Facing Reality | Glenn Loury & Charles Murray | The Glenn Show

[@dledge1080]

Glenn is very brave for having Murray on to discuss his new book. Bravo Professor Loury.

[@PipleZiple]

Beautiful profile pic

[@tonycatman]

For some, it must be great being in your 70's. When you don't give a fuck about losing your job or your friends, you can start to express yourself honestly.

[@nealorr5086]

@@tonycatman I was thinking the same. Loury is moving nicely into "go fuck yourself" mode.

[@lr6477]

@William Schlass pleeeze have you seen soros' eyebags??

[@runreilly]

Same comment for three years. "Glenn and John, kudos for being brave. We need more people like you." Are you speaking out yet? I'll bet some of you are, but I'll bet most secretly listen to this podcast and then continue to play it quiet and safe in their daily interactions.

[@ckahlquist2129]

The world needs about 400 more hours of this.

[@mcnallyaar]

AMEN!!!

[@daveg5857]

Agreed. The content here in this discussion is worthy of a book of its own. You could spend a lot of time. These guys don't waste words.

[@waltherchemnitz]

400,000 more you mean.

[@bensanderson7144]

Only those countries with a large African minority.

[@vinnym5607]

400 hours of spinning white nationalism? Yikes.

[@trdiopn5737]

Glenn Cornel West and now Charles Murray that intellectual diversity is why I am such a big fan. I had drunk the kool-aid on Charles Murray thanks for giving us a different perspective. Keep up the good work.

[@billsimms2511]

Murray has really impressed me here. He doesn’t have an evil agenda like the left thinks. He just wants the facts out there

[@vinnym5607]

@@billsimms2511 Now you're drinking the Kool-aid...

[@billsimms2511]

@@vinnym5607 and it’s very tasty 😂😂

[@countdooku75]

@@vinnym5607 yes Murray is the most crypto fascist there is

[@ahmedwhaji3672]

@@countdooku75, where is the evidence that supports your claim? I am certain that you do not comprehend what fascism actually is and was about?

[@reginafrants2858]

Gratitude for Intellectual honesty. Nothing less was expected.

[@SaminHam]

Everyone that agrees with me is intellectually honest, everyone who disagrees isn’t

[@bhbluebird]

Which won't be appreciated or understood by cherry pickers here who miss the point of any discussion.

[@cosuinofdeath]

@@SaminHam better watch your blood pressure then

[@flacjacket]

@@SaminHam was there anything in this discussion that you felt was dishonest?

[@SaminHam]

@@flacjacket not at all. I just hate that inane sentiment perpetuated in a lot of KZbin comments about “iNteLeCtuaL hOneStY” when it comes to controversial positions in academia. People conflate ‘honesty’ with validity all the time. A lot of philosophical/sociological positions are contentious and arguments for or against aren’t either honest or dishonest depending on if you agree. People can be honest and wrong. The attitude upvoted above demonstrates a stunted cognitive capacity due to inability to adequately represent complexity. It’s a dumb meme

[@jeremiahmacclure]

The problem is 50% of the population don't want to have a dialogue about these topics, they want everyone to submit to their ideology.

[@dreamstever]

Which half? Haha. I kid. I know it's both.

[@proudatheist2042]

Former special education teacher. More than half of the population doesn't want to talk about intelligence differences.

[@TheThiaminBlog]

That’s narcissism. It is on both liberal and conservative sides. Narcissism’s black and white thinking is maybe the real enemy.

[@peopleofearth6250]

Stop complaining about literally anything and shut up. Problem solved

[@chrisyoung2197]

Well, I definitely feel like I’ve been lied to about Charles Murray

[@peaknonsense2041]

Now that you know. Sit down, think of and write down all of the major cultural controversies over the past 10 years that come to mind and start researching them; really research them. All sides. I'm not being hyperbolic, you will find that almost all of them were reported to you falsely.

[@persona-non-grata]

@@peaknonsense2041 So much of what I was taught (even in graduate school) has been falsely reported. I'll never forget when I actually researched the 'Gend3r Pay Gap' myself from economists and not from the fem1n1st authors I was forced to read in school. To this day, politic1ans regurgitate the gend3r pay gap *lie* as if women are paid 76 cents on the dollar compared to men for the same work. The destruction of Charles Murray's reputation is just another pebble on the mountain of calumny that's been being shaped for decades now.

[@yudhiadhyatmikosiswono9082]

That is the power of media, they can make innocent people to guilty over night.

[@johnhorton5627]

So if somebody pointed out he burned a cross in the middle of the Civil Rights movement by the police station in the middle of his Iowa town, I am sure you would feel lied to here as well. That doesn't make your feelings at all valid. Murray is a racist. He's always been. That's why he looks for data that justify racist outcomes and ignores data that validate it as obvious. At the end of the day, Murray's work is solely devoted to naturalizing racist outcomes. That's who he is and has always been. Your feelings aren't interesting to the reality of his public work.

[@chrisyoung2197]

@@johnhorton5627 I usually don’t hold someone’s teenage antics against them. And I don’t exactly buy Murray’s argument anyways, I don’t find his scientistic approach to “facts” to be all that convincing

[@bertrandrussell894]

So sorry for the way this learned man has been treated, thank you so much for having him on to discuss, Glenn. The glowing review of Charles' book has persuaded me to buy it.

[@Slimc74]

Mr Murray knows who Ayers and his group of losers are. They must be exposed. And his " white middle class" is a mistake. Its every race of people against the woke.

[@hankschrader7050]

Murray knows that with time, western society becomes more aware of and accepting towards proven data. When people look back on martyrs throughout history, they like to see themselves in them. But only a few individuals are brave enough to become a (sort of) martyr in their own primitive era, knowing the consequences that the brainwashed peasants have in store for them.

[@transmogrification245]

Watch SHAUN the bell curve.

[@ondolite3789]

@@Slimc74 What do the woke believe in? I am woke and woke enough to be alarmed at the amount of slow dupes who are falling for the distraction.

[@powertuber3.047]

Murray chik en d out at 41:12

[@birtaudabraham5943]

I waited for this episode for a whole month. And it didn't disappoint.

