Bloodborne Lore Revisited | The Curse of Kos

[@zamplify]

I still think about Bloodborne every day. No other game will ever live in my head like that.

[@nickfernandez7563]

zamplify I think we all have eyes in our heads now

[@imahumanfdx]

same. Every day I wish I can delete the bloodborne memory, so I could play it again for the first time.

[@juiceboxbzrk]

I still hear the humming. The God forsaken humming

[@Krowlei]

I still PVP and make new characters regularly. I live for the return times now.

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

@@Krowlei Blood-drunk as ever I see.

[@miguelromero3713]

A thought crossed my mind _How does Kos curses the children of hunters?_ Well, every child inherits something from their progenitors: *Blood*

[@blingsing5383]

Fear the old blood suddenly sounds like it has an extra meaning

[@kingkangiv1615]

I like it, but unless the player character was born from a hunter it is false and given you can make your character an old man I would believe it to not be an accurate interpretation.

[@blingsing5383]

I think you misread it doesn't mean the player is born from a hunter just that the player is a hunter Hunters and there children are cursed not just the children of hunters

[@gonzaloperalta2836]

@@kingkangiv1615 in Yharnam not everyone is a Hunter of the church but almost everyone participates in the hunt soooo, technically everyone would be cursed and everyone's children forever and ever

[@gmaster634]

@@kingkangiv1615 in the beginning of the game you get a blood transfusion by that one hunter right before you wake up to start the game, so you kinda share their blood

[@FirstLast-cg2nk]

"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons, even death may die." The corpse of Kos may have washed up on shore, but given the unique nature of these cosmic entities, being a corpse and being "dead" *are two very different things.* Kos was still aware, if not alive, when its child was taken, and there's a possibility that her child was still alive when it was found. Having her child stolen, dissected alive, and "killed" in the process... Not only would Kos be so angry that she'd gladly visit a curse on the interlopers, but no doubt her child would have been filled with rage and madness at having experienced such a fate for itself.

[@gretchling5012]

I've thought for awhile that Kos's "corpse" refers to her physical body after she ascends to one of those "transcendental planes of thought" mentioned in the Isz Root Chalice. We know that this was probably a concept that the development team had in mind, because of the cut content featuring the body of the Moon Presence that was supposed to be found in the chalice dungeons.

[@sunbro6998]

An orphan is only an orphan if they survive their parents. I think Kos's child was taken alive by the hunters. And that is also why it is so obliquely alluded to, because it truly is so horrific. Not just a dead baby, but a living one was taken.

[@gypsydanger1013]

"Mother is dead and her baby taken" always makes me feel so sad:( it's such a hopeless and tragic phrase. I love Bloodborne so much, it always hits me in the feels one way or another

[@pabloraulpereyra4948]

I think that is hard for us see how big is the sin/crime really

[@fast.food.ninjalarry954]

Hell yeah !!! Who gives a shit about a god that uses me as a puppet ?!!!

[@SeppukuAddict]

FAST.FOOD.NINJA:LARRY Lots of Great Ones are sympathetic to human suffering, others are exploitative (Moon Presence, Oeden, etc.)

[@fast.food.ninjalarry954]

@@SeppukuAddict Yeah i know that but i dont know i just cant buy it you know ?!!! Like who could know the hidden agenda of Mother Of Kos ?!!!

[@SeppukuAddict]

@@fast.food.ninjalarry954 Not so hidden really. The Church oversees ALL blood tranfusion, so anyone hoping to become a Hunter (with the capital H) will do so through the Church because they are the ones calling the shots. Kos is just avenging her lost child posthumously, and it's a pretty fair curse you know? The Hunters, under orders from the Church, killed villagers and abducted others for experimentation, pillaged their skulls for evidence of Great Ones and cut the still living Orphan of Kos from his mother's corpse and took his umbilical cord.

[@herrzyklon]

It always struck me from the Umbilical Cord descriptions about every Great One losing their child, that this was not about their lack of ability in creating or conceiving a child, but an allusion to having or taken, removed, or lost.

[@josetomascamposrobledano4618]

We are born from the Lore, made man by the Lore, undone by the Lore!

[@walidhassan9151]

Thanks for the laugh b.

[@patwaddington]

Our eyes are yet to open

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

@@patwaddington I beg my leave Master, I'll never forget our adage.

[@joshuaperry2426]

Men*

[@misaeltoral508]

Jose Tomas Campos Robledano The original creed of Byrgenwerth was far more explicit and interesting I think. “Blood makes us human, makes us more than human, makes us human no more”

[@abdlhmdx]

9:47 In the Japanese version she actually says “Corpse-fishing is not very admirable”

[@petermyweiner6688]

English is better

[@Chaos_Gargoyle]

@@petermyweiner6688 when a language is superior 🤣

[@isaacburrows8405]

@@petermyweiner6688 you're still reading it in English though how do you know?

[@robertphillips213]

Everyone always shouts how paying for the sins of one's ancestors isn't "fair", but nobody has a problem enjoying the fruits of the labors of those self-same ancestors which, equally, isn't "fair".

[@Tomie..]

I’ve been binge watching and rewatching lore videos on dark souls/blood borne and THIS CAME OUT ?!? The gods has granted us eyes, but are yet to open Thank you smoughtown

[@tacioob2337]

Cleanse our minds of beastly idiocy 😢

[@marklikeshark]

Hope you do some more Bloodborne lore. It’s by far the most interesting lore in all from games.

[@SmoughTown]

Man Like Shark really want to do more!

[@TheNightWolf-WildCraft]

Sekiro is way overlooked when it comes to lore honestly

[@deaconstj19]

@@TheNightWolf-WildCraft Because it's not nearly as deep and layered as the other From Games

[@gustavolemos5913]

@@deaconstj19 incorrect

[@deaconstj19]

@@gustavolemos5913 Incorrect what? I didn't say that the lore in Sekiro is bad or anything, just that it's nowhere near the vast, deep and layered lore that the Souls and Bloodborne have. It's simple, really. Sekiro has much much fewer characters, locations, bosses and backgrounds and thus its lore is not as rich

[@humbertougalde6880]

I think you guys are being too rigid about the whole 'A corpse should be left well alone.' I think Maria is talking about herself but referencing the event of the hamlet. That she was talking about both. Sort of like saying this is what happens when you disturb the dead, maybe next time you'll think twice before doing it. Japan loves double meanings.

