Blood Meridian - The Judge on War

From Cormac McCarthy's novel Blood Meridian:
It makes no difference what men think of war. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.
War is God.
- Judge Holden

[@madflavour831]

"Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner." Imagine ever writing anything as good as that.

[@BilltheButcher1855]

Mad Flavour McCarthy is a literary genius

[@carloschris2792]

....."Men of God and men of war have strange affinities." A history of mankind in ten words.

[@matthewmcchesney9828]

Seriously. Cormac McCarthy's status as great living novelist is unparalleled; no one stands anywhere even remotely close to him as a storyteller of imaginative literature.

[@genuinesaucy]

Cormac McCarthy is the kind of writer that makes you think, "what the hell is the point of even trying? I couldn't possibly ever get this good." I love him slightly more than I hate him.

[@boxmad5523]

“They were watching, out there past men’s knowing, where stars are drowning and whales ferry their vast souls through the black and seamless sea.” McCarthy is the real deal, the imagery he evokes in one sentence is spellbinding.

[@boxmad5523]

“Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge, exists without my consent” That is one evil bastard!

[@benjaminhuntergreen7142]

What does he mean by this?

[@greggaygayakutami1402]

@@benjaminhuntergreen7142 Holden's conformation bias

[@greggaygayakutami1402]

@Mike Ross should? Hell no especially with how irresponsible we are.

[@boxmad5523]

@Mike Ross full context is given in the book, he’s one of the most evil characters you’ll come across in any book, great villain.

[@hadeskiller1]

@Benjamin Hunter Green He equates knowledge to control many times, I think. And he values control over everything. He drowns the puppies he buys but then saves the idiot when it accidentally slips into the water.

[@mendelevium2768]

Everybody gangsta til they read: The judge smiled.

[@crimsondynamo615]

When the judge smiles, an Angel loses its wings and falls to earth dead.

[@wadewilson8011]

Then the Earth quakes, poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of heaven shake!

[@cowboyschad5x778]

Stop making Reddit tier comments this book deserves better than that

[@theloweffortchannel7211]

But he is always smiling. You only noticed.

[@LordVader1094]

​@@cowboyschad5x778This book is made for people like Redditors.

[@justcomments1239]

The judge is definitely dancing in a lot of places in the world right now :(

[@lazyquahog9385]

As long as humanity exists, the Judge will also exist. He never sleeps. He never dies.

[@George-real]

He’s the devil of course he’s probably in the Middle East or the Sahel bounty hunting

[@Slime_Owl]

This​@@lazyquahog9385

[@TheKiddingStar]

@@lazyquahog9385 Before even humans walked, sat waiting patiently lay - The Judge

[@timm7185]

"He dances in light and in shadow and he is a great favorite. He never sleeps, the judge. He is dancing, dancing. He says that he will never die."

[@toaster9922]

“Every child knows that play is nobler than work.”

[@mossymoose8920]

The narrator deserves a raise for being able to read this so fluidly

[@Ciipher5113]

Helps that McCarthy himself hardly punctuates his own work lol

[@noahrodriguez293]

His name is Richard Poe

[@razmatazz9310]

@@Ciipher5113 That's one reason why it is not easy to read.

[@photowriter29]

Dick Poe is the man. He can teach AI everything it need to know, lest humanity ever need to suffer a good book narrated poorly.

[@ChibiViolin]

​@@Ciipher5113Yeah he didn't give a damn about the reader. Both inspirational and annoying.

[@ThePsycoDolphin]

This is probably the most philosophically astute and intelligent defence of what is, ultimately, mindless killing ever made. But golly gosh, to say a phrase like "war is god" would make Nietzsche wince in its iconoclasm and utter contempt for all usual human precepts. It's fucking phenomenal.

[@Javier-il1xi]

What a fucking character the Judge is. Best villain I've read.

[@WiseOwl_1408]

The author is a master

[@girtisholland]

@@Javier-il1xi Can you truly call Judge Holden a villain/protagonist? He is essentially a being, a product, of what exists in the world. His whole being consists of what mankind is in it of itself.

[@may-kq8tj]

The judge is a bad representation of Nietzschean philosophy, but still a good read.

[@nialltealeaf275]

​@@may-kq8tjHe's meant to represent "Violence for Violence's Sake" or "Politics by Other Means." Nietzsche would weep if he read Blood Meridian, he'd wail on how "McCarthy is misrepresenting me" without recognizing it's not a mirror... It's just a book.

[@colereynolds2587]

“Moral Law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak.” There has never been nor will there ever be a more philosophical antagonist in a story.

[@harrydaniels1942]

Edmund from King Lear by Shakespeare, Iago from Othello.

[@grimble4564]

A good summary of the philosophy of facism tho

[@miguelaguilar751]

Legit as soon as I read that line, I thought "looks like the judge read Nietzche's Genealogy of Morals."

[@clm652]

@@grimble4564 Fascism, as literally defined from the horse himself, " Fascism is when you cannot fit even a sheet of paper between the state and corporations." - Mussolini. This poor word, so popular recently, has been bastardized by midwits clad in masks and all black gear for the last 5 years in homage to their equally retarded forbearers decades ago. Today " fascism " means " anyone who doesn't agree with my Bolshevik inspired communist utopia ". So fking boring.