[@bertrandrussell894]

It really didnt did it? So good. Scary at times but good. I worry for America (im in the UK).

[@Malignus68]

Same here. I've never been so excited, waiting for a video.

[@benjaminholm2311]

Loved it. So smart. And sad that this guy is slandered in this way.

[@gerard5461gmail]

@@bertrandrussell894 Don't worry, we are going to be ok.

[@skepticalbutopen4620]

I feel the same way

[@mouseutopiadystopia24601]

Love both of you gentlemen. Been following each of you for years. I find it so sad that people are unable to handle objective reality. Reality is amoral, politically incorrect, and not socially constructed.

[@runreilly]

Exactly. Nature has little concern for fairness.

[@Animal_lives_matter]

What do you mean by reality is amoral?

[@mouseutopiadystopia24601]

@@Animal_lives_matter Reality is morally indifferent. It does not care about right, wrong, equality, or any of that nonsense. In the context of this discussion, ethnic groups have different average levels of cognitive abilities. It’s not good. It’s not bad. It just is. Similarly, men and women are inherently different. It’s not good. It’s not bad. It just is. We must accept reality as it is, rather than demanding reality contour itself to our moral preferences.

[@Animal_lives_matter]

@@mouseutopiadystopia24601 What's your geographical location? I'd like to calculate your cognitive abilities based on that. Also what's your income, that should help me know what's going on inside that noggin of yours. And don't you go objecting now otherwise you're just denying reality. Then, once I've calculated your cognitive ability from the comfort of my armchair, I will draw some normative conclusions for you.

[@mouseutopiadystopia24601]

@@Animal_lives_matter Ah. You are one of those people who doesn’t understand. You are emotional and making responses that do not follow. I will spoon-feed you some thoughts. There is nothing objectionable about using even weakly correlated data to make a best-guess inference. Even though there is only a correlation of .1 between height and IQ, if I have no means of obtaining more data, and I’m forced to guess the more intelligent of two people, then I would guess that the taller person has the higher IQ. I may only have a 51% chance of being right, but that is better than the 49% alternative. However, judging my IQ by height alone would fail, since I am short for my country of residence, average height for my ethnicity, and high IQ by any metric. Fortunately, in real circumstances, we can often obtain more context. Indeed, were you to guess my IQ based on my resume, then you would probably be fairly accurate. I’m a cloud engineer in a Fortune 500 company, and my IQ is consistent with this. I have degrees in mathematics and physics, and my IQ is consistent with this. Were you to judge me based on my vocabulary and talking speed, you would also get a good approximation. On the other hand, judging me exclusively on the average of my ethnicity, one would incorrectly suppose my IQ to be much lower. However, I must acknowledge that the average member of my ethnicity does not have the cognitive abilities to do what I can do, nor do most of my cousins. Nevertheless, were you to guess my IQ based on my parents’ IQs, you would be pretty close. Both of my parents were high IQ, had high IQ careers, and had high IQ offspring. Ethnic differences in height are not controversial. Ethnic differences in athleticism are not controversial. Ethnic differences in cognitive abilities are taboo to acknowledge. Why? Because intelligence predicts socioeconomic status. Nevertheless, the universe does not care about feelings or blank-slate equalism. Nor do I. As long as someone with a high IQ from a low IQ ethnicity can demonstrate their abilities and get a high IQ job, there is nothing unfair about it. If we blame “systems of oppression” for acts of god, then we are needlessly creating conflict by denying reality.

[@CMatthewHawkins]

We can all be thankful for Glenn Loury, John McWhorter, and Coleman Hughes for sanely and soberly engaging this discussion in constructive ways. They each have different takes on how to approach Charles Murray's latest book, yet all three of them are giving his ideas and his approach to disseminating those ideas a fair hearing. This is exactly what public intellectuals should do. As a result of these discussions, and the different perspectives of Loury, McWhorter, and Hughes, I have a better understanding of the swirl of ideas in these times of strong passions and polemics. In this video, I see a side of Murray that doesn't come through in other interviews with him on other platforms. Between Loury and Hughes interviews with Murray there emerges a clearer understanding not only of the complexity of what Murray is dealing with, but also of the motives of the author himself, the context of his work, and what he hopes will be the outcome of publishing it the way that he has. Loury, McWhorter, and Hughes are, as public intellectuals, doing a public service.

[@Musicienne-DAB1995]

I've read articles on this topic from both sides, and I think my perspective has been enriched by a few of the articles provided by those who disagree with Murray.

[@flowstategmng]

I really love when Glenn summarizes what his guests said in his own words. What a fantastic skill, and an absolute marvel to watch. 👌👍

[@trishs4503]

A fantastic listening skill and useful for us in the audience!

[@filmjazz]

He is also expert at summarizing the point of view of the opposing side.

[@Whelknarge]

What's particularly good about that approach is that it gives the other person the chance to confirm that you have correctly understood what they've said. If you misunderstood, they can point out the mistake, if not they cannot accuse you of not "getting" it if you still have reservations about their argument. It's a brilliant rhetorical device.

[@gstar3569]

i always am captivated when Glenn talks, like I always feel he has something to teach me. The kind of person who I would love to have had as a teacher or lecturer in my youth.

[@ondolite3789]

Lousy is dumb. A sick and confused man who will rot in hell for his evil.

[@karenaubert8852]

Charles Murray nails it with "the anger on the right". Part of it is fatigue, too. "I am sick of it." After 70 years of life, 50 of which have been involved in race discussions with an eye toward equality (equal OPPORTUNITY for education, to grow up in a loving home, for economic advancement, for pursuit of dreams, for feeling secure in one's person and property). I'm ready to throw my hands up in frustration, walk away as I retire to my white community, and try to stop caring!

[@billsimms2511]

I hear you. You are definitely not alone .. so many are tired of the race narrative

[@daraharvey4519]

There are too many people with a vested interest in keeping people convinced that racism is the root of their problems. It’s an industry and sadly, the mainstream media has invested its entire reputation and future into pushing it.

[@Pmtd1234]

Ditto! I am 73, and saw systemic racism first hand in the South back in the 50's. During my years in management I never saw racism in corporate America, and personally promoted both black and white personnel based on their merit. I am sick of this constant screaming racism about everything.