[@pabloraulpereyra4948]

X2

[@chopsandtoots]

I sort of took it as having multiple meanings, also referring to the corpse of Kos, as the Church desecrated her corpse and took the orphan.

[@BestCupid]

Oh I 100% agree . Maria is referencing both herself as well as Kos corpse that Hunters/scholars desecrated due to their sheer thirst for knowledge of unknown and took her baby from within her. So Kos cursed Hunters to end up in the nightmare so to keep her child alive but also to punish Hunters for taking and possibly killing it in the waking world

[@watertommyz]

@PessiOpt 9 I like to think that the Vilebloods are either a different type of blood usage or an a completely different faction more akin to vampires, which explains why they're opposed factions. but I dunno, I need to replay the game and pay attention to the lore more.

[@GiganteKirkhammer]

I believe the same thing personally. It is almost absolutely a double entendre.

[@BbNaB]

I had a recent thought about the Hunter's Nightmare and how we travel backwards through events: The Amygdala early in Yharnam is not a dead husk. It is forming out of the blood and ashes.

[@VVabsa]

When all is melted in blood, all is reborn.

[@jacobhoover1654]

So Amygdala are born in the Nightmares, maybe that's why they are the only way to get into a Nightmare.

[@darkslayer1161]

@@jacobhoover1654 that makes alot of sense. An amygdala wouldn't have any trouble in a nightmare. What with being psuedo great ones.

[@MrChava54]

I feel Kos is the most interesting Great One because it's practically the only Great one who could be seen as a decent and benign being. It seemed if the crime did not happen, the village and her would have lived in strangeness, but also peace.

[@brentloy131]

I like this a lot... basically despite the "weird going on", there, everyone involved was down for the weirdness and it was functioning

[@spiralistichope9216]

A theory I have had since The Old Hunters came out, but which I never really see mentioned much in relation to the Curse of Kos and its connections to the main plotline of the story in the base game of Bloodborne. This line of speculation is primarily that the Hunter's Dream was created SPECIFICALLY in response to the curse itself, as a reactive measure to save the hunters from the nightmare that drew them into their own kind of hell or purgatory through the bloodlust discussed in this video. It was Laurence and Gehrman who beckoned the Moon Presence utilizing the knowledge they gained, partially from the Fishing Hamlet (perhaps they even used the umbilical cords FROM the Orphan? That is another theory entirely, perchance), and my belief is that the Moon Presence fashioned a contract with Laurence, through Gehrman, to precipitate the creation of the Hunter's Dream as a sanctuary to oppose the Hunter's Nightmare we see in the DLC, which fits some of the thematic contrast you discuss in this video as well, I'd argue. I do believe the MP had the ulterior motive of gaining power via blood echoes gained from the cyclical hunts done by the chosen "paleblood hunters" through its conduit, the Doll and the Dream, and also used the existence of the Dream and its facilitation of the hunt as a means of destroying Great One competition (like Mergo in the main game's plot). However, the Dream also did indeed function as promised as well, to save certain chosen hunters from the Nightmare and give them repeated life upon death instead of falling into the depravity of Kos's damnation. How this connects to Eileen's Hunter of Hunters clan and the sky burials and such is hard to say, I don't have any real conjecture on that front, BUT you bringing up the item description of her set is what made me remember this theory of mine, as I feel it fits surprisingly well in some respects and possibly holds a link between the Hunter's Dream and the Curse of Kos. What are your thoughts on the concept behind the theory that the Hunter's Dream was made to save those who cursed themselves and all future "hunters" (however broadly that scope stretches, it seems to end up affects even those vaguely related to the hunt in Yharnam which means the Curse of Kos is truly brutal and unrelenting in its indiscriminate spread...just look at Gascoigne's fate)? Could it be that Laurence was desperate to save himself from the curse he brought upon him and the Byrgenwerth hunters by precipitating the massacre of the Fishing Hamlet and consuming blood that led to beasthood, and Gehrman agreed to be his tool for this venture, leading to his own imprisonment in the Dream? As is typical for Laurence, it didn't end up saving him from the Nightmare, but I still wonder if this theory holds water after all these years, because I feel it's such a central lore point with a whole lot of potential.

[@00Boogie]

"[W]ith the hope that former compatriots might be returned to the skies[.]" "The Sky and the Cosmos are One." I feel so dumb that I only just now but those two bits of information together.

[@serbiancrusader7813]

4 years later and we are still getting high quality lore videos. Bloodborne's greatness is something to behold.

[@whitetrashrobofficial1769]

Of all the theories I've encountered regarding the Fishing Hamlet, I think this one is the best and most compelling. I love the notion of the people of the Fishing Hamlet living in communion and symbiosis with the Mother Of Kos prior to the arrival of the Hunters and the Byrgenwerth butchers. It is VERY much in keeping with the source material from Lovecraft, especially the short story The Shadow Over Innsmouth. I know Bloodborne is only loosely based on Lovecraft but The Shadow Over Innsmouth is one of his foundational mythologies within his universe. In it, the villagers willingly commune with the Dagon-entity in a mutually beneficial relationship. Regardless, you wove a great narrative out of this material. Good job!

[@josiahgarber3761]

It’s almost reminiscent of the Garden of Eden. Man walked with deity until it decided to search out forbidden knowledge and arrogantly transgress in order to make themselves like the divine. All those connected to these transgressions are cursed to forever suffer

[@Anker]

What happened in the Fishing Village stays with you. It's the equivalent of raping a whole town. Disturbing, haunting; it goes deep beyond the game because it mirrors what happened during real wars (check out the sino-japanese war crimes) - there are no words to describe the horror. As much as I love the souls trilogy, Bloodborne goes beyond all that. It's horror echoes reality; it is visceral, solid, heavy, relentless.

[@justinchalifoux4424]

This game (and especially the dlc) is spectacular for showing a very untouched part of cosmic horror. We humans are just as much as a cosmic monstrosity to these Gods as they are to us. Maybe even worse...

[@HM4Hill]

19:26 Very bold move to roll backwards for Ludwigs big slash

[@maniago2309]

yeah, what a chad

[@chazzwozzio]

@@maniago2309 yeah what a me

[@biomechan6269]

I've gained some Insight after this, well done!

