Breaking Industry News! Seagull to limit the ST19 Movement!

We just got some news that I'm sure you'll want to check out! After decades of providing the ST19 movement to the watch market, Seagull is making a very large change to the way they distribute the movement, and for sure it will affect your favorite brands.
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[@Mile-long-list]

They hired a swiss accountant 😅

[@timgenter1264]

Interesting move....and one I think will backfire. They are NOT a premium movement company, they are a generic bulk low-end maker. You are right, others will rush to fill the void. My prediction is that if they ever actually do this, it will be less than a year and they will revert back to the current system.

[@karlsenula9495]

Even within China there will likely be knock off movements - in time. I am sure there are also schematics available somewhere online. After all there are clones of pretty much ALL more expensive movements.

[@karlsenula9495]

Do we have an idea when current stocks might be exhausted and prices start to climb?

[@rtime4269]

Nah you can't just wake up and invent a new reliable chronograph movement. Good move on their part.

[@ytfeelslikenorthkorea]

I agree - market doesn't like vacuum. Either someone else steps up and created 99% clone of that movement, or people will just get annoyed and start boycotting the brand. I hate when companies thing they can pull whatever d!ck move because they feel irreplaceable.

[@ailestriker9888]

@@rtime4269Swatch thought the same thing. So Ronda and sellita “borrowed” instead. The venus-based ST19 movement can and WILL be cloned

[@danielmercado9035]

It might be back to quartz chronos for some micro brands. I personally don't have a mechanical chrono, I'm fine with quartz for that complication.

[@Nefville]

I have several mechaquartz chronos and I love them. Mechanical chronographs are all very thick, at least with quartz you get a more wearable watch.

[@TheGrenadier97]

Me too. I never absolutely trusted the ST19, nor ever needed chronographs to justify a more expensive (and reliable?) movement. For a chronograph, quartz is better for me. I just hope that calibers with solar, sweep seconds and without useless 24-hour subdials will become more common.

[@BosworthMcG]

For sure. A seagull 1963 clone with a reliable mechaquartz movement would be awesome.

[@orangeyellow-me1pz]

Really? My watch is pretty small and it is using the movement mentioned in the video. In fact, I think it's absolutely tiny. Have you ever held one?

[@JM-gy6zb]

It bugs me that so many (nearly all) of the quartz chronos have a 60 minute sub dial. Most (nearly all) mechanical chronos have a 30 minute sub dial. On a small sub dial 30 minutes makes a lot more sense from a legibility standpoint.

[@cossack814]

Thanks for the update Marc. Always quality content. You’re an intelligent man.

[@jlore6344]

So he says :) I never wanted a Seagull movement before but now that we hear we cannot have one, I want one!!! Thanks Marc.

[@caktaylor]

Your last point was my first thought. Like the ETA 2824, I would think any patents covering the ST-19 expired a long time ago. If there is enough demand, we may see a wave of clones from Peacock, Hangzhou, and other movement makers.

[@orangeyellow-me1pz]

That's a good point. I think it's the same thing that happened with ETA. Ronda and Selita took their spot.

[@shj2000]

I liked your conclusion: no FOMO.

[@bigdreams5554]

Yes but I can't help but feel a strong case of FOMO!! Been wanting one for a while ... Oh well

[@diogenes1670]

There would be more than meets the eye in Chinese business, they likely have a Chinese reseller broker (perhaps a former manager) friend on good terms with people making key decisions to buy 10,000 who in turn handle sales and will resell to the smaller dealers. Western buyer or smaller Chinese buyer would be cash up front and little bargaining power. Hopefully the larger buyer will demand better quality control.

[@RandyBarlow-fn8lo]

The Chinese acquired the machinery to make this movement from Venus way back in the 1960's. So it's my guess that it's finally starting to wear out and they have to limit production. We saw a similar thing happen with the Russian chronographs a few years ago.

[@adventureswithtime]

The minimum quantity of 10K seems to say they don't want to manufacture the movement unless they know they can sell all that they make. The cost of keeping inventory (or making just a few hundred here and there for small brands) might not be economically viable for them. Could they be coming out with a replacement movement? What does this mean for servicing these movements.

[@johnjones928]

The movement is much more affordable to replace than it is to repair unless it's in an expensive micro-brand piece. If you have something like a Sugess just buy another one.

[@LS1007]

I only have one watch with a Seagull movement. I haven’t had any issues with it. Thanks for the info Marc. Love your shirt. Have a great weekend! 🙏🏼

[@seanmiller7187]

Wonder what Studio Underdog is going to do.