[@bwake]

A fundamental rule of ecology is “No viable niche goes unfilled.” That rule also applies to economics.

[@blouptqy]

@Karen Aubert Ok Karen

[@matthewsinclair507]

It's finally here! I almost crapped myself when I first heard tell John that Charles Murray was going to be on he show.

[@Malignus68]

LOL So did I. Never been so excited about a guest.

[@elspeth8476]

As a teacher, I have observed time and time again, that students who persist, regardless of how natively bright they appear to be, have some measure of success. In most cases there is an adult in their life with high expectations of the child, and helping her to persist. Steady focus, hard work cannot be substituted. But it is difficult to persist, and to think clearly when you live in a dangerous community. At 59 minutes in, Glenn talking about the late Mark Klenman's book "When Brute Force Fails" sounds like a practical set of possible solutions to help distressed communities.

[@ondolite3789]

Distressed community is whytes.

[@michaelhands2189]

Glenn Loury is my intellectual Virgil, spirit guiding me through the hellscape that is modern American woke-ism

[@MeanBeanComedy]

High praise!

[@fuzzydumpling9829]

Virgil guided Dante through hell

[@scottwalker7884]

The stones on Glenn are impressive. Absolute intellectual legend.

[@harrysachs2274]

How about Murray? He's saying a lot of things he isn't supposed to be saying.

[@harrysachs2274]

@Brandon May definitely. He had absolutely no fear speaking the truth, and look, he's doing fine. People who he most likely doesn't want anything to do with don't talk to him. Huge loss, lol.

[@daraharvey4519]

It’s because he cares about truth. Shocking lack of that among people these days.

[@daraharvey4519]

@Brandon May it’s not a contest

[@vangoghsear8657]

Had been waiting years for an honest conversation about the cognitive disparities between groups with an honest white man and an honest black man. Solid conversation. I believe this to be the most difficult conversation to have in our age.

[@CerebralFriction]

It really shines a light on what humans value, there can be differences in any other regard, but it's this one thing that drives people crazy. Cognitive ability gets right down to the roots of what it means to be human. At least until we discover 5 other alien species that are smarter than us.

[@ondolite3789]

Not honest as blaqs develop faster than whytes. That is the killer

[@stvbrsn]

It’s not really a difficult conversation to have at all… It’s just difficult for some people to hear.

[@panderichthys_rhombolepis]

*@'Van Gogh's Ear':* Hahahaha! What a fabulous username! 👌🏾👌🏾👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@ondolite3789]

@@stvbrsn Why is it difficult? Murray is advancing the same old fully discredited fraud.

[@paulamitchell880]

"Affirm our existence in this great republic...don't throw away our inheritance" this is a big deal and I think the answer to our current chaos. Enjoyed this one immensely. Thank you!

[@LittlebitofDixie]

Martin Luther King called the Constitution/ Bill of Rights, his promissory note on God Given rights. That inherited blood bought Constitution was very relevant then and now. Inherited yes, but many disregard the value. Don't let folks tear up that receipt.

[@BGWhite-sb8is]

Don’t judge me but today is the first day I’m learning that Douglas Murray and Charles Murray are different people. First, I heard of The Bell Curve written by a person with the last name Murray. Then, I saw Douglas Murray doing book tours over the last several years. I had assumed “oh the bell curve guy wrote some new books.” Then, I watch this podcast waiting for Douglas Murray to appear. And Now I’m learning there’s a man named Charles Murray and that he is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT person from Douglas Murray. I went years, literally YEARS, thinking these two were the same person.

[@petermathieson5692]

Yes, yes, yes!!! Charles Murray, a man with a great deal of insight to contribute Yes... and Glenn Loury, with the courage, the backbone, the stones to talk with him.

[@ondolite3789]

Nope, Loury is a coward. Just a hustla/grifta opening our minds to racism.

[@stri8ted]

Amazing that these guys are both in their '70s. Sharp as a tick.

[@reddirtwalker8041]

Here's the scary part. Is there anyone that can carry on after them?

[@pcstew3]

@@reddirtwalker8041 Coleman Hughs is a very bright young man.

[@cosuinofdeath]

@@pcstew3 he is indeed

[@charlescaputo778]

It's great to hear the whole truth! If only we could put this on the mainstream media 24/7.

[@TheMagnificentMongoSlade]

Really appreciated how Glenn listened and let Murray explain the Bell Curve. Most of the Bell Curve is about higher IQ individuals were going to end up running society (which they did), he compared blue collar to white collar workers and the skillsets of both. It was a brilliant work and could've helped us as a society if people had listened.

[@bwake]

Except that most of the high IQ people are not running society. They run their own bailiwicks; their businesses, or their research, or their art. Their work. We all run society, together. Elon Musk could do very little if he couldn’t persuade others to help him. Yes, he pays them, but his enterprises are much bigger than his stash of cash. They have been so for a long time. His nominal ownership of them only gives him a degree of control. He needs active cooperation to do anything real. Most SpaceX and many Tesla employees aren’t working just for the money. Our real problems are with the increasing numbers of middle IQ people who have the power to interfere with us. We need government. We need the right amount of government. In too many areas we have too much government. The rules and regulations burden everyone. They especially burden those who are at the margins. And now we have people inventing social rules designed to trip people up. It’s stupid status games all the way down.

[@ognargormsby7121]

@@bwake - You vastly underestimate the influence that the petty-tyrant bureaucrats have in the federal government and how laws are made, interpreted, and enforced. Far too many of these overpaid tyrants come from the prestigious schools and that alone is why they get positions of authority.

[@daraharvey4519]

It’s because Glenn really wants to understand. He’s not pushing a narrative.

[@nealorr5086]

@@ognargormsby7121 No, I think he has (almost) the right of it. It's probably not "middle IQ people", it's probably like the 110 to 130 range, but the highest intellects are not running the government, nor are they running the HR departments of Google and Apple. People with very high IQ's are not interested in such "trivialities"; sort of a Stranger in a Strange Land symptom.

