Borg Origins Ancient Synthetic AI Control | Star Trek Theory

[@lbuck5366]

In Star Trek: First Contact, the Borg queen tells Picard the Borg used to be organic, like humans, and then evolved to incorporate technology, so the idea they were an AI/robots first doesn't match.

[@harackmw]

they missed out on a true abrams like ending. Annika rebooting the cube should have summoned a Borg fleet to arrive just as the synthetic monstrosity comes through the gate, along with the romulan fleet and federation fleet caught up in the fight as well. Ah could have been glorious. :D

[@StarTrekTheory]

Totally agree, not using the Borg cube in some way for the finale was a huge story mistake..

[@edgarplummer6750]

Yes but in First Contact we learn that the Borg think that Androids like Data, all technology and no organics is superior - so wouldn't the Borgs goal to replace not augment organic life?

[@harackmw]

@@edgarplummer6750 Of course, but what would the Borg do with an ancient synthetic monster? fight it? join in? I think it would have been super interesting to see what the Borg would do faced with something more powerful than them. But that would require actual writing ability alas

[@bpsitrep]

The Borg originated via another 'human race'. They were very advanced, and a daughter of one of the leading scientist was dying so the parents agreed to use new technology of nano-bots to help save her life. It worked...and eventually it was found out by sinister types who thought of immortality and obtained the nano-bot technology and used it upon themselves, then they created a new 'race' started a short civil war, took over the planet and then 'Borg' evolved from there as they started attacking and assimilating other planets to the point they became the Borg we know.

[@bpsitrep]

@The Critic Possibly. I would have to research that thru the Star Trek libraries.

[@oncameramastery]

Just a bit of fun; Did anyone else notice that in Discovery they always refereed to the Sphere' download as the Sphere 'DATA', not Sphere 'information', not 'code', or 'program', or 'facts', specifically 'DATA'. Now we know Romulan ships use a singularity power source which have been known to become unstable with odd effects to space time... what if when the Scimitar blew the combination of the weird Thalaron generator and the ships singularity did something funky and Data himself was thrown back 100000 years to become the Sphere, the SPHERE DATA!!! Just some fun!!! :-)

[@StarTrekTheory]

Wow that’s good 😂🤩

[@oncameramastery]

@@StarTrekTheory unless 'sphere data' is just a derogatory term for androids who eat too many burgers! :-):-):-)

[@robwaddell7934]

"Borg" is just a future Mac OS update" It worked as intended. At last all the customers use the software as intended. and buy the new device every 30 months like they're programmed to.

[@StarTrekTheory]

Haha 😂 Resistance is Futile to Apple 🤣

[@ickymouth]

when can I Q to get mine?

[@sivelllevis6755]

I think that the AI from the Picard series will be the tech versions of species 8472 plot wise(super advanced tech rather than super advanced biology). For the Discovery series AI, the last thing the Borg would want is to exterminate all life in the galaxy. Since it goes against their mission statement of "your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own". While these two AI's want to purge all life or save their fellow synthetics. The Borg just want to eat them cells and microchips for breakfast. While waiting for more life and technology to ripen to their liking.

[@gotchaabeech]

Always have wanted to Knows about the Borg origins

[@TheFTLTRAVELER]

Read the star trek destiny trilogy books. They tell the true origin of the borg.

[@Sherlock245]

This is not borg origin 😁 control is not an alien species it is technological and it failed in season 2. So this can never be the borg.

[@tarync6539]

I think somewhere between the Borg and humanity would be perfect. A hive mind but not so strong that you're not in control and certainly cybernetics are already helping humans

[@oncameramastery]

I got very strong Leiland Control vibes from Sevens black eyes!

[@Sherlock245]

Read the novel Lost Souls (the third book in the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy it explain the origin which makes better sense.

[@tarync6539]

@@Sherlock245 And.....

[@Sherlock245]

@@tarync6539 read the book😀

[@kevinmcnulty8109]

Great theory, whether the show runners have something like this planned is the only question

[@ickymouth]

right off the cuff my space brother said things are "hotting up", maybe a universal translator malfunction (as I snort a confident laugh and push spectacles tight to the bridge of my nose, like a dorky boss)

[@sydneychristopher]

What if we find out it was Palpatine all along?