[@TheGrenadier97]

And Lorier, and many others. I suppose they'll team up and divide the bulk amongst themselves, or see if someone else in China will copy the Venus-ST19.

[@bobmclennan1727]

I'm glad I got my watermelon when I did.

[@joshuacoats-evenhouse9771]

​Me too. I wonder if some micros will consolidate on paper to go in as a group on a 10k unit order.

[@thegorn]

He will come up with some other gimmick watch 😂

[@f.kieranfinney457]

@@TheGrenadier97 they won’t be able to, with Seagull requiring the purchase from a single brand. They could consolidate under one banner but then they’re not independent micro-brands!

[@slateization]

This is tragic! I’ve really enjoyed moving from modding Seikos to modding ST1901s. Looks like I’ll have to stock up on a couple of movements to bridge the gap until someone else starts making them

[@handsomewong2469]

I am glad that I have these movement as the price will be up soon

[@user-sm6pr7ip6q]

Hi Marc, It was funny to see you saluting ! I have bought at least 12 watches from u over the past 3 years, 2 Hemel air foil, at least 4 red star, a few Seiko , anyhow, I hope I am not in the algorithm of being cancelled .

[@islandwatch]

Thanks!!!!!

[@drbobsnightmare2521]

Interesting news Marc. I recently saw a seagull movement watch released with a solid platinum case. My first thought was, "who's going to buy this?". Something strange is a foot.

[@islandwatch]

Seagull makes some amazing watches

[@PaulewingStHelens]

I’ve got a seagull 1963, the bronze limited edition. Well you can call it limited if you want. Soon after they brought out another version but with lume on. I don’t doubt someone else will fill the market and I hope they do. This is a bit like Seiko saying we’re no longer supplying NH35 movements unless you buy the whole shop. I think it’s a marketing ploy.

[@slateization]

Ah fuck. Prices on AliEx and EBay are already up $20-40 from last week!!

[@Bob_Smith19]

Not really a loss IMO. Quartz chronos are more reliable than anything Seagul puts out. I don’t subscribe to “it has to be a mechanical movement”. I realize China makes a ton of movements. But the ones sold to the world as a Chinese movement have been sub par.

[@jerryjensen6430]

I have one and it’s been my most accurate automatic watch.

[@acratone8300]

Me too !

[@julienfroidevaux1143]

Accurate , tho durable ?????

[@jerryjensen6430]

@@julienfroidevaux1143 guess it depends on how much you were/ wind it. I have seen posts warning about not using the chronograph a lot. I wear several watches so none get a lot if use except my G Shocks, even my analog G shocks are not as durable as digital G Shocks.

[@rubenk6]

I bet Studio Underd0g will have to pivot. What a bummer, I can’t see how this benefits Seagull.

[@outcastkatsuki]

Already are... looks like the model launching tomorrow is Selitta SW510 based.

[@chuckcharles5963]

Peacock will happily sell you a 4130 clone and it’s even automatic. The quality is great, if it’s the same movement Noob used to put into its Daytonas.

[@MichaelG1986]

Somewhat surprising news. It will be interesting how other Chinese movement manufacturers respond and how it affects the Chinese Aliexpress watch brands and microbrands.

[@JackSalemiJr]

Thanks for the update Marc!

[@NV.O-p8x]

Mark is our window into what’s happening behind the curtains :))))

[@iain772]

Perhaps this is why Lorier are moving to the NE88?

[@nikolaikrustev1159]

I got a Baltic chrono with that movement more out of fascination and curiosity, but I am hoping to eventually graduate to a proper swiss chrono with a 7750. 10 k min order might seem a lot but consider that these Chinese movements are in effect un-serviceable on (cost grounds) and a portion of the order should be reserved for covering RMAs . My own watch broke after just 3 days and had to be replaced (Baltic were great) but now with my curiosity satisfied I don't plan on getting another ST 19 in the future.

[@PharaohMan007]

I live in Shanghai and have seen pics of the inside of the Shanghai watch factory which I think is Peacock. All swiss machinery.

[@sinjinadams2862]

Well this is very surprising news. I own 6 watches with this movement and like them very much. It's definitely a very beautiful movement to look at. I didn't really plan on buying any more watches with this movement so I guess I'm good. 😊😊

[@davecypress]

The salute 🫡

[@DaveSchultzXXL]

Do recommend buying the movement now to stock up on parts?

[@ivanmejia6843]

Seagull just shot themselves in the foot with this move.