[@floritamendez3297]

High iq people have always run society so I don't get your comment

[@cathcacr]

A man ignored by the left (Loury) and a man smeared by the left (Murray). How can it not be good? :)

[@Time_to_Stop_Animal_Cruelty]

Pls don't generalize the Left. As a Korean Lefty woman lol, I've learned about Charles from the Liberals that r sooo tired of this cullt of anti-racism n wokeness. Besides, these 2 gentlemen r classic liberals.

[@DoctorHemi]

Does everyone else love the intro Glenn uses to these shows? There's something really cool about the bass music combined with his nonchalance.

[@tony-lam]

I feel the complete opposite lol

[@DoctorHemi]

@@tony-lam, lol. I bet if he ever changes it, you'll miss it, though. 🙂

[@monksally]

I like it a lot better than the Microsoft Paint illustration/animation he had a couple months ago lol. It looked like a middle schooler made it.

[@beksinski]

Bravo to Glenn for always being brave enough to do the hard thinking and have the important conversation.

[@Byenia]

Thank you so much for having this conversation and sharing it with all of us. I am a fan of both of you and greatly appreciate your courage, especially in this day and age. The personal integrity on display here is emotionally moving, and I mean that in all sincerity.

[@aejmama4111]

Fascinating interview. I didn't know the history of who Charles Murray is or the controversy surrounding him. I always learn something new when listening to Glenn. I appreciate you!

[@pathacker4963]

Good to listen to the entire conversation at one sitting. Thank you. I don’t understand the calls by the CRT people for resegregation. I just don’t get it. But the more people spit “white privilege” in my face the closer I come to wanting to avoid all “black” victims.

[@cathcacr]

"White privilege" is nothing but an idiotic bastardization of the language. Ask for it to be explained and it's only a stand-in term for systemic racism. But it's used to grab attention. Well, I grab attention right back with the phrase "idiotic bastardization." If you use the phrase "white privilege" you don't sound woke, you sound like an idiot. I'll stand firm on that.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

I don't know a single "CRT person" who is calling for segregation. But it's ironic that you say that while sitting in an all white community, sending your kids to an all white school , next to your white spouse.

[@pathacker4963]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn you know nothing about where I sit. Your premise is totally flawed.

[@pathacker4963]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZexepqshKubg9k

[@virtualpilgrim8645]

CRT isn't about segregation; it's about domination and power.

[@charlesstuart1853]

Such a pleasure to watch two active, engaged minds having a reasoned discussion.

[@Harlembrown]

This interview is why I am an admirer of Glenn and listen to him as well as read his writings. Not only was it good, in 2021 it is considered brave. I'm not about to take anything away from Glenn. It IS a brave interview. However, I'm pretty sure that Glenn also knows that it shouldn't be considered brave when two intelligent adults discuss a topic more than a little relevant not only to the listeners, but to society as a whole. For that I say thank you. The book should prove interesting. Also, slight sidebar for a comment Glenn made. Personally, I think the Christian that recognizes he is a worse Christian than he used to be should at least consider the fact that such honesty may be hiding some growth he's simply not aware of. Just some food for thought.

[@ondolite3789]

Why don't you eat that food?!! Lousy is a fraud.i

[@kityfitz]

I just love Glenn - what a superb mind and such a lovely soul. A national treasure. Support this guy cos’ he’s interested in the TRUTH. And this is a rare commodity in the present day and age. I hope for change - in the right direction and soon before we tear each other apart.

[@ondolite3789]

He is actually very sinister and a puppet whose job is to open your mind to the merits of racism.

[@glennloury3677]

That intelligence might differ on the average between populations with different ancestral descent is not an implausible claim. There's evidence to this effect. Maybe .85 - 1.0 sd at the mean for black/white. Whatever it is, it's not zero. How important is the IQ difference? That's the question, it seems to me. E.g., IQ probably correlates with parenting outcomes. (Being "smart" makes you a better parent. That's not implausible.) But if parenting classes could eliminate the difference, we'd just make sure everybody got classes and wouldn't talk about "the portion of the difference in parenting effectiveness that's due to IQ"? Now, we've got the fact of racial differences in test scores at the mean, with overlapping distributions. And we've got the fact, e.g., of a 7x higher homicide rates by race. The connection between these facts, if any, is an empirical not a moral question. Why talk about the relationship between these two facts, a person might ask, when we should really be talking about how to lower the homicide rate. I can see the attraction of that argument. Still, presumptively to deny the IQ difference, or its relevance to social outcomes, is to put one's head in the sand. To do so with a smirk, while patting oneself on the back for one's purported moral superiority -- that commonly encountered posture is becoming insufferable. (And, note well: this entire debate is independent of questions about genetics.) I agree that Murray has written casually about explosive stuff. But he has also made important interventions in the public discussion of many issues over the past few decades. You can't simply write him off as a racist. I also agree that he's weak on causal inference and micro-social analysis regarding the role of IQ. That doesn't show that IQ is unimportant. A lot turns on whether social outcomes influenced by intelligence can be altered by other means. In short, I know I should have pushed him harder. I'll do so when I have him back. GL

[@Doxymeister]

Thank you for the explanation--looking forward to the next one!

[@raeliera]

Every single comment that I put in the last 20 minutes has been deleted. Methinks that we are a long way from having an honest conversation about race. The fear that you have about the backlash from whites is well-founded. What just happened to me has happened for decades. Our thoughts and feelings don't go away just because some ears refuse to hear them. Nonetheless, I appreciate this conversation. It's the BEGINNING of an honest conversation. It took the Radical Leftists to make it possible for ordinary white concerns to be able to aired. Finally.

[@floritamendez3297]

@@raeliera no one cares baiut a white backlash. Youre not that important and KZbin is who's censoring you not Loury

[@MC-ii2in]

Glenn, I think your comment reviewing an early book, that "God isn't finished with a person after he determines their genetics" gets to the heart of the matter.

[@GambitYuGiOh]

I was writing these things above. I appreciate you being introspective and even recognizing this your self. When it comes to the white political issues, he began to be very open, use his subjective opinion, etc. I see that as a GOOD thing. On the black issues, he seemed to want to stay objective and I want to hear his subjective opinion on those things. You ask specifically about how injurious slavery and the rest of our history is and he basically says "I don't know how to do the calculus on percentages". I want him to excavate some of his views in this domain and he certainly doesn't have to be objective. I'd say it's impossible.

