The Uncomfortable Truth Behind Economic Inequality | Glenn Loury | EP 245

This episode was recorded on October 12, 2021
Dr. Glenn Loury and I discuss the Pareto principle, the economics of inequality, PC culture, climate change, race in America, IQ and The Bell Curve, intelligence vs. wisdom, AA meetings, Christianity, and more.
Dr. Glenn Loury is an American economist, academic, and author. In 1982, he became the first African American tenured professor of economics at Harvard. Among Dr. Loury’s published works are The Anatomy of Racial Inequality and Race, Incarceration, & American Values. He was elected president of the Eastern Economics Association in 2013 and received the Bradley Prize in 2022.
___________
Links
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Dr. Loury’s substack:
glennloury.substack.com
The Glenn Show:
/ @glennlouryshow
The Anatomy of Racial Inequality: amazon.com/Anatomy-Racial-Ine...
Race, Incarceration, and American Values:
amazon.com/gp/product/B08BT4W...
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Chapters
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[0:00] Intro
[01:23] Dr. Loury’s Career
[04:38] The Pareto Principle
[10:51] Market Failure & Climate Change
[11:57] The G Factor (general intelligence factor)
[13:45] Why Stephen Jay Gould Is Wrong
[17:01] Neuroticism & Divorce
[26:06] Race & Incarceration in the US
[36:16] Culture & Biology
[38:09] The 80/20 Principle
[47:20] Openness & Entrepreneurs
[49:21] Meaningful Work & Inequality
[56:35] The Bell Curve
[01:01:09] Political Correctness around IQ
[01:14:58] Dr. Loury's (Shifting) Political Views
[01:21:09] Drug Addiction & Spiritual Transformation
[01:27:10] Intelligence vs. Wisdom
[01:30:16] The Glenn Show
[01:35:40] George Floyd
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[@jkonrad]

Peterson is looking 100% like his old self. Strong, focused, energetic and joyful. What a delight to see! Welcome back, friend.

[@sajjman5924]

::spit take:: Huh? Thats "focused, energetic, and joyful" to you? 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@garymccray7822]

@@sajjman5924 Compared to how he was not that long ago? Yes, he is vastly improved.

[@garyodriscoll7988]

@@sajjman5924 he was almost dead 2 years aho

[@sajjman5924]

@@garyodriscoll7988 oh, I didn't know it was anything serious.

[@sajjman5924]

@@garyodriscoll7988 damn, didn’t know that.

[@Smithistory]

I'm hoping Dr. Loury gets a much needed bump to his podcast here on KZbin. He and John McWhorter are two very important voices on race in the US that aren't getting enough attention.

[@jimkennedy4509]

That’s because they are honest and intelligent. They aren’t going for a narrative

[@chadjohns6955]

I have been saying this any time I see either of them on any other podcast, I cannot believe that the Glenn Show has only about 30k subs, it's criminal, I wish they had 300k or 3 million, people should hear what they have to say

[@jewulo]

@@chadjohns6955 The Bell Curve mate. The more logical, detailed and precise content the content is the less the audience. The more jovial, emotional the more the audience.

[@JuliaHelen777]

Same is happening in the Netherlands. Seen the migration colonisation history, it doesn't surprise me but it worries me, especially with the movements disgraceing the already ugly past history of humans & slavery. That with so much information distortion & ignorance, breaks my heart. :(

[@lsjohn]

Yes they are, but it's knee-jerk of us (me too, I committed the sin in a recommendation I made last week) to think race is the central subject on which they can motivate and educate us. Find any conversation between them and start it playing as your head hits the pillow.

[@Destichado]

Man, what a great conversation. We're so privileged to live in a time where dialogue like this is both possible but also so easily accessible. Thank you both.

[@Destichado]

@@furerorban11 bahahahahahaha

[@MrVorpalsword]

Yes, I suspect there shall be a huge shift and re-balancing of the 'uneducated' v the 'educated'. The snobbery shall [possibly] very soon be unjustifiable. Some friends of mine who didn't go to university lap this stuff up, some of those who DID, can't bear to hear Jordan Peterson, (by reason of pure prejudice) .... more fool them. Interesting times, democratising too? well aye, let's hope.

[@kastaway2]

And yet the internet destroys. Trans chat rooms convincing children they are different because they are insecure. Racist chat rooms. One can have their current beliefs validated by trolls and evil people.

[@slamdangles]

Right? It's so easy to be educated today as long as you're willing to take the time.

[@willferguson5023]

@@Destichado Agree 100%

[@Pacdoc-oz]

I am 80 and went to University in the sixties doing science, philosophy and medicine. Listening to these two, and many other Peterson conversations reminded me that this was how we were taught at University in seminars and practicals and visiting intellectuals. Jordon is conducting an Open University of the Web and it is beyond priceless. To think critically, NOT to be critical but to listen and dialogue and analyse and test thoughts and ideas.

[@georgefontes1306]

Apparently not having Majored(perhaps a lack of proofreading/in a rush/lesser inclined to often leave comment/certainly a difference in keyboards over time) in English, Communications, etc. "Much love, respect and God bless. The demon we face is not immortal." P.S. Who the heck am I to critique Mr. Chalmers?

[@BinnyBongBaron_AoE]

I'm ashamed to admit this, but as an alcoholic, it's so inspirational to see such a successful and intelligent man as Dr Glenn Loury had defeated addiction, despite his life collapsing all around him. Thank you, so much.

[@sarkasmt2]

Don't be ashamed, my guy. Admitting you have an issue does take some damn guts. Keep up with that attitude and I believe you can kick anything you're fighting. Good luck!

[@evanray8413]

@@sarkasmt2 Ditto!

[@-ChrisD]

@@sarkasmt2 Agree.

[@chrisdunlop6649]

Agreed. I just joined his YT channel.

[@-ChrisD]

@@chrisdunlop6649 👍🏻

[@DDeCicco]

Glenn is a total class act. He's easily one of my favorite public intellectuals because he routinely shows charity and broad-mindedness towards opinions that counter his own.

[@b-radsadventures6846]

Ideology is low resolution. What a profound statement. Most people can't or don't want to do the work. You two are national treasures.

[@mattmcdonald7112]

You need low resolution ideas to have high resolution ones. As ideology is really any system or collection of ideas Jordan Petersons own 12 rules despite stating "avoid ideology" are in fact a form of ideology. It's unavoidable, when u try to avoid isms you become them, example, hate communism, probably gravitate towards capitalism, still an ism, still based in economic theory and still ideological.

[@francescofilipponio]

@@mattmcdonald7112 i get what you're saying but you are using a different definition of ideology. What you are describing are probably values (which are absolutely necessary to act) and he is probably talking about a rationally made kind of ideology like communism. A definition of ideology might be "a set of values predicated by rational thinking and shared by a community"

[@outofcompliance1639]

True but even if it was high resolution if no one in the mainstream is spreading it nothing will change, only the choir will improve.

[@emgee3057]

There IS Hope 😎🙏❤️

[@andrewboyles3412]

It's brilliant because it wraps up a complex topic in a few words that are truthful.

[@cybnblau]

Who could resist Glenn and Jordan having a predictably fascinating talk together? Wonderfully absorbing. Two precious gems. One sparkling conversation.

[@jasonleatiota1439]

Having worked with organizations that specialize in employing mentally impaired individuals and I can corroborate what Dr. P is pointing out. The challenge of teaching them to do something like rolling silverware for a restaurant, for example, was almost impossible. It’s not just the mechanics of rolling them up, it’s also having the awareness not to do specific things like pick one’s nose, or cough directly on the utensils, etc. The level of supervision required is high. But the meaning and satisfaction and joy and pride they got from telling people they were “going to work” or telling people about their job and participating in these things we take for granted was undeniable and beyond rewarding. Unfortunately that whole endeavor has been greatly inhibited by “well-intentioned democrats” who thought it was unconscionable that these poor souls were getting paid less than minimum wage and felt it was their duty to pass legislation guaranteeing they be paid “properly”. The reality is, if you have to pay them the same rate, it’s not much of a choice between someone who requires constant supervision and can produce 10% of the output of the average high schooler, so most of them lost their jobs, at least in this state. Truly saddening

[@goatface6602]

In a truly free society all those people would have jobs. I too used to think politicians were well meaning but ineffective. I no longer believe the “well meaning” part. They don’t give damn about anything but themselves.

