very few obstacles that are specifically made for difficulty before the late game.

[@X2011racer]

@@cabbusses Remove some enemies and obstacles, add more platforms to reach areas that require skill to get to, close off bottomless pits, 1 act per zone, and boom. Instant Easy Mode.

[@robertlauncher]

It’s like I said during the livestream Christian Whitehead: You literally can’t mess this up. Sega: Don’t tell us what we can’t do!

[@ligtningdog6399]

Anyone: They can't mess this up Sega: Challenge accepted.

[@GeekCritique]

Great work, man, I always enjoy what'cha put out!

[@TheMk1thomas]

It's disappointing that they didn't give Tails his super form in Sonic 2

[@TomTheyy]

You can access it through debug mode, but you're right in that you can't just obtain it from collecting the 7 Chaos Emeralds, as it works like in the Genesis original where Tails doesn't have the option. But then Origins' version of S3&K gave him a Super form from just getting the 7 Chaos Emeralds, so it's inconsistent. Alongside him having the option in Sonic 1 because he wasn't in the game originally.

[@magszappala]

The pencil test video is in sonic origins for Sonic CD it’s just you have to unlock it in Sonic CD‘s menu itself it’s not in the museum

[@BryanTruong]

Well thought out review and well put together video. In the end, I feel similarly. I enjoyed my playthrough of Origins, but it definitely could've been "more" and "better" than what we got.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Not having playable Classic Amy Rose was a deal breaker for me getting Origins. After all her prominence in the marketing, not having her playable feels like a broken promise. No Classic Amy? I sleep.

[@GBlastMan]

I KNEW IT!! I KNEW I WASNT PLAYING BAD IN SONIC 2!!! HA!!! it makes sense that its broken there because i was "why the hell im getting hit by those spikes? that never happends!"

[@Unholy_Louie]

Once again, this ALL boils down to this : SEGA cheaped out. The only competent team from the last 15 years when it comes to modern versions of the classic games should have work on the GAME part of this collection, and it nobody at Sega.

[@superbro6413]

Was waiting for your final review on all of this after Origins released, and this video sure did not disappoint. I would add that it should have been mentioned that the Steam emulated / rom versions of the Genesis Sonic era are delisted now, so future fans of Sonic will kind of be stuck with this collection. Preservation will always be an issue, huh? Cheers

[@succojones]

The thing with the Sonic CD Japanese vocals is they used the wrong vocal track for you can do anything. It's actually the original take found in betas and Sonic Jam, and not the final (better) take used in the released game.

[@LokiScarletWasHere]

Another way Jam was the obvious winner: It didn't come with malware.

[@therealwetwizard]

I cannot express how much I miss the extra "rev 1.1" ring in Labyrinth zone's shortcut, where is it SEGA!!!?

[@e-122psi3]

I'm not really sure what a lot of regressions like the music quality and post-game menus are for really. I'd definitely understand if they were ONLY taken out of Classic Mode for authenticity purposes but Anniversary Mode kept them, but why should the actual enhanced version suffer?

[@WillyToons]

Congratulations on getting the video out finally! It's too bad that Sega keeps doing less than what fans would see as the bare minimum.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Sonic Origins is honestly “Okay” if you have no other way of playing the games included, but it could be so much better, I love how there’s Chaotix Music in the Music Player but not the game itself. I’ve heard they had emulation problems with trying to put it and SegaSonic the Hedgehog on Gems Collection but it’s freaking 2022 that excuse doesn’t work anymore. Look at Capcom and their Megaman Collections.

[@SetoKaiba342]

I’m praying for more patches and DLC. I’ll probably never be over the music changes. I can’t help but feel the kids are missing out and will never know the real music.

[@AndersOHMoberg]

I liked the break at 9 minutes! Feels a bit like the intermissions in the Action Button reviews of Tokimeki Memorial. I could stay being a Patreon shoutout section or not, but I like it being a casual break that isn’t as information dense as the rest of the video. It’s a nice breather, and the music selection helped with the vibes.

[@vegetafan9922]

The reason they removed the voicelines from Sonic CD is because "Classic Sonic doesn't talk".

[@Turbulation1]

They could have preserved them for the classic mode of sonic cd so you could get a more authentic experience, and why remove amy's voice clips too?

[@vegetafan9922]

@@Turbulation1 That was- I said, that was a joke, son. I'm not sure why they removed them. Though it does sound like a stupid thing Isuka would do.

