Forgotten Weapons Discussion: French Arms Being Backwards And Forwards-Looking At The Same Time

[@Herintruththelies]

"War were declared". All of our favorite historical firearms people are friends.

[@MrPhil360]

Woah, don't forget C&R

[@BlokeontheRange]

We're all friends with them too :)

[@murunbuchstanzangur]

and, it would seem, futurama fans.

[@dave_h_8742]

Lloyd too ?

[@jpb3305]

Historical fire arms youtubers is a very small club.

[@eliwatson7936]

One of the few countries that bought the L85 was Jamaica, bringing a whole new meaning to the phrase “we be jammin’”

[@phinehasjacob9122]

Well done well done

[@rodrigodepierola]

There needs to be T-shirt with that idea

[@jediknight1294]

The trials rifle was great, the a3 is great as was the A2 but much like the M14 and for the same reasons the original issue was dogshit.

[@tasjan9190]

​@@jediknight1294Negative, I believe you meant to say "M16" not "M14"? No they had a similar introduction for very different reasons, the M16 was intentionally sabotaged by the US Ordinance Corps as many of the people there had money heavily invested in the continued production and issuing of the M14, they did not appreciate the decision as to what weapon was going to be issued being decided by a politician rather than themselves who had hopes of lining their own pockets with the M14's continued service so they purposely used the wrong gun powder with the intended ammunition the weapon was designed for, along with not chrome lining the barrel or bore and chamber, and they issued the M16 WITHOUT cleaning kits. The design overall was superb. Now the L85 series main issue was the total lack of quality control in the assembling of the weapon and the components and materials used in it's construction, thus the L85 was just junk straight out of the gate due to incompetence rather than treasonous sabotage. Which one's worse I don't know. What I know is that it cost lives on both sides of the pond and that's infuriating to say the least friend.

[@detritus23]

“The neighbor is being awkward again...”. Well understated.

[@arnoldwardenaar127]

And one of the funniest lines ever

[@23GreyFox]

Understandable, after France was awkward for centuries.

[@catfish552]

"The Bloke, the Chap, and Ian? How have I not seen this?! ... Oh, it's brand new."

[@benholroyd5221]

If you're using official titles it's The Bloke, The Chap and Gun Jesus.

[@Legitcar117]

Throw othais in for good measure!

[@maddthomas]

An American, a Englishman and a Frenchmen walk into a bar...

[@guspeniche]

What’s a bar?

[@maddthomas]

@@guspeniche ....there are alot of jokes in the English language that start that way, so many that that phrase itself has become a meme. A "bar" its equivalent in British English is a "pub", or a place to go with or meet new friends, and you buy and consume alcoholic beverages. You don't know till you ask.

[@davidbrennan660]

The American mentions Rimlock...... .

[@Xerdoz]

@@maddthomas Probably meant. "What the hell is this bar thing you talk about? Haven't been to one since the dark ages began..."

[@nirfz]

I am neither an american, englishman or frenchman but ran into a bar once.🤓 A wooden one, and it left a pretty big dimple in my steel helmet. 🤕

[@genericpersonx333]

I can appreciate the decision to avoid metal casings for the Chassepot, because the world really was not quite ready for it even if it was the last major rifle to depend on them. G. Wawro's book on the Franco-Prussian War notes that even with the Chassepot using paper ammunition, supplying ammo for breechloading rifles truly strained even the enormous industry of France. A single division of the French army, a force of maybe 5,000 rifles, fired off over 300,000 rounds in a single action lasting only a couple hours. That 300,000+ rounds was pretty much the entire production of ammunition France could make in a day, and several other divisions had expended similar amounts. In practical terms, a single medium battle required stockpiling pretty much every bullet made for a number of weeks, and of course the shooting didn't stop completely between battles. With experience like that, one can see the general reluctance to adopt magazine weapons, machineguns, and every other innovation designed to send more, and more expensive, bullets away in a shorter space of time.

[@Clangokkuner]

Pretty much what I thought when I saw those incredibly complex bullets being fired off in WW2, those fuzed aircraft ammo seemed like an absurd waste of money and resources to be sprayed on a single man flying an intricate piece of machine.

[@genericpersonx333]

@@Clangokkuner For sure, but considering how expensive it was to replace a ship one of those crazy flying machines could sink, suddenly sending thousands of dollars of shells at that one one plane is not so bad a trade off. Really makes one appreciate just how much money we spend on violent arguments between nations. I am inclined to require Heads of State to arm-wrestle, best two out of three, to solve wars in future. Certainly would be cheaper!