[@mikkopenttila7604]

The right wing answer to that is to just completely deregulate everything. Which is just an excuse to allow the exploitation of workers across the board. Unlike what the far left claims, not every employer would want to be exploitative then but the ones who did would have a competitive advantage. The people you describe aren't very capable of handling the complexity of life and competition outside of work either so the right wing answer would just cause them to fall by the wayside anyways. Some combination of private and public sector measures would be needed to both prevent exploitation of all workers under the guise of helping those people and also to mitigate the risks and cost to the employers.

[@daviddub]

@@mikkopenttila7604 you use the word exploit. If they are not able to produce even nearly the same output, how is it exploitation to pay them less? Why choose that word per se? If they have higher output, then they can command higher wages. If they have lower wages, they can't command as high a wage. How is that exploitation? If you need to buy a vehicle, and all you need is a small two-seat car to get back and forth to work are you going to pay the price of a business purpose Semi-truck? Is it exploitation for you to expect to pay less for your two-seater, or is it more likely exploitation that someone expects you to pay the same price for a Honda Civic as for a Semi-truck, for the sake of feaux equality?

[@mikkopenttila7604]

@@daviddub Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough: in my example the right wing types would use the pretense of helping those people to push for deregulation etc. to drive down the wages IN GENERAL. That's where the exploitation is. It's to weaken the bargaining position of the whole working class under the guise of helping the mentally impaired. As for the mentally impaired specifically, they can't command wages that would allow them to pay the rent for example. They also aren't in the best of shape to manage their money outside of work. To employ them in a humane setting therefore requires a combination of public and private sector action. And for the right such a thing as "public sector action" shouldn't even exist.

[@seaslob2820]

Please name the restaurant so I am sure not to eat there. Gross!!!

[@waltersargent6951]

I was one of Glenn Loury's students at Harvard back in 1987. The name of the seminar, as I recall, was "Economic Analysis of Racial Inequality in the U.S." I loved this man, and was stunned by the truly shocking revelations about his personal life just as he was about to become, as I recall, the Deputy Secretary of Education in the Reagan administration. After that, he seemed to disappear from view. Much later, he emerged at other institutions, expressing very different views, particularly about matters of race and, somewhat surprisingly, religionr. He eventually found his way to Brown University. Having watched his podcast on a number of occasions, I've bees delighted to discover that he is still the man I knew 35 years ago -- super smart, unafraid to speak his mind, modest (he can run intellectual circles around most of his interlocutors, but he treats everyone politely and doesn't show off his erudition), genuinely open to different or evolving views, and charmingly good-natured with an easy smile. Glenn Loury remains one of my academic heroes. I hope that he has a long and productive life; he speaks simply and persuasively about some of the most incendiary issues of our time. So good to have you back, Glenn!

[@Pinkugirl]

Thank you for sharing this! I am a much bigger fan of his than his buddy John McWhorter

[@SmallBobby]

@@Pinkugirl I love to hear discussions from both, but I give a slight edge to McWhorter.

[@rp3436]

I know plenty of educated fools...this is one

[@fz7694]

​@@rp3436Meaning?

[@hubriswonk]

I have heard him say on another podcast that while teaching at Harvard he would go into the hood and hangout on the streets to feel like a "bad MF".............and he states he did this for years. Hard to believe why someone so brilliant would waste their time doing such things to compensate whatever he felt was lacking. I suspect he no longer feels the need to hang out on the streets to feel justified.

[@DanManahan]

"I'm keenly aware of how politically incorrect this conversation is we are having" 1:02 Best quote to sum up what a productive conversation sounds like today! Great discussion.

[@johnboughen3064]

PC, a trickle-down weaponisation of language, allowed to manifest and grow beyond reason, purely to mold and conform the masses into a political will not within their best interests, via fear, persecution and legal prosecution.

[@MIchaelGuzman737]

Don't read this wrong!! this is not to brag but to motivate!! I’m glad I pulled through, despite the crises. I am retiring next yr at 55 with 3 houses paid off worth 4.5 million . One is my place of residence the other 2 properties will give me $80,000per/yr rent . I will have an income stream of $20,000 per yr through my super which gives me total $100,000 a yr to live comfortably . I have no debts ... Stay Motivated!!

[@CynthiaByrd648]

You have done great for yourself. I understand the fact that tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, but investing today is a hard thing to do for me now because I have no idea of how and where to invest in. I would be happy if you could advise me based on how you went about yours, as I am ready to go the passive income path.

[@Americanpatriot723]

That is so amazing, I’m trying to get onto the housing ladder at 40. I wish at 55 I will be testifying to similar success..

[@MIchaelGuzman737]

Credits to "LISA ELLEN SHAW", she saw me through the process. You can look her name up on the internet and verify her yourself. she has years of financial market experience.

[@Americanpatriot723]

@@MIchaelGuzman737 Thank you for this amazing tip. I verified her and booked a call session with her. She seems Proficient.

[@sophiesmith5922]

​@@CynthiaByrd648Well, it requires money to start with.

[@Outlier-db8sq]

I love Glenn! Clicked this video immediatley. He is such an intelligent man and respected economist that speaks clearly and understandably to someone who never went to college. I appreciate his honesty and consistency to truth. Both Jordan and Glenn are individuals who refuse to succumb to false or misinterpreted notions of reality. Keep speaking in the name of truth and others will be inspired to do the same. Thank you both.

[@freddieoblivion6122]

Thought the same thing - oooo SCORE. THAT's a dynamic duo.

[@py_a_thon]

This discussion is a level of epic that I am not sure will be understood for a long while. People joke about the intellectual dark web? This is possibly a moment of game theory level equilibria that was expected yet could be potentially have been blocked as a result of neo-era chosen ignorance. Interesting and intelligent people talking is something that some people wish to prevent. They have failed. They have failed entirely.

[@TheNas45]

Guys, just stop it! You like Glenn mostly because he berates black people 99% of the time. And mostly you folks are MAGA conservatives.

[@ladyfaye8248]

There are sufficient tasks to be undertaken which require no more than a basic level IQ, to provide employment for all who answer to that description. It's social structure and willingness that is required to facilitate the provision.

[@py_a_thon]

@@gregkirk1842 Nah. This is just how people properly exercise the variable traits of disagreement in the context of academic discussion. Conversation is an ecosystem and interruptions can often serve an important purpose. Glenn recently spoke to Sam Harris(for example) and he interrupted him more than a few times. The result was often a more narrow and stringent form of explicit communication. Glenn even managed to get SamHarris to elaborate well enough to hit a flow state of logic and human expression(in my opinion).

[@goodtalker]

Watching this vid prompted me to put my own "two cents" into this conversation. I worked in adult education in a California state prison for 25 years. Nearly 100 percent of my students were either black or Hispanic. Interestingly, I never once met one who thought of himself as a victim. On the contrary, if I heard it once, I heard it hundreds of times: "I put myself in this place."

[@christiansgrignoli3351]

I'd imagine they have much time to reflect and take responsibility. I wish they had the family structure and opportunity that upper middle class had though...

[@goodtalker]

@@christiansgrignoli3351 Again, another common comment was something along the lines of, "My brothers are officers in the military and my sister works for HP. I'm the screw up." Thanks for your remark.

