Bolt Action Cartridge Conversion of a French M1822 Rifle

[@thebotrchap]

It is what is known as a “Samain” rifle named after Pierre Samain. The conversion was put forward in 1870 and was to be applied to any musket they could possibly do it on including imported US muskets. Production estimates are around 80000 made by a variety of private workshops. The base idea was sound but the quality of conversions fluctuated wildly. The cockerel stamp is the sign of the “monarchie de juillet”, the rule of Louis-Philippe I from 1830 to 1848.

[@thebotrchap]

John Anon My source is a book (in French) on the arms, both foreign and domestic, which found their way into French use during the 1870/71 campaign. There is quite a detailed article on them and it clearly states that there are countless minor variations made at the whim of the workshops. I think the locking catch is period made, this is because the Chassepot actually has a similar option. If the Chassepot bolt is put to an indexed 45° position and the trigger is pulled, the firing pin drops just a little (not enough to clear the bolt face) and locks the bolt handle. To fire you just need to recock the firing pin and turn the bolt down the remaining 45°.

[@thebotrchap]

Samain rifles are rare everywhere, they were mostly destroyed postwar.

[@curthatt6461]

The Chap k

[@TheMysticalBadger]

@@thebotrchap Can you provide a title for the book you mentioned? A friend of mine has a Samain chambered in .58 Berdan, and I'd like to have additional info for him.

[@thebotrchap]

TheMysticalBadger “Les Armes à feu de la défense nationale et leurs baïonnettes 1870-1871” by Jack Puaud & Christian Mery, editor is Crépin-Leblond ISBN 978-2-70-300314-4.

[@NazarovVv]

I love those conversions! I am curently restoring a Krnka Rifle, breach loading conversion of a Russian six line rifled musket.

[@ultramagnus4374]

Dimitar Nazarov wow, always wanted to see one of those. You should post a video

[@Hrajnoga]

Wow, do you have any pictures, please ?

[@NazarovVv]

Here are pictures from a couple of years back before I started. It's in rough shape but I've seen worse. I'll not be restoring it to shootable condition because frankly that's illegal in my country and you can't find ammo that isn't 150 years old or even remotely safe. This particular rifle is the infantry version and it's been in the family since the Russo-Turkish war of 1877 when the outdated Krnka's were given to the Bulgarian Volunteers. The Krnka also became the first Bulgarian service rifle after the liberation albeit for a very short time. Anyhow here's what it looks like: imgur.com/OGoOy2f imgur.com/QRJ8wM6 And here's what the ammo looks like 15.24x40mmR imgur.com/wFW9oAY And here it is next to a couple of Yatagan bayonets from a Turkish Martini-Henry rifle. When I am done with the clean up and refurbishing of the stock I will post before after pictures.

[@julemandenudengaver4580]

@@NazarovVv danm cool

[@MrGarwest]

Ian,We have illustrated this rifle in our book, 'The Needle-Ignition System of The Modele 1866 Chassepot' - Page 81, which you reviewed.It was designed by Pierre Samane, manufactured by Atelier de la Buire for Cahen-Lyon et Cie, made during the siege of Paris. In our view superior to the Tabatiere system and stronger around the wrist, which was a weakness of the Tabatiere.The bolt lock was to prevent it being opened accidentally.Other conversions for the 18x35R Gevelot cartridge illustrated: Mousqueton Hurtu Et Hautin and Hermann-Lachapelle - both bolt actions.This would be a great item for a collector and shooter of French arms, especially during the period of the Siege of Paris when any arms available were utilised. It at least chambered a mettalic cartridge.Hope this has been of use.Guy and Leonard A-R-West

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Thanks - I didn't have a copy of your book with me when I had access to the rifle, alas.

[@valrabellkeys9867]

We know Ian likes the old French rifles.

[@astrokaizer]

*all French rifles

[@pietzeekoe]

He could pass as an ersatz francey

[@StuSaville]

His French musketeer style beard is a bit of a giveaway...

[@pegzounet]

@stu, yeah he should be called d'Artagnan, not gun jesus

[@ianfurqueron5850]

I would almost think he plans to bid on this gun, although I've seen from a few past videos if the subject gun is one he actually wants then he'll often wait until after the auction to post the video.