[@Turbulation1]

@@vegetafan9922 I didn't see the joke then.

[@vegetafan9922]

@@Turbulation1 The joke is Isuka doesn't know what the hell he's doing with the Sonic franchise and likes to pull shit out of his ass to try and explain inconsistencies in the Sonic canon. The Moon being perfectly fine after Eggman blew it is because the blast rotated the Moon to the good side or there being two Earths to explain why you never see mobians outside of Sonic and his friends interacting with humans being examples.

[@SilverSpireZ]

@@vegetafan9922 but they retconned the “two worlds” bit

[@DaveSlayer04]

22:57 I had this bug or something, whenever I used the elemental shields they have a VERY bad delay, I have to end up spamming the jump button half of the time.

[@heyzbeauz]

personally I LOVE this collection! most of the glitches have been fixed, and I don't mind the music changes. plus I believe they are gonna have Character and game DLC in the future! (there was some survey questions asking if people wanted it in origins)

[@ItsCenrryTH]

If you want better versions of these games, just play the mobile decomps of Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic CD and Sonic 3 A.I.R They are waayyyy better than origins

[@saricubra2867]

Sonic Mania is better than Origins because of this: 21:9 and 32:9 aspect ratios.

[@SorcererLance]

I know Mega Collection got a mention among all the Sonic Jam comparisons in terms of bonus extras, but there's also Sonic Mega Collection Plus that added bonus Game Gear games It's kinda sad that aside from the brief time S3&K was last available with the original music on Steam, we also had it on the DS as Sonic Classic Collection... though with the video being very crushed and the pause button being exclusively on the touch screen, obviously being just the games on emulators. Despite Origins' faults, I'm at least happy we've got 3&K and CD back for current consoles... I'm upset yet understanding of the music changes in 3&K, but at least it helps a bit being familiar with the "new" songs having played the PC version with the midi versions of those prototype songs. I'll also live with the mild differences between the games and the original releases due to the Retro Engine. Though it'd be really nice (though not getting my hopes up) if Sega allows the team to patch the games more, but I suppose we'll see

[@ZlayfersShitpostBot]

Not many people know about this, but there's actually a way to give the drop dash in Sonic 1 and 2 the ability to change directions in mid air You have to input the level select cheat code in both games and once there, you have to enable the elemental shields which also enables the instashield, and for some reason once you do that, the drop dash functions as originally intended Also what is people talking about the dropdash not functioning well in CD? It functions just like it did in Mania and it can make time travel easier, there's even a clip of that in the beginning of the video

[@genarftheunfuni5227]

Some things I noticed aren't very accurate from the video: 1- The Drop Dash in Sonic CD is actually at pair with the one in S3&K, just that it feels slower in speed and doesn't have the unique animation. 2- The Pencil Drawings from Sonic CD ARE in the game, just that it isn't in the museum, but rather locked behind the extras of Sonic CD, so it means you gotta do the Time Attack challenges in order to unlock it.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

Yeah, I'm learning that now. It's so weird they'd leave it THERE, when there are plenty of other museum unlockables tied to gameplay conditions.

[@Nixdigo]

I really appreciate this video thank you for making this

[@Azelf89]

19:29 Just to clarify something, no, the replaced music in Sonic 3 is not based off of the 1996 midis. Rather, they are actually recordings of, based off of comparisons between this and the already existing versions of the songs, earlier versions of the tracks. This is likely the case because of mistakes heard within the Origins versions that are corrected in the 93' prototype and the 96' midis, and how other than Carnival Night, Act 1 of Ice Cap, and Launch Base, the rest of the replaced tracks sound identical to the 93' prototype. So really, it's the other way around. These tracks weren't based off of the 96' midis, the 96' midis were based off of these recordings.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

I don't think you could say I was technically wrong, because I do say "they don't match any known version currently out there." Which IS true. Some of them match the prototype, some of them borrow elements from the PC version, and some match neither version. I read the TCRF article.

[@spaized8191]

Me personally I just like being able to play Sonic 3 and Knuckles on my switch so I don't really care about any of this other stuff lol.

[@jateyboi1108]

*New playable characters* Me: YOOOOO Plays game: OHHHHhhhhh… me:it’s fine let’s just play some sonic CD with KNUCKL- Me: NOOOOOOOOO

[@rodrigogirao8344]

30:40 Ken Penders turned that comic into a legal minefield.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

Definitely not all of it, though.