[@myparceltape1169]

@@genericpersonx333 Yes, definitely! Kennedy versus Khrushchev would have been good.

[@myparceltape1169]

As I walk around the house listening to you every so often you come up with references to Metallurgy or the lack of knowledge about parts. Would it be possible for you to get one to help you reconstruct / reverse engineer the parts needed for these ancient machines.

[@geofftimm2291]

@@Clangokkuner They weren't shooting at a single man in a flying machine, they were preventing him from destroying an enormously expensive ship and killing thousands of good guys. Geoff Who was taught to think in terms of systems.

[@kennethbong9384]

Really great. Finally all three of you guys together. I sat through the whole one and a half hours. Why not a super real marathon Q & A session with you 3 with Othias and Rob

[@geofftimm2291]

The M-60 GPMG wasn't a bad design. However, the receiver was an expendable item, but the US Army, accustomed to Browning Machinegun designs, which have an estimated life measured in millennia didn't replace them. Geoff Who was a Small Arms Specialist 45B20 in the 1970s.

[@jic1]

The Danish adopted the M60E6 in 2014 replacing the MG3 (one of the first names that comes up in every 'what the US should have adopted instead of the M60' discussion), so the design must have merits. What you said about the main issue behind their poor reputation being them getting thrashed to shit from overuse makes a lot of sense, and I think Ian said something similar in his video on the M60. That, and a general tendency to dump on American military small arms (from Americans as much as anybody), especially guns from the Vietnam era.

[@PegasusTests]

I always had the feeling that the M60 was not a case of being really bad its just that most other machine guns are just better.

[@michaelguerin56]

Our Air Force, the RNZAF did not replace their M60s with FN MAGs until early this century, if I recall clearly. Also, Tony Howell (Lt Col retired and first CO of NZSAS Group) talks positively about the M60 in his book Jungle Green Shadows, which will be rereleased on the 2021 anniversary of Long Tan. Machine gun failures are mentioned in the account of an intense defensive action where his platoon of V2 company took the brunt of the enemy attack but that would have been an early iteration and I would expect that Vietnam combat experience resulted in a few improvements to the gun. Tony is a nice guy and doesn’t waste time telling bullshit so it does appear that there was some sort of disconnect in US ArmyNavy Ordnance circles, not the first time and probably not the last, i.e. the Army wasting money trying to develop a 58 calibre 155mm gun instead of going for 52 calibre; and the Navy developing super expensive 155mm shells for the Zumwalt class 155mm guns instead of buying standard and rocket-assisted ‘off the shelf’ projectiles. Why maintain current systems to keep them working properly when you can waste billions on silly projects? 🙂

[@jic1]

@@michaelguerin56 I believe the British RAF still use M60s on their Chinooks. I'm not sure if the gun is particularly well-suited to air force use or if it simply came as a package with the helicopters, but if it was causing them any real problems they could have replaced them with some of the tons of FN MAGs they must have in inventory.

[@CTXSLPR]

Bloke's stastical treatment of why group size is a myth and engineering explanations of systems is what brought me to Ian actually. Ian then sent me to Mark Novak back when Anvil was part of C&Rsenal proper with the French Rolling Block which got me to Beardy which sent me to the Mustached One.

[@Mixu.]

Finland certainly seems to like being the host of international meetings

[@Leander_]

Thank you so much for the time stamps and the excellent moderation, Bloke.

[@BlokeontheRange]

Thanks to Patrons for the timestamps!

[@Leander_]

@@BlokeontheRange Fair enough, thanks Patrons! :P

[@CrackzTV]

When I saw them all with beers, I knew this was going to be a fantastic video

[@Tamlinsgrove]

Two Q&As with Ian, Bloke and Chap in one day?! How you spoil us 😊❤️

[@marcppparis]

I was so thrilled. I missed out on the Kickstarter but Ian‘a shipper found a box or two of blue Chassepot to Famas so I snagged a copy. Looking at it now.

[@michaelguerin56]

Got one tacked on to my British bull pup order! Should be a great read. 🙂

[@norbertalbisser9052]

Ist deutsch eine. Fremdsprache ich deutscher und kein tommie

[@nicholas_scott]

Great chemistry. Great topic

[@michelguevara151]

three of my favourite youtubers in one place? talking about my insane country's firearms history? I'll get a beverage and clear my appointments :-)

[@HarryP457]

I could happily listen to these three guys for hours. So entertaining and informative. Thanks folks.

[@88porpoise]

I did listen to them four hours today, 2.5 hours.