[@neutralobserver3423]

Note to all current gunsmiths and firearms designers/manufacturers: PLEASE mark your stuff properly so that Ian McCollum XVI can give you proper credit in the "Forgotten Weapons" episodes which will be produced in 2470! :-)

[@Bladsmith]

Note to Franklin Armory: PLEASE mark your stuff properly so that Ian McCollum I can give you proper credit in the "Forgotten Weapons" episodes which will be produced in 2020!

[@gunner678]

What a development that old musket has been through....amazing utility.

[@thatguynameddan2136]

That is a remarkably nice looking rifle for its age. There are times im amazed things like this have actually managed to survive as long as they have.

[@ironwolfF1]

Yes, and no... non-American countries, with no history of mass private firearms ownership, tend to moth-ball their weapons (unless they can sell them off for profit / foreign influence). If the original metallurgy was sound, and with the rifling in good condition, a cartridge conversion would be cheaper (and quicker) than tooling up a production line in a state arsenal. Heck, just think about what the Russians have squirreled away in bunkers / warehouses out in the middle of nowhere.

[@mazkact]

When a M 1822 and a Berdan love each other very much.

[@remcodenouden5019]

When it makes more sense to measure your barrel length in feet instead of inches

[@eriock80]

Hi, since you mention it should have been converted in the 70's, it was most probably made in 1871 to help equip the new republican armies after the collapse of the 2nd Empire.

[@adaw2d3222]

I was thinking of this as well.

[@RyTrapp0]

This would conceivably explain the lack of credentials on the rifle too - it was all about slapping functional firearms together as quickly as possible

[@eriock80]

@Muzzle Flash it's not speculation anymore, I checked the 'samain system and can confirm it was first used during late 1870

[@eriock80]

@Muzzle Flash The Samain patent dates back to october 10 1870. The cartridge used was a Gevelot mle. 1867. I can't find any picture but it's definitly not metallic (here's what a contemporary chassepot cartridge looks like : i.servimg.com/u/f34/15/74/65/02/sarie_10.jpg). The chap mentions around 80 000 built but i found 60 000 (fr.1001mags.com/parution/gazette-des-armes/numero-230-fevrier-1993/page-36-37-texte-integral). Many small workshops were for sure making the conversions and I guess the emergency made it hard to track precisely.

[@addisme7561]

Really a quite attractive piece of fire arms history, fascinated to see what the cartridge would have looked like.

[@bobjones5166]

As someone who owned and hunted with a rifle with the bolt that sticks straight out like that, I can say it is a pain in the back side how often it gets popped open. I finally had the bolt handle cut off and welded back on a a more friendly angle. Yes I was young and dumb. It was a 6.5x55 rifle from 1913, with all matching serial numbers, that I destroyed. But I hunt with it to this day. :)

[@Wimmig43at339]

Very cool. As always thanks for sharing with us!

[@jerryjohnsonii4181]

I like the sights on it. Very Cool Conversion bolt action. Very Cool muzzle loader Ian.

[@noah_hill]

very neat! these early conversions have always been my thing

[@Sturgeonmeister]

I’m always amazed at the ability of machine, even hand tooling at those times.

[@paulmanson253]

Ian,Ian. If you do read this,one previous comment tweaked a memory. The Three Musketeers,1973,then the Four Musketeers. Two wonderful movies that are well made and a joy to watch. Raquel Welch,Oliver Reed, Michael York,Spike Milligan and others made these pieces wonderful. If possible,acquire the rifle and see if you can clothe yourself as a King's Musketeer,circa Louis XIII. You do have a D'Artagnon beard etc. Proper hat lots of white lace,a duelling sword,appropriate gloves,you would I think have a great time outfitting yourself. No need for a horse,just a sweeping bow like 1930s movies displayed. The costuming alone makes watching these two movies worthwhile. If you have not seen them before,enjoy. Eh bien, MonSieur,vous avé resté avec les spirits of place of the likes of Milady de Winter. Faye Dunaway herself. What fun. Hope you do this. Would be wonderful.

[@ant4812]

Still in cal .69 and it's a metallic cartridge conversion? What a mad thing!

[@davidgreen40]

The Great Arizonan Tribe eschews the idiocy of Daylight Savings Time.

[@KnightlyFYI]

Mustached man caresses a mature French lady.

[@General.Longstreet]

Love these old clunkers. Fascinating how they went about converting old muskets to breech loaders. Every country seemed to have its own system.