[@smario2820]

Interesting remark on victim identity or lack thereof when faced with an imposed period of self-reflection. It's an under explored area I'd like to learn more about. I've observed victim identity in allot of people including myself and thankfully, through being conscious about it and becoming more open to deep learning, I've been able to improve my outlook, I am much less nihilistic. Trauma is a hyper-complex issue as are the ways we could learn to 'deal' with it and looking at both sides is always important. Do you write publicly about your experience teaching inmates? - if so I'd love to read it. If not, I'd encourage you to do so. Greetings from London.

[@elitecoaching4927]

I worked with addicts and sex offenders for last 20 years, they play the victim, it’s the way they could protect their egos. However, when they felt they could be forgiven, did their own trauma work, then they were able to take responsibility to heal. On another note, all poor people who were incarcerated for the last 25 years are victims to a corrupt, money driven, abusive CJS system. I felt the best way to help was to help individuals in the system stop being pons and finish parole successfully.

[@goodtalker]

@@elitecoaching4927 IMO, everything is driven by profit, corrupt, and potentially abusive. The best antidote, again IMO, is to see all "systems" for what they are and change oneself such that others no longer see you as prey. This begins with you no longer seeing yourself as prey. Simple hypothesis, but not easy.

[@sherpalou]

Professor Peterson strives more than anyone I have ever heard to be truthful and to say exactly what he means. He deserves every respect

[@james.atkins88]

Some economists have projected that both the U.S. and parts of Europe could slip into a recession for a portion of 2023. A global recession, defined as a contraction in annual global per capita income, is more rare because China and emerging markets often grow faster than more developed economies. Essentially the world economy is considered to be in recession if economic growth falls behind population growth.

[@Believer292]

Emotionally-charged decisions to sell off large quantities of stocks or other investments now lock in your losses, removing any chance for future growth.

[@hunter-bourke21]

A 2022 Northwestern Mutual study found that 75% of U.S. adults admit their financial planning needs improvement. However, only 29% of Americans work with a financial advisor.

[@edward.abraham]

@@hunter-bourke21 Very correct; the bear market has contributed significantly to the growth of my investment. I was able to quickly increase my portfolio from $180K to $472K. Essentially, I was just doing as my financial advisor instructed. You're good to go as long as you get competent assistance.

[@Kim.beneteau]

@@edward.abraham Would it be okay if I asked you to recommend this specific advisor or company that you used their services? Seems you've figured it all out.

[@edward.abraham]

@@Kim.beneteau “Julia Ann Finnicum” is the coach that guides me, She has years of financial market experience, you can use something else but for me her strategy works hence my result. She provides entry and exit point for the securities I focus on.

[@kenwahler3277]

Im glad Glenn Loury and John McWhorter are going more mainstream, been listening to them for years.

[@angourie444]

HELLO, I LOVE YOU LADY

[@FiremarshalM1]

Agree Ken! When Roland Fryer's research 🧐 came out and then (the powers that be) TPTB came after Roland, Glenn and John's coverage was (I felt) the most compelling.

[@JonasCraftUltimate]

Add Coleman Hughes to the list and we have the intellectual black web ;)

[@FiremarshalM1]

@@JonasCraftUltimate I see what you did there.

[@chadjohns6955]

Absolutely, I am always blown away that the Glenn Show still has less than 30k subs, so underrated

[@sindarpeacheyeisacommie8688]

Glad Doc Laury was honest about the messes in his life. Makes him a real person, not just an articulate talking head. Also, it is inspiring to see a man of such formidable talents turn his powerful abilities against his inner demons.

[@sheilafield4545]

He’s a treasure!

[@OGMann]

This is what I tell people, constantly. You can turn your life around if you are truly driven to do so. It takes effort, and determination. It takes work. It can be done. Quit waiting for someone else to fix your life for you. Bootstrap it.

[@sheilafield4545]

@@OGMann 100% agree!

[@cloud-dragon]

I liked this part the most. Honesty is the best thing that can happen in any discussion.

[@beryl6ful]

So true. This is a quality sorely lacking in a lot of intellectuals

[@AjaxDGonzo]

I hope Peterson gets more guests like this, thoughtful ones who ask their own questions. That is what separates the interview from a conversation.

[@mikeg3439]

I haven't had the name Pareto Principle in my vocabulary or education all my life, but I sure as hell observed it at work. Even a couple times when due to lack of ability, I was on the wrong side of the equation on it.

[@dougcarey2233]

Well mathematically speaking, you're always more likely to be on the wrong end of it than the right end. That's essentially why it sucks. A lot of the time it's really down to luck. The match that starts the campfire will always be the last one you strike, and it'll always be responsible for the majority of the heat/light produced. Unless it's defective, the match has little say in the matter.

[@shockshotz]

correct me if im wrong but i remember one movie that was talking about bees or something close to it, you need the lazy bees around to motivate the hard working bees to excel at what they do, if you removed the lazy bees then the hard working ones would just become lazy, this could be an entirely different thing but its the first thing that came to me when i heard it

[@56jasa]

​@@dougcarey2233 It's interesting that you use this metaphor. In context of the model of creativity as was also described in this video it's even more interesting. You know, the whole creative process. Making a huge amount of stuff or attempts and then eliminating the unsuccessful ones. This is also how evolution works with its mutations or how machine learning evolves. It's all the same thing, it appears. It's interesting if it's also this way at the level of whole societies. You mutate successful forms and the drastic majority is defective and unfit and die and the few better off lucky mutations work out. It's an interesting way to bridge together Pareto and the creative process at least in my opinion. Would be a bit humbling if all of humanities were based on mere serendipitous triumphs and tautological inferences from thereof.

[@cjrock4096]

​@@shockshotz Bee drones have a primary purpose. Foraging food, attending to others, and cleaning are neither required nor demanded by the colony. Drones only purpose is to die while enseminating a new queen. Drones that fail to fulfill that purposes will be drug out of the hive in the fall and die from exposure.

[@StripedBass-vq6vz]

From a therapist's perspective, Glenn Loury is such a great model for how to conduct an internal dialogue. Anyone who's familiar with his work knows that he frequently engages in Socratic dialogue and will "iron man" opposing viewpoints. Notice how he expresses a genuine curiosity in JP's POV as a humble, inquisitor. Such a great thinker worthy of emulation.

[@beemo9]

Loury is great at seeing both sides of an issue - a skill many lack. Wish Jordan had talked less and encouraged more input from Glenn.

[@chromebooktest1128]

"Notice how he expresses a genuine curiosity in JP's POV as a humble, inquisitor. " Yes, i did.

[@fstjeanm]

Loury is a pure, intelligent, scientific mind with a genuine curiousness for truth. Highly refreshing from what we are used to see which are people with a political agenda.

[@pkirkham25]

@@beemo9 I disagree. I've not listened to or seen Glenn before, but I was captivated by what he had to say. It never felt like he was spoken over or not given enough time. Where I would agree is that at times it felt as if Glenn might have had more to say, but he was naturally reserved and without a further prompt from Jordan, we didn't get to hear more. The flipside is that it meant the conversation covered a vast array of topics. Fascinating to listen to.

[@chromebooktest1128]

@@psychcowboy1 dont try too hard.. you might pull a muscle

[@antisocialjustice]

It's a rare pleasure to watch smart people discuss potentially politically incorrect topics in good faith

[@the2ndcoming135]

Well, yeah. Although not everything they’ve touched on holds my interest on a personal level.

[@lucaschihuahuas]

More politically incorrect please. Woke is dying...can you hear wokes last breaths?

[@af5433]

@@lucaschihuahuas Woke is dying? Really?

[@lucaschihuahuas]

@@af5433 yes...you'll see...

[@mpelgudmir]

Don't know how I missed this one until now, but this is such a fun pairing. I feel like Jordan is at his best when he's talking to someone who knows more about a subject than he does, and I could listen to Glenn Loury talk about making a peanut butter sandwich for an hour and a half.

[@alanbrooks8579]

Beautiful discussion between two very intelligent men who truly care about the plight of humanity. We need much more of this.

