Paper Patching For .577/450 Martini-Henry

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

Nice work Chap! I sense a build up to something thunderous and smokey....

[@dbmail545]

The Chap is getting into it! I never had any idea what went into paper patches.

[@roadpanzir]

Your black powder programs are just great, they have inspired me to start shooting my old .50 cal Lyman again and I just ordered a Pedersolli Gibbs .45 for the fall season, as another viewer stated it is really nice to slow down the shooting process and relax-thanks guys!

[@thebotrchap]

Slow and methodical. The key to BP shooting

[@HypocriticYT]

I use a straight sided .458 bullet mold which works fine and 24 gauge shotgun brass casings. Midway USA has shotgun brass casings for $1 each. Use 577/450 Lee dies to convert the casings. I use linen paper to bring diameter to .469 and it's stronger. The hole in the base was originally to allow the skirt of the bullet to bump up and engage the rifling since the bore is not parallel but tapers from the breech. 85g of BP gives an original load, lots of noise and smoke!!

[@Former0311]

Good video Bloke.

[@adriaandeleeuw8339]

Oh to have my father's firearms collection now, I do remember a Cavalry Martini Henry but also in his ammunition collection several unopened brown paper wrapped packets tied with string of . .577/450 Dum Dum rounds as well as various loose rounds, I remember those loose rounds having a white paper patch. Sadly after his death my mother sold off the collection I was only eleven (I am 60 now) , the only saving grace is that I know the firearms went to collectors as the dealer she sold them to was a great collector himself! He also had an immaculate Lithgow SMLE that he used to shoot Queens rifle match (so I am Told).

[@renngretsch]

'Grab your pokey thing of choice and just force it in' tremendous!!!! Have a like!

[@thebotrchap]

We like to play innuendo bingo!

[@ralphwatten2426]

@@thebotrchap Innuendo, not my endo.

[@kenibnanak5554]

This is interesting. So, essentially a paper patched bullet is an early discarding sabot projectile. I hadn't thought of them that way, but since they are consumed and don't stay with the bullet down range, that is what they do and are,

[@thebotrchap]

The real intention was leading prevention and wear reduction but in my view it also functions as a sabot.

[@oorcinus]

And a non-paper-patched bullet is an extremely early discarding sabot projectile. So early the sabot gets left behind before entering the barrel.

[@westcovinadodge]

Sorry for beating up a dead thread. Psst, buffalo arms has a .459 480gr copy of the kynoch hollow base in pure lead. 23 bucks a box. Thanks for the video Chap.(still waiting for the shooting vid)

[@missingthe80s58]

Obturation. That lead expands and if the alloy is properly tuned to the black powder charges ability to upset the bullet (depends on brand, grade and weight), the two work in balance to upset the bullet right up to the patch. This ensures the patch stays on. It is impossible for the bullet to just slip out of the patching. I used to worry about it. Then I opened books written 1870-1880 and learned there are physics at play with the old bullet designs that are truly brilliant.

[@nemisous83]

according to Britishmuzzleloader the paper patch was added not to act as a sabot but rather to prevent lead fouling from the projectile. this was the case on pretty much all British rifles that used a non-jacked bullet. I wasn't until I think the mk ii .303 round that they moved away from paper patched bullets and black powder all together.

[@thebotrchap]

Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Yes, the intention was to reduce wear and fouling, but mechanically what you have is a sabot-like arrangement, i.e the paper is the mechanical interface between rifling and bullet and the patch should strip from the bullet at the muzzle. The use of hardened lead started the phasing out of patching and jackets finally killed it off (aside from the Swiss GP1890).

[@nemisous83]

The Chap thank you so much for replying to my post, one more question where did you get your brass? is it plentiful over in Europe? because over here is about 140 USD for 20. That's why most people here in the states and Canada reshape 24 gauge brass. shot cups.

[@thebotrchap]

The brass is Bertram and is expensive over here too. I've had it for about 10 years and yet to lose a single one so the high investment was well worth it.

[@nemisous83]

The Chap like I stated above it might also be good for you to get some magtech 24 gauge shot cups, because Lee makes some sizing dies, the only work you will have to do is just trim the neck after resizing. that's at least how I resize my brass. I might start making some paper patch rounds with the original brass foils cases.

[@thebotrchap]

I have 30 Bertram cases that will last me a lifetime. Since I only have one M-H I only partially neck size my cases so they are never overworked. It's nice to know that other options are out there though.

