Bow Speed Tests | All LIES?!?! | Why bow speed numbers are always wrong!

We test three different chronographs to show why bow speed tests never show the IBO/ATA advertised numbers!
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[@averagejackarchery]

Listen, folks...if I had the brand new Garmin chrono available to me, don't you'd think I'd be using that $600 tool? Lol. So please, stop asking. 😊

[@bullitkatcher]

You could take a look at the virtuepb clock chrono. Same tech as the Garmin, but made for paintball and costs about a third of the price. They're used in paintballing for almost 10 years now

[@tullymahin]

Can't you get a radar gun?

[@robertsumner3615]

As a huge fan of data and statistics this is precisely the type of video I love, it certainly shows the variables and how they are employed to achieve a desired outcome by the bow manufacturers

[@rogerhook8002]

Producing these informational pieces is your expertise. The new archery shop has occupied your time, however, I'm glade to see you producing material that I find helpful. Best wishes for the new year for your and your family.

[@o.n.e.wayhunting]

Excellent video. There are those on KZbin who know the sweet spots on the chrono they are using and put their favorites through it and the others off center. There are also those who unintentionally shoot through different areas just because they are more concerned about pumping out a video than being precise.

[@cozycare1655]

Awesome and informative. If big manufactures have a standard of measuring speeds using the IBO specs. They should all list the certified chronograph they are using. Usually when it comes to measurement devices, they all need to be calibrated and tested prior to use. Then again for us average users we should really concentrate on our form and how many times a day/week/month we go out and practice at the range or our backyards, rather than the speed of a bow. Thanks again for the informative video AJA. Happy New Year and God Bless 🤙🏽

[@deanbrantley]

Welcome back Nate, very nice informational return.

[@spodyr6]

Love this kind of information. Really helps explain the variability of various chrono's. Thank you !

[@chrisbowman2030]

Another quality video again! I heard manufacturers also use bows without any accessories in the string. I measured a 5 fps decrease in speed just by adding a 14 grain peep to the string. You can also use strings and cables with lesser strands, put silikon lube on the cable slide and the list goes on and on. All these small things add upp. Thanks Nate!

[@wrsayraw8472]

Great video! And nice to hear you mention 2 other awesome channels!

[@mine8009]

I absolutely love this video and the way you underscore the different factors affecting speed calculation. I’m curious though, with the introduction of radar based systems (lab radar, Garmin) if the newer systems are more consistent than the light gate systems or if they are prone to similar skewing.

[@nitro1275]

Nicely done. Very informative . Keep up.the greats videos and information

[@robolyn]

Awesome video sir. And this confirms what I've suspected for years. I own the pro chrono and every time I decide to try a different arrow build it eventually is fired through my chrono after all the weights and measures are set to where I want them. And before I do that, I've always plugged my numbers in to one of the many online arrow speed calculators to see where it's going to end up. EVERY SINGLE TIME my chrono reads about 12 fps slower than the calculator says. My suspicion has always been that the chrono was slow because numbers and math typically don't lie. Thank you for shedding some light on this and bringing at least a small amount of validity to my thoughts and hours of frustration 🤣 Keep up the good work brother been following your stuff for years 👍🏻

[@dereksmith9914]

I have found the same thing when I shoot through a pro chorno but I always thought the chrono speed was the more correct one. After this video I'm not so sure. It's nice that it's not just me.

[@jebstuart1323]

I watched it done at Darton years ago. They had a hot chrono but thats not all of it. Say they made your bow with a 26 strand string. The bow being shot contained a 18 or 20 strand. The rest they used was a Vegas style with a small saddle. Cam bearings had been lubed with some kind of oil. Its always been a joke.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Much appreciated. I didn't know this. Great information. Well done.

[@jeffbaker5038]

Nice job. Very interesting results. Thanks!

[@mikemellon80]

First guy to actually show this. Great job. See lots of reviews from the top bow reviewers and they just say how the manufacturers exaggerate

[@georgemyers6518]

The bad part about those variances is that ASA has speed limits for 3D. What if they tested your rig through a chronograph that’s reading hot and you were just actually just under the wire to start with. That would be bad to get disqualified with a legal rig. I certainly do appreciate all that you do making these videos for us

[@onlyonebran]

Funny you say that. My bow is anywhere from 273 to 291 depending on chrono used at the club. Legal for 40yd classes at 1 club and over speed at another without changing a single thing. Just 1 of many reasons i do not shoot ASA for a serious score.

[@wanr5701]

Perhaps that's the reason why World Archery didn't even have speed limits across all formats under their association (field and 3D included), instead having only poundage limit of #60 for compounds.