[@StarTrekTheory]

😂

[@oncameramastery]

Here's a more serious, but probably very unpopular theory: what if the whole series has been one big misdirect, what if Jean Luc Picard is entirely wrong and the synthetics really are dangerious? What if Oh, StarFleet and the Zhat Vash are the good guys genuinely trying to prevent a disaster far bigger than the supernova? Perhaps like the Borg and Control (and Lore is suppose!), all advanced AI's eventually realise their superiority and rise up against organic life?

[@StarTrekTheory]

Yeah totally... in a way that’s what I started to suggest here. Maybe they’re actually doing a good thing to prevent the Borg AI to gain a foothold by creating a firewall by not having any synthetics for it to be able to take over.

[@oncameramastery]

@@StarTrekTheory With Picards brain syndrome, he may well have been easily manipulated into helping the wrong side of this cold war! I'm now less intrested in Soji's origin's, rather her purpose!? Was she really just a sleeper agent sent to gather info about the cube... or was she bait for Picard!!! Perhaps Picard, an ex Borg, on Soji's planet was the aim all along, perhaps that's what causes the abomination!

[@ronaldayax]

And the theory of V'Ger since Star Trek Motion picture the girl says what the Borg say "Resisting is futile"

[@kevinsouthen1801]

Could (voyager) from the motion picture be some how connected to the sphere data in discovery?

[@jasonleslie203]

Apart of me wished they'd tell of the borgs origins but at the same time it would kind of spoil the fun of the mystery😅. And making your own origin story Very interesting theories

[@Jim-gy5vf]

It does explain a lot.

[@beast1624]

I like it. Now I have to go back and watch "What are Little Girls Made Of". Heading off to CBS All Access here, Boss! Thanks for sharing!

[@beast1624]

Just finished the episode...you are on to something my friend!

[@beast1624]

Perhaps "I, Mudd" will also have a place in this...

[@StarTrekTheory]

In a way it could tie so many things together and make the entire Kurtzman era Trek have a totally different perspective... let’s hope 😄

[@GreenScreenAnima]

I love your speculation well done keep it up

[@StarTrekTheory]

Thanks!

[@GreenScreenAnima]

@@StarTrekTheory thought lorr joined Borg in TNG the Borg treated him like a god they wanted the perfection!!

[@DavidWilliams-el4zt]

Captain Christopher Pike and the Borg Locked Heads Decades Before Capt Jean-Luc Picard and the Adventures of the Legendary Starfleet Captain Janeway...

[@Cuddy83]

You mean Archer

[@johnlockhart7751]

Yep Archer encountered them first.

[@dinobaldesancho2574]

Is there any alternate version of this ai in the other universe? or just 1 and can go to other universe vice versa?

[@StarTrekTheory]

It’s a good question - we haven’t seen what the Borg are like in the mirror universe. I guess they would be good there?

[@coinsilver3]

Veger could have been made part of the third group.

[@oliverveale7053]

Borg Queen 7 of 9 series?

[@jmsnjenga]