[@jKLa]

Environment can also lead to genetic evolution faster then many realize. Measured changes among... Italian Americans over the last 100 years proved this. It's too bad that some things can't even be typed here in the comments that are highly relevant to this discussion!

[@NanakiRowan]

Please tell and show us that the genetics of Italian Americans has changed in the last 100 years.

[@cordyone]

I could listen to you gentlemen all damn day!

[@margasnyder254]

Glenn, than you SO much for having Charles Murray on your show!!! I have been wondering where he’s been and have missed hearing his learned and wise perspective. You were brave to have this conversation. Society needs brave, strong men like you and Charles Murray and many others to use your knowledge, insight and powerful intellects to protect us from the sickness postmodernist ideas have caused. We are listening to you! We support you. And we will follow your lead!

[@user-tl5yb1jy7c]

This interviewer was one of the best I've ever seen. Insane. Will look for more.

[@LeviNotik]

A fantastic conversation. I have just ordered Facing Reality, excited to read it. Thank you for everything, Glenn!

[@jasongrosser9910]

There is a growing anger among the working and middle class Whites. I see and hear it. That group wishes the best for everyone, including Blacks. However, that group feels both neglected and not privileged in addition to being demonized. That anger is growing and if that group plays identity politics and hijacks the attitude and tactics of the BLM (or CRT) group, that could be a potential force to be reckoned with. Thank you, Charles Murray, for recognizing what I have been observing gaining movementum.

[@jasongrosser9910]

And that is as much of a problem as any other irrational, ideologically, identity-driven movement.

[@jasongrosser9910]

At 24:10, Murray starts the description of this.

[@raeliera]

I think its the answer to the problem. Why on earth are Whites the only people unable to defend themselves on a racial basis? Organizing politically so that we can have a seat at the table is the right way to solve this problem.

[@floritamendez3297]

Yes there is a lot of middle class whites who are angry at white people. Stop acting like right wingers represent the white race. Half of the white population is Liberal.

[@floritamendez3297]

@@raeliera because white people are the lens responsible for what you are crying about 🤣.

[@PhilSchmidt0628]

Huge kudos to Glenn for his moral courage and intellectual honesty in taking on the most controversial topics & arguing for what he believes to be true even when it goes against his own interests. Much love and respect.

[@jthomasstthomas]

"...beauty, charm, and industriousness..." I totally expected Glenn to claim above average in all those traits.

[@tomdivittis2688]

As he rightfully should, maybe? 😂

[@willmercury]

Glenn has definitely got it going on.

[@Doxymeister]

@Yongo Bazuk But not above average portliness. It's well-known that after about the age of 40 men begin to put on that little pot-belly and a bit of jowl. Glenn looks good for his age, I think!

[@Earthmuffin78]

Love the conversation. Glenn thank you so much for having Charles on and confronting the hard issues most avoid.

[@olsparkywisenheimer8239]

24 minutes mark.. My world is filled with these folks in my personal and business life..

[@seansmith6745]

You’re not one of them? If not, which kind of white person are you (assuming you’re white)?

[@olsparkywisenheimer8239]

@@seansmith6745 I'm one of the people that's sick of being called racist, and being blamed for everything, so yes I am. I'm not to the point of lashing out about it, but my frustration is growing. Yes I'm white.

[@olsparkywisenheimer8239]

@Don Pedro You feel for me in what way? I only ask because I'm honestly not sure if your comment is meant to be condescending or thoughtful. Don't take any offense, i just want to have an appropriate response. I'm one of those people that still enjoy meaningful conversations where possible.. Btw, I really enjoy JBP myself.

[@olsparkywisenheimer8239]

@Don Pedro I think i worded my first post incorrectly. My world is filled with these folks, and i agree with them. It was my attempt to confirm the suspicions of Charles Murray at the 24 min mark. Sentiment i shared about a week ago in another one of Glenn's videos before Murray even mentioned it. These constant accusations have made my views regress, not progress. Make no mistake, i want the best for everyone. I just don't think blaming an entire race while seemingly taking zero responsibly for your life choices is the answer. I think when you give a person a million reasons to fail, you can't be shocked when they do. I think when you can't acknowledge all the issues, you'll never solve the problem.. To me the compassion from the left plays out like "the soft bigotry of low expectations". When you expect little, that's often what you get..

[@christiancasper322]

Why is he brave?? Charles Murray is a scapegoat for presenting facts. Fellow intellectual. Brilliant men both.

[@amikkelsen]

Subsidiarity and federalism and decentralization are probably the best way to keep the country together and enable peace. People can vote with their feet. The problem is if people in DC and Center won’t allow it.

[@unnecessaryapostrophe4047]

I'd say we need to take it a step further. Cities of a certain size should be able to be semi-autonomous or secede from their respective states. Give them one senator, one House member, and two electoral college votes each, regardless of population. This way, cities won't just dominate or be dominated by their surrounding suburbs and rural areas.

[@Smithistory]

@@unnecessaryapostrophe4047 you don't need to hand out representation to everyone, you just need to put the federal government back in the box it was built for. The federal government was designed as a defensive alliance and free trade zone, the states were left with most of the power. If we went back to that it wouldn't matter much who our federal representatives are. But everyone wants access to the printing press and reserve currency status that the USD has to spend on their boondoggles, the left on the welfare state, the right on corporatism and the warfare state.

[@Doxymeister]

@@Smithistory ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ I don't think many Americans have a real grasp of what America was supposed to be--what it used to be, because we've had this massive behemoth looming over us for over 100 years now. I agree, it would solve a lot of issues if we returned to the original governance the Founders handed to us.

[@Smithistory]

@@Doxymeister yea... Even the states stayed relatively small because civil institutions were built to address social problems. But then came the "progressives" and the administrative state and hence the 100 years of bloat that is our federal government.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

Creating enclaves just tears the country apart in the first place.

[@fleekwoodmac3705]

Charles just doesn't strike me as a racist. He strikes me as an academic whose work landed on the radar of people who are not academics. He is talking to another academic (Glenn) in this video and you can tell its not detonating with Glenn as naked racism. I feel like I'm sitting in a college cafeteria listening to two academics chat about the topics of the day, their work, and the general public misunderstanding of the project of academia.