[@baloneylorddonkeyhammer2273]

Awesome video great breakdown of chorono and the reality of there accuracy.

[@jackbuendgen389]

Thanks for the vid Nate!

[@WadesSwampDonkeyArchery]

Good Video Nate. I have said several times in my videos "I use the Grey ProChrono" that I feel the numbers are colder on that chrono. I usually don't put a lot of emphasis on the speed numbers. I do see that Garmin put out the chrono that uses Radar I believe. I am looking foward to trying that one. Have you had a chance to try it?? Keep up the good work! Im happy to see your shop doing well Bud!

[@dougdiplacido2406]

Thanks for a great and informative video.

[@stick__shooter]

Great info, Nate!

[@positivenotekeyboard]

Thanks for this fascinating analysis! It definitely clears up a lot of issues regarding the disparity in chronograph speeds as advertised. Moreover, like most bow shoppers, I've erroneously placed a lot of emphasis on this data when considering bows to purchase. You've untapped a very important shopping variable that deserves widespread publicity. It would be great if all bow manufacturers employed the same methodology regarding the factors you mentioned--shooting height/angle, type of chrono, etc. Obviously the speed numbers would still have variances, as draw length and arrow type also affects velocity. Nice job Jack! What inspired you to make this video?

[@anthonyforfare7223]

Great video! Well done and great work! Happy New Year 🎊🎈🎆 God Bless you and your family 🙏😇👍✨😎☝️

[@zachlambert8219]

Loved the video! I always use the same one and compare it to like archers advantage or archers mark. At the end of the day the tape doesn’t change like chronos do. Make your sight marks and check those for a speed. I’ve found that a better system than a tape based on speed myself

[@chrisjanes3822]

Brand A just flooded the classified and Brand B is on everyone's Amazon watch list😂😂

[@edwardberns1341]

Awesome video, I just learned how Kevin strothers got his ibo speeds, he must of shortened his chronos to get his speed. an inch does matter.

[@theharvestoutdoors]

This is some good info!!

[@YoureSoVane]

I do love my LabRadar, and it gives me much more consistent readings. I let guys at the range shoot their bows through it for free, known the shop charges money for anything. Now I have some proof that the shop has bad numbers, too.

[@dancopeland6304]

Great explanation of speed tests. I have two chronographs in my shop and they are not cheap ones. Different numbers out of the exact same machine. The industry is to hung up on speed. I would like to see all these numbers taken off bows. Great job buddy.

[@user-mx4sk2sz9z]

Always appreciate the "real world" videos. Confirms another thought i had. I am also curious about how many shops are just setting a rest level, an arrow at 90° and running different weight arrows through the chrono...not tuned properly and getting nock right/left/high/low will change the angle as it goes through the chrono. Not to mention losing fps as the arrow is trying to correct itself right off the bow. Either way, another great video and appreciate the time/effort you put into them!

[@averagejackarchery]

Thank you!

[@daveeastcott9323]

Nice one. Good info

[@joevandivner9704]

Good info. Also wondering if u will be doing Lancaster again this year and if so are you still doing hunter class? If so hope to see u there and good luck

[@michaelcolthart4006]

This is a good video, well done.

[@topJimmyP1984]

Good info, thx!!

[@johndonato3638]

@averagejackarchery This was fascinating! Maybe the testing needs to go back to timing the sound difference between arrow release and impact. You did this some years ago with "The Budget Sportsman" and it matched (within 1 FPS) whatever chrono you were using at the time.

[@TheBudgetSportsman]

Interestingly, we were using a Pro chrono very similar to the slowest chrono on this video.

[@jeremylandphier692]

Boy is this a touchy subject in the bow world , I’m not at all basing my bow purchase on speed anyways but yet I’m all about accuracy !

[@maynardcarmer3148]

With my Chrony- the blue one- they recommend shooting at about 5" above the sensors.

[@chucklewis5396]

I get a hotter number with my ProChrono the higher I shoot. I"m guessing because the beam spread is larger the farther away from the sensor you get.. and making the actual distance between the front and back smaller depending on the angle you shoot. I work with a lot of sensors that work similar and see things like that happen. At the factory I'm pretty sure they always run hot strings too.. 20 strand or something like that. Great vid man!

[@larrydrake8457]

Very good observation Nate, interesting!!

