Microtonal Guitar Etude and Demonstration - 27 EDO

[@emilianomartinez3124]

it always amazes me how you dominate xenharmonics so well, keep up the good work Brendan :)

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you!

[@zAvAvAz]

He gets it from my Father in Heaven. I am knoweth.

[@sus-kupp]

I cant believe youtube would wait so long to recommend me this video, this is awesome!

[@OrdwaysChannel]

Nice! 27 is a very underrated tuning.

[@jeffthechristian3010]

You give a true example of actually playing this instrument *before* going into the talk. Well-done.

[@philjoseph6748]

Great Video Brendan! I've Really enjoyed experimenting with microtonality for the first time myself over the past 10 months or so. Finding your music was a real treat. Like you said, your ability to take 22 EDO, 27 EDO and other Microtonal subdivisions and find the "pretty" chords to make wonderfully new, and somewhat alien music without much dissonance is incredible. I will have to try out some 27 EDO for myself. You are a huge inspiration to me and after enjoying Neutral Paradise and Realism so much I can't wait for your new guitar based album.

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

That's really great to hear, thank you!

[@xenoindex]

16:48 I think that chord is two 15/11 intervals stacked on top of each other with a fifth mixed in. As a section of the harmonic series it's roughly 8：11：12：15, or more accurately maybe 14：19：21：26. It's worth noting that 15/11 is close-ish to 11/8 which also might be why you like it.

[@emilianomartinez3124]

thanks for helpig out man, i was also trying to figure it out

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

cool, yeah that makes sense, thank you! great point about the 15/11 - I didn't realize that it was tuned so accurately

[@ChiffCharang]

@@BrendanByrnesMusic I hear it as almost a bitonal chord, like it could be heard as some kind of E6/9, but it could also be heard as an F# "8:9:11" sort of thing with an E in the bass. Fundamentally ambiguous because the lower 4 tones sound like an E chord, and the upper 4 tones sound like an F# chord (and they share 3 tones).

[@ascendedalchemist2551]

Hey my dood nice to see u

[@zAvAvAz]

So, 16/13 is somewhat like a quarter bend 4:3.

[@baloe48]

Great video, I have always liked the sound of the neutral third so it was fun to see it used here

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you!

[@johnnyphoney5669]

16:48 This chord sounds interesting for me too. Does not sound like out of tune or whatever. Probably when the waves of all the notes are interfering with each other they balance the dissonances into actual consonance if that makes sense. I would like to synthesize those intervals separately and all together and look at the waveforms.

[@gunnardenton5972]

It's like a "suspended 5th" rather than 4th or 2nd. Has that lofty unresolved feel without being a harsh clash.

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Yeah, I agree and think that's a big part of it. The top 3 notes sound very concordant played by themselves, which I think gives it some stability.

[@SkeletonStyle]

This is great, man! Love getting insights into what chords you're playing, since they're not necessarily chords that would occur to me to play in this tuning. Your etude is awesome for covering so much harmonic ground without sounding clinical and forced. I always knew 27edo had a lot of harmonic potential, since it's really very accurate in the 13-limit--especially if you leave out the 11th harmonic and ratios of 11 in general, because if you do that it's the most accurate EDO until you hit 31edo. But actually hearing it in action is something else! The uniform sharpness of harmonics 3, 5, 7, 9, and 13 seems to be the secret sauce, since that makes the intervals that occur between those harmonics more in-tune. Compared to 22edo, 27edo has a much better 5/3, 7/3, 7/5, and 9/5, and of course does a MUCH better job of approximating all the ratios of 13. I've been a big fan of neutral intervals from playing so much in 17edo, but it seems like 27edo opens them up a lot more by giving a wider variety of chords to use them in. So cool!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Thanks very much! That's a great point about the uniform sharpness.

[@RandomScreenName]

Great stuff!! Beautiful etude... What I hear at 16:22, with that chord, is you are playing an "upper structure 6:8:9:11" where the 8 is the "F#" or whatever you want to call it, which then has the E in the bass. So it's like F#(6:8:9:11)/E. I would bet if you added some extra notes on top, like F#(6:7:8:9:10:11:12)/E, it would also fit into that vibe. Beautiful chord and I really love polychords like that, I view them as JI generalizations of things like the major 9 chord...