[@ognargormsby7121]

Most "academics" of racial or gender studies are not academics, they are political zealots who seek to exploit the academic title for legitimacy.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

He was on Tucker Carlson, he is racist. But forget about being an avowed Racist, the result of mainstreaming this is garbage sill be racism.

[@fleekwoodmac3705]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn Asian Supremecy? According to Murray's book Asians are the "superior race." They are smoking everyone in the IQ arena. Are you concerned Murray burns fuel worrying about the purity of Asain blood? That would be odd. You're going to have to explain to me how an old white guy with some data sets that indicate the rank order of IQ at the population level is a racist? Especially since those data set seems to indicate his race is NOT number one. Agreed on Tucker. Pretty sure he is a racist.

[@youpeopleareinsane1285]

@@fleekwoodmac3705 How do I cope with my genetic inferiority? Should I even have kids? Murray doesn't think so, maybe he's right.

[@fleekwoodmac3705]

@@youpeopleareinsane1285 When did he say that? Time stamp or rough time frame.

[@nealorr5086]

When Glen gives his booking review, starting at about 6:00 it makes me wonder if the fierce criticism that Charles has faced over the last 25 years hasn't turned him in to a flawless author. The level of scrutiny that he has to work under forces near perfection.

[@stacyliddell5038]

I think you are onto something. You have be become precise with your words.

[@lvincent8843]

Which is the argument Glen makes against affirmative action. Lower standards are analogous to lower levels of scrutiny. Disparities in the levels of scrutiny imposed on the output of individuals will result in disparities in the exposure to challenges that lead to individual improvements.

[@petkragh]

Considering that the Bell Curve leans heavily on race science supported by The Pioneer Foundation, such as the scandalously sloppy work of Richard Lynn, I would hope that the criticism has challenged him to be more rigorous in his work.

[@nealorr5086]

@@petkragh I haven't reviewed any of Lynn's studies, but would guess that 90+% of the criticism it receives is in bad faith.

[@petkragh]

@@nealorr5086 Eh, why not raise it to 100% if you're feeling speculative. Lynn's work is not taking seriously inside the academy, because it's riddled with ad-hoc cherrypicking of poorly sourced data - including tests conducted in apartheid South Africa that are used as evidence in The Bell Curve.

[@petermathieson5692]

For all the problems goodbye technology in the 21st century, it has also given us the gift of conversations between two men like this.

[@powertuber4.068]

Murray chik en d out at 41:12

[@bgandjsco1]

Every person in the country NEEDS TO SEE THIS.

[@npickard4218]

Just finished. This interview was STUPENDOUS. I love these two men! (John McWhorter too but he wasn't here today lol)

[@Successbookblogger]

Brown '74....and this may be the first time I am proud of my Alma Mater. Thank you.

[@cordyone]

Just bought Cynical Theories, really looking forward to reading it!

[@therainman7777]

It’s excellent! The only thing that makes it a bit difficult to read is the unending stupidity and sophistry of the “theories” being discussed. But IMO it is essential reading.

[@jackiekjono]

It is worth it to wade through the postmodernism but if you really can’t deal read the last two pages in each chapter where they demolish it in a sentence or two and the last three chapters which contain the best defense of liberalism and science ever

[@memeticist]

The book itself is excellent. However, the "academic" project that it chronicles leaves one feeling diminished after learning about it.

[@Joeyclubbin]

James and Helen are legends

[@anjy2l332]

@@Joeyclubbin Yes, They deserve a Presidential Medal.

[@prestoncash9294]

Wow. Mr Loury you are a dangerous man. People always talk about keeping it real but you can't get more real than reality. Great job. And the part about the illiberal wings of both parties attacking the liberal project. That phrase alone makes me very interested in your work Mr. Murray. Thank you both.

[@ondolite3789]

Dangerous but not in a good way. He is a blaq eunuch and total puppet.

[@seanmckinney9342]

Thank you Glen for your courage. Absolutely fascinating conversation I believe that if all parents would view their children as gifts from God and do everything in their power to lift up their physical mental and spiritual development that the whole world would change.

[@Hooper-fy6si]

Glenn, you were so right! Your take on helping humans is so right. The biggest problem of the “woke” is not only not helpful, it’s so harmful in my opinion

[@joeykremple]

Love Glenn. Love Charles. Love listening to conservative and reasoned intellectuals.

[@ienekevanhouten4559]

Thank you, Gen Loury, for allowing me to become acquainted with Charles Murray.

[@Ken_Churchill]

The questions shouldn't be framed like "why aren't there as many blacks in programming" but more like why is ANYONE interested in computer programming. For example.

[@bwake]

Most people aren’t.

[@Doxymeister]

@Sylvana Baptista I'm kind of confused--why is it important which person said it? I understood what he meant. And it's a good analogy ("analogy" may not be the right word I'm looking for)--from what little I know about it, programming is stupefying, boring and tedious.

[@billsimms2511]

Haha . I took a programming class once and it was borderline torture. I guess I’m glad some seem to enjoy it though lol

[@Xplora213]

@@yamishogun6501 no. You can’t ask both questions. The question why ANYONE likes programming answers the black question at the same time. When you ask why are there no black programmers, you will choose bad data sources and bad methods for research.... because there is no fair way of addressing the black question. Whites don’t need to push black programmers out, they push white programmers out AS WELL, and you can’t address that without compromising black culture... that’s actually what has happened. All the clever black programmers leave their original communities and it leaves the community without smart people to guide them in the future. That’s what happened internationally. All the smart Indians leave India. The nation is gutted. You chose to ask the black programmers question but it doesn’t lead to anything useful. You must deny blacks their culture to encourage more smart blacks to try harder. Stop blaming others for the failures in life. No one held you down. Maybe the actual holding down is due to circumstances you dislike. 💡

[@johnh3276]

Mr. Loury, I'm just now watching your address/lecture at Pepperdine a few weeks ago. So far, the content seems both relevant and important. As an aside, I'm a little worried about your breathing. As someone with a currently high BMI (Body Mass Index), I recognize and identify with some of your symptoms. I'm currently on a quest to reduce my BMI to normal levels (roughly in the 20 to 23 region). I find that as I increase my cardiovascular exercise, and slowly decrease the mass my body carries, my breathing is improving, for which I thank God! I find your talks enjoyable and edifying. Take Care of Yourself, Friend! Best, J

[@323lessthanzero]

This video is my introduction to Charles Murray. Now I must look up more videos of his. And more than likely I will be reading his book (s)

[@damosuzuki]

coming apart is a great book. prescient.