[@rodrigogirao8344]

@@BlazeHedgehog Enough for Sega to see all of it as a liability.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

And what about IDW?

[@telekinesticman]

So glad you noted how weird the spinning tops are in Marble Garden, that really caught me off-guard when playing Origins and I didn't see anyone else mention it.

[@RetroJordan91]

I think I’m the only one here who actually thinks the spinning tops in Origins 3&K control BETTER than the original 😜

[@ThellVallock]

25:00 It's not as elegant a solution as I'd like but I actually prefer being made to engage the boss and learn patterns and develop strategies, however simple this is in a Sonic game. Mostly a personal thing but, pretty much the only thing I can add two cents on. Great stuff as always, love the subtle bit about "Should've been more here" as Amy's tarot cards are blown away. :P

[@TomTheyy]

Solid overview of the collection and the issues it faces. Origins definitely has merit, but there are a lot of weird things here and there they're kinda starting to address? Like you said, getting Sonic Team to handle the existing S1/SCD/S2 remasters instead of Stealth was weird, because I feel they would've been brought more up to S3&K's standard rather than somewhat untouched, with just as strong an effort in removing content from them as adding to it. There's the aforementioned removed voice clips and soundtrack, but also things like S2's old boss rush and Proto Palace Zone being removed for whatever reason. And there's little inconsistencies like the blue fade outs only being in S3&K and stuff that remaster is able to tease but the others can't have, like adding in new cheats for the Super Peel-Out and a "hard mode" that removes the rings and items. SCD in particular still feels like the earliest made of the remasters, with no Knuckles or partnering Tails, Super forms (despite animating Super Sonic on SCD's 3D island lol), cheat toggles like Insta-Shield/Elemental Shields and so on. But at the same time, I appreciate not just dismissing the collection entirely in favour of certain fan projects like others do, when devs of those fan projects themselves condemn weaponizing their work against official releases. Those do have cool additions I wish Origins would have like universal Max Control, but IDK if we would've ever gotten pages of super specific toggles in an official release? And S3&K does go kinda far with added options with the cheats from the latest patch. And I've heard Origins is gonna have a field day with modding when the time comes. Considering SteamDB is showing another largely-changed build ID for the current release of the game that isn't public yet, it seems like another big patch is on the way. I'd wonder if it would fix up some of the more notable physics differences in S3&K or if that's baked into what the game is by now. It makes you wonder if it was 100% intentional on Headcannon's part or simply a result of Sega's crunch which they would've tweaked had they more time. The remasters did have SOME differences to the originals in this regard apparently, but this may be the biggest sticking point to this version of S3&K if it's holding it back from that level of definitiveness, at least from what I've heard according to Alex Yard and others. Some minor things: The Pencil Test is still part of SCD's unlockable extras, though I think it's been zoomed-in to remove the pencil background it had. And I do wonder if maybe revisiting Archie stuff might be a little awkward for Sega considering everything that happened? IDK, that could just be in the Encyclo-speed-ia for all I know. I've heard they used the soundtrack releases for S1/S2's audio and naturally because S3&K never got that, they went with a lower quality Genesis recording, be that of a certain Genesis model or what have you. It's a bit of an awkward situation, because I want the games to be more consistent and have the remastered audio, but putting out that kind of remastering for S3&Ks music essentially means missing out on THOSE tracks ever being a part of it, and potentially remastering the earlier prototype music used in Origins rather than the later leaked 1103 prototype music from years back. There's been a whole effort to try and make Sega aware of that prototype's more developed music but we've no idea if that's fallen on deaf ears or not, if they're even aware of it or accept it as real in the first place. It'd be pretty sad if adding Amy was planned for Origins but only got a cutscene of her in action, and there was an apparently credible person posting a survey they got for Origins asking if people would like more games and characters, but I wonder if they would've at least attempted adding Knuckles to SCD or more stuff to the old remasters if that was the case, and they did have a bit of trouble trying to implement the Drop Dash without Headcannon as you can still see it playing frames of a Spin Dash animation and it initially caused the Tails jumping constantly glitch. They also weirdly no longer have three jump buttons in the games because one of those is now the Super transformation button, unlike in Mania where all 4 were usable, so I'm curious if they could handle implementing a whole new character on their own.

[@RobotBlueprint]

Very solid review! It's sounds like this was a hassle to get together, but I'm glad you did.