[@f1fnatik]

This conversation is just so good. Two adults at the top of their fields discussing important subjects, both listening and imparting knowledge to one another and to the audience. Just brilliant.

[@Nobody-Nowhere]

How is Peterson on top of his field? He is a clinical psychologist, he has published in total of 5 papers.

[@clifearls9330]

This is how adults should behave.

[@michielkarskens2284]

@@Nobody-Nowhere you are right. He fails to mention neither he nor Loury fit the square rule.

[@sparxy1968]

@@michielkarskens2284 You are both armchair pundits!!! What credentials have you got to even come close to the level of the two intellects here? People like you are hilarious. I wonder how many times Harvard invited you to complete studies with them lol? Not many, I suspect 🙂

[@Dr_Proteus]

How many active clinical psychologists can you name? One. JBP

[@jeffyboyreloaded]

the fact that this discussion is free is mindboggling

[@justindunlap6009]

No doubt. It’s the positive side to the fact that your data and your attention is a viable product for social media companies. Yet another double edged sword

[@designthinkingwithgian]

your time and attention comes at a "price"

[@Unpopular_0pinion]

It amazes me that quality content like this is free and readily available to anyone with access to the Internet. What a time to be alive

[@RunBayou]

You can really see how Jordan's interview style has evolved. He definitely did a a lot of talking in this one and more recently he's done a better job of getting the guest to talk.

[@danzigvssartre]

He was worse before??? Self indulgent fool hardly asked his guest a question.

[@bishopheahmund2664]

Glenn Loury is a real genius. He inspired me to study math and economy

[@daylily32]

Parasite here...this is NOT a response from Jordan Peterson...this worm did the same 2 responses to me...

[@Bisquick]

So by "study math and economy", do you mean justify US corporate empire's continued global "full spectrum domination" hegemony along with its imposed neoliberal finance capitalism (as opposed to industrial capitalism, which at least has to produce something, a bug not a feature to wall street demons) via the absurd continually falsified bunk conceptions legitimized without merit in neoclassical econ? "Fun" fact: the original conception of "free market", in classical economics meant a market _free of rent_ , not as essentially a market free _for_ rent extraction/usury, as it is culturally understood to mean now, thanks to neoclassical econ's conflation of all market interactions as productive, regardless of if they, you know, fucking _produce_ anything (see: FIRE sector, finance, insurance, real estate - that bot above me knows what I'm talkin about lol...) _"Kelp was never augmented by human industry. The landlord, however, whose estate is bounded by a kelp shore of this kind, demands a rent for it."_ - Adam "father of capitalism" Smith, ch.11, Wealth of Nations making the through-line point of _all_ classical econ (David Ricardo/John Stuart Mill, et al. up to Marx who merely took their analyses to their logical conclusion; tendency of rate of profit to fall for example which is central to Marx's crisis theory, also highlighted by Smith, ch.6 in WoN if I recall; profit itself illuminated by Marx to be essentially rent extraction of the difference between value produced by the worker structurally usurped by the capitalist inherently in the employer/employee class dynamic, see: "surplus value") that has been lost to a palimpsest of historical revisionism (much like the actual ideas these figures argued for, Smith advocating industrial capitalism's productive elements and outlining clearly its progression into socialism with guidance from the state that Marx extended, in other words more a protosocialist than a proponent of capitalism if one, you know, _actually reads_ what the dude wrote, imagine that), that the "rentier class" is an unproductive parasitic strain of social bondage achieved via natural monopoly or structural exploitation as rent is by definition value extracted _without_ value produced, a clear contradiction to the justifying logic of "the market" and a vestige of feudal social relations (hence the term "landlord"). Anyway, if inapplicable and you're just studying regular math and exploring many conceptions of econ and not like maximizing "efficiency" (capital accumulation) or whatever bullshit as per the unquestioned assumptions of neoliberalism which dominate the field of "economics", feel free to disregard (I mean really, even _if_ applicable feel free to disregard, don't really care lol, just making the point); unsubtle implied point of course being that far from "genius", the dude sucks, explains nothing, entirely an appeal to the authority of nature aka naturalistic fallacy, a conflation of what "is" (descriptive) with what "ought" to be (normative) aka incoherent reactionary bullshit. But hey, what did I expect, this is Jordan "I'm on the verge of crying at all moments" Peterson afterall. _“The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas.”_ _"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air_ [Metaverse/NFTs/Crypto/finance/tech bs, all unconsciously undergirded by global US corporate empire entirely taken for granted], _all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind."_ - some guy, a bit optimistic at the end we wouldn't just choose individual delusion while the planet quite literally burns around us... _"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently."_ - the late great David Graeber

[@Berzerka]

bar his comment about his glasses😂

[@andrewkarsten5268]

The fact that doctor loury has been willing to shift and reconsider his beliefs through his life shows just how thoughtful he is when looking at these issues. It’s really great to see, we need people who actually think about the issues and not just follow their party, which is exactly what doctor loury does

[@quartqwertbudisgood]

The mark of an honest man

[@tolearntoaskisthattrue6086]

Ya think so? Read my reply above and think again.

[@andrewkarsten5268]

@@tolearntoaskisthattrue6086 what?

[@darrellshoub7527]

Absolutely.

[@tango_uniform]

It doesn't take a doctorate in econ from MIT to understand why inequality is necessary. If janitors and brain surgeons made the same amount of money, who would take out the trash and who would operate on people?

[@SteversIO]

Sharing his story about addiction and the halfway house brought me to tears. Thank you Jordan for introducing us all to this beautiful human being, Glenn Loury. We all have lessons to learn from him.

[@barbaragray7883]

As a special ed teacher, I ran into this a lot. Technological advances have removed many of the basic jobs that used to be available to those people who have limited intellectual capacity. We need to be willing to create opportunities for these people. Some basic cleaning skills, and sorting skills can be done by people with these limitations. But we have to choose to keep such positions available.

[@freethebirds3578]

TBH, we also need to be willing to do much more for people who are not able to care for themselves. I know a 40 year old man who is mentally and physically disabled. He is unable to communicate and totally dependent on caregivers. Unfortunately, his caregivers are his parents. They could not bear to see how badly he was treated at nursing homes and institutions. They had him at several (I think 5) different facilities in 9 months because of the poor treatment he received. The facilities wouldn't feed him because they said he wouldn't cooperate with them when they tried to; he is unable to do what they demanded of him. They withheld medications, saying he didn't need them. They did not clean him and left him in filth until he parents came to see him and demanded it. Finally the parents brought him home. They could get in-home nursing, but what Medicare pays for is agencies that send drug-addled "nurses" who are just as bad. When any of this is reported to government regulatory agencies or law enforcement, complaints go nowhere. Lawyers will not touch the case. We must find better ways of dealing with people who cannot function in average, "normal" society.

[@RadarHawk52]

Well, there is always Congress....

[@prolaxbro4474]

Love Glenn. A free thinker and a professor. Not just any professor but a professor who reads and respects Doctor Thomas Sowell.

[@MidwesternCoon]

@@psychcowboy1 you don’t. Capitalism runs on greed and selfish motives. Instead of trying to be rid of greed the simple thing to do is to try and find ways to increase competition (and expel cronyism) so everyone can practice their greed in a fair system. Greed and selfishness in a capitalist sense isn’t inherently a bad thing, it’s when that greed is backed by powers of the State which allows some to negate the forces of Free market economics while others feel the brunt of it. I.E. Amazon being considered an essential business while Small/Mid size companies who do similar things were forced to shut down during Covid. That’s cronyism at work.

[@brahtrumpwonbigly7309]

@@psychcowboy1 prevent monopolies

[@MidwesternCoon]

@@psychcowboy1 increasing tax rates on wealthy individuals does not regulate greed, it entices the wealthy to dodge taxes even more than they already do. There’s a reason why higher tax rates doesn’t equate to higher tax revenue.