[@jh8146]

I was going to say one of your best videos ever but that doesn't do it justice at all. Probably the best video on this subject in existence anywhere in the world. Fascinating and very well done.

[@gunmonkey1185]

3 of my favorite YTbers in one place. Talking about French firearms history from Lebel onward. Way too early for Christmas.

[@easyfiveOsink]

I'm still here with my beer in front of the screen and I'm pretending I'm sitting in that room while this cool conversation is going on.............................

[@Simon_Nonymous]

I feel nice and at home, drinking Scotch single malt and stroking my beard. It must be a thing!

[@gunnercooper9405]

I went through usmc boot camp back in 2019 And when I went through the corps was still teaching us to not use our acog during enemy engagements, only during long distance and range shooting were we supposed to use it. They taught us to just hold the gun centered and point n shoot

[@kencampbell1750]

This is essentially the question I was going to ask on Ian's Q & A but missed the post calling for Q's. Extremely pleased that you three had this convo and shared it as this is such a more thorough answer than I could have wished for.

[@iamAwesomo1994]

Thanks I enjoyed the video in which Chap explains the FAMAS fire control group and learned a lot as well as this one. Great models, thanks for taking the time.

[@TerryDowne]

"War were declared..." What a great Otahis hommage.

[@matthewmudgett7413]

I think it's funny that in this subculture that's a reference to a gun youtuber and not, y'know- a futurama reference.

[@Gunner40Five]

Chap is French? I knew he speaks French, but I always assumed he was British like Bloke. You learn something new every day I suppose. Excellent video as always gents. Keep up the good work.

[@jic1]

I think he said he was raised in England from a young age.

[@Gunner40Five]

@@jic1That's what I assumed. Thanks for the info.

[@keanur6541]

Wow we were spoiled today on both channels. Love this conversation and q&a style vids. Mike and chap you two should absolutely do more "conversation/q&a" style videos.

[@damiangrouse4564]

One of your best Bloke

[@skillest231]

Funnily enough, the only SIG 550 type rifle that's legal in Canada is the FAMAE, through a loophole in legislation! Therefore there have been many semi-auto FAMAE imported.

[@Intelwinsbigly]

Why does Canada even fucking bother? The US is right next door.

[@Sman7290]

@@Intelwinsbigly The US has its own set of fully stupid and oppressive import laws.

[@RLRSwanson]

So in essence whatever went on in the French small arms design committees and whatnot during every period is accurately depicted in the Top Gear History of Peugeot board room re-enactment skits.

[@BlokeontheRange]

There are certain parallels, indeed! French corporate culture is French corporate culture, after all! :D

[@dariuszrutkowski420]

Oui, oui. Wow!

[@geofftimm2291]

Talk about a double inside joke! Geoff Who applauds you Sir!

[@veryoldnavy2186]

Amen, Amen. I was overjoyed to hear that someone else/everyone else has trouble loading a MAS 49/56 magazine from stripper clips. I can't tell you how much time I have spent fiddling around with that system, trying to get it to load properly. I've tried new mags, new mag springs, new stripper clips, etc. Just when I am ready to give up, one stripper will load as cleanly and as smoothly as silk. Then I spend the rest of the range period cursing trying to get another to feed at all. I feel better.....It's not just me. By the way...."War were Declared?" Othias would be so proud.

[@WarmasterDeath]

aha! scopes on a bren were a thing, but only twice! /smartarse humor very enjoyable!! good to have three favorites sit down for a good chat!

[@edm240b9]

We need more of this. Even if it’s just a zoom call, we need more of you guys talking about the history of firearms design for one nation over drinks.

[@demos113]

Very informative and a nice collab. :-)

[@Kinkampoiana]

Discussion très instructive entre trois passionnés bien sympathiques. Merci à vous les gars !

[@snailfarmer]

"Wow, an hour and a half, I'll just watch a bit of it first..." Ended up watching it all in one binge 😁

[@leonardwei3914]

1:22:20 Thank you for pointing out the false "crap where it eats" is only in the AR-15. I have frequently pointed out any blowback or roller delayed does basically the same thing.

[@dave_h_8742]

Well that went quickly, very enjoyable lots of info and myths busted.

[@michaelguerin56]

Another thing to bear in mind about pistol bullet diameter is that, prior to the widespread use of penicillin, the risk of serious infection leading to death, from any bullet wound , especially if the bullet carried fabric into the wound, was relatively high unless the victim received prompt medical treatment. A single wound caused by a bullet from a .22 long rifle pistol or a .32 ACP police pistol could be lethal. Context is important. The next time you see some nonsense about truck and bus makers being too slow to adopt pneumatic tyres, keep in mind that, in a time of widespread horse-drawn transport, there were plenty of horse shoe nails being left on roads.