[@blingsing5383]

Love the bloodbourne lore I feel like there is still more to cover even after all this time

[@dontsubscribe8292]

Imagine an adult orphan of Kos. God have mercy

[@kingcalamity4350]

It's the exact same fight, but now he inflicts frenzy

[@Lakefront_Khan]

For some reason I imagined a giant buff orphan with big ass butterfly wings doing a JoJo pose

[@kingkangiv1615]

@@kingcalamity4350 by looking at you.

[@viktor_v-ughnda_vaudville_476]

Not only does he cause frenzy but is immune to firearms has flame and electricity control so not only immune but can offensively use them infinite stamina and hunters bone dash and above all nullifies bloodtinge preventing you from using it and can also wield it making him only valuable to the kos parasite and beast mode or he could just be the master of an even more potent dream where you never find the source and are damned for eternity in chalice dungeons fighting winter lanterns and amygdala with sages as normal enemies

[@thewahyudin1901]

F*CK off mate your giving us nightmare

[@breannafreeze1886]

I loved the full chants you inserted, very chilling and haunting. 💀

[@GrampaCramps]

Bloodborne was a striking game, not only in its visuals and gameplay, but in its deep, dark lore that went far beyond what I could have imagined. Thanks for making this man, It's always nostalgic to learn more about this game.

[@BBoy4040]

That "mother is dead, her baby taken" chanting is so fucking creepy but I don't remember her saying that in the game, just the "curse the children forever true, etc."

[@n8doggy733]

My first time watching anything you made not Elden Ring related, Im very excited as I love this game vey much and never really delved deep into the dlc. Glad you made some vids as I love your content, thnx again!

[@SmoughTown]

Thank so much, will hopefully get back to Bloodborne some day!

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Also, Eileen is a representation of the Buddhist practice of the sky burial. Her set even mentions a return to the sky after death.

[@spiridiums]

Bloodborne is my favorite game and this is why: no other game that I've come across puts such a deep dive into the lore and the story, where elements like this are STILL being discussed six years later. I'm a little late to the discussion here, but you've given me a lot to think about, and I can't help but agree with all the points being made. Incredible, honestly. I love this game so much.

[@jerielchua9272]

I still play Bloodborne from time to time, there's nothing like it, what a masterpiece.

[@Horaud]

Awesome video man I remember the podcast with Sin and Richie! Always a pleasure watching your videos bro!

[@SmoughTown]

Horaud thanks my man! I really appreciate you checking it out

[@PungentTowelWasTaken]

This video made me realize that Bloodborne has a nice double meaning. Blood borne referring to how diseases and viruses are spread which is relevant to the beast blood and the infection that came with ingesting it. And then the other meaning, Blood Born, meaning the hunters were born into the vicious cycle of paying for the original sin which was caused by the Old Hunters. They're cursed forever more, and are therefore blood-born. Hahaha idk if that's a stretch but I like that connection.

[@r3turnfyre426]

What if Ebrietas is the actual physical form of the Orphan that was taken away by the Church? She is called "daughter of the COSmos" after all

[@luisalamo-rivera5787]

The parallels between Buddhist mythology/ Japanese folktales with Bloodborne’s own narrative is one I never considered. Seriously enlightening stuff! BB has one of my all time favorite settings and history in any media and this just added a whole nother level of appreciation for me

[@secondone1645]

Thank you for the video, this is the best take on BB DLC I've seen so far. A bit deeper than the rest out there.

[@daniellea.423]

Man, I could listen to your voice for hours. Great video as always

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks so much! I appreciate that

[@Fr0st7]

@@SmoughTown are you scottish?

[@SmoughTown]

noobmaster69 yeah man!

[@Fr0st7]

@@SmoughTown nice. i like your voice and style too! keep it up man

[@pabloraulpereyra4948]

X2

[@f25mart]

Years later and i'm just finding these bloodborne lore videos: Just amazing stuff. Never drew the parallels between The death of Jesus as the child of God with the death of Kos as the child of a Great One, Kos. Just insane lore by fromsoft. WTF were they smoking/drinking when they created this world.

[@TheCatsrules]

This was one of the best Bloodborne lore videos I've ever watched, please make more!

[@o0Avalon0o]

Dang, the voice acting in this is just beautiful.

[@1993russy]

Recently revisited bloodborne again and rewatching all your videos on bloodborne, this has got to be one of the best discussion videos! I love the intro it really sets the tone of this DLC 😌

[@00Boogie]

Not quite halfway yet, but it just struck me the Drifting Ashore God has similarities with the rite of Communion. In the latter case there is room to argue the degree of symbolism, but in the former the eating of the divine flesh is quite literal. Not sure what it may mean in the context of Bloodborne, but an interesting parallel across cultures. On a bit of a tangent, the Greeks had a practice of eating the meat of a sacrifice while bones and fat and such were for the gods. A far cry from consuming the divine essence directly, they are sharing a meal with their gods. Just food for thought.

[@aladdinsalih7617]

It's amazing how 5-6 years after the release of the game we still thinking about it and trying to figure it out, one of the most beautiful and important games in history

[@Grandsheba]

I always thought the child of Kos was Ebrittas, daughter of the cosmos. Which is why she is always looking up towards her slayin mother in the dream realms above yharnam. If you walk out on the water at the fishing hamlet you see yharnam and the grand cathedral below where she would be. There are also parallels between the old hunters dream route to the final great one and how you traverse upper cathedral ward. The one we fight called the orphan of Kos is Gherman. We kill all of those who were involved in the massacre, we kill their nightmare forms I guess. Gherman being the final one for us to slay, he wasn't a great one at all as we never got the notification when he is slain that we do when you kill a great one. It seemed to me like an eye for an eye type of deal where we had to take responsibility for our ancestors ignorant curiosity. Thus born from the Kosom was the curse of the first hunter Gherman. The nightmare he screams out help from when sleeping in the hunters dream is the old hunters nightmare which is a parallel to the chalice dungeons. Where one is a projection of the other I feel. But this is just my theory on everything. Tell me what you think of it or not meh.

[@jacobhoover1654]

Im pretty sure she is looking at the corpse of Rom on the alter in front of her, it doesn't look like she is looking up.