[@JocksRu]

“Strength is merely an accident arising from the weakness of others” Marlowe, The Heart of Darkness (Joseph Conrad)

[@joeking6972]

The Girl's Locker Room: "I wonder if Josh likes me, hehe!" The Boy's Locker Room:

[@fortblocks]

Boring 2019 ahh meme

[@joeking6972]

@@fortblocks I’m sorry you feel that way

[@stoicprepper7171]

War never changes

[@wolfranga8477]

​@@stoicprepper7171WAR IS GOD

[@2ndYHWH]

How am I always finding you in these obscure comment sections? 🤣

[@deedunn1989]

The Judge has to go down as one of the best villains in history. One of the main reasons why is how well he hid his monstrous ways with his intelligence, rationing and civility in many situations. While at the same time being a vicious terror

[@Sergei_Ivanovich_Mosin]

In a way the Judge represents both sides of human potential, its potential for great intelligence, and its potential for horrible savagery.

[@robertcampbell3019]

@@Sergei_Ivanovich_Mosin 'he dances in light and he dances in shadow'

[@SquishyMan9919]

The intellect is the most dangerous aspect of a person... to others and to themselves.

[@Immortalis...]

The intelligence of another can sometimes be threatening enough to some. A man of great knowledge can often be just as dangerous as a man with a gun. He knows more than you, is bigger than you, and ultimately stronger since he's familiar with all that is, all that has been. Especially if they've been on the earth for maybe thousands of years. Yes, I'd say there's a level of top dog to this character and it's plainly scary to the average person. A giant man who's immortal, smart, and unbelievably strong. He tops the cake, since he may never die aswell. A true supernatural being beyond our understanding.

[@edwinsolis5710]

A savage cloaked in the veneer of a civilized man. He has contempt against life itself. Despises the unknown because he can’t control it. He doesn’t hide his monstrous ways with intelligence. He uses his intelligence to articulate why he loves his monstrous ways. Nobody in the gang is a good person, but they’re all still human. Holden is The Devil. He embodies and advocates for the worst aspects of Mankind.

[@lakiog1938]

"It endures cuz young men love it and old men love it within them"

[@bigboncho]

An incredibly dark line. Especially follow by “Men are born for games…”

[@cowboyschad5x778]

Truth! Is loving the spirit of it while hating the carnage it causes hypocritical?

[@naturesquad9174]

​@@cowboyschad5x778yes

[@LURKTec]

>cuz

[@bubblepopshot6891]

The last exchange of this dialogue, between Holden and Tobin, has a special extra power given their relationship throughout the entire book. The priest is the only person in the gang who seems to explicitly "get" what the Judge is, and yet the Judge seems to have some special hold or power over him--- one that is only hinted at ("ah priest, what could i ask of you that you've not already given"), making it even more sinister.

[@supervisorjimlahey865]

Holden liked to send the ex-priest for whores and drink as well

[@robertcampbell3019]

@@supervisorjimlahey865 that was glanton

[@opensourceanglers8291]

It would be interesting to know what it was that drove Tobin from the cloth to the sword. And what was it towards the end of the main part of the story that had Tobin so spooked and deranged by the judge? Whatever it was he couldn't deal with it and his consideration of the judge and what his existence meant surely sent him over the falls of insanity. As the judge rightly observed (and with earnest approval) Tobin had given over everything he was to war and evil, forsaking his former holy vocation. But after the gang had broken up amd shattered, as holden pursued Tobin amd the kid, Tobin fell back on his faith to protect himself from the judge and what he represented. Tobin certainly seemed convinced that holden was evil personified.

[@ElevenDollarCheese]

@@opensourceanglers8291 Holden : the mystery is that there is no mystery. Tobin: as if he weren't a mystery himself, the bloody old hoodwinker.

[@2cool4fluoride]

Quiet now. He’s ears like a fox.

[@bossmode336]

The reply of "What right man would have it any other way" just hits so fucking hard. One of those lines that almost makes you think of The Judge as a badass instead of a depraved monster.

[@AlbanianThrash]

it's the kind of charisma only truly befitting a complete violent psychopath like the judge. he fully buys into his own bullshit and that kind of conviction is contagious

[@starcrossedother]

“It (war) endures because young men love it and old men love it in them, those that fought and those that did not.”

[@cg123xyz2]

I'm trying to find this quote, do you know roughly what page it is on in Blood Meridian?

[@Fross-888]

Page 262👍

[@cg123xyz2]

@@Fross-888 Thank you!

[@GeneralGuitFiddle]

There being multiple readings of the "in them" part is great.

[@Guigley]

Judge Holden is, hands-down, one of the greatest villains I've ever encountered. Absolutely horrifying and utterly captivating.

[@SolidSmashies]

The Judge makes Patrick Bateman look like a choir boy.

[@pipebombpete.6861]

Although.i always hated how they get the term "hairless" wrong

[@issh1n]

what do you mean?@@pipebombpete.6861

[@joels.3983]

@@pipebombpete.6861wrong how

[@pipebombpete.6861]

@@joels.3983 the author based judge Holdens description on the real life judge Holden. however he did not know that is the 1800s the term "hairless" usually meant no facial hair and not completely hairless from head to toe.