[@user-YuHaoHuang]

if some ever purchased this note that this will be the coolest hunting rifle when going with friends provided that one's actually brave enough to shoot it

[@charleshaynes815]

Looks well made.

[@Rumblestrip]

That's really cool. Thanks Ian

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian ,

[@afnDavid]

Gosh! What a large firing pin you have! All the better to strike your primer ;)

[@FiendTheKing]

Quite an attractive rifle, especially for a conversion.

[@doraran2138]

Any idea of cartridge designation or what it looked like, as well as was this unique to this conversion type or possibly a 'standard' for other similar conversions. Short raceway, indicting short cartridge with obvious limited pressures. This is an interesting niche. One often thinks of the Snider or Trabatierre [sp?], but those were of original percussion rifles. Conversion from an originally flint rifle is quite distinctive.

[@ultramagnus4374]

Dor Aran probably converted from a flintlock, to a percussion to a bolt action

[@TheMysticalBadger]

I know of an example converted from a US rifled musket, chambered in .58 Berdan.

[@01glenn0101]

nice one ian

[@tomalexander4327]

Welcome to the French rifle channel :P

[@Poopooslinger]

There's more German or Italian guns in the channel...

[@iLLeag7e]

I'm a fan of Inuit firearms myself...

[@RealMrSmit]

in the welcome video he clearly says french rifles are his personal favorite.

[@niksarass]

He makes rifle vids from all over the world why some people are hating?

[@tomalexander4327]

@@iLLeag7e me too!

[@adriancornwell4389]

I’m guessing the wheel locking thing is for marching. Carrying the rifle on your left shoulder will keep it from bumping into the body or the right shoulder bumping the person marching next to you.

[@dudesqr]

Could also be for a "snap" reload for sentries or possibly a Calvary carbine idea?

[@b.k.3280]

Beautiful piece!

[@AThreeDogNight]

Ian you guessed it right, the wheel, you're good.

[@shawnr771]

Nice conversion. That looks like it was done professionally. Very nice clean lines. I would want this rifle but I do not collect weapons I can not shoot. Getting ammo made might well be impossible or expensive.

[@notrequired602]

Day 55: The Chassepots and Gras haven't noticed I'm an 1822 Rifle.

[@mrsaturdaynightspecial3055]

Now that's funny. I just spewed my Cheerios.

[@theshootingbench9116]

Entertaining and learned as always

[@ACE1918]

3:57 That could be there as a safety measure that helps ensure that the bolt doesn't completely open by accident on firing. Its a problem I've noticed with the smooth action on some SMLEs.

[@Petrus1904]

Pretty cool conversion, looking at the quality of the rifle, I wouldnt exclude the possibility it is converted after 1880s. but maybe just not for military purpose, but just a handy backyard gunsmith converting his old muzzle loader to a breach loader.

[@beaker126]

Leaving aside the non-safety safety catch, that's actually a pretty slick design.

[@junichiroyamashita]

I saw a tanegashima matchlock converted like this

[@leoashrae4199]

I had something similar to this several years ago. Mine was a shotgun conversion in 28-gauge. Mine was also very well made and shot quite well (but didn't handle worth a hoot... too long). Wonder if this was actually a shotgun conversion using a proprietary all-brass hull?

[@turbogerbil2935]

Beaten to the punch by The Chap. It appears to be a Samain conversion. Several receiver variations, but the loose extractor running in a slot is typical.

[@frankmcgarry3155]

The notch that locks the bolt handle looks like it’s supposed to close off the gap on the bolt to keep dirt out.

[@nicklogan2]

Great video! I wonder if the wheel lock was originally spring loaded to keep it from flopping about, but got lost through time.

[@TheOdst219]

Ian will probaly buy this when auction rolls around.

[@robertsmith4681]

when it comes to the safety tab thing, maybe it shortens the firing pin protrusion by a hair ... ?

[@bakaneko8812]

Most likely. That threaded piece in firing pin assembly should stay togheter with bolt and cam firing pin backwards, when bolt is rotated open. That way it also acts as safety. Unfortunately it looks that thread was probaply worn out slightly, and allowed that middle piece to rotate little too far and deep, and rendering whole mechanism inoperative.