[@jimijenkins2548]

Ebrietas is found in the Isz catacomb, because all other great ones from Isz ascended, and she was unable to. You find her mourning at Rom's corpse because she is sad that she cannot ascend like Rom. The Orphan has clearly ascended, as it exists in a nightmare, which sets it apart from Ebrietas. Also, after killing the Orphan of Kos, a shadowy form appears tied to the corpse of Kos. Upon hitting it, you get the "nightmare slain" text, denoting the Orphan as a Great One. Feel free to issue any corrections.

[@bakedgoods9182]

Maria was definitely the first hunter of hunters. The blade of mercy is the only weapon aside from the burial blade made of siderite and it’s fighting style is very similar to the rakuyos. Plus it’s states that the first hunter of hunters came from a foreign land, and cainhurst definitely fits.

[@jo-fhreycorpuz]

Ancenstral Guilt/Sin is in Some way true. When you think of it the action of our elders affects the environment,emotions,beliefs,reaction and behaviours of young ones. And may or will passed down to next generation.

[@justinchalifoux4424]

All the old companies have been ravaging this earth for hundred of years now. Ancestral sin is very much real

[@stephenjenkins7971]

@@justinchalifoux4424 Yeah, and your sins will damn future generations too. :D

[@specialk8888]

Brah loved the video! Bloodborne is my favourite game and has been since I first played it back in 2015. The parallels you made between the game and the bible was pretty inspiring. Loved it!

[@FriendlyDarkwraith]

Every Great One inevitably loses their child and yearns for a surrogate. This implies that the stillbirth of a Great One's child is a necessary byproduct of their attempts to reproduce, which is why they need to impregnate humans and their ancestors as surrogates. So what if Kos, being the great mother that she is, decided to lay down her own life for the sake of her child, which is why she died and washed up onshore while still being pregnant? Then the scholars and hunters show up, butcher the hamlet's inhabitants, and rip out the umbilical cord of Kos' child (which is how they got the bait to beckon the Moon Presence in the first place), killing it in the process. It'd be especially ironic if in their quest to ascend, they killed what could have been the bridge between humanity and the Great Ones, and instead beckoned a malicious god that only used them to carry out its own desires. Humanity gets its second chance, however, once the Moon Presence is killed and enough Great One umbilical cords are consumed to transcend the Good Hunter into an infant Great One, like the Orphan of Kos was supposed to be before he was aborted.

[@jarltryggvi]

I would argue one addition to this theory. I do not think that the Orphan of Kos was dissected by the Scholars. I think it was studied then used for early Dream Experiments that led to the Hunter’s Dream, making the likely Identity of the Orphan of Kos to be the Moon Presence, AKA Flora. There are a few hints to this in the game and some cut content. When the Orphan is “born” or whatever you call that during the cutscene he looks out at the moon. The Moon Presence’s body is still a little humanoid underneath the tentacles. In cut content there appears to be a fight with a half formed moon presence on the beach where the Orphan is fought. To follow this then comes the endings of the game. Every ending except the ending where the Moon Presence is slain results in new Hunters continuing to exist thus fulfilling the Curse of Kos where the Descendants of the Hunters would be cursed forever by supplying Hunters to it. Side note: Purgatory and Hell are not the same in a theological sense. The Hunter’s Nightmare is a Hell not a Purgatory. Not gonna get into the details of that here.

[@codrs2662]

Except that’s not the moon. It’s the sun. Lmfao. You obviously didn’t play the dlc cause you didn’t look up once

[@jarltryggvi]

@@codrs2662 why would morning come in the village when the Orphan is put to rest if the sun was already in the sky as you say?

[@jarltryggvi]

@@codrs2662 also why does the player look like Kos in the ending where the player ascends and becomes a Great One?

[@jarltryggvi]

@@codrs2662 there is no reason to be insulting bucko.

[@elderliddle2733]

Loved the biblical comparisons. But I think another curse could be accounted for here as inspiration of the hunters nightmare. The curse of Cain. In the book of genesis, Cain murders Abel, his righteous brother who reverently worships God in an act of jealousy and greed. He is then visited by God, who describes how Abel’s spirit wants vengeance for his murder. Cain is then cursed to wander the land with a mark on him. Cain had followers who departed from that area with him and dwelt in the land of Nod. According to several apocryphal texts, it is said Cain wandered the earth killing and destroying everything he came across, and passed on his mark to his children and their children. So in essence, it’s a blood curse.

[@BoodyCheek]

Actually, fast forward to nowadays, this story instead kinda reminds me of the Dungeater from elden ring

[@Deathworg1]

Hear me out. The great ones cannot have children. We understand this but this condition can take many forms. All we know is that apparently they can't have children. What if mother kos beached herself so that her unborn child could survive? If she dies and her unborn child then rises from her corpse then technically she didn't "have" the child. Then the hunters came and desecrated what was essentially the cause for her sacrifice.

[@dadevi]

No. The lore states that The Great Ones lose their children, meaning that they can never raise them to maturity.

[@sagarsingh247]

This might be the best video on Bloodborne lore to this day.

[@dyliososcioso650]

Thanks so much for clearing up a lot of my confusion about the dlc!

[@DkKombo]

I had a fanfic in mind, that the hunter, (our character) was suicidal with the truth of killing Innocents, and went mad when discovering the truth, but a learned alchemist nonetheless. They use their knowledge to sacrifice himself to raise Kos where they have fear of drowning, and so plunges themselves in the water as they slowly die, facing their fear, hatred and bloodlust and taking on their sins. But Kos takes pity on them, and in their dying breath, she bonds them with her dead child, marking them as her own, and in turn sacrifices herself to raise her new child in this new body, to both take revenge, forgive and defeat the curse. This, in conjunction with the umbilical cords, is what allow you to become a newborn great one, in my eyes.

[@DkKombo]

@Danny BRITZMAN Oh yeah I totally switched up between using him to they that gets confusing.

[@DkKombo]

@Danny BRITZMAN lemme fix that

[@DkKombo]

@Danny BRITZMAN Ehhhhh wouldn't know how to make it my own. I'm creative but not in that way.

[@DkKombo]

@Danny BRITZMAN Oh, yeah I can see that being a thing.