[@PR0MAN01]

I love how if you boil down what he's saying he's "I love killing for the sake of killing, and all humans are made for killing", and if described in such a way you'd think of him as insane. But the Judge masks his intentions behind such beautiful language and prose that it almost makes you forget it's the most depraved shit imaginable. Amazing. It's basically Senator Armstrongs speech from Metal Gear Rising but delivered much more beautifully.

[@cucas7000]

Funny thing while reading the book i always pictured the judge to have sundowners voice

[@ollaniuspius1211]

You know, if you think about it, Sundowner kind of even looks like the Judge. Bald head, that dark, menacing smile, hell it's as if the Judge has followed his own advice and embraced the spirit of war in of itself, with the aid of technology.

[@weirdguy1495]

@@ollaniuspius1211 And he looks like a giant pale white baby. All he needs is a bald head.

[@deece1482]

​@@ollaniuspius1211 wouldn't be surprised if the judge inspired sundowners design and overall philosophy.

[@nialltealeaf275]

​@@ollaniuspius1211The Judge would surely smile on Sundowner. His perfect specimen of War itself.

[@yoyoassful]

“Men are born for games. Nothing else.”

[@f.i.n.5065]

“Ah, priest, what can I ask of you that you have not already given?” - Judge Holden

[@viciousKev]

And yet order is not set aside because of their indifference.

[@nickzardiashvili624]

“Moral Law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak.” Here The Judge borrows from Shakespeare, from Richard III: "Conscience is but a word that cowards use, Devis'd at first to keep the strong in awe: Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law."

[@REALjohnmosesbrowning]

Rest in peace Cormac. You goddamn maniac. You were the greatest author in American history.

[@bouin91]

The Judge really felt like a more 'fleshed out' Kurtz from Heart of Darkness. The length of the book and McCarthy's writing style really made the Judge. Dude was based on an actual person too.

[@brileyvandyke5792]

Great take. I love both books and had thought of Heart of Darkness when reading, but hadn’t seen The Judge as a more developed Kurtz. Well done, man.

[@manwithnoname8229]

Blood Meridian is what I imagine Heart of Darkness would be, but from Kurtz's perspective.

[@may-kq8tj]

​@@manwithnoname8229 I don't think kurtz would be a child rapist but I see what you mean.

[@jryan2552]

@@may-kq8tjWhat makes you think that? Is it his final lines?

[@may-kq8tj]

@jryan2552 No, but child rape is sadistic while Kurtz is brutal; His brutality is more pragmatic rather than his personal pleasure. Consider how he recognizes the pile of severed arms as "genius" because of its effectiveness in instilling terror in the villagers, rape is horrific, of course, but it doesn't do much to further his goals of winning the war. Who knows, though.

[@hibernian87]

"What can I ask of you that you have not already given". A subtle tip-off that made Tobin urge the Kid to shoot him.

[@LandonGunter-oq9ch]

“ we are the anvil on which war is forged, today we meet the hammer” - Horus Lupercal, Warmaster

[@JillLulamoon]

"All I'm saying, kid, is give war a chance!"

[@it_getsworse9716]

Find the peace within ourselves no need for a cure

[@level5650]

The developers of that game were supposedly inspired by Blood Meridian’s themes about violence and war,, Sundowner’s name is a reference to the full title, “The evening redness in the west”. Armstrong’s entire philosophy also seems like an attempt to give this speech a modern refitting.

[@TheONLYFeli0]

@@level5650No way is that true!!! Metal gear rising?! Inspired by Blood Meridian?! That sentence is insane.

[@faded_ink3545]

Reading this as a battle between the Judge (Lucifer) and Tobin (the Priest) for the soul of the Kid, then it’s clear human morality is more aligned to evil than Christian good, and not just in the lawless savagery of the Wild West but as an inherent rule: (1) “Before man was, war waited for him”; (2) “The good book counts war an evil, but there’s many a bloody tale inside of it”. (3) *War is God*

[@frankie3010]

But the Kid rejects the Judge.

[@faded_ink3545]

@@frankie3010 The Kid does, but the vast majority of people do not. And in response to his rejection, The Judge brutalised and murdered him, then goes back to dancing in the saloon.

[@iago110]

@@faded_ink3545no, the kid lives and kills and rapes the missing hooker, the judge never will die because the kid becomes like him. The kid killed a lot of the missing children in the book (a stated they were killed by someone with big hands) and the kid even at 14-15 is described as having “large hands, large wrists”

[@frankie3010]

@@faded_ink3545 because the kid refused to dance (live as an enemy of evil) and he just wanted it to be over. The ending doesn't say " evil will go on no matter what we do", it says "evil triumphed because a good man choose to do nothing"

[@faded_ink3545]

@@frankie3010 Yeah, that’s a more hopeful interpretation than I read. The almost inhuman capability of The Judge’s evil seems impossible to oppose. The priest Tobin couldn’t when he refuses to refute the Judge’s monologue on war, and The Kid only opposed The Judge when that evil is turned against him in the desert. It’s hard to interpret the Kid as a ‘good man doing nothing’ against evil; a more accurate moral is simply that some evil is too intwined with human nature to overcome, and so the Judge will never die. Cheers for this discussion btw; love getting the chance to share themes from my favourite book with someone else.

[@iowaaaaaaaaaa]

This is the scariest thing to ever be posted on the website youtube and should be remembered as such.

[@MelancoliaI]

@Joao Klein true. Just a brutal book

[@user-xb7mb9uk3n]

You're right, videos about Junko Furuta's case or torturing are far more gentle and pleasant.