[@waynehumphrey8910]

I have the old blue one you have there only use it for when I have someone telling me that they’re shooting 350 with a 60 pound bow and 600 grain arrows

[@user-il9ip8no2o]

One man measured 400 fps in the cold and said that it was about the lubrication of bearings and the thickness of the bowstring. The speed also depends on the weight of the pipsite and its position on the string, the further away from the knockpoint and the lighter the pipsite, the higher the speed.I use a homemade pipsite made of aluminum tubing.Manufacturers measure speed without a pipsite at all, getting the maximum result, and when you put a pip, well, you get it.

[@bbmas1930]

Two things. If you were able to find a bona fide accurate chrono to use as a reference, assuming that your own one was reading slow, theoretically you could bend the rear sensor towards the front to ‘calibrate’ yours to the reference one. Also it’d be interesting to see if fletching size or arrow length/diameter / material makes a difference as surely the way it disrupts the sensors would vary. Eg shiny aluminium vs Matt carbon. 4mm vs 6mm, bareshaft vs 4 fletch helical.

[@jeffreyenglebert9016]

MFJJ checked his (Caldwell?) against the new Garmin and they were the same I believe.

[@MickyMouseLimited]

Few years back you made a video about getting arrow speed based on sound and calibrated distance . I tried the same test and my numbers were really accurate. Alot less error since the distance is longer.

[@adamredden2007]

Wow... that's eye opening

[@buckallison7279]

Great Video.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

I have never had a bow or crossbow not meet the advertised speed with bolts or arrows of tested weight.

[@HighRoad317]

Excellent science!!!

[@JstSurf]

Interesting question about how the manufacturers come up with their rated speeds. I assume there would be a standard, calibrated, chronograph, but we all know what assume means.

[@josephr1198]

Garmin xero c1 and Labradar use Radar (bow reviewers should be using these two) (Magneto speed uses magnets but it's mainly a rifle chrono) IR chronographs except for very few (oehler 35p for example) all kind of suck. Bow manufacturers should be using Radar, or high end chronos like the oehler 35p (which isnt made anymore)

[@RandomAmerican]

When it comes to my base line reviews I always go to mikes arechery just because it's the same consistent review and it gives me the basic numbers I need

[@renurenovationsllc7780]

Both the The shops I used to go to had a Pro Chrono, I had my own F1chrony, and they all read EXACTLY the same number, I am surprised to see this much variation.

[@timgruver5932]

Really a revealing video. 👍👍. What type of light is on that portable stand ? Incandescent? Fluorescent? LED? I have problems getting any degree of consistent readings on my ProChrono brand while in my house shop. Outside in the natural light it’s fine.

[@xcmandan]

It a light kit sold specifically for prochrono by prochrono

[@averagejackarchery]

I use LED light panels that i would use for filming. Max Kelvin, max power.

[@halfstep67]

I have a Speedtach Chrono made by Custom Chronograph Company. I can shoot thru it 10 times in a row, and it won't change no more than 1 FPS. These were some of the best chronographs made but they are no longer making them. I had a folding beta chrono, but it was inconsistent. The pro-chrono is known to be on the slow side.

[@chucklewis5396]

You can also find a speed calculator that lets you put in all the data of the actual bow and then check that number against what you get on the chrono..

[@OldPackMule]

EXCELLENT REVIEW. wonder what the new Garmin will do. People want objective numbers to rate a subjective evaluation. I guess the industry should use other metrics.

[@magellcandelaria1948]

Nate I am curious of the results of 2 chronographs if they were in a line (co-linear) so a shot would pass through both, how would the IBO speeds compare? Could you experiment with arrangement?

[@XXXston3wallXXX]

Thank you.

[@bricedudley4612]

That’s why there should be a standard chronograph operation where manufacturers ship or hand deliver bows that are tested and used on the same calibrated and tested chronographs and numbers are sent out that can be officially recorded, manufacturers can buy same chronograph for testing but official numbers by a strict company test in same location only. All arrows and hooter shooter 100% calibrated. Like a cars mpg etc.

[@BY-dq3mt]

Interesting video. I simply want my chrono to give an accurate reading. I have the grey pro chrono, cost $150 maybe. I think it produces accurate numbers because I have been using the fps numbers in the Precision Cut Archery app to produce sight tapes. So far, the tapes are on the money. That could only be the case if the fps input was accurate, correct? The sight tapes are produced from a math equation.

[@johnhildenbrand2642]

No industry standard with either equipment or methodology makes 100% of manufacturers claims about bow speeds worthless. At best it gives you a relative speed comparison between the specific manufacturers bow line-up, and then only if they are consistent with their testing

[@kschmo3981]

Good stuff

[@joshovans2850]

Any idea what that axxis 31 is putting up for speeds with a 27 inch draw and 440 ish grain arrow?