[@john-paulsilke893]

There's something so therapeutic about black powder. I really need to get another ball and cap pistol and have some slow and proper dirty shooting. Shame of it is since I live in the city I mostly shoot indoors and for some odd reason they aren't very happy with BP guns. I may have to buy a rifle instead so I can shoot legally in the woods or on a private farm, (laws in Canada prohibit shooting pistols anywhere other then licensed ranges).

[@thinkfocus]

Nice! I am trying PP for a 500/450 No 1, 2 3/4" BPE, been recommended Bienfang Graphics 360 paper which is said to be 100% rag, 60gsm.

[@danm7298]

i just bought my first martini henry. should i go with the lee mold 45-70, .457 diameter 450 grain mold? and .457 sizer? and use paper patches to get to approx .465 diameter? i heard if not using patches to go with .462 diameter bullets

[@robertmckinley4825]

I have often wondered which direction the paper is rotated around the bullet ? Most barrels have a right hand rifling twist.

[@mpetersen6]

I'm curious about one thing. How does the .577-450 stack-up to the .45-70 or any of the other black powder cartridges used in the single shot rifles of the 1860s to 1890 that were in military service. As opposed to things like the Sharps .50-90/100/110. Of course any of the black powder rounds being used by militaries then were more than powerful enough to do the job required. And this is not about the relative merits of the Martini vs the Werder, the Trapdoor Springfield, Remington Rolling Block etc.

[@wrxs1781]

Well done.

[@Theairsoftnerd]

hello bloke on the range

[@jameshealy4594]

So this is how I make untraceable super-duper sniper rounds, right?

[@thebotrchap]

Shhhhhhhh....

[@kyleno4mk27]

Excellence! Hope there's some juice M-H footage coming up!

[@thebotrchap]

Most probably. I won't be doing an English vid on the loading process since it's essentially the same as the one advocated by Rob over on Britishmuzzleloaders. I will do one in French though as there is not much French language info available.

[@Toolness1]

I think paper patching would help me out with some of my 8x56R M95 carbines. They tend to have large bore diameters even on ones with nice bores. Most slug at .331 and I have one that slugged at .332, yet the Lee mold and sizing die is .329. Silly! I tried opening up the Lee sizing die to .3315" and powder coating the bullets to give them extra diameter, but they still lead the bore like mad. Accuracy is decent until the lead builds up, which doesn't take long. I'll never understand why Lee chose .329 and not at least .330. Good luck getting much accuracy out of a .329 cast bullet in a .331" bore! I have no idea how to design the patch dimensions properly though, so I have a lot more reading to do. Unfortunately I don't have anyone who lives near me that is much of a reloader...

[@wierdalien1]

Toolness1 british muzzleloaders has some good paper patching video

[@bravesirrobbin6865]

Toolness1 paper patching to an oversized bore can work, but you can run into chambering problems. where the case is now to big for the chamber. anything about .003 over original bullet diameter you can run into this problem. of course it varies by rifle.

[@danm7298]

Can you use a paper patch if your bullet has grooves in it?

[@BlokeontheRange]

yes

[@danm7298]

@@BlokeontheRange Thanks i just bought a mk2 from IMA im going to buy the .457 diameter 450 grain mold and .457 sizer. it looks like you used to be able to find 468 molds and dies but those have been discontinued or are expensive and hard to find.

[@Toolness1]

I wonder how it would work if you soaked the patch in Lanolin/Alcohol mix that some of us use for case sizing. That way your patches would already be lubed...and would dry quickly too.

[@thebotrchap]

Probably, the question is whether the alcohol would affect the structure of the paper. In my load there is a beeswax cookie behind the bullet and I usually dip the bullet in udder cream just prior to firing so there is plenty of lube going down bore as it is.

[@JReed305]

11mm Mauser was another paper patch Euro loading.

[@herrmauser1066]

Is it possible to paperpatch a monometal bullet like 277 to 284 etc?

[@alainwelonek2036]

Great video, When you are patching which paper do you use

[@betaich]

Shouldn't you call the workshop bits chap in the shop or something like that?

[@thebotrchap]

Usually yes, I got confused between BoTR and CiTW and after many takes ended up with BiTW....

[@betaich]

Ah okay, well nevertheless great video.

[@wierdalien1]

The Chap well that could have been worse

[@wayneheern9595]

So very similar to the technique I use for rolling my own cigarettes with ungummed papers.Ha!