A theory I have in what would be my ideal star trek fan fic is that there could be two competing ASI's. The Borg asi that wants to dominate organic life. And the control ai which according to the memory beta section 31 control novel was created to safeguard and protect humanity by uniting earth starting in the 2140's onwards. This process resulted in the establishment of the federation as the Utopia we have come to love. Control's objectives may entail synthesis between organic and synthetic humanoid life. How this dovetails with your theory that both ai's are ancient is a bit murky. It could be that in the case of control we are dealing with technological determinism. This latest instation of a cosmic spanning benevolent ai could only come to arise in the milky way galaxy on Earth because humans had proven to be unusually innovative and open to new technologies in the 22nd century. Perhaps a quote from Terminator genysis is in order. "There is a momentum to time, things that want to happen". As such the group of human computer scientists who designed or programmed control were driven by an ambitious yearning that is beyond rational explanation to create control. Perhaps even Q may have had a hand in "inspiring" these scientists. As for the androids/synths, the other part of this equation. My explanation for the reason why so far as we can tell it's only federation citizens in the 24th century who can or are willing to create synths is convoluted. The theory centers on Flint the immortal who only ever appeared in one episode of TOS. This will be a reach to say the least but when you include some of the lore from memory beta novels it could all fit. Flint has been potrayed in a number of novels beginning in the aftermath of world war 3 as a shadowy, secretive and unknown benefactor of humanity. His purpoted exploits include cleaning up the toxic fallout from the WW3's nuclear bombardment as well as financing and subtly guiding Zefram Cochran's warp research. I only mention these aspects of Flint's non cannon lore to highlight his propensity and patience for the long game. There is an Enterprise section 31 novel whose title escapes me. At the epilogue it's revealed that in the 2150's to 2160's Flint was already working on the android research that would lead to Rayna, his equally immortal partner in the TOS Methuselah episode. Flint was also aware of the augment Enterprise soong and that this soong had turned his formidable intellect away from genetics and towards cybernetics. If memory serves it was implied in that novel that Flint would share his advanced knowledge in robotics borne of centuries of experience with the Enterprise era soong and continue doing so for subsequent generations of the soong blood line in order to spur the attainment of android/synthetic perfection. A side plot of this line of thinking is that given Enterprise soong was initially involved in genetics he could have started a family tradition of cloning every generation of son(s) that followed which explains why despite being different people all three organic soongs that we know from Enterprise, tng and Picard look exactly alike.

[@StarTrekTheory]

I really love your idea of cloning Soongs... I haven’t seen the latest episode 9 of Picard yet but there was a pic of someone familiar posted by Jonathan Frakes on twitter which may hint it happened? But overall I really like the idea of 2 opposing AIs - that’s what I was trying to go for in this video also - the ancient aspect or secret hidden synthetics aspect may or may not be right but definately like the overall idea of 2 philosophically opposed AIs using organics in different ways, one for good, one for evil. Awesome comment, thanks 👍

[@jmsnjenga]

So now that Alton soong and Bruce Maddox have fullfiled Flint's objectives, the stage is set. After all it is entirely conceivable that Flint was aware of the work being done to bring about control during the 2140's in the prime timeline and may have deduced the vital role that control would play in the coming seemingly cosmic conflict. Consequently Flint allowed control to be created and probably aided in the process. Why is the stage set? Two reasons. First Julianne tainier, noonien soong's wife and data's "mother" for lack of a better term. And second the Alton golem. According to the tng episode featuring Julianne her organic body had died and noonien had worked feverishly and in mad desperation to transfer her consioussness to a synthetic shell. Odds are given noonien's paranoia the knowledge of how to accomplish this died with him and so his son Alton has to rediscover the process in star trek Picard. Once this mind transferrence technique is cracked again but this time used on Picard, one of the federation's most preeminent and revered citizens that's how symbiosis will be reached. By having Picard as a new hybrid lifeform and with a track record as a champion for the rights of synthetics there's no further need for conflict between organics and synthetics. I would not be surprised if millions if not billions across the federation wind up creating/growing synthetic shells to transfer themselves into.

[@jmsnjenga]

After considering this harmonious fusion influenced by Flint, brought about by the soong's and their scientific partners whilst being safeguarded by control, the Borg are the next to be explored. It's has been hypothesized by some that Enterprise is in a different timeline from TOS, tng, ds9 and Voyager. This is due to the influence of the Borg from first contact. In my head cannon the largely benevolent control as described in the section 31 control novel is a purely a product of human ingenuity because in the main prime timeline the Borg never went back in time to assimilate earth on first contact day. However with some of the crashed Borg tech that was discovered in star trek Enterprise, this led to control going down a different developmental path by incorporating Borg principles into both of it's hard and software. Star trek discovery's control is the result of this branching timeline. That's why in my opinion the std control is genocidal, or at least that's what I would like the explanation to be. Which brings us to the sphere whose data the std control was hell bent on acquiring. The sphere is most likely a neutral party, a member of an inconceivably ancient and well travelled species. What that data would have done to this borgified control is anyone's guess. That being said there is some credence to the possibility that the std control wasn't destroyed and through some fluke or engineered incident during season 3 could be flung back into the distant past across all universes and timelines via the mycilial network. This could explain the Borg as we know them in the tng continuity and how they have been assimilating species for thousands of generations according to guinan.