[@dennismartin5821]

This book is beyond a masterpiece. I have read it, ten or more times, and will read it again.

[@I_Shit_on_your_shit_point]

there are only 2 books; this one and the Bible. and for me the Bible is #2

[@hulkamania5071]

@@I_Shit_on_your_shit_point you don't like any other Cormac McCarthy or William Faulkner books?

[@I_Shit_on_your_shit_point]

@@hulkamania5071 absolutely. those would be anywhere from 3 up

[@2cool4fluoride]

@@I_Shit_on_your_shit_point So you made it out Tobin.

[@noharakun]

same i had to buy three different copies cause i kept lending it out for others to read, and glad that i am, they did in kind to others

[@jacobking4504]

I fucking love this book. What a masterful piece of art.

[@raimundoalaniz4111]

This book has never left me.

[@RoiHibou]

The most terrifying book that I've ever read. The Judge is the most terrifying character that I've ever read about.

[@boxmad5523]

For me Judge Holden is the greatest antagonist in any book I’ve ever read, every time he was mentioned I was filled with dread because I just knew something horrifying was going to happen, no other character has had such a disturbing impact.

[@RoiHibou]

@@boxmad5523 I agree.

[@mattheww797]

Box Mad wait, the judge is the bad guy?? I thought he was helping them though. I thought he seemed like a pretty nice guy because he taught a lot of things and even saved someone from drowning. I didnt really get the feeling he was bad.

[@boxmad5523]

Matthew W I’m guessing that’s sarcasm because for me he was one of the coldest, ruthless and most evil fuckers I’ve read about 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@CugelTheClever458]

@@mattheww797 remember how the Judge killed and scalped the little boy he took with him after the gang massacred a village? He was only „nice“ to the members of the gang. And the members all seemed afraid of him.

[@BNK2442]

This book makes Quentin Tarantino's films look like My Little Pony.

[@WillShakes423]

And forget comparing him to historical figures. This guy would make Adolf Hitler look fucking Amish.

[@lakiog1938]

I always know when someone comments another artists name on some other men art the replies are going to hate on the artist mentioned lmao

[@rileygray1556]

@Adam L a bald Daniel Day-lewis

[@albhem_eh]

@@rileygray1556 my first choice for Holden would always be Brando! He'd have sure brought aspects of Col.Kurtz from Apocalypse Now again if the plan of Kubrick film had given a go with Brando as Holden like Kubrick wanted. My 2nd choice would be Phillip Hoffman Seymour. He has the personality as Holden & also the intimidating presence. Oh and also Sir Anthony Hopkins😍. And yeah 3rd it'll be DDL. But i think he'll have to buff up for the role. And the amount of method acting he should go through. I think De Niro would be pretty amazing too but the thing is De Niro is more of an improviser. That's not bad.. at all. But if he ever forgets a line he'll just improvises with something else which might take away the beauty of McCarthys thought provoking & complex writing.

[@rileygray1556]

@@albhem_eh Brando would definitely be a good fit. Hoffman would be interesting too. He could kind of do anything. De Niro would be interesting but enjoyable. I think his voice may be a little too iconic though. It would take me out of the vileness if De Niro was covered in guts screaming out litigation tactics with a Neanderthal 😂

[@bronzeandsteel3344]

He says it doesn't matter what man thinks of war, then proceeds to explain war to them. Meaning either he is not human, and he does not fall under his own restrictions, or he is not saying what he thinks of war, and is just objectively explaining what war is.

[@ShamblesMD]

At the end of the day, nothing is more intimidating to others than true-believers of their faith. The Judge is one such person, the priest wasn't. Like a lot of religious people, Tobin was only a believer when he was in a situation where it suited him. You can't keep saying things are blasphemy or witchcraft if you don't believe in God 100% of the time, nor can you only call on God when your back's against the wall.

[@hfdhgddcvh]

Google: war is hell Bing:

[@amkent2134]

I remember finishing this book and knowing that I just read a book that I will likely never read anything better than.

[@Skamberin]

This is a description of the nature of mankind and war that goes deeper than mere political whims or ideals of rule. Its excellent in every way. As if espoused by some ancient observer who's grown accustomed to the cyclical nature of man's violence

[@wadewilson8011]

No better way to describe the duality of mankind as well as nihilism.

[@whiteeye3453]

Nihilism and love are same

[@vinchenzo2502]

War is a forcing of the unity of existence.......that's just as good as writing gets

[@gravityboxer]

Bunch of nonsense

[@vinchenzo2502]

@@gravityboxer ah Davie. Its your own trade we honor here

[@ASmartNameForMe]

@@vinchenzo2502his trade?

[@jakefoley9539]

I love how the narrator makes the Judge sound like Fuhrer King Bradley

[@junesilvermanb2979]

God Save The King!

[@CaravanCzar]

I don't mean to sound like an Edge Lord, and I should preface this by saying that I have always struggled with mental health issues, but if I would have read/listened to Blood Meridian when I was younger I would have been caught hook, line, and sinker by this speech. I probably would have ended up in prison. The scariest part for people like me is that there is a thin line that I have to choose not to cross every day to not be as deranged as The Judge. I'm not saying I would be as successful as him, nor do I think I have supernatural powers (except when I was self medicating), but I can't be the only one out there who thinks and feels like this. There has to be other people like me who think, deep down, that violence is it's own reward, and that horrifies me, because I know that its wrong, but still feel that way.