[@anglocon]

Why … it’s the only really affordable chronograph movement … perhaps they just want to see them in official seagulls makes more money

[@stevemc75]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[@orangeyellow-me1pz]

​​@@stevemc75no, he might be onto something. As someone else pointed out, the patents for this movement expired. What's to stop other Chinese brands from just aping the movement if there is a great demand?

[@gilbertoflores7397]

​@@orangeyellow-me1pz they're not in great demand, they're a bit of a gimmick. It's nice to be able to buy a mechanical chronograph for under a 1000 dollars, because most of those types of movements are only in higher end watches. The design for the watches are really old and outdated, and have a very high failure rate too. So if you want one, it's pretty much just a gimmick piece, because it fills some checkbox you'd have as an enthusiast. However, most of the watches it's found in, are meh most of the time.

[@hitnrun9000]

i have the bridgehampton and thoroughly enjoy it. the possible lack of movements going forward will be rough if the movement fails in mine down the road. as i understand it they are not typically repaired due to difficulty. not sure how true that is 🤷

[@samnova450]

Thanks for the update on this major change.

[@davect01]

That's gonna shake things up big time

[@commandZee]

I personally like Seiko's quartz and meca-quartz chrono movements.

[@desertdwellerpete]

Great

[@aaronswatches]

They must have a replacement in the works. It’s like they are saying we really don’t want to make them anymore but we’ll do it if you order a truckload

[@johnswick7108]

I heard this a few weeks ago. This is a big reason I bought the Bridgehampton last week.

[@kylebarns]

Thanks Marc. Appreciate the update

[@islandwatch]

No problem 👍

[@SQueme]

0:50 i'm an individual and will not buy 10000 ST19 😂 ♻ but, i'm still buying them as non-working, for parts or repair 🇫🇷 (sugess, ...) ♻ 4:35 between the venus and the st19 ... differences at least in the frequency (balance and escape are at least different), several springs (click spring, setting lever spring and not screw ...)

[@coffeeisgood102]

I don’t know how to take this info. I have several watches with Seagull movements. I find them to be very reliable and accurate as well as affordable.

[@S-Ltd1000]

Now that they are limiting availability maybe they can improve the quality because my experience with this movement wasn't a good one.☹️

[@orangeyellow-me1pz]

Mine is. Love mine.

[@Adrian_3006]

Some business will buy bulk lots and then on sell to microbrands and clip the ticket, or some companies may even reach out to others and join forces so to speak and get their movements that way!? Innovation 🤔😉. There's always a way around this kind of thing!

[@islandwatch]

Read the contact. It's for use by one nrand only.

[@islandwatch]

*brand

[@Adrian_3006]

@@islandwatch oh ok 🤔😲

[@Rares.E]

Thank you!

[@paulmcmasters991]

Maybe they are trying to drive out all the other Chinese companies that are manufacturing Seagull-powered 1963s and similar chronographs.

[@SoCalWatchReviews]

Thanks for the info Marc 👏

[@islandwatch]

You bet!

[@rc7016]

So whats left that is cheap? The Peacock movement and next price point the Seiko NE88 movement. Hard to find a decent priced chrono with the Seiko movement. As Mark pointed out, Hemel's entire chrono line is going to be gone in short order.

[@timrodriguez1]

Nice shirt...lol I love aviation, and that's a cool shirt. 🤘🤠

[@btab5332]

Not a big loss. Had a watch with this movement was very inaccurate and it lasted less than a year. Had a friend who had one and it lasted little more than a year. And good luck getting them serviced

[@milqn4o]

This.

[@mlady5459]

I have to wonder how this will impact larger Chinese watch makers like red star sugess etc.

[@julienfroidevaux1143]

I just wanna know if these things hold up over time .

[@cyberbillp]

I think they are doing this to squeeze out low volume competition. You can be sure chinese micro brands will still get movements.

[@Nefville]

The good thing about China is someone else going to take their place and make that same movement. Seagull might be the biggest but they are not the only movement maker there. And how long has it been, brands like Damasko are still finding ETA 2824s, I am sure there are far more STs floating around out there, I don't expect its going to affect anyone anytime soon.

[@graycochran2055]

Glad I picked one up last year

[@eugenethomas4647]

Micros need to pool their money and buy them together. Put in a bulk order that then gets separated and distributed to multiple different micros.

[@albertsylvester2981]

THANKS FOR THE UPDATE

[@gregtolley3455]

Peacock is putting out an eta 7750 clone so I'm sure we'll see those.

[@orangeyellow-me1pz]

Very nice

[@whywishing]

peacock and sea gull are now subsidiaries of the same company

[@AMAMBT]

i see that independent micro brands will co operate and buy the bulk then each gets his share .