[@PaperMarioParty08]

32:38 I personally don't really like the idea of the games saving at every checkpoint because that can be very easily exploited, as shown in Origins. Not only can you just close and reload your save file anytime you make a slight mistake, but also, in Origins, everything in the level resets. You get every single ring in a level, hit a checkpoint, then reload your save, and since the game saves your ring count, you can get more rings than intended. It is super easy to exploit and I don't like it.

[@CheddarVG]

Icecap Act 2 is the only different level music in Origins that sounds the same as it did in the prototype. The only difference in Act 1 is that it uses Act 2's lead instrument in the first half. Also, the Drop Dash in Sonic CD works as intended, as far as I'm aware.

[@SilverSpireZ]

That’s only because CD doesn’t have roll lock. It’s programmed in the same way, but you can still change direction unlike in 1 and 2.

[@neofly]

wait, is the widescreen movie only available in anniversary mode? can you turn off drop dash in that mode?

[@BlazeHedgehog]

Nope. Anniversary Mode is wide screen + drop dash + coins instead of lives. No way to change or disable that unless you load in to Classic Mode, which isn't wide screen.

[@reshawshid]

FYi I highly suggest looking up Bouncy Glow's Music Room here on KZbin and looking up their prototype playlist. You'll find that the prototype songs are more than capable of being excellent, and that Sega lied about bringing in Jun Senoue to refine them.

[@TNTz1ooChannel]

14:12 Wait.. You're not supposed to move out the way to avoid getting hurt???

[@DE23]

Actually, the premium music is included in the base game. The Music exclusive to the deluxe edition is the music from Spinball, 3D Blast, and Chaotix

[@connorplays6263]

I actually like Origins, I just wish that it wasn't overpriced, that it didn't have DRM on PC and that they didn't delist The classic Sonic games on other platforms

[@KidPrarchord95]

I have a huge problem with the replacement tracks for Sonic 3. I'm REALLY pissed off that they completely ruined the prototype tracks. They're such brilliant, compositionally complex and meaningful pieces, and they were not done any amount of justice. My poor, poor beloved proto tracks...

[@luckypaolastudio8476]

This may sound odd but since I saw Amy so much in promotions and animations, I was very excited and hopeful to play as Amy, but I was let down to see Amy is not playable in Sonic Orgins...

[@Gr00t]

14:50 "you may need a good pair of headphones to notice the difference" is the most noticeable difference in the world

[@BlazeHedgehog]

The last time I did a comparison between the original Genesis sound and the Retro Engine versions, a lot of people said they could barely tell the difference!

[@Gr00t]

@@BlazeHedgehog that's wild, I was watching on my phone with a terrible mono speaker and it was blatant.

[@RetroJordan91]

This is the definitive OFFICIAL way to play these games hands down.. could it have been better? Absolutely and I wish it was given more development time.. But it’s not a disaster by any means, since the collection is still 100% playable and the missions + museum modes offer a lot of cool unlockable goodies.. in my opinion it is still the best collection of these games, even despite certain circumstances that were out of SEGA’s control (the Sonic 3 music situation) I really hope SEGA continues supporting it and eventually releases a physical version once Frontiers comes and goes

[@retrofan4963]

@@Random_Person. The music situation is out of Sega's control, they can't be blamed in that case. And also, the prototype tracks are much better than the final tracks in my opinion.

[@RetroJordan91]

@@Random_Person. The Sonic 3 music replacements “killing” the collection is a bit too harsh.. it’s still the prototype tracks that we’ve come to know, just taken from an earlier version of the game.. yes they should have used the 1103 versions but I’m fine with what we got And you’re entitled to play whatever version of these games that you want, whether it’s the original Genesis versions or any other Sonic collection.. I’d rather stick with the Taxman and Stealth versions due to all of the cool bonus features that made these ports amazing to begin with.. Origins is pretty much what I’ve wanted for 9 years (minus the unnecessary bugs ofc) and I’m more than happy to have purchased this solely for Sonic 3

[@RetroJordan91]

@@Random_Person. I thought you said “these aren’t the definitive official versions because the problems ruin it and muffled sounds plus the Sonic 3 replacement music killed it” meaning that it ruins the experience in Origins If I misread your original comment I apologize

[@retrofan4963]

@@Random_Person. Are you talking about that they do not sound as good as Nov 03 1993 prototype version of these tracks that's shared online?