[@Eamonshort1]

Man, I feel ya. Keep fighting on my man. The idea of just giving in, letting the illness subsume you is very seductive. But ultimately it punishes us far more than it gives us.

[@joeking6972]

I felt the same way in my late teens having watched A Clockwork Orange for the first time. I was disturbed by how much the main character resonated with me and I desperately wanted to be him, despite being aware of how concerning that was. Alex was an evil little b*stard but he had charm, energy, intellect, freedom, power. He knew what he wanted and was unrestrained in his pursuit of it. I believe much of what makes these characters so compelling to us is that they represent what the psychologist Carl Jung called "the shadow," which is essentially our animalistic dark side. The reason why the shadow and it's depictions are appealing is because we feel disempowered and oppressed in our daily lives, and so we overcorrect with these vile fantasies. You cannot suppress the shadow as that would only make it stronger; it must be integrated. This is actually a good thing because without aggression or power we would not be able to protect others or stand up to injustice. There is nothing wrong with desiring empowerment, in fact the world would be a better place if everyone embraced their nature and worked in a way to express it in a healthy manner. This is why it's healthy for a boy's development to wrestle with others. Furthermore, the shadow contains untapped and extremely potent creative energy, this is why many artists seem to live uneventful lives while also creating profound works of art(such as McCarthy himself); they learn how to channel that aggression into their work.

[@St.nobody]

This is so gay

[@sumkindacheeto]

OP is gay

[@manintheline5331]

I agree, there is some pieces of media that are legitimately dangerous or at least really harmful to the mind, for me, its Justine or the misfortune of virtue

[@cwmbran-city]

Glad no-one has dared to try and adapt this masterpiece into film or fkn tv.

[@jebediahkrimsoncraftleding3012]

James Franco got started with it but it failed. I won’t comment on that, I’ll just leave it.

[@cwmbran-city]

@@jebediahkrimsoncraftleding3012 can you imagine that? Brrrrrrrrrrr

[@Hopium500]

@@jebediahkrimsoncraftleding3012 tommy lee jones was considering adapting it in the 90s but couldn't acquire the rights or something.

[@boxmad5523]

Blood Meridian for me is in that category along with The Catcher in the Rye, amazing book but for the life of me I can’t see how either of them could translate to the screen and be successful 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@punypunic2224]

If it was to happen I feel it would have to be a five hour epic, complete with every monologue. Nothing can be shaved off for the sake of time.

[@karlwikman3874]

There is no conceivable way in the physical universe that Hideo Kojima was not inspijred by Judge Holden when he wrote Sundowner and Armstrong for Metal Gear Rising. I'll put my entire retirement fund on it and die on that hill.

[@level5650]

You’re right. Sundowner’s name is a reference to the book’s full title; “evening redness in the west.” And the fact Armstrong’s “dream” speech really is just a modernised version of Holden’s war sermon is absolutely fascinating, especially with how their final interactions with the protagonist play out. The Kid defiantly refuses to accept Holden, and it’s implied the Judge does something unspeakably horrific to him in response while boasting that he will never die. Raiden instead kills Armstrong to prevent his dream of a “might makes right” society from coming to pass and he dies satisfied that Raiden had to embrace his ideals to defeat him, with the last shot being Raiden’s shadow overlaying Armstrong’s corpse. MGR feels a lot more…forgiving to it’s audience about the desire to force one’s will onto the world. If Meridian is a cry of despair about how man’s every impulse leads to violence , MGR is an acceptance of that reality and a refusal to give in to it.

[@HarperSanchez]

You can make a sound argument for anything, even pure evil.

[@MrFredstt]

If you're smart enough and gifted enough with speech, yes

[@TheONLYFeli0]

This argument has been made since the very beginning. In this book, it was spoken in tongue.

[@tylerbrown2923]

It is worth considering that the book’s thesis always takes place with the cessation of bloodshed and the beginning of discourse. Without the discourse, the bloodshed would be meaningless. I don’t mean to say Holden is ironic, nor do I mean to say he is ironically portrayed. But his thesis relies upon listening. Dead men don’t listen.

[@tylerbrown2923]

Nor do dead men read

[@dustmemory9891]

He's a wizard, or a Djinn. Language is just a higher form of violence.

[@paperbullet1945]

He doesn't need to explain his thesis for it to be true.

[@gecko7005]

I loved it when the judge said "War. War never changes"

[@zootjitsu6767]

Can you imagine if Kubrick make a blood meridian film?

[@SK371]

Loved the part when he said "I am the law!" And then beat everyone to death with his gavel.

[@jackwright3996]

The Judge. What a trip

[@CrazyBanana510]

I cannot think of a more disturbing antagonist.

[@raimundoalaniz4111]

I dont reckon their will ever be a more menacing character.

[@sadsackkvisling9694]

He's huge, White, mutated, hairless, ghostly white, like Moby Dick, extremely fierce and merciless, highly intelligent and unpredictable. He's either some kind of daemon or wargod.

[@TheSFMWonderer]

The narrator does so good as the voice for Holden that it’s hard to see someone else, especially in the upcoming movie, voice this character. The way he speaks, the way it sounds, it’s like this man was born to voice Holden, like how Elliot was born to voice AM.