[@bobjoneswof]

This video was so good well done!

[@SmoughTown]

bobjoneswof thanks my friend!

[@donkongo5272]

This is SO well made, and I love this interpretation of the lore!!! Phenomenal 😊

[@SmoughTown]

Thank you so much!

[@knightslayer6161]

I love how we got our answers and yet we still feel like we missed something. Only lore I feel like we don’t have everything on are on the land of Loran which seems to sit in sunlight and desert. And the pthumerians and cainhurst. I’m pretty sure cainhurst are descendants of pthumerians and that pthumerians we’re descendants of lords similar to dark souls lords. As they have remnants of lost arcanes, sentient demon beast, and magic-staff like weapons similar to dark souls.

[@chasethecringewolf2195]

I still am curious about why they say “kos is dead.” I think if anything it makes sense that she was alive but Gehrman entered the ocean the same way we enter the lake to fight Rom. I think it makes more sense that Kos is just a former boss Gehrman left behind and we have to take the table scraps lol Assuming Kos was harder than the Orphan. Also id like to point out the surgery alter statue seems to imply Willem, Mensis, and the Choir were working together on Kos, this to me implies that Willem didn’t split from Laurence until after The Hamlet. Hence why he would have the cord (now in fake Iosefka’s possession) after separating from Laurence. I also would like to point out how people appear in the Nightmare after death, like the Older Madaras Twin, but since he was not Blood Drunk he died and left said Nightmare.

[@TYR1139]

I always get confused about it, in the DLC, the rumors say that the old hunters began to dissapear, not to die especificly, and if you have the eye of a blood drunk hunter an amigdala take you there phisicaly, and prople like Simon, Vart, Brador are pretty alive (at least for me). Gehrman did'nt go there because of the hunter's dream, but when you kill him he defently stay dead. So I think it doesn't matter if you are alive or not, you still get there... somehow??? The other is that, Kos death could have happen before even Byrgenwerth appear, and my theory is bassed on the references. The hamlet used the parasites that lived inside Kos to... whatever they did with them, and if you read about japanese culture, they often believed that when a whale die on the beach, people thought it was a Kami that sacrifices himself to help the village, and the way Kosm is in the shore, (I mean, how other way could the hamlet get so many parasites, seems unlikely that Kos give them to the village) maybe her corpse just get stuck on the beach. Following then, Kos cursed the hunters for stealing the "umbilical cord" that her child needed to ascend and mature as a great one and that's why the orphan looks old.

[@chasethecringewolf2195]

David Atehortua David Atehortua Firstly whose Vart? Valtr? Secondly im saying that it appears as if things that die in the waking world just move from layer to layer of the nightmare realms. With the massacre of the Hamlet it seems that the fish people there had appeared there after death, the Orphan as well. We see Simon alive and Brador but whats the difference between them and the rest of the Hunters? They aren’t insane, they aren’t blooddrunk. So it seems when they die they move on to the next Nightmare realm, oddly though Simon and Brador don’t dissolve like other Hunter kills do. As for Kos in the Shadow over Innsmouth the town goers make sacrifice’s to the Deep Ones in return for riches and fish. Considering how benevolent the town and Kos is there was probably a symbiotic relationship between the town and her. As for the Orphan incase it isnt clear the Orphan of Kos we fight is actually Gehrman. Compare the cries the Orphan gives at the intro to Gehrman’s cry as he asks to be unshackled under the red moon. They are the same cry. Not to mention the Orphan’s placenta and strands of flesh cape resemble Gehrman. What this appears to be is Gehrman would be in the Nightmare if he wasn’t the Host of the Hunter’s Dream. He would’ve been in the same body as the Orphan meant to suffer with it. So when Gehrman is asleep having a Nightmare he is most likely being drifted off to the Nightmare experiencing what the Orphan does. Similar to how The Doll dreams of Lady Maria Once we kill Maria and the Orphan, a change is noticed on both The Doll and Gehrman, both have been freed of the Nightmare.

[@TYR1139]

@@chasethecringewolf2195 Why after death?, our character go there without dying, and I believe Simon too, perhaps the same way we did.

[@richardjessiejohnson9108]

dude...this echoes differently in the mind of every indigenous person who hears it, I swear.

[@litchqueenasenath5995]

The fishing hamlet is my favorite part of bloodborne and probably the scariest for me. The fucking shark giants remind me of Dagon

[@YepKira]

It’s been a while since I’ve just sat down and watched some souls lore because I’ve watched most videos on KZbin but your channel has got me back into that souls mood Thank You!

[@maddchassie5723]

Love your videos, friend and fellow nerd. Keep up the good work. And thanks for revisiting one of my favorite titles. It has some of the best lore out there.

[@SmoughTown]

Madd Chassie Thanks bud! Totally agree

[@motage_4487]

Love your voice. Also nice video and great job at keeping my attention. I've subscribed.

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks buddy. Glad you liked it 😀

[@Bruh-be3lh]

On my first play through of Bloodborne and I like the gameplay but the lore is so complex and complicated you almost get thrown into it and just want to learn more and more

[@lazarious5424]

That intro..... So chilling...... Love this games feel even till this day we need a bloodborne two

[@basicsyphilis8]

Lazarious 542 I do ❤️ this game as well. Sorry for asking but I have to. Platinum? BB was my 1st & I feel special 😅

[@lazarious5424]

@@basicsyphilis8 one the very few games iv got a platinum in. iv bought the game three times lol... Although one was for my friend so we could Co op. the second was because my first ps4 was stolen years ago and I wanted to play though it again.

[@basicsyphilis8]

Lazarious 542 💩 That blows! Your ps4 getting stolen 😱 I almost got the game a second time digitally on sale for $5

[@BigBadBalrog]

I actually kind of like the idea that Maria is talking about leaving a corpse well alone because she regrets what they did to the villagers after slaughtering them, and that she's trying to protect the village and the orphan from us.

[@ywnrnf6028]

“In a more formal manner.” Knowing how those podcasts go I severely doubt that.

[@zynboy4118]

I think he said informal

[@CokeNoseGoat]

And to think you had been making bloodborne content long before I found you. Great video my friend!

[@mikedddd714]

I love Bloodborne. Its the only From Soft game I have ever beat.