[@retrofan4963]

@@Random_Person. I disagree. I find the prototype tracks a lot better. IceCap prototype theme has a much better melody and atmosphere than IceCap final theme. Carnival Night prototype theme has a really fun and hyped theme park feel that you expect out of a Sonic music. Carnival Night final theme sounds like a generic circus music. And Launch Base prototype theme has more complexity than Launch Base final theme.

[@koobsmooth]

I’m no Sonic scholar and respect everything mentioned in this video. That said, I did buy SONIC ORIGINS and am having a blast with everything it provides. Maybe my ignorance is allowing me to have so much fun but I am thankful for this collection ( I’m also thankful for this video and ones like it.) I grew up taking sides and defending Nintendo. What a waste of time. If it’s a good game PLAY IT!

[@tasoganedude]

With this new Super Thanks feature, I can support you here on KZbin. $2 is like RM8 here and I don't have a stable income.

[@ZacharyDietze]

To anyone new here looking for the definitive versions of the classic games, here’s my recommendations: Sonic 1 Forever Sonic CD Complete (Don’t forget the Knuckles mod) Sonic 2 Absolute Sonic 3 A.I.R. (With the upcoming extra slot project mod that adds in Amy, Mighty, and Ray) Sonic Origins Plus with the Amy mod that gives her her own separate character slot Sonic Robo Blast 2 (With any mods you want) Sonic Robo Blast 2 Kart (Also with any mods you want) And if you want better versions of the Sonic 3 prototype music, I highly suggest checking out the tracks done by Bouncy Glow’s Music Room. There’s also a Metal Knuckles boss mod that replaces the sprites for Knuckles when you’re actually playing as Knuckles himself. That’s it, that’s pretty much all you need to do. There some other more general community packs and stuff for the main games too if you still want more, but otherwise most of them already add in far more content and modes than any of the officially released compilations. And although different, SRB2 and SRB2Kart run on a modified Doom engine, so they have a crap ton of mods out there for each of them, especially Kart. This isn’t even touching on other stuff like the Triple Trouble 16 Bit and upcoming Galactic fan games, and other stuff outside of the classic series like with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2’s Dreamcast conversion mods, or the fan game Sonic GT. There’s even a fan made SATAM season 3 being made. The amount of fan content still being made for Sonic is basically endless at this point, I could go on and on about how much stuff is out there and currently being made for *hours.* I gotta at least give credit to SEGA for allowing all of this to happen though. Had it been under another more cutthroat, uncaring and unforgivable company like Nintendo, then not even Mania would’ve existed. So consider ourselves lucky, because believe me, things could’ve been *way* worse. And if you think Sonic fans are bad, hoo boy, you’ve seen *nothing* among the likes of Smash or Pokémon yet, because if it’s not worship for them, it’s the complete opposite…

[@musicmanjoe7117]

You can unlock the pencil test in origins, but it has to be done in sonic CD alone. It has the same criteria as the 2011 version, but it's just hidden in sonic CD for some reason.

[@predcon1]

S3&K Collection on PC did something right that no other Sonic re-re-re-release ever did again. A few things. And No. 1 on that list was "Didn't add Denuvo".

[@sonicmastersword8080]

Someone needs to mod the 1994 Sonic 3 and Knuckles soundtrack into Origins.

[@Azelf89]

Already happened.

[@PuffyRainbowCloud]

Now that we have Sonic Origins… could we have a Sonic 3D Origins containing properly remastered versions of SA, SA2, and SH? The definitive editions of all of these are modded PC ports and that’s… kinda sad.

[@sleepy9102]

I liked this collection. However it’s lacking content beyond the games. I wished they at least give us file select for each game not just 3k.

[@Oysterblade84]

Congrautlations on putting this video together, it looks like alot of blood, sweat and tears went into the editing. Question: It's been 7 months now since Sonic Origins released. Have Sega ever officially fixed all the bugs in this game? Like released a patch that fixes all the mishaps and music issues? I know a fan patch was made but i'm curious if Sega have done this in an official manner?

[@BlazeHedgehog]

One patch was issued a month and a half before this video was released, and there seems to be development activity on Steam to suggest a second patch is coming eventually, though Sega hasn't publicly announced anything yet.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

Reality:Sega could get the original Sonic 3 music but, they are greedy so.