[@MidwesternCoon]

@@psychcowboy1 ….. bruh I didn’t list the “benefits” because there are no benefits. Lmfao my guy if the wealthy dodge the higher tax rates (something they’ve been doing for a literal century, maybe pick up a history book?) all those beautiful benefits you listed wouldn’t come into fruition, UNLESS the high tax rates fall onto the middle class who don’t have the knowledge to dodge said taxes. Which then refutes the strange claim that smaller businesses will now have more spending power, seeing their customer base will now be paying the taxes created for the wealthy. Rent control or “stabilized housing costs” doesn’t increase spending power, if it did you wouldn’t be considered broke as shit if you only make 50k in New York, a heavily rent controlled city. I’m still confused as hell on your logic of increased taxes on the wealthy somehow turning into more spending power for small businesses. That’s a wild ass claim that isn’t supported by ANY historical evidence.

[@MidwesternCoon]

@@psychcowboy1 wait lmfao if the middle class are just as smart as the lawyers wealthy individuals hire to evade egregious taxes….. why wouldn’t the wealthy ALSO EVADE the tax rate hikes you’re proposing…? Didn’t think that far huh? Second note, are you seriously telling me that avoiding the average %2.8 increase in rent costs is enough to all of a sudden give you the spending power to enact in activities??? As if the same inflation that causes rent increases doesn’t also affect home owners????????? 3rd note mostly all small businesses that fail see this failure because A. They don’t have a business plan B. Poor management C. Failure to understand their customer base D. Trying to do everything themselves. You must live on Earth 315 if you think the average %3 retail rent increases are the reason smaller businesses fail at the rate they do. Maybe when the economy is shut down due to poor Gov administration leadership but uh….. how often does the US economy shut down like it did in 2020? You know what, don’t even answer that. I’m obviously speaking to a child who thinks very highly of themselves simply because people don’t agree with their shite logic. I love to entertain Beings who have extremely dense brains so yes please show your friends who more than likely also share your shite logic (none of these insults had to be written if you just came to the discussion in good faith).

[@yatesfletcher1424]

I'm so glad Jordan has recently arranged conversations with Glenn and John McWhorter. These guys are very articulate first rate thinkers, and they have important things to say about contemporary issues. I hope these conversations raise their profiles. They deserve a much wider audience than they appear to have.

[@MUST-TRT]

Agreed and of course. However, in order for these types of speakers and educators to have larger audiences and a bigger following, we need more of the types of people willing to learn and listen and to think more in depth about these complex issues. We need more people who truly want to hear opposing and yet valuable potential solutions or views on topics such as these from sources(like these two amazing men) that take effort to truly digest. Most people unfortunately, and as I'm sure you know - don't care to think much. Especially about the validity of an idea or view that opposes their own.

[@janecoleman6450]

Blogging Heads, The Glenn Show, is another great conversation. Glenn and John are great.

[@mygoditsfullofstars7220]

​@@psychcowboy1 Peterson often makes unsubstantiated presumptions about what this group or that group thinks and how they live. It's enervating to say the least.

[@Astheros]

I knew nothing of these two professors. So glad i watched both their discussions. Brave individuals to say the least.

[@yatesfletcher1424]

@@psychcowboy1 "No one will face it. How do you know this?" Well for starters we conduct public policy as if it isn't true, and anyone who points it out is branded a racist.

[@starbright5236]

Jordan, Sometimes I don't comprehend the complexities of your Topics but I'm addicted to learning and your intellectual conversations stimulate me. Thank you for being humble and thoughtful in your words. Thank you for saying and discussing topics that SHOULD be discussed. Plz keep up the good work and continue to stay strong amidst the critics.

[@VeganChefRon]

So fascinating to hear two brilliant people discussing complex issues without agenda. Two people wanting the best for people and referring to research and facts. Could listen to them all day long.

[@SeleckPlays]

My only disappointment is that it's not longer. LOVED the discussion! Thank you Dr. Peterson and Dr. Loury!

[@seaslob2820]

Yup. It is like a great movie that you never want to end.

[@wingy200]

I think this exact thing about most discussions on JBP's channel. I love Joe Rogan's format of some conversations lasting 4 hours long, but I get it. The topics discussed can be mentally draining.

[@seaslob2820]

@@wingy200 It leaves you wanting more. Which means it is the Goldie Lox of podcasts. Just right!

[@daithi1966]

I was supposed to go to bed an hour ago, and even though I could stop and play this conversation at any time, I couldn't help but watch the whole thing. I'm a fan of both of these men.

[@spill1t]

Very same and I'm quite ill too so they kept me up and kept me suffering for the whole engagement.

[@jimsibley1651]

What a phenomenal interview - that was an astounding amount of serious and thoughtful conversation in a single go.

[@TommyEngdahl]

Im proud giver of $1 a month since 2018 for such quality content. Can surely say, after divorce 2017, that without finding you 2018 and plowing your videos for 3 weeks in swedish hot summervacation, i would not have gotten myself out of PTSD from childhood abuse awakened by divorce. Thank you with all my heart Jordan❤

[@Simon53188]

Honest conversations are bloody brilliant. Makes me happy.

[@saxon8981]

Blood

[@organisationxiv2927]

@@psychcowboy1 Oh look. Sour grapes.

[@HiNi.]

both John Mcwhorter and Glenn are some of my favourite people on this earth, so glad to see you talking to both of them!

[@staticregret829]

Two individuals expressing themselves, explaining their points, taking into consideration the other side, then taking a moment to process what was said. Discussions like this are needed to help improve the mindsets of others. Thank you both for your contributions.

[@mcnyregrus]

Jordan has been going on many rants lately, so it's nice to see him again talk about such a factual topic with Glenn Loury, who's just as focused on the topic. And this episode was also in many ways a good compilation of the various points Jordan (and Glenn) has made on the topic.

[@michaelsullivan723]

Very excited for this. Glen is an insightful commentator and it's been really fun and interesting to see you delve a little bit more in economics. I will also echo the many requests for you to talk to Thomas Sowell and would highly recommend his book, A Conflict of Visions. I think you would find it deeply interesting.

[@grecojones]

Unfortunately, I think Sowell is on the decline cognitively.

[@michaelsullivan723]

@@grecojones Given that he's in his 90's his cognitive abilities have no doubt declined substantially but relatively recent interviews show that he's still sharper than most and unless his mental functioning has taken a dramatic turn for the worst, he still has a wealth of knowledge and insight to share with the world.

[@angourie444]

HELLO, I LOVE YOU LADY

[@angourie444]

@wendigo GET OUT OF HERE MATE

[@mowleed2000]

@@grecojones He’s still sound just speaks a little slower hey let’s remember he’s been around since ww2

[@jondoh2226]

I really enjoyed this conversation. I like how it seems Glenn is easy to communicate with. It seems like he is focused on sharing understanding of ideas rather than just getting wrapped up in minute details the way many others do.

[@tim72184]

He's recovering nicely from his bout with RIS.

[@kmdn1]

I wish more conversations were like this. people forget that the point of conversing on these topics is to share ideas and insights to have better understanding between two people. It's so commonplace for a "conversation" on media platforms to just become a pissing contest- which is not only boring AF but it's not useful to anyone

[@sajjman5924]

Seems like it.

[@sajjman5924]

@@kmdn1people are conversating like this all the time dude. you just got the warm and fuzzies listening to a disconnected black dude and a Canadian nobody calmly dog whistling for one and one half hours. You would rather roll around and some thumbtacks than listen to people calmly, slowing talk about police shooting and killing unarmed black people every day.

[@johnmalcolm4822]

Does the Free Market really exist? Are consumers so accurately and uniformly informed (and so seldom deliberately misinformed) t hat their decisions are rational?

[@desedawg8862]

My two favorite people. This conversation went over my head right after I clicked. I still listened, hoping to get smarter by osmosis.