[@TheNightWolf-WildCraft]

Sekiro is amazing as well never played any of the Souls games though a lil too slow for my taste

[@vangoghsseveredear]

If you loved Bloodborne, do yourself a favour and give the others a try. You won't regret it. I hate to say this, but if the first one feels slow to you, maybe try starting with dark souls 3 and you could always work your way back. They're so good. Not quite Bloodborne, but still awesome.

[@basicsyphilis8]

Van Goghs Severed Ear I bet you have the platinum right? To Bloodborne? Maybe even the rest😅

[@vangoghsseveredear]

@@basicsyphilis8 hahaha nawh man. I own and beat all the games, did all the bosses, but I'm not a platinum kind of guy. I like the games, but going for platinum seems a bit tedious lmao

[@mikedddd714]

@@basicsyphilis8 I wish but I did beat the moon dude and became a worm with super cosmic powers

[@emilemerten6535]

It says a great one can’t bear a child but the orphan of cos is shown to be german, so german took the place of the child and is being cured that is why you take its place as the child when the moon presence comes.

[@szharychev]

If I understood correctly original child of Kos looked nothing like Orphan of Kos it was more like the mother (sluggish thing). While Orphan of Kos got his human-like representation in the dream because of hunters who in fact desecrated the corpse of Kos and given the child to Healing Church which brutally killed and dissected it. So basically Orphan of Kos is a product of "rape" which was committed by hunters a while ago and when we kill it in nightmare we basically relief its soul (black figure in the end of video) which returns back to the ocean, where it belongs (btw looks like Herman had connection with Orphan from the Hunter's Dream, because after Orphan's death he sleeps well once for a very long time). Also not connected but interesting thing: Micolash says that Kos granted godhood to Rom who was a student of Master Willem, but not to the last one. My interpretation, but it was sort of the punishment for Byrgenwerth's role in this sin: random student gets this power, but not the one who made so much to get in contact with the Great Ones.

[@thehippieboy6927]

There will never be enough Bloodborne content

[@XDRONIN]

Question, Where is the child of mother Kos? I mean, where is its body? Because, as you said; if we take the events of Bloodborne chronologically, the events at the beginning of the game happen long after what happened in the fishing village. So if they took her child, its body must be somewhere in the game, right?

[@Ava-my9yj]

XDRONIN you find its umbilical cord in the hunters workshop in the waking world

[@DARKMalice9000]

@@Ava-my9yj That is the umbilical cord of the vilebloods it was changed in patch one bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/One+Third+of+Umbilical+Cord go to trivia

[@jacobhoover1654]

Isn't the Orphan the child?

[@paleoleft]

@@jacobhoover1654 the child mergos wet nurse protects? if thats who you mean, then no, thats mergo, child of Queen Yharnam and presumably oedon

[@jacobhoover1654]

@@paleoleft I'm referencing the "child" of the original post, the child of Kosm, not the child of Yharnam. Since your mum left, I can see why u would make that mistake :p

[@spookieboogi6161]

I always have this belief the sins of the father are not the sins of the son and my hunter would refuse to be held responsible for the sins of his ancestors and choose instead to defy a petty curse laid by a petty god

[@dezopenguin9649]

Excellent summary and evaluation!

[@SmoughTown]

DezoPenguin thanks my friend :)

[@cremitasam]

This was really cool. I've always interpreted as the hunters killed Kos and took her baby. Never considered the possibility that she was already dead upon her arrival to the hamlet as per the parasite description

[@prototype1029]

That's what I always thought as well. I interpreted the hamlet story as the great one showing up in the bay and making a deal with the village to give them the parasites and other things, in return she could stay there. When the church heard of a village that came in contact and made a deal with a great one, they sent out hunters to take kos by force, but while trying to take her they accidentally killed her, they were then ordered to cut her apart to look for eyes and augers. While they were butchering her, gerhman and Maria eventually discovered she was pregnant and were then ordered to take her baby. When the villagers learned that not only was their god killed and butchered, but her baby stolen. They cursed the hunters, making them thirst for blood like they did when they murdered their god. Thus, in combination of the curse from queen yharnam turning people into beasts, and the curse from kos making people crave blood, the church, and the city eventually fell to ruin.

[@jamesdeek7039]

Isnt the orphan attached to a giant fish hook? As if Kos was killed like when a fish swallows the hook

[@vksasdgaming9472]

I think Fishing Hamlet in Nightmare is in a sense stuck in a limbo. It's inhabitants are unaware of things happening around them and time is still. Inhabitants of Hamlet fished Kos and worshipped it as divine and Byrgenwerthians thought that only they should have knowledge of Great Ones and thus wanted to take it to themselves. For some reason they did not do it, but their greed did influence Kos to bear a child. Maybe it was already doing it as benevolent god, but changed its mind towards vengeance. When Hunter arrives to Kos' corpse it brings time and thus Orphan of Kos is born with great pain to a world of suffering which wants it dead.

[@SinclairLore]

Awesome!

[@SmoughTown]

Thanks Sin and thanks for talking it through with me :)

[@JohnathanJWells]

Blood Drunkenness is not the curse. Everyone gets addicted to the blood, hunter or not. I think the nightmare is likely the curse.

[@Mr_Bibbles]

Finally, an explanation that makes sense to me. Lol

[@saladmancer4802]

i just noticed the phantom you see after you kill the orphan is just the model of an unused mimic enemy from demons souls

[@DaGreatOzzie]

Great stuff, it all makes much more sense to me now

[@Gamefreak2998]

I’m personally not sure if Ludwig was ever truly overcome by the curse of beasts or blood, it feels like unbeknownst to him he exists in that layer of the nightmare to punish the hunters who sinned endlessly while he himself teeters on the edge of his own sanity

[@Bodmanford]

So orphan is an embodiment of the rage it felt towards the hunters

[@mysillycomics]

A NEW BLOODBORNE LORE VIDEO??? IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD KOS (OR KOSM) 2019????? OUR EYES ARE OPEN

[@Occultic-t6s]

Or Kosm, lmao

[@silosh3460]

You got eyes? *Byrgenwerth wants to know your location*

[@seeker_rodan3113]

It still hurts to come back to this story. Not many stories get to me but this one, this one cuts deep

[@tonesdad0408]

Yes! Please, more, more, more, more,....