[@Fafaboi]

Do you remember me

[@RetroJordan91]

How do you know SEGA didn’t try to work something out with the original composers? Perhaps the composers straight up gave them an asking price for royalties and SEGA couldn’t afford it? Or they straight up didn’t want to work with SEGA again?

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

@@RetroJordan91 Sega has the money for sure and they removed playable characters from the game and they made it $40 and they removed the games from the shop.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

@@RetroJordan91 Sega has to pay composers to make the music in their own games including Sonic Forces and Frontiers.

[@RetroJordan91]

@@crashban4t.f.s.b783 well if they have the money, why isn’t the original soundtrack included? Likely there’s burnt bridges due to SEGA owing the composers royalties from previous releases thus resulting in difficult negotiations.. they got themselves into a no win situation with the original soundtrack and now they can’t use it anymore unless they actually pay up

[@JadenFox9]

actually, Knuckles Chaotix was available on GameTap back in the day before it shut down now, onto Origins, while I agree it wasn't a disaster nor is it the definitive edition, itself, everything that happened around it left a black eye on SEGA, DLC Chart, removing the originals from the Store Fronts, the pricing, and with what Stealth had to say before being allowed to patch it, this collection left a PR Black Eye on SEGA just beside Colors Ultimate's Quality at Launch, and let's not be so generous, because not only is SEGA competing with itself, Jam, Mega, & Gems, they're also competing with the Fans as well, Forever, Absolute, AIR, & Whitehead's CD Remake, just to name a few, outshines this collection in many ways, and the fact they can't even compete with them is just sad, they should be the ones inspiring the fans, not the other way around, if it was back in the day, they probably would've gotten a pass, but not nowadays

[@BlazeHedgehog]

Congratulations for being one of five people to remember Gametap. I even used Gametap (that's how I played Psychonauts and Sam & Max) and I didn't remember this.

[@maude7420]

Satan: My child will give 40 bucks to SEGA for a shitty half put together cashgrab Jesus: Play Sonic Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute, CD Decompilation and Sonic 3 AIR

[@TheEdgeOfDayBreak]

I could tell the song difference straight away with no headphones

[@robertkovarna8294]

Sonic CD is the only other game with the proper drop dash. It and Sonic 3 don't have the roll lock enabled. Meanwhile Sonic 1 and 2 do for some reason.

[@trinityskitz7929]

This is the definitive way to play the games imo, Music aside which was a bummer (Carnival Nightzone, etc) The performance in all the games have been drastically improved (no slow downs, fps issues when you lose rings etc) The stage gimmicks animations are smoothened out (Scrap brain zone, the spinning circles etc) a lot of effects are touched up. These developers really poured their hearts into this project and it's noticeable. Despite Sega's lackluster attitude the developers still managed to turn this into a great collection

[@moister3727]

This collection is good, just good because for the price is asking is nowhere near a good deal.

[@5tuk149]

Here before the premiere. I think it's not a disaster but also not the definitive version of these games. On PC there are a few free and better alternative but for console it definitely is the best way to play Sonic 1,2,CD and 3k.

[@Jenonen-Music]

Agreed. It's a hard mix between the two extremes of bad and good. It's serviceable... I suppose? The mission mode was pleasant! But I'm not happy that they removed MJ's tracks, like many others.

[@TariqTheGuy]

true

[@mcihay246]

@@Jenonen-Music Tbh, being unhappy that MJ's music was removed is pretty much comparable to being unhappy that bad things happen. It's just an unfortunate outcome outside of Sega's control... Not without having to throw out a lot of dough for the rights for these removed tracks. It's not feasible to spend that much for an improved collection of games from the 90s. At the end of the day, a profit has to be made.

[@toyshelv]

King of Bunnies sighting

[@BlackKnightKomms]

He shows up in unexpected places.

[@Aiden-Ed]

Tbh I see it as definitive literally just in the fact that it comes as sonic 3 and k immediately available together, the new zone and ability, all the characters we’ve gotten in the past, and level select all right away. Classic collection, mega collection, and even sonic jam I’m pretty sure doesn’t have all these things.

[@SlushiFoxEdits]

The thumbnail is hilarious because it seems like Amy is frightened of miniature Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. and Tiny Sonic and his friends are afraid of giant Amy, it's quite funny! 😄

[@Flufful.]

WHY CANT WE GET SONIC 3 MJ MUSIC I KNOW BUT STILL

[@InitialAA]

Sonic CD's dropdash works correctly, since it does not have the roll lock.