[@KingDavid-jj7tk]

Even the high net worth and ultra high net worth people worry about money, just in different ways. There's no way around inflation. There's no way around recessions. Stop looking for a solution that doesn't exist and invest more money. Major indexes booked their worst yearly performance since 2008 thanks to drivers like the recession, war, hiked interest rate and inflation which so far doesn’t seem to be easing off, so I’m left wondering what 2023 has in store for us investors, I’ve been sitting on over $745K equity from a home sale and I’m not sure where to go from here, is it a good time to buy or do I wait?

[@biankabrodeur-yf3yl]

Find a way to take advantage of the current market condition, it seems that we are moving in the same direction as Venezuela and that will not be good for anyone.

[@Emily-le2op]

@@biankabrodeur-yf3yl I don't base my opinions and choices in the market on rumors and hearsay because of these market uncertainties. I lost control of myself in 2020 and found myself in an unprofitable position in the market. I had to restructure my entire portfolio with the help of an advisor before I began to see notable changes in my portfolio. Whether there is a bull market or a bear market, both produce good profits; it just depends on where you look. I am still working with the same advisor, and in just two years I have made over $1.5 million.

[@Emily-le2op]

@@patriciamartin10 Renowned for her proficiency and expertise in the financial market, “STACIE KRISTAL WEBER” my financial advisor, holds a broad understanding of portfolio diversification and is recognized as an authority in this domain.

[@jbarker2160]

It's always the time to buy, but choosing what to buy is the issue. And remember: It's easier to make money selling financial advice than by following it!

[@davidpetersonharvey]

Also, find a way to restrict and/or counter mass marketing that pushes a generational, materialistic culture of self. You're not necessarily poor if you can't afford the latest iPhone. My wife and I ditched our debt years ago. It was terribly difficult but our lives are much better for living within our means. We worked hard, paid off my parent's house and life is much easier as a result. We need to build generational wealth instead of generational debt slavery.

[@imperfectious]

Skepticism and pushback without insults or emotional outbursts. I'm as pleased to see these two blow past that bar as I am disappointed that the bar as been lowered to that level. Thank you, gentlemen.

[@seraph...4473]

Wonderful comment. Completely agree.

[@seraph...4473]

@Mamba No I think you just described the pareto principle perfectly. The reason that so few people are generating half of the output is that we dont have access to very many people that are even interested in the high level professions. So the few times the people that are interested and really really good at it coincide they have a massive bump in productivity.

[@seraph...4473]

@Mamba Nothing I said had anything to do with exploiting the workforce.

[@seraph...4473]

@Mamba what if they are being compensated appropriately for their productivity? Not saying they are, but what if?

[@imperfectious]

@Mamba More like "high productivity = better chance of surplus", which can be used to provide more goods and services to more people than low productivity would.

[@user-ml2iq7wj1o]

This was hands down one of my favorite interviews of the past year. Outstanding. Wish I could hit the like button 5 more times. I hope you two get to work together more in the future.

[@beaolmos2293]

@@psychcowboy1 Listen to 1:37:19 carefully, where the guest its explaining his view about the George Floyd's situation. And then later on, Peterson analytically synthesizes the view in a couple of sentences explaining how it is a 1:42:07 ..."careless conflation of levels of analysis. Because a high resolution of analysis of structural problems in the penal system and to cram that George Floy event in the same narrative it sort of bespeaks of indifferentiated thought..."-Peterson. And then they both point out about the danger of racializing crime events. And how some (low resolution) people use those narratives to continue their racial sentiments. Deep thought IMHO.

[@ayevaboo]

@@beaolmos2293 English is not my first language and alot of things is hard to understand. Could you please explain to me what they mean by resolution in people?

[@ActionAlligator]

@@ayevaboo By 'low resolution' or 'high resolution' people, they mean people that aren't looking at the full breadth or range of factors that contribute to any given outcome. So, for example, I can look at a statistic that women, as an entire gender, get payed less than men; a low resolution conclusion might be "well, the reason women make less than men overall is because men are sexist and they keep women from that capital"; comparatively, a higher resolution conclusion might be "well, the reason women make less than men overall is due to multiple factors, some of which may be sexism, but also may be due to the differences in interests between men and women, the much higher pressure on men to obtain (financial) status than women with regards to sexual success, the differences in education attainment by the sexes, the differences in pay negotiation abilities between the sexes, the differences in full-time vs part-time distributions among the sexes, and so on and so forth". High resolution attempts to account for ALL the factors whereas low resolution oversimplifies it. Did that help?

[@ActionAlligator]

I liked the conversation too, but I wish Jordan would interrupt less and allow Loury to talk more.

[@Vizaru]

the good news is that if you did click the like button five more times, you still liked the video!

[@michaelohair3715]

This is a beautiful exchange with the very remarkable Dr. Glenn Loury.

[@Bader1940]

I love Glen's story about AA. Thank you. It saved me too.

[@djsparkyy]

"I'm not sure I understand the answer to the question, but I understand the question...." What a beautiful moment in this discussion! To not only be intelligent but to be self aware of your own ignorance about yourself AND to discuss it publicly is not a common trait.

[@JScottCee]

That trait is one of the guiding principles of the Age of Aquarius. Dig it, Flow it. ✨🌊

[@krystofon]

@@JScottCee Gee, it must take sooo big balls to say : i dunno. It escapes me how mediocrity can be so amazing for anyone.

[@JScottCee]

@@krystofon Balls balls balls balls balls balls balls balls balls balls balls STEEL balls. In public discourse, yes.

[@texdad91]

Great discussion. 23 years sober here and I continue to be humbled by my character defects to this day. Ego deflation is so important for my sobriety. I am my own worst enemy and willingness and action each day to align myself with God’s Will is my challenge.

[@TheDuncskunk]

I'm 8 years sober and that lines up with my experience.

[@rareartists]

Simply a beautiful thing to watch. You Love To See It. ✨🤝

[@elizabethwinsor5140]

3 yrs.... No alcohol - different world.. M

[@caralho5237]

i'm 17 and cant get off the computer to do my homework

[@jay_motocombat]

Some of the most difficult topics that exist are discussed here, not to mention the most politically dangerous. What a great job both of these men did navigating through this potential mess. Without looking at these issues there is no hope of understanding how we progress from here.

[@maxmustermann3938]

The Pareto-Principle is the 80/20 rule - the square root thing is called Price's Law. They are different. There is also Lotkas Law, which specifically is a better match in the example of authors and papers written. Different kinds of phenomena follow different types of these distributions.

[@annottobay]

I can testify to the notion that academic types have very little encounter with people at the lower cognitive level. I passed an exam at 10/11 year old and went to a special high school, I basically only dealt with people from my high school until University. Once again in university my encounter was largely with my academic peers. I graduated and went into a government job at a technical level and then into banking and investment. In between I worked jobs as a teacher. At age 27 I left Banking and Investment and started to manage a manufacturing and distribution business, it was not until then I started to really meet people at the lower education level and it was a rude awakening. I might have read or heard about literacy level, and cognitive abilities etc. However, I did not really begin to encounter and have to engage with people that are really challenged mentally. I subsequently left that job and once again I was out of that world. I can only imagine people who from an early age are predominantly, working with mostly, intelligent people and continue that encounter into there early professional life and remain the same throughout their professional and social life. They can easily lose touch and will just not realize a side of society that you really do not know much about.

[@audreya8325]

Yes you are so right. Well meaning folks think they know what jobs my disabled son can do and what he should be paid without ever meeting much less working with people like him.

[@ziplokk1453]

Well said and my experience is similar to yours except I'm likely significantly older than you. My life took a different trajectory 10 years ago when I was 46 and had reached a mid-life crisis where I felt my "contribution" being an engineer and a manager in industry was at the very least, deficient, as a human being and especially as an intelligent one. I quit my job and went on the search for more meaningful employment and landed first in vocational rehab working for state government and for the last six years in administration for a psych hospital. Providing services for people on the left end of the curve saved me from going into a depression. Service is key to our humanity and while I'd heard those words paraphrased during my youth it never took. I had to reach a crisis to make the transition. And yes, the ignorance of society in general as to the depths and breadth of the problems these millions of people face is breathtaking. And yet, they seem quite capable of expressing their opinions about them.