[@Pellidon]

My Timex MK1 Mechanical has one I think. It's broken so getting it fixed is problematic now I guess.

[@WalterDavidRiffmon]

Will this make serviceing the existing watches with these movements more difficult?

[@IgorBagayev]

Good time for Seiko to release their solar chrono movement

[@mjokffsgfjs]

Wow, so many market analysts here. KZbin comments is a headhunters' heaven.

[@Nefville]

Couldn't agree more, no one should ever be allowed to speculate about anything ever unless they are a first hand party to the subject. I don't want to read any comments here unless its from a Seagull executive (with tenure) who's also a watchmaker, a historian and plans to start a microbrand focusing solely on Seagull mechanical chronograph movements. If that person isn't commenting and others are, well shame on them!

[@eyeheartsushi2212]

LOL

[@Conundrum191]

Oof...that's an onion in the ointment. I do wonder if that also is why a semi official "1963 international edition" has popped up as well. Currently my only ST19 watch is a Strela Cosmos.

[@Lee-pf2uv]

I don’t know how Seagull sell to manufacturers now but if the don’t use distributors surely this is a move for that. Distribution companies will buy in 10,000 units plus and on sell to the manufacturers in lower quantities. Its how most sales channels work, not sure if the watch component industry already do it that way. If not surely its just a move to that

[@islandwatch]

So you didn't watch the whole thing.

[@goatrope2946]

Seagull will not allow a distribution channel. They will only sell to manufacturer brands that commit to using the ST19 in their production. How they enforce that requirement, I don't know.

[@Kamala__Harriis]

Somebody will start a career as a reseller

[@WaterJake]

Could be a good opportunity for Peacock to get their automatic chronograph out there. As far as I understand it, they are pretty thin, thanks to being based off of Daytona movements. No idea about the quality

[@UVB76theBoozer]

You need to know something. Seagull and peacock are now owned by the same group of people.

[@adk7962]

Yeah… I mean there are not that many companies out there that can purchase all those movements in those quantities, and those companies all have their own movements…. Oh well. Good luck to them!

[@islandwatch]

Agreed

[@scottsj4625]

The ST19 movement has been around since the 1940s by a Swiss company and I am not sure exactly. The Chinese bought it to make their own watches. They were selling the Segul 1963 watches for less than 160 dollars. I did not buy one as I hate the Chinese communist star on it. I have seen them as low as 120 dollars on a sale on Aliexpress. They are pretty much a watch if it breaks trash it and buy another one as the cost to repair will be much more than the price of a new one.

[@ndupontnet]

Somebody will just place a 10k order and resell in smaller lots with a premium

[@chronocommander007]

I guess we will still be able to buy Seagull watches with ST19 movements. Maybe Seagull will buy up Sugess and some other brands and keep troopering on with the same models.

[@f.kieranfinney457]

Anyone else shocked at the suggestion that these movements are $80? Lot more $$$ than I expected.

[@Sicarius888]

I guess not many people wanted to overpay a few times more for the same watch compared to Ali red stars and Sugess just to get "original Seagull" if they decided to block competition. Maybe guys who make PT5000 will do decent clone of chrono or even add hacking.

[@americanpaisareturns9051]

I like that shirt 😂👍🏽

[@islandwatch]

Me too, 😂

[@johnnyj.817]

I'm gonna guess there's going to be some Chinese watchmaking companies going to break into movement brokers business... no way Sea-gull is going to serialize each mvt. so they can track them.

[@j.walker7990]

Or combine PO in coalition for more buying power

[@islandwatch]

Read the white sheet I put in the video. For use by one brand only.

[@planecrashcorner7283]

How are they going to stop people from selling the movements?

[@targaflorio3239]

Very interesting.

[@islandwatch]

Glad you think so!

[@josephgriffin1065]

Off topic, love the t shirt

[@islandwatch]

Thx

[@alessandrozuffi5068]

Wow...time to get another one right now while we can then...makes not much sense to me tho.

[@Boyahda]

Sounds like an L on their part but we'll see.

[@islandwatch]

We shall

[@GreenPizza577]

My main question is quality. Regardless of the product I always consider when a product is discontinued, will the product be of lesser quality that will take its place. This designed obsolescence if you will. But watching the video may not be the case. On a tangent Its frustrating to think of china the land where everything is made, from the good and the bad but the less western influence the less quality it has. I would love to see the day that china could make a watch with there top manufacturers and it could be the pride of Chinas manufacturing and for a good price. With a Chinese name and everything.