[@mysss29]

Interesting hypothesis. Another comment points out that the Chassepot works similarly when fired with the bolt at a 45 degree angle instead of fully locked, so that would make a lot of sense (especially since it looks so much like a safety to everyone).

[@robertsmith4681]

@@mysss29 Without having seen the thing apart, I would see how the tab could internally interfere with the firing pin, preventing full travel and thus ignition of a primer, while appearing to allow the cocking piece to snap forward normally when the trigger is pulled.

[@duachim]

Sooo I guess we know what Ian wants to add to his collection :p I hope he dose

[@Jesses001]

Na if he makes a video, he does not plan on adding it to his collection. If he wants something, he makes sure NOT to make a video because he wants no one to know about it, haha...he mentioned that in a Q&A once.

[@ssm726]

The French M1822 dosn't have brass-parts

[@daddanet74]

In european countries the huntsman and the poachers had gun fights. The feature in the gun is preventing accidental opening when you go through the bushes. So the gun is always ready to engage on a poacher. What do you think? Is it for this kind of scenario?

[@Jesses001]

Looks like a rather effective system. Simple too....though not really simple enough for a military conversion rather then just new rifles.

[@rogerhwerner6997]

I'm sure Ian will know about this.... after the Austro-Prussian Ear of 1966, the French army scrambled quickly to arm its men with breechloading, bolt action rifles so I'd bet the rifle discussed wsy probably converted after was 1866 but before the adoption of the Chessepot in 1870 I think.

[@reubensteel4632]

Just wondering if you had any access to or plans to look at any of the unusual Australian developments like the Lithgow small arms factory F1 or the McCrudden light machine rifle to name but a few.

[@nickfesta3180]

This is futuristic

[@slateramalgamated7620]

These sorts of things remind me to sign anything I make. Even if I'm a nobody, I know how frustrating it is to find unattributable things

[@calvingreene90]

It is possible that the conversion was done later by a machinist modifying his grandfather's old rifle for personal use.

[@ИванИвановичИванов-з9ъ]

Защелка на рукояти затвора нужна для того, чтобы затвор самостоятельно не открывался во время военных походов и перемещения солдата. Это не предохранитель, это своеобразная защита от грязи. The latch on the handle of the bolt is needed so that the bolt does not open itself during military campaigns and when a soldier moves. This is not a fuse, it is a kind of protection from dirt.

[@lucidnonsense942]

If you engage the notch, without first rotating the bolt all the way down, doesn't that stop the gun getting cocked?

[@mysss29]

Doesn't that also prevent the bolt from closing?

[@dustyak79]

Ive got a bannerman conversion I think was made off the French musket that was converted to 12 gauge. Find one do a video on that,

[@lucaspnst4209]

hello ! is there any chance we'll see you again interviewing H.Canaple again ? it was full of knowledge i loved it as all your vids. Thank you

[@RalphReagan]

I love this rifle 17mm!

[@mouse454]

pictures of chambers with illumination would be appreciated

[@marshall104]

So when are you going to show of your Berchat Chauthier that mark made for you?

[@exactinmidget92]

It could be a modern conversion that dave did in his garage 10 years ago. Could explain the lack of stamps.

[@thomas316]

He's got a mystery French rifle. Settle in folks as this'll be a long chat...😅

[@clarkenochs7070]

Maybe the bolt notch was to prop it on its side like you had the gun during disassembly

[@beaucrawford538]

The rifle got a new receiver and barrel, so what's original? it seems like the only thing that remained from the original build is the stock

[@DD-uv6rp]

Perhaps wheel lock held bolt closed during calvary riding?

[@lenweshunkasa5342]

je suis français et j'aime tes vidéos (and yes I wrote it in french because it is more funny )

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Very...IN-TER--REST-ING...Thanks so much...!

[@minuteman4199]

Was this a metallic cartridge or a paper cartridge? Which ever type it was, it looks looks it was very short.

[@Romantik-y9p]

Considering that it it has an extractor/ejector, it surely uses metallic one

[@minuteman4199]

@@Romantik-y9p You're right, I didn't think of that. It looks like the cartridge is very short compared to other early metallic cartridges.

[@1885win]

Looks more like 1852

[@Jacob-xi4fi]

You know Ian already has a chunk of change set aside to buy this thing.