[@SlavicCelery]

HK's handgun is called an offensive handgun for more than one reason.

[@rickchapman3707]

whatched to the end love the banter !!

[@marcppparis]

I’m just waiting for the What Would Chauchat Do project

[@RonJeremy514]

WWMASD project

[@conductorcammon]

This genuinely made me LoL! 😆

[@kainhall]

5:18 one thing i found absolutely FASCINATING..... back when they were reenacting the "Lewis and Clark" journey (like, period correct everything.... from the cloths to the camp fires to the boats.... and did the WHOLE trip EXACTLY the way Lewis and Clark did.... this was in like 2008 IIRC) . anyway.... L and C were given hallow lead "cylinders"..... the idea was... it held enough powder to shoot all the lead . so you would remove the cork and wax seal...... fill up everyone's powder flask.... and then sit around the camp fire and cast your bullets when you were done.... the only thing you had left was the cork.... (which was used as fire starter) . even as a child.... ~13 years old (i had been shooting for ~4 years..... and hunting deer for 1 year at this point.... so i knew a BIT about shooting history) i knew that that was a REALLY good idea . its sealed from water and weather their is no waste and its perfectly weighed and measured so you can shoot all the lead with the powder stored inside the lead "cylinder". . like.... that is REALLY smart . muzzle loaders (and paper cartridge guns) were case-less ammo..... LONG!! before that idea was even a thing but now your "ammo crates" are also "crate-less" . again.... ZERO waste . once everyone shot up their powder and lead.... you would simply pop the cork on another "cylinder" again... fill up everyones powder horn/flask and...again...sit around the camp fire, before bed, and cast your bullets . . it seems like a simple idea.... but being able to sit down and figure out that you need 100 grains of black to fire each 68 cal round ball and then making a "cylinder" that has enough lead and powder for ~100 shots.... THATS REALLY SMART!!! . IIRC.... they were 9 or 10 inches tall, and about 5 inches in diameter.... and the lead was 1 to 1.5 inch thick.... all around, top and bottom . . i know i wrote a book on this.... but..... again.... this is a REALLY DAMN smart idea!

[@davidgcalderone]

Always enjoy this type of content

[@karenbell8847]

Brilliant video love seeing the three of you together

[@matthaught4707]

This is the kind of weaponized nerdery that appeals to me.

[@Thisisahandle701]

Nerdified weaponry*

[@alexandervatter1436]

Had the "pleasure" AA52 in Afghanistan from an VBL (scout car) felt very sorry the French boys. MG42/MG3 still rules 😆😆😆

[@thebotrchap]

It’s a brutal bitch to be sure 😈

[@piritskenyer]

I will always love the PKM above all else 😅

[@alexandervatter1436]

@@piritskenyer Also Ian's favorite I think! For me, it will always be the MG3 but as a German, I am not as objective her. If you haveto carry It on food for days on end, the RPK is hard to beat.

[@thebotrchap]

@@piritskenyer Ooooh yes. Fantastic mg.

[@dariuszrutkowski420]

One of the fwe things good about communism in Poland, We have PKM's and now Ukm 2000's (PKM in 7.62 NATO). It would be nice if it fed from the opposite side thn it does but (Kalashnikov had to be diferent)

[@vandoo66]

One of my first « hands on » experience with the MAT was with an Ancien of the 11eme Choc. He NEVER shouldered it.

[@Manuel-j3q]

Never tell a - man his salary - woman her age - Ian to talk about French weapons

[@dunbar555]

this video was great to listen to ! Cheers from Switzerland

[@AntonyThorburn]

Ian is cool, support them all if you can.

[@jean-pascalesparceil9008]

Actually, the urgent operational requirement for a 5.56 assault rifle happened in Lebanon with the participation of one battalion in the UNIFIL (march 1978). In confrontations with fedayeen, Colonel Savan was seriously wounded. All other battalions in the UNIFIL, including ones from third countries had more modern light weapons than the French paratroopers of the 3ème RPIMa (one of the very few all volunteers units).

[@dondovahkiin7899]

I feel like Im hanging around with the cool guys. Thank you. Please do a podcast.

[@Marlanson]

Great discussion!

[@soldatdemarine4801]

Bonjour 🙂 Merci beaucoup à vous 3 pour cette vidéo. Cordialement.