[@KatlikeRider]

Thank you for the interesting video. It's nice that you looked at both the positives and negetives in a way that isn't just "This sucks just play S3AIR instead". I personally still think for what it is Sonic origins is a legitimately good, if overpriced, collection of games and probably the most convenient way to play them, but it is rather concerning that this is the second sonic remaster after Colours ultimate to drop the ball due SEGA's scumminess. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." and all that. At the very least its NOWHERE as bad as Colours ultimate was. At worst origins is a decent port of great games while Colours was a butchering of a great game.

[@DADA-yt1pt]

I agree. There is a lot of fun to be had with Sonic Origins. But it also could've and should've been a lot better.

[@mikerude5073]

Have they patched the height of Sonic's jump in S3&K yet? Not being able to get to the big ring right before the Hydrocity boss pisses me off. Originals you could reach it. Also, second act of mushroom hill, the red bumper at the start not getting you close enough to the big ring also is incongruent with the original. Until those are fixed I'll stick with pc emulation.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

They haven't, no. I had to get Tails to air lift me to reach it.

[@mikerude5073]

@@BlazeHedgehog Well sticking with pc emulation then. Even if the sound can't match the real genesis. Origins also left in an issue from the orignals that always bugged me. When you jump into a narrow space that isn't crushing down on you. Think Sandopolis Act two, when the sand is filling the caverns, there is a place you can jump up to as Hyper Sonic, and you'll insta die as if you stepped into a crushes, because the blocks stopping your path and the thing you need to push are a narrow spot. That always felt unfair to me as it isn't soemthing that ought to be crushing you.

[@dannypatrick9361]

All I'll say is if Sakurai can get Sora in Smash, SEGA can get the correct music for Sonic 3. You can't tell me Disney is easier to defeat than the Michael Jackson Estate.

[@X2011racer]

And The Jetzons, don't forget them.

[@KadBlasty]

I'm still losing sleep over the loss of the '94 soundtrack in Sonic 3. One of the major reasons (apart from the bugs and shoddily made widescreen ports) that kept me from spending $45. Hopefully Frontiers won't disappoint me as much as Origins did.

[@animegamingdude]

you can always add it back into the pc release with mods

[@KadBlasty]

true

[@robertlauncher]

I wonder what a world where Nintendo bought Sonic Team would be like Izuka during a direct: The next Sonic project has been delayed. I’m sorry. …that’s it? That’s all I had to do? We actually get extra time to work on things? Oh my gosh… I’m FREE!

[@shinji2898]

I just feel that this collection really disappointed me because of how I wanted it to be great. So many fans wanted it too-and yet it released so poorly. Doesn't help that it sounds like its another sonic team project that was rushed, with them even doing the same to headcannon themselves. I just can't buy the game knowing that, man.

[@Fatboiii]

WHY ARE THERE 4 *AND COUNTING DISLIKES THIS IS AMAZING

[@DreamerFromTheDepths]

Sonic Origins is likely to be the last bad Sonic related piece of media for a long time now, Sonic Frontiers blew away expectations so it seems like Sonic's going to be eating good for a while, SEGAs literally been trying to pull off miracles with Sonic games for the past few years and finally their work paid off, for the past decade or so Sonic games have always had miniscule budgets and next to no development time, it's a wonder what they managed to do with all that in mind actually. If nothing else it should be good from here on out.

[@mysticmind4563]

As I make this comment Sonic Origins is on discount. Since it is I will purchase this game with expectation that this will not be the definitive version. Though I will give it a chance to see if I find it at least passable considering it's marked down for half price.

[@VOAN]

It seems Sega took notes of Rockstar's GTA Trilogy: Definitive Edition failure and follow suit. Heck they even start delisting previous versions of Sonic 1, 2, and CD in similar scheme to what Rockstar did when the GTA Trilogy DE came out.

[@BinglesP]

The first Patreon supporter mentioned is "EdBoy"? Like that nickname Rolf gives the Eds in Ed Edd n' Eddy?