[@bradodilo7569]

The point about Jordan's response to Dr Glenn when he said..."it's the careless conflation of levels of analysis..." opened my world. Thanks, as always Jordan!

[@pelinoregeryon6593]

@@psychcowboy1 "said something that makes sense?" it's rare that he doesn't, so I'm guessing the answer to your question is yes.

[@danimal118]

@@psychcowboy1 your comments are always boring and idiotic. Why do you troll Peterson?

[@danimal118]

@@psychcowboy1 you're an ideological imp chasing someone around. You need something better to do. I've read many of your other posts and you are conceited and not worth listening to. You need to deal with your own b******* before you take someone else's on.

[@pelinoregeryon6593]

@@psychcowboy1 Meh, you're just a troll, I rattled your chain because I felt like playing, but you took to long to reply and the moment passed 😁🤗

[@jacoblehrer4198]

@@pelinoregeryon6593 You respond like a leftist

[@GiovanniV69]

This is an absolutely amazing conversation between two incredibly intelligent people. Very powerful conversation. And thankful to finally get all the way through and find a new intelligent and wise speaker; Glenn Loury.

[@123mjolie]

Such an amazing conversation!!!! Thank you Both gentlemen!!!!

[@markemerson8399]

Jordan Peterson, I'm so happy that a person of your learning and intellect is speaking on these topics.

[@angourie444]

HELLO, I LOVE YOU LADY

[@workhorse7134]

He should also have on Taki contributors David Cole and Steve Sailor. Seems like he only talks to one skin colour when it comes to this topic which is disappointing however last few times I listened to Glenn he was finally coming around to the reality of the issue unlike his co-host who still will not accept reality and continues to wallow in the usual victim narrative.

[@markemerson8399]

@@psychcowboy1 Maybe not according to you, but ... yes.

[@patrykjaniak7042]

@@markemerson8399 IT was sarcasm, Peterson appears intellectual even in silence.

[@JT-iw2cw]

Dr. Loury, your vacillations between political parties is a reflection of your honesty and openness to new ideas. I find your journey inspiring, and touching. You brought me to tears in under a minute.

[@michaelmcgaughey4441]

This discussion was truly awesome.Thank both of you so much.

[@thewonderinggentile]

Glenn Loury is a testimony...come on America-- LET'S GOOO.

[@Anteflop]

Stoked. Glenn is one of my favorite speakers. He has such a way with words.

[@davidkennedy6184]

Prof. Peterson’s explanation of the correlation between income inequality and male aggression/involvement in the illicit drug trade really hits home as I see it in my community.

[@AndyJarman]

I'm always quick to point this out, testosterone has the propensity to enable people to act in a recklessly assertive NOT aggressive manner. Reckless assertion appears to women to be (and probably is) threateningly aggressive. But to male peers, reckless assertion is 'rough and tumble' sparring. For example - antelope rutting make a lot of noise, but it doesn't end in the sort of damage you might anticipate from the violence of the action on display. It sorts the men out from the boys, and demonstrates which males are most likely to assert themselves when the herd is threatened by predation. I'm concerned this interpretation of banter, flashy display and ribaldry has been labelled 'aggeession' and the peer to peer understanding of the self imposed limitations of this behaviour (a 'clean' fight) has been lost. Perhaps this has happened because boys have fewer role models (Hollywood having replaced dad). Perhaps because women are assumed by default to by the courts to be more responsible parents that men - even after the boys begin entering manhood (aged 10 years?). Perhaps because women are now taking a more prominent role in public debate and policy creation and are higher in Trait Agreeableness and Trait Neuroticism. I do think the equating of assertion and recklessness with violence is a problem where young men resort to guns and knives instead of integrity restraint and bare knuckles to settle differences. The devouring mother archetype, versus Fight Club.

[@thestickninja]

@@AndyJarman Profound lucidity. Well stated. Thank you.

[@schuylergeery-zink1923]

Interesting… I’m a woman who is running for office. I see the place for assertion is in play - kids should explore and get rough and tumble and imagine. We can always agree to a fight if we want to as adults but that should be clear, bc my community many of us carry firearms. So we assume everyone has one. Treat everyone with respect and do not escalate a nonreciprocal situation.

[@emilianosintarias7337]

@@AndyJarman And perhaps because the economy has moved somewhat from industrial production to services and communicative workplaces like calls centers, restaurants, offices, shops etc (which are also mixed gender). This would advantage feminine attributes.

[@ThagSimmons69]

@@AndyJarman I think this might be linked to something in one of JP's older interviews. The breakdown of the family unit and the advent of smaller, often single-child households, with more diatant relatives seems to be reducing the ammount of socialization between the sexes at a young age. IE: More women in society that dont understand men very well due to a lack of male siblings and real/healthy father figures (leading to women being afraid of men, mis-identifying behaviors, or just being incapable of empathy because of the improper socialization), same thing with young men and sisters/fathers (sometimes mothers, but the lack of a peer of the opposite sex definitely feeds into the devouring mother archetype by limiting the socialization and example relationship to one with a power dynamic). Which becomes a self-perpetuating problem very quickly and breaks down social structures as it does. Because people raised in those circumstances are going to have a horrible time trying to properly socialize themselves and build families and are very likely to produce more children outside of a family structure as a result.

[@shaneroberts9368]

Fascinating discussion! Thank you to both of these brilliant men.

[@DMan-pf6qp]

What a wonderfully informative conversation! Thank you!

[@sozo5]

Brilliant men with brilliant insights. The conversation has moved me a bit toward the middle appropriately. What we stand to lose in the ideological war is something neither side wants. Finding that common ground and common goal to find agreement on could bring us closer to some resolution. We must preserve freedom at all cost in the process.

[@Artisticer]

Well said!

[@Mr196710]

The Great Reset will ignore all sides and do as it wills.

[@seekrengr751]

When you said "bring us closer to some resolution", with the end of the discussion fresh in my mind, immediately surfaced Jordan's observation of the other meaning of the word "resolution" in the sense he used it. It seems a lack of high resolution thinking cripples problem solving, in that shallow thinking leads to simplistic "solutions" like racial attribution. It would seem psychology shows real factors are typically much more personal. When Glenn Loury discusses issues from economic or sociological level, individual behaviors are aggregated with a corresponding lack of personal resolution; when Jordan Peterson looks at the issues from a psychological viewpoint, and even more so from a clinical viewpoint, the same issues dig deeper into individual motives and actions. Maybe the required complexity will be attained to enable real solutions to problems when more clinical insights are used to analyze societal behaviors. High resolution thinking for real problem resolution.

[@RyuuRider]

@@seekrengr751 So, put in layman's terms, precision of language and how deeply and broadly you analyze a problem are two important factors of problem-solving? It seems almost too obvious when put that way, though. :P But yes, strongly agreed. For example, the issues with "Social Justice" bullies: I have seen people saying we need more bullies in schools to combat the bullies already tyrannizing things. I believe what those people intend is for more *assertive* people with maturity and principle rather than just more bullies. Those kinds of statements can absolutely derail discussion due to the imprecise speech- or a lack of consideration for the problem and the consequences of their proposed solution to it.

[@jpjeon3143]

Why is going to the Middle necessarily the solution? There is, after all, something called the Middle Ground Fallacy.

[@chuksamajor3020]

An outstanding segment featuring two public intellectuals. Hearing Glenn discuss his very human struggles strengthened my respect for his accomplishments.

[@chuksamajor3020]

@@psychcowboy1 Haha. I guess that depends on your philosophical leanings.

[@erikaoliver2591]

@@zaphodbebop105 how did he lie about the bill? Let's see you back up your ramblings with facts and sources, preferably straight from the horses mouth. But don't worry, I won't be holding my breath.

