Braid and The Witness Creator, Jonathan Blow | The AIAS Game Maker's Notebook Podcast

(Originally released May 9, 2021 on podcast services)
For the latest episodes of the GMN Podcast, find us on your podcast app of choice or at: www.interactive.org/Interview...
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Ted Price chats with Jonathan Blow about the personal nature of game development; the intricacies of puzzle design and what it means to players; creating his own programming language; ways the games industry can improve moving forward; and what's next on the horizon for him and Thekla.
Jonathan Blow is an independent game designer and programmer, most notable for creating Braid and The Witness.
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[@briandecker8403]

This is the best Jon Blow interview I've ever heard - because the interviewer let's Jon do his thing but also seizes on the key points and reels him back in.

[@GamesEngineer]

I'm mulling over the "ambition problem" that Mr. Blow correctly diagnoses. I feel like we still don't fully utilize the power of interactivity. Occasionally, we see some glimpses of that power, but those sightings are rare. Here's one positive example: after completing The Last of Us: Part 2, I was psychologically transformed for the better. And the game accomplished that life-altering feat in a way that no passive media can do. TLoU2 leverages the nature of interactivity to create a deep internal conflict in the player's mind. For many players, that conflict is ultimately resolved through extensive introspection of one's emotional state. And for me, that introspection resulted in heightened empathy. I don't want every video game to be life-altering, but this feels like an opportunity that is worthy of exploring ambitiously.

[@lastburning]

I thought TLoU2 was just a basic revenge story?

[@GamesEngineer]

​@@lastburning There's a lot more to TLoU2 than just a revenge story, especially at a meta level. The player experiences TLoU2''s revenge plot in a unique way that gives rise to real emotions that cannot be truly experienced by passively watching or reading a story. TLoU2 exploits the interactive nature of gameplay to powerfully elicit this specific emotional response in the player. It's masterfully done, and I look forward to future games of equal ambition.

[@ajmalrizni3586]

@@GamesEngineer I would argue that those emotions that TLOU2 evokes through gameplay are the same ones games have been evoking for decades. Maybe the high fidelity of the violence makes it feel more intense than playing Hotline Miami, but there's nothing truly innovative in the interactive component of the game.

[@GamesEngineer]

@@ajmalrizni3586 High fidelity does feel like a vital ingredient for proper character development. So, I suppose the "innovation" of TLoU2's is how well it immerses the player into the lives of two playable characters that attempt to kill each other (for revenge), and how it reliably evokes a deep internal conflict within the player; wanting to simultaneously kill and protect both characters. Although this is not entirely unique among video games, it is very uncommon to play both sides of a personal conflict with incredibly well-developed characters, especially where there are no heroes or villains. It's much more common to just play one side (protagonist versus antagonist), or play both sides of a conflict among impersonal groups/teams. In my opinion, the emotions that TLoU2 evokes are distinctly different (in both kind and magnitude) from what almost all other games elicit. I have not played Hotline Miami, but I don't see it being comparable. Even though you do play as both "Jacket" and "Biker" in Hotline Miami, it's not really the same dynamic as playing both Ellie and Abby in TLoU2.

[@Spiderboydk]

@@GamesEngineer Generally speaking (since I haven't played TLOU2) I think story is something that games don't do particularly well compared to other forms of media. In my experience when people praise story-based games, it's usually based on things, that books and (especially) movies do better than games. The ubiquitous practice of regularly interrupting gameplay for delivering story beats through a cutscene is an inferior imitation of movies and therefore necessarily a concession that movies do visual stories better than games. This can't be any different, because telling a story is in conflict with player agency.

[@u9vata]

At 40:46: that kind of matrix is tottally visible in old Klik&Play event editor haha

[@sergesolkatt]

HARDCORE

[@nintendude794]

No face cams?

[@Heyoka86]

His simping for Musk and ancap vibes aside, he is one of the most brilliant game designers alive. I'm proud to have realized by myself that The Witness is an 'epiphany simulator'.

[@latinoce]

if you think jon has ancap vibes then you’re seriously mistaken