[@bakaneko113]

This is a great video. Informative and deeply interesting.

[@mgreen7063]

Way better than Ian's Q and A, Chap seemed way more comfortable, maybe because the questions were in his wheelhouse. Ian seems comfortable here, C&Arsenal, In Range or Chieftain's Hatch. Great talk. And Bloke is a good questioner, although venturing afield with these two is ok too.

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

I find the whole HK416 situation in France utterly ridiculous. The French army alone 120000 personal plus another 30000 reservists, with about another 100000 personal in other branches. To step nearly a quarter million personal the French army bought a grand total of 117000 rifles. That barely enough to equip the army as is let alone deal with any future scenarios such as expansion of the military or just the usual attrition of lost and broken rifles from training and combat deployments. Even Canada didn’t make that stupid of an error. And let’s not even get started on the fact the French are relying on the Germans to make their service rifle for them.

[@Sman7290]

We don't see a while lot of replacement barrels for the AA-52...because it jams so much that it never gets hot enough to have to swap it out.

[@geofftimm2291]

French humor does not translate. Geoff Who doesn't care much for US humor now days either.

[@dther6314]

@Chap About the full auto switch of the FAMAS, the gun was to be used in 3 shots burst, and burst and rafale are in the same position.-you change the burst under the stock So i think it's normal to have the burst/rafale setting put for right handed guys.(since they don't use the switch for rafale but 3 shot burst) tyhat what they told be when i did my service, the Rafale is meant to be used with 3 shot burst. (i only did shot it in semi-auto)

[@thebotrchap]

My point is that I assume the default you want when flicking off the safety is semi auto. If a rightie picks up the gun, the right hand and fingers entering the trigger guard will naturally tend to push the safety left to the burst/full position. It takes extra effort for a rightie to set to semi auto. Of course if the doctrine is to go to burst/full then it makes sense.

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

We accurately get FAMAE 540/542 in Canada, in either 5.56 & 7.62. Great shooting and reliable rifles, but kinda ridiculously expensive for what it is.

[@maewinchester2030]

I know what I'm watching with my morning coffee today.

[@johnhans2929]

I am a proud supporter of both channels.

[@floydkeimiii303]

Hearing the positive words said about then Hotchkiss 1914, I decided to bid on the 1914 at the local auction rather than the mg08/15 and manger to win! I can’t wait to get my stamp back.

[@keithallardice6139]

Love this ... ate it all up - gimme more lol

[@666Blaine]

For any Maxim gun owners out there... old Ford flat-head engines used to use asbestos rope seals. Now they use graphite impregnated braided teflon. It also seems that you could see what the model steam engine guys use to replace their seals.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Would be cool is someome would make some modern replacement out of like silicone or something. Maybe neoprene or some kind of rubber. Idk how it has to be installed but a lip seal would be sweet if it was possible.

[@jic1]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what is meant by 'asbestos twine/yarn/rope' (which is entirely possible), some sort of fiberglass material would seem an obvious replacement. Nomex or a similar aramid would seem to have potential, too.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

@@jic1 sure. But it's generally understood these days that the technique of sealing moving parts with rope style seals is just inferior. That's why it hasn't been used in engines for example for a very long time.

[@jic1]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 True, but designing and producing a completely new seal type from scratch would be a much more difficult and expensive task than using an off-the-shelf product, and many collectors would want a seal type that was as close to the original as possible, despite limitations.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

@@jic1 there's potentially a seal for an automotive application that may be suitable or maybe be modified... That's why I was also talking about just materials that might be suitable in a similar shape like the rope that was used, like an O-ring

[@charles_wipman]

I'd said this on the Ian's channel, but i'll like to see a croatian VHS next to an aussie F88, a french FAMAS F1 and F2 and a british L85A3.

[@charles_wipman]

@@amazed2341 Yeah, i'd forget the SAR-21; you're right.

[@geofftimm2291]

Short of a CIA Weapons laboratory, where would you find them all together? Geoff Who is curious.

[@edm240b9]

Actually, regarding AR15s with rifle grenades, I saw footage of a Philippino guerilla with an M16A1 fitted with a rifle grenade and he does end up firing it.

[@jameswarner8038]

theres some crazy high frequency ringing going on in this vid

[@BlokeontheRange]

Huh. I didn't hear anything when editing, and I don't hear anything now...

[@jameswarner8038]

@@BlokeontheRange with headphones, pause and unpause quickly and you will hear it

[@aaronclair4489]

@@BlokeontheRange I hear the high pitched tone at 1:28:15, for example. For most of the video I didn't notice it.