[@SmoughTown]

Defo more on the cards!

[@tonesdad0408]

@@SmoughTown right on, I'm here to enjoy them when they're ready!

[@pabloraulpereyra4948]

We neeed moreeee!

[@josiahgarber3761]

Gherman and Maria might be analogous to Adam and Eve in that they are the originators of the transgression, and their sin was grasping forbidden knowledge. The Healing Church misuses the knowledge of the Great Ones to bring further their own greatness, analogous to the sins of the medieval Catholic Church or Ancient Israel distorting the Law to further their own greatness. There may be more parallels, but I don’t want to stretch it

[@jaimepe4765]

I don't think the versions of Kos and her orphan we fight are the ones Maria and Gherman saw. The versions we see are corrupted versions created in the nightmare, that's why the orphan looks like Gherman (has his voice, and a sort of fleshy burial blade made from the placenta). At the same time, the human face of Kos is very suspicious. Especially since there are also copies of Kos in the Nightmare Frontier (the squid creatures that have messengers/orphans under it).

[@KirkWilliams300]

I am not sure if the Old Hunters artbook is canon, but it states that the hunters killed Kos and I always wondered why we don’t find more hunters we encounter like Gascoigne again in this area

[@pouihurmen]

Precisely because she’s already been killed. Their job was done, basically. Also I wouldn’t try too hard to make sense out of the level layouts or enemy placements in the DLC as it is a nightmare and therefore convoluted by nature but also layered. The player is meant to find out the secrets by peeling back layer after layer, first encountering the blood-drunk trapped hunters then the person protecting the secret of those hunters‘ sin and finally said secret.

[@kylehart8829]

Simply slaughtering the villagers was clearly not the cause of the shame of Byrgenwerth. It simply can't be; they continued to run horrific experiments and had no shame for this, meaning that the scholars obviously did something far worse than a massacre. Taking the umbilical cord from the corpse of Kos, and somehow preventing the Orphan from perishing (without Kos losing her child she was missing a trait of all true Great Ones), was the true sin. Rather than desecrating the child of Kos by killing it, they desecrated it by leaving it alive. This is why killing the Orphan in the nightmare causes the priest to praise your actions rather than condemn them.

[@gregheffley3332]

I guess because it cursed the hunters not the scholars, implying it was the hunters actions that pissed off mother KOS

[@MrCollyT]

The fishing hamlet is placed above the other areas in the hunter's nightmare, not below

[@Aere395]

Well researched and read, you've gained another subscriber here!

[@EggBeatzz]

Wait so.. I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what exactly happened when Kos washed up on shore. So the villagers began to worship her "corpse". When Byrgenwerth found out about KOs, they sent Maria and Gehrman to investigate. What exactly happened when they got there? Did they kill Kos or was she already dead? Did they kill the villagers? Did they take the fetus and bring it to the Healing Church?????

[@RobertBrownieJr]

Great explanation. Bloodborne is cemented well within my top three games of all time. How many games this old still have an audience and a burning desire for a sequel amongst them?

[@theranger3318]

I wonder if Yamamura was the foreign hunter that was the first Hunter of Hunters

[@blasuqar]

Kos must be the Moon Presence. We see with Micolash that one can be dead in one world/dream and alive in another, that she's dead in the Hunter's Nightmare doesn't make her dead in the Hunter's dream. After look at the fact that all fishers bleed that colorless blood like the celestials, who are clearly related to the red moon and the Moon Presence, that their skull was investigated to find eyes, look at the eyes inside Ludwig second's head (we need that Kos grants eyes) and the fact that the lights of the cosmos are shining inside his sword. With this, you have the fact that the Orphan of Kos is definitely a giant messenger, like the ones of the Hunter's Dream, where the Moon Presence appears. Well, I think those are quite solid proofs, I'm cinvinced that there is more evidence about this in the game, but it's been a long time since I've beaten BB, don't remember them all.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

But Kos and the Moon Presense look nothing alike, and it seems like Kos was slain/found dead depending how you interpret it a long, long time ago. Also, where would Orphan be in that scenario?

[@blasuqar]