[@Bilboswaggins2077]

This is a real man's book

[@ragingraider889]

I like your funny words, bald magic man!

[@stubaker2574]

I had a cousin killed in nam and in his personal items sent home was a new testament that was blood stained and a single drop ran inside and stopped at that verse of live by sword die by sword and the odd thing was it didn't stain on the opposite page so that has stayed with me since '68...war is hell...and has no mercy.

[@crimsondynamo615]

If there was proof of divine message that’s definitely it.

[@OmnipotentO]

What a scary philosophy and I'm not sure I completely disagree. Just got to this part and got literal chills. I think this might be my favorite book. Idk but it's left a big impression on me and I "get it" now. It lived up to the hype and then some. It is a hell of a book..

[@Stopitpls]

It’s this sermon he gives just settles the matter of the Judge’s being for me, he is the devil incarnate. I don’t mean that metaphorically either, I think he is the incarnation of the serpent who tempted Eve in the garden, who tortured Job, and tempted Jesus in the desert, the Judge is the literal devil, his worship of all sin and his whispering into Glanton’s ear that drives them all deeper into a hell of their own making. This sermon with all the other ones and all his other traits, peculiarities, and actions just shows Judge to be the biblical Satan.

[@dire-decadence]

Pascal’s words on justice come to mind; “Justice is subject to dispute, might is easily recognised and is not disputed. So we can give no might to justice, because might has gainsaid justice-and declared that it is she herself who is just; And thus being unable to make what is just strong: We have made what is strong-just.”

[@tanberetO]

Most people mistake the Judge as Satan or the Devil. This story hints at religion and has undertones of religion but I don't think he's meant to represent the devil or evil. Personally I think he's meant to represent violence or more specifically the violent nature of the group. He is violence without emotion. Tough lust, and greed might be spoils of war these aren't his driving force. He says he'll never die, while dancing and fiddling. He dances to his own tune, bare for all to see, unapologetic and always has and will always be. He knows how to create gunpowder and advanced tactics. He is war/violence incarnate. Just my personal opinion and outtake. Please criticize and analyze this yourself. Am I correct? Why? Am I wrong? Why? He's as much a mystery to you as to myself.

[@tanberetO]

Edited for typos. Changed no to but, and to thogh to though.

[@jacobking4504]

Yes, I think this is quite a good analysis of the Judge. McCarthy does indeed subtly indicate the Judge is some otherworldly entity. The book has some gnostic themes woven throughout, with some people arguing that the Judge is some sort of gnostic 'archon'. The gunpowder scene is also a direct reference to Satan inventing gunpowder in Milton's 'Paradise Lost' which also may suggest the Judge is of a demonic nature. I like the idea that he is war personified. The dancing metaphor has an ancient connection with warfare which is an interesting link I think - for example, Mars, the Greek god of war, is often characterised as a light-footed and nimble dancer.)

[@tanberetO]

@@jacobking4504 I've been reading Samual Chamberlains book. Apparently he's a real person. Though many people have alleged to know his identity, I think he will forever be unknown. Probably met his fate at the Yuma river crossing with Glanton.

[@jacobking4504]

@@tanberetO Oh wow, very nice. I've always wanted to read Chamberlain's book but I could never find it anywhere. Yeah, I did read that he was purportedly real which is very interesting.

[@tanberetO]

@@jacobking4504 It's very expensive on the internet. I was on a waiting list on my public library. Try your library, maybe a waiting list but it is worth it. I haven't come close to finishing it but it's very intriguing, he boasts a lot, however I believe that Judge Holden was a real person. In those times people from the south often gave themselves titles. Whether he actually was a judge is arguably moot. He however claimed the title and was apparently educated, I'm sure he was a well educated man from the south. Possibly the son of an educated man as well.

[@majorgrubert5887]

Thanks to Wendigoon, I’ve now have a favorite book!

[@mn01_]

“Battle doesn’t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don’t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don’t ask why I fight.”

[@scootza1]

I just got done listening to this with the exact same narrarator and I am convinced the Judge is either the refined essence of humanity given flesh or the literal devil

[@ardvarkvv2718]

I understood him as the latter. The embodiment of temptation and evil made manifest

[@obsolete9734]

me when he says i am the devil :00000

[@aurockscastillo5460]

It’s humanity without morals ,in a way it’s humanity in its truest form without social constraints.

[@sanjixalv6956]

​@@aurockscastillo5460I wouldn't say that the "true" form of humanity. We are also social by nature and That forces us to learn to live with others no matter what. The moral of the book is that although violence is part of the world, everyone chooses whether to exercise it or not and above all that humanity can be much more and better than brainless people who kill just for the sake of it. The terrifying about the Judge is that it is proving to be a pure evil bastard even when being an evil bastard was the norm.

[@level5650]

“Moral Law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak.” How easy it is to forgot that such strength is oft inherited then earned. Such disenfranchisement is achievement, not failing.

[@charliechazworth]

Never has this been more relevant than at this moment.

[@DampPoet77]

This has been relevant countless times before.

[@bath_cat3314]

"Ah priest, what could I ask of you that you've not already given?"xxx probablypoyth

[@pat168]

My take on that one was the priest’s soul

[@tabula_rosa]

@@pat168 before the conflict between the kid & the judge the priest is trying to drive the kid to murder him, i always took that as the priest doing the judge's will

[@taterthepenguin]

The Judge over here waxing poetic about how "all games have stakes" like he's never heard of Minecraft.