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Thanks Mike! That makes a lot of sense, thank you!

[@camtaylormusic]

Coming to this party real late, after watching a bit of the Microtonal Guitar Festival from MU, but I also hear the upper 6:8:9:11 (a total Brendan Byrnes-ism, and one of my favourite of your favourite chords, and I feel like I've heard you use it a lot in 22-equal and JI too) over a note a whole step below, thus extending our classic lydian flavour. If one was going to think of it as a single harmonic series one could call it something like 16:54:72:81:99, which is a mess on paper, but at least one can spot the 98:99 comma happening above your expected "perfect fifth" above the root. I guess as a 4:5:6 major chord a step/ninth above the root is already 16:36:45:54 in JI, maybe this chord isn't as crazy as you thought. And I do agree you could make an even stronger tie in by adding more of either harmonic series. The harmonic series keeps being where most of the beautiful chords come from...

[@ossifrage6828]

Please don't stop doing this stuff!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

I won't!

[@mauriciovinco6143]

Look forward to listening to your new album! Great palette!

[@gunnardenton5972]

Really interesting stuff. Thanks for taking the time to take us through it!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Thanks for listening!

[@Bronco541]

Your ears arent messed up, its beautiful:D i bet enjoying this is really an aquired taste like brussle sprouts or whiskey.

[@SendyTheEndless]

Sounds like a De Chirico painting. Lonely and magical.

[@Jay_in_Japan]

This is the kind of stuff that deserves waaay more recognition! I love it so much ❤

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Thanks very much!

[@elijahberegovsky8957]

Oh wow! So cool! First 27EDO piece I like, largely because your guitar has such a nice sound. And repetition legitimizes, yeah ;)

[@markop.1994]

Repetition legitimizes

[@ryancole3359]

Repetition legitimizes

[@robertscopinich7043]

So cool!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you!

[@ossifrage6828]

Another one yes!

[@targz4139]

neat, maybe I'll play around with 27 a bit

[@bruce0079]

Very cool. I’ve never seen a guitar like this. Beautiful playing

[@TomWinspear]

Great demo, so informative - can't wait for the album

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you!

[@ossifrage6828]

Hey do you ever use the 9 edo mavila scale or any modifications of it? I really like mavila in general

[@Darkopolypse98]

this is beautiful music, i loved listening and i hope to explore and hear more

[@NewGoldenAgeOfTerra]

I think we will do well to come up with a better term for those ratios of 13 than "neutral." I get why they are called that but their effect in a musical sense is not "neutral." If they were neutral it would mean (to my notion, anyway) that they lack importance, that they would be discardable or ignorable. Maybe "intermediate" (between what we think of as "major" and "minor") wouldn't have that connotation. Yes, I know "intermediate" has give syllables and "neutral" had only two, so the latter is easier to say. Yeah that last "off" fifth is interesting.

[@NewGoldenAgeOfTerra]

Sweet or sour? Coming from continual indulgence in 12-EDO, a lot of those intervals sound sour; even the major triad sounds a bit "out of tune." But via tricking the mind into accepting the tuning with openness and curiosity on its own terms, one realizes that it has a lot to offer and as you say (allow me to paraphrase), those harmonies that are inaccessible in 12 (w/o string bending...) but that 27 opens up for use and tend to normalize have their own kind of beauty.

[@toimine8930]

@@NewGoldenAgeOfTerra well 27 edo is pretty sharp on average, so a major triad *is* actually out of tune; but unlike in 12 edo, since everything is sharp, it works out for some reason

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Yes, good point about the term "neutral". "Mid 3rd" is used on the xen Wiki which maybe works better. They don't sound neutral to me either, but to my ears they definitely have an "in between" quality to them.

[@danterosati]

nice one!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thanks!