[@GIR9595]

It might be one of those how old you are sort of things it's up in that CRT TV register, glad i'm not the only one.

[@jameswarner8038]

@@GIR9595 yes its mosquito level, not a big deal really

[@Davinator11]

Legends :)

[@suchness18]

Anyone else getting a high pitch audio whine ?

[@jerryjuutalainen1783]

Honestly what i found out with an HK USP is that it makes one hell of a target pistol (especially if you prefer a bigger grip and a crisp trigger).

[@SafetyProMalta]

How excellent this was to listen too.

[@luisnunes2010]

I was right, the AA 52 is a french gun not even Ian can like!

[@michelguevara151]

hahahaha in french XD

[@Thisisahandle701]

@@michelguevara151 Hon Hon Hon *

[@jesseterrell9354]

There is a high pitched sound that is killing me in this video

[@soonersmith4179]

Good, it’s not just my phone

[@markwalshopoulos]

How old are you? Might be an age thing

[@jesseterrell9354]

@@markwalshopoulos old

[@BlokeontheRange]

I've had quite a few people say this, but I can't hear it. Didn't hear it in editing, nor when replaying the vid now.

[@ryanrhude3256]

I hear it too. Very loud with headphones

[@MandoWookie]

Just realized the only good thing about those magazine cut offs was for keeping a reserve of regular ammo, while you single loading the blanks for grenade launching. The Lebel was ironically the perfect system for that.

[@jic1]

While I don't claim to be an expert in the use of rifle grenades, to the best of my knowledge nobody actually did that. Other than with the grenade designs that were specifically designed for use with live ammunition, every doctrine on the use of rifle grenades that I know of was that you never have live rounds in your rifle *at all* when firing rifle grenades. In most cases, there was a designated grenadier whose rifle was used *only* for grenades, and carried a pistol or submachine gun for self-defense.

[@ludovicbertrand8296]

Viven Bessières grenades where shot using ball ammunition and not blanks. The grenade had a central hole letting the ball pass through years before FN came with the passthru concept. The ball passage was even used to set the fuse on.

[@MandoWookie]

@@ludovicbertrand8296 Cool! Didnt know that.

[@kaisercreb]

was hoping the AC-556 would have got mentioned

[@Moredread25]

I hope someday we get Chap and Karl talking about blackpower things.

[@KI.765]

Did the French have any steel cased 5.56 ammo yet when they briefly used the 540?

[@thebotrchap]

They might have had some but I doubt they used it in the 540s

[@KI.765]

@@thebotrchap thank you.

[@aerotorc]

I feel like Ian needs to visit The Chap for a Forgotten Weapons special...

[@thebotrchap]

He has an open invitation

[@baconx4]

I was late to the French game. My MAS 36 and MAS 49/56 are now much loved members of the collection. Wish I had realized their worth sooner. I credit Ian for head slapping my mental block away. Thanks gents

[@mpetersen6]

That never fired dropped once is a very strong and unfortunate meme. I may disagree with French politics and policy* at times but I have nothing but respect for the French enlisted men as a whole. *As an American I find it oddly strange when my fellow citizens object when the US government pursues a policy that favors US interests but have no problem agreeing with a foreign nation pursuing a policy in it's own interest. And i have seen this no matter which political party has it hands on the wheel of the ship of state.

[@shipit7616]

A question out of ignorance: Why exactly did the Lebel become obsolete with the introduction of the kar98? What was so innovative about the 98 compared to the Lebel?

[@atfyoutubedivision955]

The lebel was a tube loader in a horribly shaped cartridge.

[@travispollett2120]

The basic answer is the loading system. They actually said the Lebel was obsolete with the 1888 commission rifle (and the '89 Mauser) because it had packet loading from chargers/stripper clips. Lebel was loaded one at a time into the magazine. The cartridge was more of a long term anchor holding the French small arms back for the next 50-60 years. Plus I have to imagine that the increased weight and bulk of the Lebel cartridge made it more expensive, in terms of how much material is used to make the cartridge, and harder to carry as much ammo compared to other cartridges of the day. Though I am speculating on that as I don't know how much material is used in making Lebel cases versus say 30-06 or 8mm Mauser.

[@duwop544]

Great chat!

[@DarkestVampire92]

As i've learned recently, the whole "The AR is a helicopter, its great when it runs but when something fiddly is broke its a nightmare of trouble- the AK has a wider range of enviroments where it just runs" is a bit of a misnomer... This legendary reliability only seems to apply to Izmash or really, really high quality AK clones, whereas the vast majority of ARs are "helicopters".