[@pyssysankar1]

Is it possible to dry those patched bullets with food dehydrator, without negative effect on loaded cartridges? I dehydrate my wet thumled brass with it and 3 days of drying is done in 1,5h with dehydrator.

[@thebotrchap]

I wonder if the paper would grip the bullet as tightly if dried fast. Care to try it out for us?

[@paulvanheerden2642]

Hi Paul here. I would love if you can make us a clip on how u actually sub the patch with the beeswax. Man I can not get it right

[@Strato50]

Have you ever been blessed by the nightmare that is potential modern paper actually being fairly abrasive? Clays and other fillers are rampant, such as in regular printer paper.. I've never used anything fancy in my Martini but I'm looking for upgrades. ...also I seem to recall years ago reading that one should NEVER wax or grease the outside of the paper itself... not sure why. In my mind that'd alleviate most concerns of paper 'wear'..!

[@McGuireJJ]

For drying could you use a dehydrator or dehumidifier to speed the dying process?

[@erg0centric]

If you don't mind a little lead in your food dehydrator.

[@MrSvv78]

quite a bit of work for each shot.. Teflon tape , the one used to seal pipe thread - works very well. Cheap, easy to get, easy to wrap and doesn't damage the barrel.

[@leewilkinson6372]

Holy smokes! Does this actually work???

[@MrSvv78]

@@leewilkinson6372yeah, been loading 71/84 mauser, Berdan #2, springfield trapdoor and a martini like that for years.

[@leewilkinson6372]

@MrSvv78 nice, thanks!! I like cheap easy and effective! Hell, I'm all 3. 😆

[@christophergreen5002]

Are the Chap and the Bloke brothers?

[@thebotrchap]

Nope, not even from the same country 😉

[@ralphwatten2426]

Tape?

[@juanmacias418]

I tend to use what I have on hand and can say good ole masking tape will work... As long as you shoot them quickly,(less than 2 months)if they are stored the glue on the tape tends to deteriorate quickly....

[@alainwelonek2036]

Excellente vidéo Question: si le diamètre de la balle est supérieur à 466 , est ce que tu a besoin de patché la balle

[@thebotrchap]

Tout va dépendre des dimensions de vôtre canon. Pour le tir sans patch à poudre noire j’utilise 0.001”- 0.002” supérieur à la profondeur des rayures.

[@alainwelonek2036]

Le diamètre de mon cannon est 467

[@thebotrchap]

@@alainwelonek2036 Ça devrait aller sans problème. Ça ne serait pas possible de patcher 0.001” de toute façon. Il faudrait partir d’une balle plus petite.

[@alainwelonek2036]

@@thebotrchap Merci beaucoup pour tes excellent avis J ai encore beaucoup de questions, ce sera pour plus tard

[@thebotrchap]

@@alainwelonek2036 Je n’ai plus de Martini Henry mais j’essaierai de te répondre. Je recommande le forum tircollection.com aussi pour des conseilles de rechargement d’armes anciennes.

[@kpadmirer]

I just used masking tape, works fine.

[@lorneholtzclaw4505]

Cool

[@EddieTreat]

Is that an Accutron Spaceview?

[@thebotrchap]

It always draws a crowd ;-)

[@brancaleone8895]

Thumbnail looks like you have a cake haha

[@ilikepoland2637]

I'm confused, you just use printer paper and not some special type of "patching" paper?

[@thebotrchap]

Yup, no fancy expensive stuff necessary. What is most important is the thickness of the paper and whether it bumps up the bullet diametre to what you need in a minimum of two whole turns.

[@ralphwatten2426]

11mm Mauser

[@ralphwatten2426]

Tape?

[@RodolfoGeriatra]

Noice

[@versal339]

Yaa not much useful information. See "Britishmuzzeloader." On how to do it right. Wrong paper, should have addressed rifling twist direction and keeping the patch on the bullet is not the reason for a tapered bullet.

[@thebotrchap]

Dear Mr Batesel, please breath deep and relax ;-) As you say yourself, there is plenty of info elsewhere for the diehards and I also consult "Britishmuzzleloader" like the legions of people interested in these period firearms. This is "my" method using the paper "I" wish to use. It gives me the results I want and that's what counts for me. The purpose of the tapered bullet design is indeed not for keeping the patch on, all I say is that a handy consequence of the taper is that the patch is able to grip the walls of the bullet more efficiently, which it irrefutably does.

[@usualsuspect5173]

Paper just has to be strong with a grain, back in 1800s they used cotton rag paper because that's all they had..