@@vangoghsseveredear I can give my point about this, I have time today. But when you start to justify your views over the lore of a From Soft's game, it becomes horribly long, read only if you have time to waste. You're right to point the problem of the appearance, yet I don't think that the differences in the bodies are an issue. Here are the exemples I remember about a being looking very different between the waking world and a nightmare, if you're bored with the listing, jump to the end for the rest of the answer. 1) Oedon is nothing in Yharnam, and appears like that horrific Wet Nurse in the Nighmare of Mensis (I guess it's Oedon since you have Nightmare Slain and no other candidate to identify Mergo's Wet Nurse). 2) The School of Mensis made its ritual to beckon Mergo (this is said in an item description, I'm pretty sure of that), and you see that one of the main result was the apparition of The One Reborn, again, the only candidate we have to identify that thing is Mergo, and it makes sense that The One Reborn is Mergo provided that it appears where the ritual was performed. So in Yharnam, Mergo appears like that monstruosity, and only be an unseen baby in the Nightmare of Mensis. 3) A human skull exists for Laurence in the Nightmare, and his skull in Yharnam is one of a beast (said by Myazaki about the skull in the cathedral). With this, Laurence is probably that headless beast you find at the bottom of the Labyrinth in the waking world, and appears like a burning cleric beast in the Nightmare. 4) There is even a theory, less supported inside the game, that the forgotten madman you find in the Labyrinth could be what remains of Ludwig, again quite a big body difference between two worlds. For the time when Kos was found, I don't see why this would be an issue, and I've always thought that Kos was slained/found dead at the time of the Old Hunters, i.e just after the discovery of the Old Blood. But for the time of the discovery, you can correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time since I've beaten the game. Where does the Orphan comes in this scenario? I have no definive answer for this, but the presence of the Orphan in the Hunter's Nightmare doesn't contradict the Moon Presence being Kos. Actually, it's a key piece of evidence, since the Hunter's Nightmare is quite clearly related to the Moon Presence. The reasons I have for this 1) the Orphan is an XXL messenger 2) the white-blooded celestials only appear in areas related to the red moon: the red moon doesn't appear everywhere, and is gigantic over the Choir, where Celestials and brain lickers are found. More, the brain lickers and the insectoid Scholars with white blood appear in Byrgenwerth after Willem involved Kos in a ritual that granted Rom its eyes: "as you once did it for the vacuous Rom, grant us eyes" (btw, this is a big evidence that Kos isn't completely dead/dead everywhere: since it interacted with Willem in this process), and that ritual is clearly related to the Moon Presence: the red moon is directly mentioned for the first time in Byrgenwerth, if the game puts it there, it must indicate that the scholars had great interest in it, and it litteraly falls on your head after you defeat Rom. The celestial stuff: white blood, flowers (and you see that the Living Failures send you in the cosmos during the fight in the garden full of flowers) are appearing as well in the Hunter's Nightmare, the nightmare of Kos/Kosm, and you even have "Ebrietas, daughter of the cosmos (hi Kos)" who is presented along with that celestial stuff in the Choir. 3) The opposition Hunter's Dream/Hunter's Nightmare mimics the opposition Doll/Moon Presence, with the two entities appearing like the two faces of the same coin. There's definitely a huge part of the lore around this: the Doll ("the nameless moon presence" imo), blesses the hunters with the power of the blood, likely created Blood Therapy*, while the Moon Presence annihilates the power of Blood Therapy (you see it during the bossfight, she suppresses your ability to heal) ; with this, you see that the pale moon representing the Doll is crushed by the red moon of the Moon Presence when she appears. We see with this that the Doll is opposing the Moon Presence, and meanwhile, she also appears in complete opposition to the the nightmare of Kos, the Hunter's Nightmare. We know that the hunters of hunters are killing the mad beast hunters who are about to fall in the Hunter's Nightmare "so that they can find rest in the Hunter's Dream" (I remember an item description stating this), the "mercy" that the old fisher wants the Orphan to obtain is directly linked to the Hunter's Dream: "I will show you mercy" (Gehrman), "Blades of Mercy" (weapons of Eileen), plus Gehrman finds relief after the Orphan is killed. I think there is enough out there to believe that the opposition Doll/Moon Presence and Doll/Kos are not independant things, which also makes me think that Kos is actually the Moon Presence. Without this, the Moon Presence struggles to find its place in Bloodborne's world. Those explanations don't clarify everything, I struggle to explain the exact nature of the connection between the Moon Presence, the Doll and the Celestials; or what the first sin exactly is (Gehrman and likely Laurence summoning the Doll and creating the Hunter's Dream with the Ombilical Chord? Willem driving off the Moon presence by creating Rom? Something else, with the Old Hunters killing Kos at some point?); or why the fallen hunters have vermins in their blood, which seems to connect to the scourge of the beast and Oedon; or why the weapons related to Oedon/Cainhurst (basically, I'm speaking of the Chikage) are so effective against the Moon Presence and the entities related to it, Ebrietas, the Orphan and the Celestials, but I think the theory is quite solid. * the Healing's Church doesn't worshipp Oedon in the first place, among other things: we know that the Pthumerians did it, with Queen Yharnam giving birth to its child Mergo, but the place of Yharnam which is directly linked to the Labyrinth and the Ptumerians is Cainhurst, and the Vilebloods are precisely called heretics by the Church, i.e guys who don't worshipp the right god/Great One. Btw, it's consistent with the Choir summoning Ebrietas, a being related to the Moon Presence.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

@@blasuqar well that's actually a much more thought out theory than I had originally given you credit for, to be honest. I too, struggle to understand where the moon presence fits into all of it. I'm not sure that I agree with you, but it definitely gave me a lot to think about. I appreciate it man! Personally I think the first sin was either the curse of Kos/atrocities committed by Byrgenwyrth to the village, or is much more biblical and is literally meant to be symbolic of the Bible's "first sin". Tough to say though

[@blasuqar]

@@vangoghsseveredear the magic with From Soft's games is precisely that we can't agree on everything. We will always be chasing this truth and collecting evidence to try to find the least worst explanation about what is going on in Miyazakis' worlds, this explanation will always have some flaws, and everybody will embrace different explanations depending on which inconsistencies they find acceptable and which they don't. I'm glad that you found this interesting, thanks for giving me the occasion to put what I had in the head into words!

[@arealhumanbean3058]

@@blasuqar On your first point: The nightmare slain given by Wet nurse is that by killing her, we also kill Mergo, which is the child of Oedon, which makes Mergo a Great One

[@BayleGlazer-b1n]

My favorite theory is essentially that Gherman and Maria showed up to the fishing hamlet, left many dozens of corpses for scholars to dissect for eyes, then went and killed kos using the ships that the fishing hamlet denizens would normally use just for fish. I think that their symbiosis with kos was that they did not disturb her and she in turn would keep the sea bountiful with fish which were likely kos parasites, this explains why there are no large pieces of siege equipment in the fishing hamlet, only nets and harpoons that never pierced kos as we can tell by the only scar being from a giant fishing hook, something that the fish men we see don’t ever associate with. Then when the hunters showed up, kos was eventually discovered at sea by ever curious scholars who then instructed whatever hunters they could to go out and kill it to try and gain more insight on the world, kos clearly fought well as several ships were destroyed but was brought down just before successfully giving birth to the first child of a great one. (the only part I can’t be sure of is whether or not they took the fetus’s body for experiments) After this, kos created the nightmare and put her faith in the one being she knew not only had the strength to host it, but also the intense devotion to never letting the murderers of its mother rest peacefully, her son, The Orphan of Kos. This explains why it’s not kos who we kill to end the nightmare, but instead the orphan itself The whole story no matter how you spin it though, is fantastic with a really beautiful and complex moral dilemma of “why _should_ I end the nightmare?” woven around the simple plot of a mother who never got to hold her child in her arms.

[@greywillowgaming2366]

Today, I just finished The Old Hunters DLC for the first time ever. And all I'll say is an already 10/10 game just became a 15/10. Jesus Kos-kissing Christ.

[@viktor_v-ughnda_vaudville_476]

This was awesome I really enjoyed its content and delivery I only wish the parallels to queen yharnum and kos were discussed along with the relationship with kos and the other great ones involved in the overall world as they all stem from kos. And how lawrence has ended up underneath Ludwig in the center of the hunters nightmare as the manifestation of the besst curse set alight and resting upon an alter