[@SCWood]

Do you like 22 or 27edo more? Cause I noticed 27edo took up more of your last album

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

I like them both equally. 27 EDO is more unfamiliar to me, and I haven't had the 27 guitar for very long, so it's a bit more exciting to me at this point.

[@andyharman3022]

I'm amazed at how true you can get the notes to ring with that narrow fret spacing. It looks like you're using your fingertips, or maybe even fingernails to get the strings depressed to the intended frets. Would you find it beneficial to your playing if the frets could be wider spaced, while maintaining the same EDO?

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Haha, I would love it if the frets were a bit wider! Your fretting does have to be very precise to get the notes to speak properly. Often, your fingers will actually be covering two frets, so you just have to find the sweet spot where you can get the note to speak. The fingernail technique does also work (and is sometimes required) for the frets higher up on the neck.

[@authentic_candor]

The legend

[@letimo6721]

I rarely clicked so fast on a video. And one question: what do you think about 19-TET? I will get myself a guitar neck with this. Keep up the great work!

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thanks! I’ve honestly never really played around with 19 EDO much, but I’ve liked what I’ve heard.

[@letimo6721]

@@BrendanByrnesMusic Another question: how do you tune this guitar?

[@ElaineWalker]

Oh I love it! So soothing.

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you, Elaine!

[@ItzCollapsabLE]

Amazing

[@robinphillips655]

Really amazing piece Brendan although I would have preferred a less wobbly tone to better hear tones harmony. Next album should be really interesting though; this looks a terrific tuning

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you, Robin!

[@dybomusic4207]

This sounds strange but interesting! I subscribe and check it out a little bit more! 👌😎🎸

[@mil3ston3s]

what's the highest fret you can comfortably still do most positions at with this neck?

[@ghifardebs6728]

wooow this is awesome

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

thank you!!

[@josebarragansabio9622]

man, you're an inspiration! How playable do you find it with 27 frets per octave? I'm considering fretting a guitar I'm finishing in 31edo, which is about the same size, but I get scared when I look at the numbers.

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

Thank you! I find it very playable, though I have had to work on getting my fretting more precise, and often your finger will be over 2 frets rather than fitting in between. It takes some getting used to, but it's not that bad. I know there are a handful of 31 players out there and I haven't heard any complaints on it's playability. Have you seen Stephen James Taylor's 31 guitar video?

[@josebarragansabio9622]

@@BrendanByrnesMusic thank you very much, you have seriously encouraged me! Also, a few weeks ago I had a chance to visit a greek luthier and try a saz with very thin tied frets, which I suspect might make everything much easier. And in the worst case, you can untie them. Also, I am into "smaller" tunings, like neutral thirds (9/31) , slendro (6/31), etc... which I suspect will make orientation much easier than fourths (13 steps, no less) at the price of sacrificing range. I have seen Stephen James Taylor playing his 31et guitar, but your impros and spacy etudes are much more inspiring and similar to the use I'd like to give it.

[@epiphoney]

Do you use a software or web tool to find near-just chords in an edo?

[@sus-kupp]

Calculator

[@osipher6637]

Tabs soon? LOL

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

They already exist! kzbin.info/www/bejne/gp7PY5acf7xsh6s

[@stigsundstrom6305]

gott att lyssna på

[@Nae_Ayy]

I've been wondering this for a while, how do you find the closest JI ratio to a given interval? do you have a tool for it, or are you just decent at math?

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

I rely on the xen wiki for this, I'd be lost without it

[@Nae_Ayy]

@@BrendanByrnesMusic makes sense to me, thanks for the quick response

[@Fire_Axus]

3edo cubed

[@lezael4126]

Noice

[@SkeeterMcBeater]

Why not just play fretless?

[@BrendanByrnesMusic]

It would be extremely difficult (at least for me) to accurately play in 27 EDO with a fretless. I also don't think they work that well for complex chords. I used to have a fretless, but found it better for single lines, dyads, and maybe triads.

[@TjByers369]

Perhaps a fretless bass would make more sense for microtonal music than a fretless guitar? Just paint different color lines on the fretboard for both 22 & 27. Probably won't be able to play open strings.