[@323lessthanzero]

@@damosuzuki Thanks. My reading list is so vast. I just put Facing Reality down and didn't look at this one. reading the summary I now thing I should read this one first LOL . Again, Thanks

[@peterlewellyn2389]

Glenn, I am not going to cancel you, I just discovered you because you had Charles Murray, one of my favorites. I will be with you in the future.

[@laineandrews9291]

It's depressing that this kind of intellectual yet common sense conversation is being had by 2 seniors in their 70s, but is not occurring among younger "credentialed" pseudo-intellectuals.

[@Nordic_Sky]

Glenn Loury and Charles Murray are both such good guys, serious scholars who add so much to our understanding of who we are and issues society faces.

[@flubby1982]

You can pretty much sum up Charle's entire history and his works within the "Grappling with the fact of group disparities" segment. It perfectly illustrates the entire point of pointing out the data and then assuming that it pretty much is impossible to discuss. Even Glen points that out to him and he simply throws up his hands and says "it was too damn hard." While I respect that because it is the truth, it does reduce the weight of his comments a bit. It would be nice as a counter to have any one of the 81 authors that wrote in the The Bell Curve Debate as many do attempt to answer this topic. With that said, Charles is a great speaker and did a great job trying to get his points across. I think Glenn did a fantastic job pushing back on some of his claims as well. Great video.

[@irrelevantpoints96]

I never come on here to agree or disagree, but to simply LISTEN.

[@terrences7022]

I applaud you gentlemen for this honest and great 👍🏾 conversation.

[@Mr.Artude]

Glenn Loury is a brave man and a great man, and I for one am greatful he exists

[@bwake]

It is possible to avoid stunting people. That is always worthwhile. Americans of Japanese ancestry are famously taller than their immigrant ancestors. Their genetics didn’t change. The different diet brought them closer to their full potential. We don’t know how much the environments of minorities in the USA stunt them. I seriously doubt that the rest of us can fix it for them. You can’t fix other people.

[@alecchapin9071]

But Obama/Biden could've at least gotten people (of color) clean water if they needed it. Here we are continuing in 2021 to stunt black and poor communities across the US. Too bad we can't spend a billion or two of that precious bombing money.

[@bwake]

@@alecchapin9071 On the one hand, most federal spending is transfer payments. The defense spending is a relatively small portion. The real problem is that there is no such thing as a “shovel ready project”, which is increasingly our problem in many policy areas.

[@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826]

@Alec Chapin nobodies "stunting" any black people in the US lol.

[@bsaintnyc]

@@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826 Only a white person could say something so ignorant. There is a pervasive anti black bias in society. It's represented in all facets of life. Its not a brick wall and overt like it was pre 1980s america but it is still there. Things are tremendously better now but it still exists. As for the environment many blacks live in environments that are high in lead paint. A heat map of new orleans crime combined with lead contamination matched up 1 to 1. You cannot say growing up in a lead contaminated environment is not damaging.

[@greenkestrel]

This is a really good discussion and touches on topics, feelings and evolving opinions that I have been grappling with over the last six or seven years. I definitely feel silenced. There is no one that I can speak with at the depth and breadth that I need. This is why I listen to discussions such as this obsessively.

[@SlyNine]

I do hate that we have to talk about race an IQ. But I think he's correct. If we can't talk we are left with racism and society as the only explanation.

[@erynlasgalen1949]

The problem really comes when we divide people into arbitrary groups, take an average of their aptitudes snd achievements, and then base social policy on those differences. I can't be the only one who has noticed rhat the academic achievement gap between 'black' and 'white' students in the US, at which we have thrown so much money and educational policies over the past few decades with no success, matches the difference in AVERAGE IQ between those groups. My immediate thought is that some factor is blowing the curve for 'blacks' and what can we change? No Child Left Behind, with its emphasis on testing has just made matters worse.

[@lr6477]

Keep pretending there isn't cultural, behavioral and performance differences between cultures (happen to be grouped by skin tone) ... Let's allow yet another 100 years roll by while we point in the wrong direction.

[@ahmedwhaji3672]

I admire Professor Loury and I don’t feel dismayed by seeing Professor Murray articulate his viewpoints and the facts presented in his books.

[@anonosaurus4517]

Charles is completely right about getting whites to speak honestly about race. Whites do not like discussing it at all, unless they're in the company of people they think they can completely trust. It comes from a combination of discomfort on the topic, with an implicit fear of saying the "wrong" thing and therefore being perceived as one thing or another.

[@KingAriston]

an "honest conversation about race," for a white person, is an invitation to have your life ruined

[@anonosaurus4517]

@@KingAriston Yep, and we need to get over it. We have a right to exist and not be treated like pariahs for every little thing we say. We have a right to an opinion, and our silence is an invitation by those who use our appearance against us to push through policies (immigration?) that hurt us and everyone else in this country. We can be silent no longer. The country needs us, frankly, more than we need it, and we should own that fact.

[@mounteverestoftheobvious1182]

@@anonosaurus4517 This country doesn't have honest conversations about anything -- let alone race: onevoicebecametwo.life/2021/05/18/two-sides-of-the-same-counterfeit-coin-part-1/

[@nomoresunforever3695]

@@anonosaurus4517 poor thing 😢

[@nomoresunforever3695]

@@anonosaurus4517 lol "we have the right to exist" you sound like some intersectionalist when they say "deny our humanity" or "erasure "

[@Soliaipix]

Nina Jablonski’s work on human skin color explains for me why we have evolved into the skin color we have. Please continue having these dialogues. It’s a benefit to us all.

[@ondolite3789]

'EVOLVED'??!! Whytes will never stop lying about themselves.