[@D-class9341]

Minecraft has stakes

[@TheONLYFeli0]

Also he probably didn’t hear of it

[@jacobking4504]

RIP legend.

[@shubhamgupta-fs3ml]

Intresting that In reply to the Black saying 'Good book says war is Evil' the Judge said it doesn't concern him what 'Men think of war' completely ignoring divinity associated with it, And one of his inspirations was Lucifer from Paradise lost.

[@purpledevilr7463]

Genuinely I think this beautiful.

[@ivansmirnoff6987]

I haven't read the book, but the words hold truths we'd rather not acknowledge. For all of man's poems, paintings, books, plays, and movies on the horrors and ugliness of war, for all of his cries that it is an evil that need not happen, war continues. Men will build ideologies on peace and love, and yet they'll kill and slaughter and rape for it. Nature breeds no greater hypocrite than man. War seems inevitable. It seems to be some inescapable part of us. Worse yet, it seems to be something we love. Characters like the Judge, like the Major from Hellsing, and like Sundowner from Metal Gear Rising hold up a mirror to humanity. They seem inhuman, like impossible things built by imagination, and yet they're so very human, for only man could create something so evil, as only man believes in the concept of evil.

[@dire-decadence]

Judge holden has two of the three natures of charisma; The nature of a prophet/ruler in some senses and the ability to talk eloquently about all things. I would not venture to say that he also has the ability to make other people enjoy his company/presence but he may well-for he excels with dark charisma and a high functioning dark tetrad.

[@SuperUniverse]

The judge would have made a great Villain inspiration for any movie villain. This guy is so well written. He might as well be the proto joker

[@burningcoal5705]

GOOD GOD. That was the most disturbing truth I have ever read

[@ElazarY]

This is the greatest novel ever written

[@radonsmith4386]

_Me when there's peace negotiations_

[@ronkledonkanusmoncher564]

And so it was that the serpent came draped in silk, with a tongue of silver and honey, to sway good men onto bad courses and drive the wicked further down their path of malicious self destruction, all at their own willing behest.

[@jamesguidash9296]

Rest in peace.

[@praetor9822]

War is the father of us all and our king. War discloses who is godlike and who is but a man, who is a slave and who is a freeman. It must be seen clearly that war is the natural state of man. Justice is contention. Through contention all things come to be. -Heraclitus

[@johansmallberries9874]

Those that have read Blood Meridian scoff at those that brag about having read American Psycho.

[@ZombryaTheDark]

Both my favorite books

[@geswhat77]

"Ah priest. What could I ask of you that you've not already given."

[@SuperGreatSphinx]

Repentance

[@aurockscastillo5460]

War is the ultimate game -what a line.

[@gordoncameron5082]

I think Anton Chigurh must’ve read Blood Meridian

[@Bl1tzkn1ght]

I always imagined that Judge Holden sounds like Tom Hanks. I dont know why i always imagined his voice like that.

[@georgemuller308]

One thing I’ve just now realized is how many times we’ve heard about Holden’s unnatural look, and that reminds me of something I heard in bible school “man was made in gods image” it would make sense a demon or the devil himself would look similar to a human, but wrong as he was also crafted by god but through his rebellion became altered, through that or through him building his own image he is forever scorned to be irrevocably changed. On the flip side of this if you believe the judge is a concept manifest he is the image of man so altered by our own imperfections he looks it, a abomination of what we think we look like, a twisted example of who we are when we look past the perceived beauty we see in the mirror. We are all what judge is deep down. A monster hidden beneath what we perceive ourselves as but no different when our calling of war beckons us.

[@SailfishSoundSystem]

The Judge cannot be scalped, for he has no hair.

[@amadousef846]

Scalping means taking the head skin, not hair. Of course it is a bit harder to hold onto to cut but still.

[@beacondog2440]

You take a scalp for the hair tho

[@justherefortheviolence]

He has a scalp

[@raimundoalaniz4111]

His scalp would look like the full moon.

[@crimsondynamo615]

@@raimundoalaniz4111 or given how pale and smooth his skin is, practically the top of a skull.

[@zach415]

It’s ironic how the former priest, despite being in this gang of ruthless killer, still holds some sort of religious zealotry. It’s also ironic how The Judge calls him out on this

[@chillout8320]

Many Americans back then were like that. Their religious beliefs only came in when it benefited them.

[@MrMuel1205]

How did Cormac McCarthy make such a monster so compelling? He's wrong, and McCarthy holds the tongue of the best counter arguments. But goddamn is this disturbing.

[@harbinger7368]

How is he wrong? he's literally explaining the world as it is, War is god. Might makes right. morality doesn't exist apart from being a mechanism to increase a social species survival. the lion takes from the sheep, yadda yadda. so on so forth.

[@comictanker]

The judge’s philosophy is laid out in plain ink

[@patrickrhodes4679]

That was amazing.

[@grass757]

boy's with daddy issues:"i'm 🏳️‍🌈 now😊" boys with mommy issues:

[@SuperGreatSphinx]

Ganymede

[@grass757]

@@SuperGreatSphinx what?