[@elheroedeltiempo6164]

Oddly enough, being someone from the mid-2000s, I'm more used to the music from the prototype/S&K collection because I always put it on in Sonic 3 Complete and I can't play with the original music because it feels weird lol

[@magszappala]

At least if we don’t hear the original tracks in sonic origins ever again at least we still have sonic 3 air

[@PersonaSama]

Great video! One thing I was wondering: was Sonic Jam capped at 30 FPS? I remember reading that somewhere and it's been so long since I last played that I honestly can't remember. If it was, that's another huge demerit compared to later ports too 🤔

[@BlazeHedgehog]

The games in Sonic Jam aren't capped at 30, but they do have little bits of slowdown here and there that weren't in the Genesis games. As to why, I don't know. It mostly happens in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, so maybe the levels are so big that some decompression routine for map art causes the Saturn to chug a little every now and then.

[@PersonaSama]

@@BlazeHedgehog Thanks for the info! Man, now I'm annoyed that I believed that 30 FPS lie for so long. I guess it's my fault for not checking it myself though 😔

[@fluffy_preacher]

New sub here and great work on the video, i could def tell the immediate difference with the enhanced music and so miss it, was never really a Michael Jackson music person but the music u know just fits and with it removed im not interested in supporting a game that does this, i honestly don't care what the reason is to why they removed it the point is they shouldn't have done it or at least give the real reason why it was done

[@mcihay246]

It just comes down to having to spend dough on the rights for the tracks. Do you honestly think it's feasible to spend even more money for an improved set of games from the 90s? They still have to make a profit, and it's foolish to think that shouldn't matter.

[@BlazeHedgehog]

This is a long shot theory that is probably wrong, but I'm willing to bet somebody at Sega knew they weren't supposed to use the Michael Jackson music because he had either backed out or been removed from the project. We have a Sonic 3 prototype that is apparently from November 1993, about two or three months before the game would release. Michael Jackson exited Sonic 3's production in August, if memory serves. The November prototype does not have his music in it. Meaning that, at some point between November 1993 and February 1994, somebody put his music in to the game MONTHS after he had quit. After the game released on store shelves, you had guys like Sega of America's Roger Hector outright denying that any of Michael Jackson's music made it in to the final game and Sega of Japan basically hiding Sonic 3's composer credits for almost 30 years. Over time, more of Michael's production team and co-writers have come forward to confirm they wrote music for Sonic 3 on Michael's behalf, and some of them even claim Sega owes them money for unpaid royalties. Most of the people who work at Sega today weren't involved in the deals that lead to Michael's involvement (and removal) from Sonic 3, and probably don't know how to solve a problem that seems to be the result of a decades-long cover-up. Some of those musicians sounded pretty angry about not getting paid, which means they aren't going to be reasonable when Sega asks their licensing fees anyway. It's probably a stalemate and the only thing that will solve it is lots and lots of money -- maybe even more than Sega can actually reasonably pay.

[@fluffy_preacher]

@@BlazeHedgehog would there be a way to insert the music beck in and if so i know there would be a huge cost to pay legally but if u were to share and distribute it

[@BlazeHedgehog]

@@fluffy_preacher People had a mod ready to go on launch day by 10pm to restore the original music. gamebanana.com/sounds/61710

[@mechashadow]

12:43 I think the game was worked by Gogame Vietnam as a glance at the names in the Gogame section is clearly majority Vietnamese.

[@marvlouslie2053]

The first thing I did with Sonic Origins when I got it on sale (for $12 bucks) was mod in the original soundtrack to Sonic 3. It's downright criminal we can't have this soundtrack anymore.

[@Cloud971]

Thank you for in-depth review, i'm gonna stick with Sonic 3 AIR since it's my favorite Sonic game of all time. It's the most important thing to me. I pre-ordered this game but when i saw what Sega did, i asked a refund right away. I'll definitively buy any Sonic Collection only if Sega care a lot more about it.

[@sonicscott9119]

SEGA should have left the four games with Stealth and his team, give them the time they needed and this collection could’ve been truly amazing. It was all there on a platter for SEGA but they just can’t help themselves, they have to meddle in silly little ways like removing the remastered tracks. I wouldn’t have had a problem with the new music tracks either if they didn’t sound like they belonged in Sonic 4. I hope those tracks have more work done on them for Origins Plus. For me, Sonic 3 A.I.R still remains the best way to play S3&K on modern hardware even if it isn’t an official product.

[@melvinburchett]

Great video - Sonic Jam is one of my favs as a fan, and these were all native to Sega Saturn. Which is why they run and play so well, and also why some of the sounds are different.

[@prinzexisalowqualityytber]

Removing sonics YEAH was criminal its literally the only one of four words where classic sonic (in the game) speaks