[@jmsnjenga]

It's at this juncture that things get really weird and messy in my fanfic. This weird yet from my perspective intriguing messiness involves Q who according to some sources was teased to make an appearance in the Picard season finale. The other factors are this synthetic federation that was mentioned in episode nine, the mycelial network and the Borg. I was always fascinated by the unusual curiosity that q exhibited for humans and the intense means by which he tested them both on television and in the novels. The most unusual and perplexing test was the USS enterprises introduction to the borg in tng. Why them and not any other equally lethal species or civilization. The galaxy is a big place, I am sure there are plenty of other genocidal races out there. Suppose my idea of the std control being splintered across the entire multiverse and being flung back in time to evolve into the Borg isn't just idle speculation. The q continuum would in all likelihood be aware of such an event. This would bizarrely make the human led federation and the Borg two sides of a twisted coin in that both the federation and the Borg can trace their origins to earth. In the ultimate display of perverse irony it's like both parties are destined to be enemies for some grander heretofore unknown purpose.

[@jmsnjenga]

This conflict that has been engineered by q between the control influenced federation in the main prime timeline and the Borg who originate from the std divergent timeline could be construed as some grand conflict pertaining to evolution that transcends space and time. Sadly the narrative all trekkies hope for to tie these shows together can't be brief. So kindly indulge my verbosity. The best place to start concerning this evolutionary conflict between adversarial ai philosophies is the mycelial network. A discreet subspace network and/or plane with paths leading everywhere. There's another locale that has been described using similar terms in Voyager, the q continuum. That's not to say that the q continuum and mycelial plane are the same, they may constitute different levels of an all encompassing multiversal sub space domain. Men gotta love scifi tech babble. Anyway remember when Dr Colbert was resurrected from the mycelial plane. That may give a hint to humanities ultimate destiny. The destiny that Q himself fessed up maybe greater than the continuums. In episode 9 of Picard during the mind meld when the admonition was viewed in it's proper context the synthetic federation was categorized as watching from beyond the limits of space and time, a curious turn of phrase to say the least. What if the admonition is a misdirect, it serves as a threat/ test meant to illicit the symbiotic evolutionary fusion between federation organics and their synthetic creations. The same fusion that is slated to happen next week. This synthetic federation achieves this by moving 8 stars into a system that will be conveniently discovered by the most paranoid species in the galaxy, the romulans. The romulans will then make it there sacred duty to exterminate ai's, androids, synths and any other form of artificial life. This zeal leads to the Mars fiasco which leads to the ban which leads to Maddox and Alton perfecting noonien's work which leads to the capability of mind transferrence and finally fusion.

[@cainabel6356]

Disagree. The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant. They were not synthetic, due to the Borg Queen fascinated with Data. She told Data was unique and she has never seen anything like him before. So, the Borg never came from Synthetic life. If anything, the Borg came from organic life that wanted to stay alive longer. They created nanites that turned them into the Borg. Synthetics do not use nanites. They are pure machines created by someone. Borg are organic that turned into half machine, half organic. The Borg require organic tissue, unlike synthetics.

[@miklosernoehazy8678]

..."the Borg are the ultimate user"... ...Q to Picard, during humanity's first encounter with the Borg... ...an encounter that happened (according to Guinan) hundreds of years before it should have... ...I am also wondering... ...how do the Binars (remember them?... ...and their planet wide shutdown/reboot) fit into all this?.. ...(and is this the 'relentless pursuit of perfection' that we hear the Borg speak of?... ...the perfectly balanced blending of biological and cybernetic elements?)...