[@allenshafer7666]

Quite possibly the best archery related video on KZbin! Well done sir

[@Oleman72]

This is great

[@chrisbunn4089]

Try taking the fletching off the arrow and watch things go up

[@indy5797]

This is why consumers should never compare numbers from one influencer to another. It is also why all influencers should use a properly set up Oehler 35p instead of the cheap crap you did your test with. The Oehler does not cost that much more, but provides accurate numbers. Maybe AJA should lead the way with this. Be sure to also provide your test protocol if you do choose to provide us some honest data.

[@2ndAveScents]

Yeah it’s not that much more, just like 6 times more than the ones most people use lol. The real point of the chrono for at home use is relativity, not absolute numbers. People just want to see what changes they make and how they affect their velocity and that holds true between archery and firearms. For bow tests, using the same chrono to compare all the flagship bows gives you more than enough information imo

[@wanr5701]

Imagine going to ASA or IBO events with a rig tested at home for speed limit, only to have it retuned (or worse, disqualified) on site. Perhaps that's the reason why World Archery didn't even have speed limits across all formats under their association (field and 3D included), instead having only poundage limit of #60 for compounds. Which for me makes more sense as it is easier to police poundage than speed limit.

[@DanielReyes-hz1qk]

Have you tried the new Garmin chrono?

[@sportbikeguy9875]

That's it, we need a $100,000 slow motion camera to do speed tests lol

[@wildpigremovalinc.executio8028]

Nice video. Agreed the IBO speed is garbage, every manufacturer's should be required to provide accurate information. Regulations finally made car manufacturer's tell the truth about miles per gallon.

[@dewboy910]

Use the same Chrono to compare all your bows and that will atleast give you an idea how fast they are in comparison to one another. I knew the folding type would give faster speed on many cases. I have no desire to fool myself, so I always avoided these types. And HELL NO, I am NOT going to stop being picky about my bows speeds.

[@tonyviers-de9qi]

Hey jack . Great video . But you’re going through all this …. Why not build a 350 gr arrow for the video

[@l.i.archer5379]

Hey Nate, I bought a Bear Whitetail Maxx, but they're out of stock on the Bear Paw grip at the manufacturer. Would have happen to have one in stock that I could buy and you could send me?

[@averagejackarchery]

Yes! Shoot us an email [e-mail]

[@honeybadger7002]

Based on the IBO, etc. ratings, my rig and set up, should be spitting my sticks out at 276 fps 🤔 But in reality...... they're only doing 236!!! Four flights does slow it down 🤣 Dont panic team😉, they still take rabbits, goats, pigs and deer regularly.... buuuutt compared to my mates arrow speed when he shoots, the animals can defiantly see my arrow coming 😬😬

[@IntuitiveUniversity]

Let's talk about that tag on the bow. I'd like to buy an unmolested bow but I know that's near impossible. New $1500-$2000 bows should be new.

[@averagejackarchery]

Well, molested might be a bit of a strong term....hard to buy a bow or car without a test drive. Both are going to have miles, albeit quite limited, before they're purchased.

[@IntuitiveUniversity]

@averagejackarchery Bows really shouldn't be compared to cars at all. Most Archery shop owners are bitter ND don't care about their customers. I get it, I've seen it enough. It's obviously due to several different reasons but it's still a fact. That's relevant to the whole thing but back to selling used Bows as new ones. You know the Bows that are put together that sit on the rack from months to years. The Bows that get picked up, bumped, cams tweaked from swinging on hangers and shot by several different people. You know, the Bows and its components that are definitely molested before being purchased. Then the consumer has dealt with parts of the bow failing fairly premature. This happens a lot. Bows should be boxed, unmolested, and put together at the time of purchase. Facts

[@Markus__B]

@@averagejackarchery test driven cars usually come discounted and are not the ones you actually buy. you test it, spec it out to your liking, and then you get your car "new in box". Do you discount test bows that were shot by numerous people?

[@callummethley5082]

Why isn't there an institution that every bow manufacturer needs to have their bow tested - same environment and same testing equipment - speed does sell, its one of the major selling points with every manufacturer...

[@marysumner2516]

I thought everyone knew IBO speeds are created using dangerously light arrows/bolts to get those impressive numbers! Ive always found theyre inflated by anywhere from 5-20 fps.

[@garrettstraffon608]

Oh wow. I’ve been being lied to forever ! These speed test are junk, thanks for showing us this

[@MikeJones-vb1me]

Are the manufacturers numbers supposed to be based on standard draw weight and length and arrow weight?

[@averagejackarchery]

Yes, 30"/70#, 350gr arrow.