[@erikaoliver2591]

@@chuksamajor3020 ignore these trolls, they just saw a little too much of themselves in the discussion about the problem of those with low IQ. Also, agree with your original comment. When you hear about someone's struggles, it's easier to see their humanity, it makes everything they say more engaging. That's what's missing in our virtual world.

[@chuksamajor3020]

@@psychcowboy1 I didn't hear much new ground in what they had to say about the topics they covered per se. Both had already covered most of the topics they discussed at length. It was the revelation that Glenn overcame personal demons before achieving his current prominence that resonated with me.

[@chuksamajor3020]

@@zaphodbebop105 I'd love for you to expand on the claim that JP lied about Bill C-16. But even if you did, it's a non sequitur.

[@superunknown70]

Listening to the conversation between the two of you was a pleasure. I'm thankful for the food for thought it has provided.

[@electranspower]

He is amazing… What an amazing conversation!!

[@tazldn6463]

Glenn Loury is one of the most important voices in the modern Western world and someone who ought to be listened to.

[@Freedom17762]

Cleaning my place while listening to the greatest conversations of our time. Thank you Jordan and Glenn.

[@agathachris9722]

Same

[@themotofixery]

What a pleasure to be able to listen to these gentlemen. Thank you!

[@thestonemaster81]

I love the deep intellectual conversation thank you so much

[@templar1229]

Truly looking forward to hearing more wise words from Jordan Peterson and Glenn Loury

[@David-uy4jz]

@@psychcowboy1 everything Peterson says is intelligent

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

@The Molecule FX boulder The only thing harder to watch than Jordan’s idiocy is a smug attention hungry “intellectual” who replies to dozens of comments to trigger his half wit fans. Makes my toes curl to see it. (and not in the good way)

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

@@psychcowboy1 Thomas the Train always tried his best. As he treaded uphill he was hopeful that he would make it to his destination. However, along the way he ran into a terrible dilemma. One of his wheels had broken. Thomas’ wheels kept spinning and spinning. The harder he tried the more overheated he became. Each push led him deeper and deeper into despair as he came to the realization that all his efforts were going to be in vain. Thomas couldn’t look at himself in the mirror after that. All that energy he poured into spinning his wheels turned into shame and self hatred. What he thought was in good fun became a black hole that sucked up his identity. Is this what he has become? Reduced to a broke machine whose wheels spin but never take him anywhere? Let’s hope Thomas can get some help. Maybe one day his wheels will spin properly. Maybe then his efforts will actually be worth something.

[@iamlovingawareness2284]

@@psychcowboy1 lol you’re cute.

[@Opalbird1]

Wow, Glens story of how his education blossomed made me so tearful. I also had a bent for math and also physics. When applying for a college to obtain an engineering degree, I was turned away even though I had top marks in high school, because I would be the only one of “my kind” and they thought i would be uncomfortable. That was 1974. In 1978, I tried again for a different course, was accepted, was the only one of “my kind” in the class. It was a short course 4 weeks in length, and as I expected I again excelled. In fact I finished my assignments so fast, that I helped and explained the course material to another student who was having difficulty on a regular basis. I achieved the top marks on all the exams given but at the end of the course, top student was given to the person I had been tutoring and I was told to be quiet and accept the results as they would give me a different award to make me happy along with my picture in a local paper. I was to never speak about the corse results or it would affect my career. I then applied to medical school, went for an interview and as soon as they saw me said to me “you will not be accepted to this medical school unless both of your parents are doctors. “. I asked if this was normal for all students and was told “no, only people of your kind”. What “kind” am I you ask? Female

[@TeaPourSixFour]

🫶🏻 Thank you for your testimonial story. The ‘70’s.. I am a female born in 1978. I hope your work has been more well-rewarded & respected since what you described.

[@annschrimsher5183]

I just want to say thank you for pushing yourself into a world that resisted you. You and other women like you have made it possible for women like me to have an amazing life and amazing opportunities. I can remember watching the Donahue show where women would come on and talk about how hard of a time they had in the business world. I am an electrical engineer starting in the 90's. I have never had a door shut to me. I have got almost every job I have ever applied for. My dad taught me how to negotiate, so I usually made more than my coworkers. I have no doubt that I would not have had the freedom in my career that I have had, had it not been for women like you. So again, THANK YOU!

[@donnakemper3333]

I so enjoyed this discussion. Like a breath of fresh air.

[@g.c.3339]

Awesome! Intriguing blend of economics and psychology perspectives. Both of you were captivating speakers on complex topics with story-line backgrounds. Thanks so much for sharing this conversation, despite how much I have to re-think and analyze my own beliefs.

[@ninatigi6713]

The fact that I listen to and sometimes even understand smart people makes me respect myself.😊👍♥️

[@andrewwood7303]

It wasn’t long ago that it was technologically impossible for so many of us to enjoy the meeting of minds at this exquisite level. So exciting to pay careful attention to every word and drink in the wisdom. To describe this as elating is an understatement. Bravo, gentlemen.

[@mygoditsfullofstars7220]

@@psychcowboy1 Again we agree!

[@sheilafield4545]

These podcasts are so incredibly important to educate people on critical thinking. Both of these great thinkers are coming from completely different backgrounds…yet both are still standing & thriving in the public realm!

[@WifeOfTheBeast]

I love Glenn Loury! So glad you both talked!

[@f1hotrod527]

Love the discussions with Glenn Loury and Coleman Hughes.

[@Andantalas]

I'm less than 15 minutes in and loving Dr. Loury. This is AWESOME.

[@Andantalas]

@@gregkirk1842 Thanks, I just subscribed.

[@BattleBro77]

Literally just watched some of Glenn’s debates and this pops up, noice.

[@tobyw9573]

What a wonderful, useful conversation, thanks!

[@fishad09]

Productive conversation...this is the second time I watched this full video ..I got smarter just watching two smart people talk.. good job you two. Thankyou..I got value out of my 3 hours total time spent and would probably watch it agian and still feel like time well spent.

[@keirongillespie6913]

One of the best conversations I've heard from any two people in a long while.

[@billyv2210]

I'm an agnostic - but have to say God Bless these two gentlemen! Brilliant, insightful, relevant conversation between two geniuses that is the exact opposite condescending. Bravo!

[@jesssanchez7567]

Wow. I'm so glad to have listened to these two.

[@kfrb1]

Love this. What a treat to hear two brilliant thinkers converse.

[@paddleed6176]

Love that you're talking with Dr. Loury.

[@carpenanne]

I have a 30 year old son with an intellectual disability. It is difficult, I am understandably concerned about his future and I have no answers. Love your youtube and all these discussions.

[@davidsherman7531]

Absolutely fascinating. I was overwhelmed with excitement and hungry for more.....

[@shakaguru1896]

Glenn is awesome!!!! Excellent conversation!

[@michaelcasey7057]

There were perhaps more points of agreement than Jordan realized and so he spent more time clarifying and defining terms than was actually needed. I'd like to see them together again, where then can skip the first principles calibration and get right to it. Glenn is a powerhouse thinker and at his very best when he is ranting a little. Let's see round two gentlemen.

[@jonbaker9804]

This has made my night. May have understood 10% but great to be able to listen to great minds share ideas. Learned so much.Thank you guys.

[@Sacarat]

I have to pause it and think every so often (or more).

[@bradsmith6966]

Thats because only 10% of it actually makes sense

[@X.Calibur]

This is a lecture or lesson like everything else in an educational institutions. No one grasps it fully from the start unless you already familiar with all the concepts, lingo, logos and definitions. You need to take notes and listen several times in order to fully grasp what these two gentlemen are trying to say.

[@mike8595]

@@bradsmith6966 mah vague criticisms

[@jimmontgomery7950]

What an awesome discussion between two intelligent people who listened to each other and work to an understanding. This needs to be emulated more in not only academia but in all parts of society.