[@GunFunZS]

I think there's frankly a whole lot of survivor bias in that belief. AKs are all stamped and riveted together and pressed together. They tend to be pretty binary they are either working or not. There really isn't a lot of ability to replace any of the parts that go bad. if your bolt has been impacting your trunionand it's all peened up to the point where the bolt won't lock in you probably throw out the rifle, and get a new one. With an AR one that's very very unlikely to happen but two you can replace the bolt face and the trunion which is part of the barrel in about 20 minutes with an armorer's wrench. I saw ARs get used and have their bits gradually replaced and AKs mostly get junked and sold to the third world where they will put up with malfunctions. I spent a lot of time working on AK variants and involved in AK forums and I can tell you quite a lot izmash guns, and bulgy and veprs have real problems. In America we are inclined to expect flawless reliability in a way that the rest of the world doesn't. They're just are a lot of malfunctions in AKs and if you have somebody who has to know how to fix it they can but they typically need a lot more serious shop tooling to do so. so people say the AKs that are around after 40 years of abuse are still around. Just like 14th century Greek buildings that are still around are still around. That's a different proposition from saying all AKs last invariably was abuse. you see the ones that survived but you're not seeing the ones that got thrown out because they quit working. Or chopped up in pieces and reassembled in khyber pass. People make fun of the Khyber pass type guns and talk about them is managing to screw up an AK but they are really just the evidence that AKs wear out. The worn out AKs became parts for all of those little craft industries.

[@markuskoivisto]

@@GunFunZS it seems to be to be part of the design. There’s very few moving parts, and most parts do double duty. The selector lever is a safety and a dust cover. The bolt carrier is the gas piston, etc etc. The end result is very few moving parts and a rifle that can be field stripped into it’s seven parts in literally seconds even when blindfolded. Even children can do it - and in fact, they do. Like you said, the downside is that each part pulls double duty and if any of them break you will have to go to the armorer. The firing pin is captive in the bolt. When it breaks, you can’t repair it in the field - you could however drop in a new bolt. The Finnish army uses milled receivers in their AKs and the rifles have been going for over 50 years now, enduring conscript abuse all the time. I assume most parts have been swapped on all of them, but none of the rifles show their age. The KvKK light machine guns on the other hand could not boast the same type of longevity. Each one I shot sucked in its own special way. Sorry for rambling: I guess what I’m trying to say is that simple repairs are simpler than on an AR, and complex repairs are more complex.

[@markuskoivisto]

Just thought of a pithier way to put it: the AK is simpler to maintain for a soldier but harder for the armourer. With the AR it’s the other way around.

[@AgamemnonTWC]

I wouldn't even necessarily say that the complex repairs are that much more complex. We have high standards here. I'm not saying you *should* do this, but I can say from some experience you absolutely can do all your riveting on an AKM with a hammer, some scrap metal for backers, and framing nails. The barrel can also be beat in an out with the same hammer. It won't last forever, but it *will* work. If you need to produce an acceptably modern military rifle from a pile of parts of your choice and you have almost zero industrial capacity, an AK absolutely is the pick.

[@SlavicCelery]

Loving the video, hating the high pitched noise.

[@SlavicCelery]

It's taken me over a day to watch this. Good lord, put a high pass filter on it. I can only make it through like 10 minutes before starting to feel a headache creeping in. I know I got migraine issues, so not unique to me. But other people got to experience it.

[@sugarnads]

Being a BOTR i auto like before even clicking play. Its 1am, i have my cpap mask on. But like a small child im saying just five more minutes. And fighting my eyes closing damn those traitorous eyelids

[@thebotrchap]

No matchsticks handy?

[@sugarnads]

@@thebotrchap sadly no. Lol

[@colinfew6570]

That was great. Chap has such a nice calming voice.

[@davidyendoll5903]

Back in the day I had a hand me down car , a Renault 5 , from my brother which had a fault I could not resolve . My mate came round to help who was pretty knowledgeable about cars , English makes at least . So I open the engine bay and he looks around the motor. Suddenly he says 'where is the gearbox on this thing ?' , I say 'that's the gearbox in front of the motor ' . ' Kin perverts ' he replies . Lol

[@Terran994]

Hell the FAMAS safety sounds like the copied the safety selector from the SVT/AVT-40

[@Romuls753]

"offensive handgun use" is a great euphemism for interactions with the Russian 1895 Nagant 😁

[@quarkbent9165]

There appears to be a high frequency ring throughout the recording, unfortunately.