[@MikeJones-vb1me]

@@averagejackarchery great thank you!

[@allenshafer7666]

Can you send this to MFJJ?

[@christian_U81]

Nr 2 is a bad chrono way tomuch difference. Shoot a bareshaft and se what you get😊

[@NicholasANappiNick]

I understand they use a shooting machine🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳

[@pickin4you]

Too many worried about speed and not enough worried about accuracy and proper shot placement. Speed means nothing if you miss or make a poor shot.

[@vfonte218]

Why isn't there a chrono that is accurate and standarized

[@mikefutrell4224]

😎

[@jthepickle7]

I want rid of a brand new bow with which I have tried to shoot a bullet hole during the last 3 1/2 months. Leave info. Pay shipping. It is yours. To reiterate, I want RID. Only serious, strong folk need apply. (I am 'this far' from taking a 3# sledge to free myself from it) Currently, the bow in question sits on my very bed, calling to me to perform yet another adjustment, another twist of its strings, another tweak to its bolts, another delving into the black hole of in-adjustability - my love, my lark, my demise. Oh! for wont of just one string, stretched on some found , trustworthy branch...and perhaps an arrow.

[@Futurase1]

With no industry standard numbers mean nothing. I buy what draws best. Only reliable way is to use radar based.

[@Angel.Custodio]

My problem with IBO, in addition to the easy caught manipulation we see here, is the 70#, 30” draw is used just to see a high number. The should should at 60#, 28-29”, 425 grain since that’s where most people will fall

[@lgentry4832]

IBO can use any poundage up to 80 lbs, +/- 2 lbs, with 5 grains per pound arrow. There are no draw length limitations for IBO speed ratings. You are thinking of ATA speed ratings, which use 70 lbs +/- 0.2 lbs and 30" draw length measured from the deepest part of the grip to the bowstring. IBO ratings are a joke, yes.

[@chrississon2646]

🏹🎯

[@philbow6374]

Fantastic information, bows are fast these days, from fleet bows to mid range bows, too much emphasis put on speed, be accurate and you will be fine.

[@EpiiKSiiNz]

Someone should show this to mfjj

[@justinrodabaugh3746]

What difference would that make? He’s used two different chrono’s getting roughly the same speeds on both. He’s even said bow manufacturers are doing everything they possibly can to manipulate the test. The whole argument goes away when you see 1 manufacturer getting within 5 fps of advertised IBO and others 15-20 slow from the same chrono. Truth is until every bow manufacturer shows exactly how they are testing and shows the actual numbers they are getting we have no reason to believe they aren’t bullshitting us.

[@UltraLimitedHD]

"Chrony" chronographs (foldable) are out of bussiness.

[@driftlesshunter9200]

Chronographs may be useless? Is that our take away from this? Bottom line - Bow specs have changed very little in the past 10+ years. The slight difference in speed from one model to the next is probably more about brace height than cams or limbs. 2013 my current bow specs: 35" ATA, 340 fps, 6.25" brace height, & 4.5 pounds. 2024 same brand bow specs: 34" ATA, 342 fps, 6.25" brace height, & 4.5 pounds. 2024 Athens Axxis 35 specs: 35" ATA, 325 fps, 7" brace height, & 4.7 pounds. Last year's Vista 35 (330 fps) was slightly faster with a shorter 6.5" brace height. You're somewhat balancing forgiveness versus speed these days. I like the draw cycle, solid back wall, accuracy, speed, ease of tuning, quietness, & warranty of my current bow, & I've learned to be content with what I already have.

[@marksamluk9879]

In all Honestly IBO speed is irrelevant only to match some bow sights. Other then that when shooting a target or a Animal your ibo is the last thing your thinking about.

[@michaelficarro2591]

The bow companies claim IBO speeds, 80lb + - 2 lbs, MAX draw length(could be over 31", 400 grain arrow. ATA is what everyone on u tubes seems to measure 70lbs, 30" draw and 350 grain arrow....

[@michaelficarro2591]

That being said the sky screen type chronos are basically only good for a rough estimate.....

[@bartbug1]

I couldn't give a rats arse on IBO.....if it hits my target of game and drops them quickly I'm happy. This IBO garbage is all for ego. I've been hunting with a recurve bow at 50lbs, I've dropped plenty of pigs and goats here in Australia. People get so hung up on the IBO instead of kinetic energy which is way more important along with shot placement. Single cam compound bow 30 yrs ago were only shooting 270 flat out with a 350grain arrow. Just hunt/ stalk and place your shots well with practice and you'll be fine.