[@jennyk9748]

I've been waiting for this!

[@ginadanaher8568]

Dear Glenn. I am on your side. You CAN make a difference.

[@purpleivory2]

Great discussion. I just wish that they had covered the concept of mismatch (a la Taylor, Sander, Sowell, etc.), black students struggling at Cornell, Dartmouth, and MIT when they could have been flourishing at Stony Brook, Keene State, or AIC, for example.

[@ericlawrence621]

Yeah but they wouldnt be the superstars at stony Brook by any way imaginable. The better engineering students at lower ranked universities or just as if not slightly better than average black students at elite universities.

[@MC-ii2in]

@@ericlawrence621 So what? Isn't the point to experience the joy & growth of your own mind, and your own life?

[@MindandQiR1]

Charles Murray is awesome!!! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THIS INTERVIEW.

[@tony-lam]

What a way to start off a Friday

[@billiondollardan]

I just bought the book. Glenn says he read it in one night and that's enough of praise for me to go out and experience the same thing

[@erynlasgalen1949]

I read The Bell Curve when it first came out, and I was dismayed to see the reaction to it, which was so extreme that the entire idea of the 'G' factor was dismissed during the following decades. It is hardly revolutionary to suggest that intelligence is partly inherited and partly due to early childhood environment, which the double-whammy that intelligent parents will create a much more stimulating environment for their children.

[@lr6477]

So it's important we fix it now. Instead we pander to blm rioting and blaming whites

[@erynlasgalen1949]

@@lr6477 How do we fix it, though? You can't take kids away from lackluster parents to put them where, exactly? Institutional settings? Those are even worse. Head Start doesn't seem to show lasting results either. I think it was because the program tried to cram information into young heads so that they would test well in the short term rather than creating an expansive mind. All I know is what my father did with me -- classical music from the time I was conceived, lots of books in the house, pets, lots of exposure to nature. I had architectural blocks to learn spatial reasoning without pressure. If it fell down, I learned from that. We had this thing called the airplane game where he would take my arm and my leg in his jands and spin rapidly. I would fly until he ran out of strength. They say that motion helps the developing brain make connections. I did the same with my son. Most importantly, it involved not turning him over to day care. I had no career to speak of as a result, but there are far mora important things in life. But realistically speaking, how many children get an intelligent parent and an environment like that?

[@alexgibson2871]

I read the two offending chapters, and really didn't find anything that justified that backlash. I just think some journalists careers depend on finding dirt.

[@crumdoggy]

Glenn, thanks for your intellectual bravery in having Murray on to discuss these issues.

[@NickyByloo]

One of the most important dialogs in this day and age.

[@ondolite3789]

🐵

[@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826]

@Ondo Lite lol you've been lurking in these comments for months.

[@ondolite3789]

@@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826 Yes, I am much more stimulated by bad people than good. Bad people intrigue me and Lousy is a satanist committed to the repudiation and mockery of reality. Murray is a self pitying little prick.

[@ondolite3789]

@@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826 Shining may be a more appropriate word than lurking.

[@the_furthest_reaches]

A regression between lack of real world experience & utterly detached from reality hypotheses would reveal a very, very strong fit.

[@josuearceo2178]

Great men, Glenn Loury and Charles Murray.

[@dolesme9892]

Can't believe I'd just discovered this Prof. Glenn just today! What a conversation! What a conversation! Why isn't it on C-Span, since I'm sure CNN or MSNBC won't touch it?

[@AZWings]

It's hard (impossible?) for anyone to have an honest discussion about race in this country because we can't discuss the nurture part of nature/nurture without exploding massive landmines.

[@billsimms2511]

Yes so therefore I don’t see us ever making actual progress in the area. How can you fix a problem if you can’t even talk about it and identify what the actual problem even is?

[@lesilluminations1]

These are very difficult questions. Good to hear two intelligent, respectful people discussing them.

[@ondolite3789]

Difficult how??!

[@raymord2464]

I’ve had it! My friends have had it!!

[@based_radio]

Glenn restores my faith in humanity 🙏

[@xraydavidhr]

Kudos to Glenn Loury for having Charles on to have an honest, heartfelt, and informative discussion. Mt respect for Glenn continues to grow.

[@ondolite3789]

No honesty present.

[@PikeBishop1]

Go watch breakfast club and stick to your barbershop nonsense.

[@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826]

@Ondo Lite agreeing with you isn't honesty lol.

[@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826]

@Pike Bishop Breakfast clubs and barbershops? Why are you fascinated with those? Lol

[@shawnbrown5174]

The argument as presented is not racist. It must be the perception with which it is received that makes it thus. To degrade into hardline stances that are not open to discussion or debate on either side only multiplies intolerance and ignorance. Thank you gentlemen for being willing to postulate on the hard topics and for attempting to educate inspite of potential backlash.

[@BS-gj5ot]

Thank you Glenn and Charles.

[@trishs4503]

My “privilege” comes from the hard work and savings of my parents and their parents and their parents. I won’t apologize for that. As far as I can tell, anyone can work hard, save, and help their children financially. So thankful for the good job that my ancestors did.

[@chadjohns6955]

What a wonderful discussion. I love Glenn about as much as anyone else speaking truth out there, probably top 3 or 4 along with Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray for current political/social commentators. I am glad to see Charles and hear him for myself to find out what I already assumed, he’s not racist at all, just someone doing high end statistical analysis showing us problems that exist then getting blamed for pointing them out instead of people trying to solve the problems

[@buddhabillybob]

Glen, you're 72? You look damn good! Charles M, I often disagree with you, but I am glad that you are out there!

[@Grequierecafe]

Glen, you give me hope that a critical mass of us can understand and live with complexities.

[@karenfornwalt9929]

This is a vitally important conversation, it's exactly what was worrying me last year when Minneapolis exploded and the riots that followed, and then the onslaught of CRT EVERYWHERE. I would like to see this avenue of discussion explored even further. Bravo, Professor Loury, bravo.

[@ondolite3789]

Onslaught of CRT??!! No, it is onslaught of denial.

[@zalacainbilbao]

What a great interview. Thank you both.

[@jgp8314]

I just discovered this. Prof. Loury is a Rock Star.