[@F1ghteR41]

27:15 ...And Madsen and MG-08/15. 27:18 Given its performance in the Project Lightening, I would very much doubt that. 32:56 All the while in 1938-39 there was a version fitted for FM 24/29 mags or some modification thereof. 35:40 Can't blame them, given what happened in 1934 in Paris and in 1936 in Spain. And in retrospect, the conduct of the French military leadeship wasn't stellar at all, and I'm not even talking about Pétain here.

[@jontee3437]

Can confirm that 8x57 will fire in a P17. Fortunately it only blew out the screw someone had threaded into the gas relief hole and blew part of the extractor off the bolt. Not fun

[@7hart2]

What were the drinks of choice in this episode? Can anyone illuminate me? Cheers!

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

France could've skipped 60 years getting to an AR derivative if they'd just adopt the AR-10 when they had the chance (and apparently wanted it)

[@robertoservadei4766]

Capital video Bloke! Good show, what!

[@terrywarner8657]

At about 1:03:55 Ian says the MAS 49 does not have a gas cut off. Umm. Pretty sure it does as part of the grenade launching arm sight hinge mechanism.

[@thebotrchap]

Nope, the gas tap was added on the 49/56, hence why the MAS36-51 was still in service as a workhorse grenade launcher

[@stewbacca117]

"Ah but you're not pricing the 'pride' factor" Casts side-eyes vociferously towards the entire L85 development clusterf*** process and how it would have just been easier to let HK make the damned thing from the outset ^^ Heckler and Koch, because even national arsenals dial 999/911 Or do what everyone else seemed to and buy an AUG

[@ludovicbertrand8296]

Or buy the FAMAS?

[@andresmartinezramos7513]

In this case they would dial 112

[@norwegianwiking]

When will Chap give us a video on the AA52?

[@thebotrchap]

When I have sorted a few mechanical issues which are prevented me from doing so.

[@norwegianwiking]

@@thebotrchap looking forward to it.

[@88porpoise]

I wonder how much of the French push for self-loading rifles was as a direct result of the Lebel. Was there a decision (conscious or unconscious) that they needed to seek out something way ahead of the curve to avoid adopting something that was almost immediately obsolete?

[@quentintin1]

it's more that they were able to correctly see what was coming (self loading pistols were coming around so rifles would get there eventually) so they focused on that path, the lesson from the Lebel was more that they took their time with it and explored every avenue (3 design lines spanning the better part of 15 years) instead of rushing down the first thing that looked like it would work, there was also the fact that semi autos were much more complicated to figure out while slapping a new cartridge in an old rifle is easy

[@88porpoise]

@@quentintin1 Pretty much everybody knew selfloading rifles were coming and many countries were playing with them it was just a question of when they would get there. And France made a conscious decision to skip overs refined bolt action rifle and go right to a semiautomatic rifle (like the Germans from the Gewehr 88 to the Gewehr 98 or the British from the Long Lees to the SMLE). Obviously one reason for this is to not buy millions more bolt action rifles, but I wonder if they feared adopting a Mauser 98/SMLE equivalent only to find that they are obsolete because someone had practical self loaders just a few years later

[@quentintin1]

@@88porpoise ii'm guessing that in their minds, the Lebel was what they wanted, just before the invention of smokeless powder, they were on the cusp of adopting a Kropatchek (Mle 1885) so it was pretty much a no brainer to put the new cartridge into the known system. now i don't know what the enginseers at the arsenals were looking at before Boulanger kicked down the door with his request for a rifle in what was effectively yesterday so i'm not sure what would have changed on the rifle side tho i'm fairly certain if they had the time they would have come up with a better cartridge than the atrocious 8x50 mm Lebel we know

[@88porpoise]

@@quentintin1 I doubt either 8mm Lebel or the Lebel rifle was what anyone really wanted. But it was the way to get smokeless powders in the field as fast as possible. And certainly before long the saw everyone adopting better rifles and cartridges and the replacing them with even better rifles. As much as it is derided, the 1888 Commission rifle easily outclassed the Lebel and I am confidant the French knew it. But instead of doing what others were doing and adopting a new bolt action (or even modifying the Berthier for infantry use) they decided to go straight to a self loader with a new cartridge.

[@qwerty30013]

This should be a podcast

[@BlokeontheRange]

There's a link in the description to it as a podcast ;)

[@qwerty30013]

@@BlokeontheRange my apologies. I meant the three of you should discuss more of these topics, perhaps in the form of a podcast rather than in person.