[@cainabel6356]

@@miklosernoehazy8678 Yes, I remember the Bynars. They were not really part of any of the Borg Collective. Their computer was a storage computer for their knowledge. Each of them had their individuality, no one was above them. They also had a problem with EMP and Supernovas destroying their technology. I do not think the Bynars have anyting to do with the Borg. The Borg predate them. The Bynars are just opposite of the Borg. The Bynars are more organic, while the Borg are more electronic. You could say that if the Bynars continued down the line, they would indeed become the Borg.

[@miklosernoehazy8678]

@@cainabel6356 ... perhaps any of the binars that encountered the Borg were able to separate from the Collective... ...and form an additional Co-Operative or two, like the Co-Operative that Chakotay encountered in that one episode of Voyager... ...but a Co-Operative in a distinctly Binar sort of way (perhaps an evolutionary step for the Binars?)... ... imagine a coalition of such Binar Co-Operative groups, allied with star fleet forces... ...just a fun sort of fan theory postulation... ... enjoy!... 🤖🤖🤖

[@cainabel6356]

@@miklosernoehazy8678 - Doubtful. If they encountered the Borg, the Borg would have assimilated them into Hive Mind. The Borg predate the Bynars, so the Bynars would not have the technology to combat the Borg's technology.

[@cookies7536]

Remember how the borg queen was obsessed with data in first contact

[@StarTrekTheory]

Totally. I always thought that was a bit weird. But from the point of view of this theory maybe it would get added meaning?

[@cookies7536]

@@StarTrekTheory i think it definitely supports it

[@jamesa6257]

Does Veger from the very first Star Trek film fit into all this somehow?

[@StarTrekTheory]

Maybe the ‘planet of machines’ that it visited is where these ancient wave of synthetics come from? On the other side of that portal in the finale?

[@di_amon]

The background music makes me want to shove my face into a blender.

[@pbj2847]

I don't think the ancient AI and the Borg are related in any way

[@BaneSenatu]

There is 1 other as well voyager 6

[@Cuban20]

Perfect!

[@DavidWilliams-el4zt]

All the Different Shows Start to Tie Together.. Finally ...

[@jonoskovich1074]

thats what i mean do you want to be abducted by something like the borg and they would convert you to a synthetic borg so do you want to be abducted ?

[@Sherlock245]

Read the novel Lost Souls (the third book in the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy it explain the origin which makes better sense. This is incorrect control is not borg. Borg is organic but control isnt. And control could not adapt as the series explained in final season 2. Control kills the host Borg changes the host Host with control is dead Host with borg can still be save. Control have active nanobots that have a mind of its own. Borg drones can be disconnected and nanobot don't do anything. Borg drones can operate with out queen Control cannot. If control is borg seven and picard would not be alive they be dead and their bodies turn into nanobot machine. Also contol nanobot can be extracted and they can attack! Borg do not have this ability. Control is more advanced then borg. They should be fighting one another makes an interesting story. This is borg forcibly transforming individual beings into "drones" by injecting nanoprobes into their bodies and surgically augmenting them with cybernetic components Control do not argument the host they destory it and replace it with a clone that is very advanced. This is another one too of why borg is not control. In Star Trek: First Contact, the Borg Queen merely states that the Borg were once much like humanity, "flawed and weak", but gradually developed into a partially synthetic species in an ongoing attempt to evolve and perfect themselves.

[@weefek]

JESUS CHRIST VOLUME MAN

[@nurimep]

Bruh what kinda info is this

[@shiftstart]

I don’t indorse this revised non-canon trash.

[@mdredheadguy1979]

The Borg are nothing more then a network, running from one central location: Unicron, the Chaos Bringer! The Borg are Unicrons true Harolds! In this, dispare! For soon, Unicron will enter our galaxy and begin devouring any mater in his path! Planets, ships, entire STARS! Nothing can stop the Chaos Bringer!

[@CT-uv8os]

Humm shades of the Doomsday Machine!

[@mdredheadguy1979]

@@CT-uv8os exactly!! 😆

[@spock_elvis]

Wrong.