[@balancedfordaylight1]

that rifle looks like Its in great condition, also It looks like it could still be fired if you could somehow get ammo for that thing

[@matthewspencer5086]

No danger of light strikes, then -and the lock-time might be better than some modern guns.

[@Ryuko-T72]

I bet hes gonna try and get it at the auction

[@myramadd6651]

Could this have been some military trials or experimental conversion? The French liked to use old rifles for that, if my memory serves.

[@IEraiderfan]

Great video thanks for sharing.👍👍👍

[@clancywoodard310]

Do you think it could be like some sort of conversion for hunting?

[@TheGophernutzz]

Could it just be someone's prototype bolt action rifle? Bought the thing cheap just for the stock and barrel?

[@Noobish_Camper55]

Early morning upload

[@frankwrogg2515]

12 guage should work nicely in it.

[@Crota0100]

Nice :)

[@Zretgul_timerunner]

Huh clever those French also ian i think theat little "lock" is some form of primitive dustcover

[@elbenardo2715]

Anyone have any ideas on that wheel?

[@AThreeDogNight]

Yes, Yes Or I mean a WEE WEE. He had it right, just from guessing, Ian is good.

[@exploatores]

It might be a way to stop the cartidge from falling out if it opens by accident when the user is moving and have it slinged on the back.

[@larsbkurin1740]

A spring behind the wheel make it a safty fore the handel? An auto safty fore the breech. Sorry for bad spelling. Swede...

[@AThreeDogNight]

@@exploatores, I thought of during hunting & possibly war from bumping & snagging on things & then you can still shoot it when positioned.

[@AThreeDogNight]

@@larsbkurin1740, Correct, I think.

[@Airforce1Gunny]

Looks like Ian wants to bid on something.

[@julianschutz8203]

Is the stamp not 1852?

[@b.griffin317]

3:05 1852?

[@doctoreff1]

Neat!

[@metalman6708]

Not a gun question per say but I thought that the "lucky roaster" symbol was a Portuguese one and not a french one?

[@henningstermark9241]

I´m a little confused the original M1822 was a musket not a rifle - this conversion has a rifled barrel ?

[@jodc2760]

The M1822 was a flintlock .69 caliber smoothbore musket. After 1841, large Numbers were converted to percussion .71 caliber smoobore muskets (renamed M1822T). After 1857 Large Numbers of M1822T were rifled for a .70 minié ball (renamed M1822TBis). In 1870-1871 some (nobody knows how much) were converted by private gunsmiths to breechlock (the so called M1867 Tabatière).

[@jodc2760]

The first official rifled musket was the M1793 flintlock carbine used only by elite troops. In 1837 a new percussion rifled carbine (different from the M1793) was adopted for elite troops. Then variations of the M1837 rifle were produced until 1859. It was only in 1857 that the French Army switched from smothbore musket to minié rifles muskets for the whole Army. An by 1867 the Chassepot needle rifle was chosen to replace all variations of Minié types muskets.

[@janakaev_anuar81]

Винтовка 1822 года???

[@Rebel635csi]

Why the hell did I just see a commercial prior to the video starting?

[@jonmeray713]

Huh backyard ballistics

[@randywatson8347]

Paris -> pah-ri

[@УвеНиттель]

Под дробовик переделали? У нас Берданки под охотничьи ружья переделывали

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

Уве Ниттель English only please

[@Gooberslot]

Would such an old gun really be using metric measurements?

[@nickduf]

The French government officially introduced the metric system in 1795

[@criffermaclennan]

And lo gun jesus did praise the works of the unknown French monsieur, saying unto the disciples that it was indeed good work...but gun jesus did warn that ammo for this good work would be like finding hens teeth...praise be the word of gun jesus... Amen

[@tyvernoverlord5363]

We need a gospel according to Ian if we’re gonna start doing this...

[@ron827]

Very cool but I question the wisdom of dry firing such an old rifle.

[@brittakriep2938]

In the swiss canton Neuenburg/Neufchatel(?) there was the ,Neuenburger Gendarmeriegewehr' wich used 18mm cartridges. I am a man, only using my girlfriends account.

[@majormassenspektrometer]

Ask her if she can update her account with some interesting photos. Thanks.

[@stephenb2276]

What's up with the early morning uploads?

[@cyanidic3673]

LightninBoltzaGlowin its 5 am and i should be asleep but gun jesus vids take priority to sleep