[@richardlocke7264]

I LOVE my chrono with this seagull movement. Pick one up while you can

[@soulside]

What’s to keep a broker from making a one time purchase of 10,000 movements and then selling them to all the micro-brands?

[@shinnchoo3724]

Risk. They take on the risk and I can't imagine the profit margin will be generous. If you cannot move enough stock to stay afloat you're pretty much done. Also there's probably others who might give it a go as well. Then it'll be a race to the bottom for customers. Chinese companies are also notorious for dropping prices or making u-turn on policies when they get desperate. If it doesn't work out for them. They can just go "ok we're selling with less/no minimum order again" and you're left holding the bag

[@jeffee1933]

I’ve owned two Seagul movements and both broke in short order. Cost of repair was greater than cost of replacement. Like a a beautiful woman; not worth the hassle

[@cunawarit]

Wow, interesting development. I can see why Seagull would want to do this as a way to position themselves as a more up-market movement maker.

[@smoko321]

I have two watches with this movement. Both are 1963 chronographs, one came from a Dutch seller in the 2010s another came "direct" from a Seagull AD with a QR code for QQ to register, and was supposed to be an official Seagull watch. Both watches will stop running before the power reserve runs out, they keep horrible time, are unreliable and have bad timegrapher readings. Because of this, I have no interest in this movement anyway. It either can't be properly adjusted, or no one is bothering to adjust them properly. I assume as an older movement, it needs more watchmaking skill and time to set up, such as depth of engagement of the chronograph clutching wheel and adjustment of reset parts. I wish someone could guarantee a watch with this movement as being properly set up and reliable, as I love chronographs, I just have not seen this movement function properly to use as a timekeeper. Mark, I am curious your thoughts about this; I understand it's possible I got some lemons but I suspect as an old design it doesn't align with modern production processes and skills.

[@mercster]

Is that a white GSHOCK on your right wrist?

[@karlsenula9495]

Is this essentially a move to make Seagull and their subbrands exclusive users of the now popular ST19?

[@seanpie5481]

So when my 1963 dies I can’t just put in a new movement? Damn. 😢

[@islandwatch]

:(

[@younusimam-thesalamproject6340]

This is a huge shame. It's going to have negative impacts on the microbrand scene. Hemel was doing innovative things with it with the 12 hour tracking.

[@talega1]

WhatEVVVRRRR; let em keep ALL of those sub-par movements......

[@Nalot56]

The reason why the factory increased its minimum order quantity (MOQ) is simply due to something called “scale of economies.” as an industrial manufacturer, the factories stand to make more money off of larger orders. And they would rather use their manufacturing assets for larger orders than for smaller orders. It’s just simple cost benefit analysis for them. Smaller orders actually slowing down the factory and are somewhat prohibitive. It’s a business.

[@Sergeant_Fury]

Makes sense, but why would they care whether or not their movements ended up in just one brand as long as they sold 10,000 units to one buyer? Thus, if Marc and some of his microbrand friends got together and ordered 10k units, why would Seagull care where they ended up?

[@Nalot56]

@@Sergeant_Fury because consolidating multiple orders requires additional administrative and overhead expenses, and also presents additional financial risk when it comes to collecting payment from multiple smaller brands (which are usually more of a credit risk individually). Does that make sense? You’re talking to someone who has done manufacturing in China for over a decade by the way. Please let me know if you have any more questions.

[@ailestriker9888]

I smell st19 clones incoming

[@johnsrabe]

I want one just for the history.

[@islandwatch]

They are on ali-x

[@philjackson3016]

Imagine trying that, I'm a country where the patent system means literally nothing! Wait fort the Chinese clone to come out 🤣🤣

[@azdbuk]

The inter webs say it is state owned, which I knew it was in the beginning, wasn't sure if it still is. If so, don't waste too much time trying to understand business decisions they make. A fools errand, my intl biz friend would say, who worked in Beijing for a few years. "Bat s#%t crazy" was the actual business accountant vernacular she used. I wasn't there, so I cannot verify.

[@scottskillman]

The Sea-Gull reissue has sold out already.

[@salty5402]

Interesting news for sure! The reasons you laid out make sense - and I think Seagull trying to move up market in perception is probably a big reason as you point out.

[@Bob_Smith19]

They will never move up market.

[@salty5402]

@@Bob_Smith19 Understand you opinion, but disagree - they have areas of opportunity in Asia and other regional markets.

[@Anirossa]

Got a seagull movement, much more accurate and with much lower beat error than my seikos(duh), powermatic and miyota movements, the mijotas get close though.

[@ScottNotAvailable]

We need a broker for Bulova Precisionist movements. That movement deserves to be let out of its cage!