[@cooler_carpington]

Truest statement I have seen holy cow

[@jays9869]

What actor would you people think might pull of the role of Judge Holden? I think it's a hard question. Physical build is important, but they would also have to pull off articulate and menacing.

[@dullknifefactory]

Josh Brolin

[@lakiog1938]

@@dullknifefactory my thoights too

[@richardbyrd2049]

Vincent donofrio

[@Stonewall2]

@@richardbyrd2049 my thoughts too. He’s have to get in better shape, but he’d be perfect

[@clm652]

@@dullknifefactory Brolin is like 5-7 lol. No. Listed as " 5-10 ".....not a chance.

[@Endymion766]

Judge Holden is one of those villains that, if one were to go full vigilante and gun him down straight on, there would be a grieving and mourning of the masses that loved him. At the same time, they would call for the immediate execution of the hero that killed him. Holden was the type to ingratiate himself into every community that had some use to him with his charm and intellect. He had a halo effect that instantly won over every shmuck and naïve John and Jane Doe so that he always had at least 51% of the public on his side. That's all he needed. Then he could get away with nearly anything he wanted to do. If the vigilante kills Holden, the public will have a statue of the guy up before he's buried in the ground. The hero will be remembered as the ultimate villain and Holden will be seen as a martyr. We see this happen in real life all the time - Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Che Guevarra, Hugo Chavez. There are millions that worship the memory of these men who set the record for most people buried.

[@namelessking4146]

For some reason I feel the Judge literally cannot die. “He says that he will never die.” It is a double meaning imo because the Judge seemingly never ages and war will never die. The Judge is the personification of war. However your still correct though.

[@Endymion766]

@@namelessking4146 ultimately, the inhuman status of the judge doesn't matter. The story stays the same either way. We never even get to see his alleged immortality tested because he's so good at avoiding the consequences of his actions that he might as well be immortal. I believe he is just a man because it shows how evil men can be, positing the possibility of someone existing like that in real life. Also, an immortal judge is cheating the spirit of the rules of war and even a real devil wouldn't do that, because it takes all the fun out of the game, or the "dance" as Holden puts it. What's the point of playing a game if you always have god mode on? It gets pointless after a few minutes. Holden probably sees himself as the perfect human that has fully embraced the reality of things, the nature of suffering, in all its brutality. We hate the Judge, but we have to admit he is perfectly suited for thriving in our world.

[@edwinsolis5710]

I can agree that The Judge might as well be a man. But all these quotes of staking his claim on the world lends itself eerily well to Satan himself. The fact that freedom in all it’s forms seems to offend The Judge is a clue to me. No one man hates that symbolic freedom. At worst they envy it. The Judge is happy and says he will never die, but Freedom seems to be a spit on his face. Every bird that flies free seems to be victorious over The Judge himself. This seems to be the relationship between good and evil at it’s finest.

[@namelessking4146]

What about how the Judge was at the right moment at the right time. Like how he met everyone in the company some time before and then meets them again in the desert? He also never ages and at the end the Kid is said to be older, so why is Holden the same?

[@Endymion766]

@@namelessking4146 he ages well and is good at directions. Is that more likely or is it more likely he is a interdimensional hellspawn from Gehenna? I think the simpler explanation is the more likely but you can believe the latter if you makes you happy. But based on Holden's sermons, it sounds like he wants to win these "dances" fairly and being a demon would be cheating. Though he might very well be a demon possessed he still must follow the same rules of survival as the rest of us. If he was just using some sort of god-mode it would make him less scary and more of a cowardly type and I just don't see that in him. He's the sort that would give you a gun at the beginning of a duel and still win, not because of demonic powers but because he always knows something you don't. He knows that gun is faulty and misfires a lot. Or he knows you don't know how to handle a revolver. He always has some bit of intrigue or knowledge up his sleeve that always gives him the advantage. You dont need to be a demon for that, just smart. Musashi Miyamoto was like that and he was a real dude that killed about 70+ guys and died of old age, eventually.

[@JoeMFTorres]

Khorne is pleased.

[@Ayahuasca98]

HE’S FUCKING INVINCIBLE

[@pat168]

I always thought the priest had given his soul

[@MsXynex]

before man was, war was waiting for him

[@cowboyschad5x778]

Great book but it’s to bad Reddit is working overtime to cringe up a classic

[@crud420]

death of the author can be applied to fanbases too

[@firebrand4074]

What does this even mean

[@jamesc2201]

“War. War is your trade, is it not?”

[@francisbinet4116]

As a fan Warhammer 40k, i'm thinking about a priest of Khorne right now ...Blood for the the blood god, etc, etc,..

[@YTsux100pct._of-the-time.]

He cares not from where the blood flows, as long as it does flow.

[@drlca6601]

Judge is far more of a Dark Eldar reaver than he is a Khornate adeherent.

[@russianfederation4160]

Its not about the blood. Its about the game.

[@purpledevilr7463]

Play, as an instinct, is thought to be a hunting simulation. Preparation for the reality of life.

[@shineperishingrepublic]

It's easy to believe you're reading Judge Holdens words and not Cormac McCarthy's.

[@Judge_Holden]

Based.

[@John_Doe62]

Well.... he has a good point

[@TrashHeapHedonist]

When he says "wItHoUt WaRrant!" he sounds like Deckard Cain.

[@Stonewall2]

Kinda sounded like Bane to me lol

[@wrecker132]

RIP KING!!!