Breaks the Rules and Inspired the Defiant: Challenger Class

[@CertifiablyIngame]

Ex Astris Scientia article on the ships of Wolf 359: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359.htm

[@somestormchaseridjitwithwi2024]

Funny how Venom Geek Media says this thing is basically a diplomatic cruiser. His take on it is interesting.

[@u83rj1]

I've been following Ex Astris for a long time now.

[@HylianFox3]

EAS has become my all-time favorite trek site. It just revels in all the nerdy details and isn't afraid to call the series out when it effs up.

[@jacobfoster9185]

This would look great if you delete the nacelles and then add a couple of "defiant" esk ones to the rear underneath.

[@jacobfoster9185]

THANK YOU for not using ai narration !!!

[@dogofwar6769]

It's a pity we didn't see more of these kit bash ships from Wolf 359 in some of the big fleet actions of DS9. You would think more of them would have been put to use during the Dominion War.

[@AxelFuentesMusic]

Unless Starfleet decommissioned most of these kitbashes because they all got their asses kicked by the borg 🤔

[@BobNinjaCat]

@@AxelFuentesMusic Galaxy-class and even Defiant-class vessels do slightly better against the Borg, and anything post-Voyager is likely outfitted with future tech adapted across every fleet. Challenger-class likely didn't get used as often during the Dominion War because materials were being hoarded for repairs and other stuff. These strike me as more exploration vessels with an emphasis on long-term deep-space research than actual warships.

[@thetruth45678]

Not a pity. A blessing.

[@matthewdoyle3628]

@@thetruth45678 I think the Cheyenne and New Orleans Classes would have held up ok if the models were redone for close up shots. They aren't too bad.

[@thetruth45678]

@@matthewdoyle3628 All abominations not fit for production.

[@davidrose8336]

I've never disliked the concept of its design, but lord the asymmetry of the nacelles and pylons drives me insane. Line up the nacelles, bulk up the pylons, get matching deflectors (standard/quantum slipstream) in them, get dual shuttlebays in the back of them, and do whatever to update the rest of the spaceframe. She's a nice small class and deserves some love.

[@GSBarlev]

Yeah, there are ways to do asymmetry well (Book's ship in _Discovery;_ *most* ships in the _Homeworld_ games), but this isn't it. Not knocking the designers-it was a low-effort kitbash-but I'm surprised at the amount of lore that's sprouted up about it.

[@Twitchguy]

I agree just a little more accurate in sizing is the only complaint otherwise I like it

[@tenchraven]

It's explained in the lore, and if your OCD can't manage that... Sucks to be you.

[@Twitchguy]

@@tenchraven oh I’m just saying strictly from a visual perspective it would’ve looked better with a little bit more even spacing but yup the lore does explain it already. But still I think it makes total sense for a ship like this. US navy even has specialized ships just for recon that are fast in a sprint perfect for storms and all sorts of other one offs so totally believable starfleet at the height of its exploration pacifism era would have dedicated specialized ships made from aspects of available equipment too

[@UGNAvalon]

I actually like the asymmetry in a quirky way. 😅 But yes, some tweaks to the design would improve it.

[@TrentonBennett]

I couldn't help but chuckle a lot more than I should have when you said Michael Okuda called it a lollipop. I instantly thought of back to the TNG episode "Arsenal Of Freedom" when Riker talked to the facsimile of Captain Paul Rice saying he was in command of the U.S.S. Lollipop and that it was a fast and good ship lol.

[@dragonclaw4187]

I love that episode

[@janwitkowsky8787]

1st Star Trek episode I ever saw. Few weeks later I saw Search for Spock. Was then hooked.

[@azean84]

Ah, the Lollipop, its a good ship ;-)

[@ShadowStoryteller]

Yeah, just don't trust this guy named Rice. I hear he's a fake.

[@stevencourtney5371]

Was the Lollipops first officer named Shirley?😂

[@ArtistryBranson]

Well played, man, well played.

[@sheilaolfieway1885]

looks like a double lollipop to me if you hold it by the saucer. or maybea triple popsicle

[@ShanenWay]

Sweet

[@TobyDeshane]

Honestly, this one took me by surprise. Always thought this looked silly, but the invented lore around it is actually pretty damned good. I... I don't hate it anymore?! :D

[@somestormchaseridjitwithwi2024]

Lords of Kobol do I love these ship breakdowns. Like, FINALLY someone is doing them! And with schemarics to boot! 😁😁😁

[@Tyr666Thor]

i know a lot of people dislike these Wolf 359 kitbashes but I find them charming. I think their imperfect and rushed origin that was more concerned with obvious distance silhouttes than pleseing aesthetics leds them a really unique style within Starfleet fictional design history. I also just find what people do on a limited budget and within design constraints more interesting than what someone does with unlimited time, freedom and money.

[@dragonknightleader1]

It would actually make sense in-universe procurement-wise and make the Galaxy project a success. Don't have the parts to build full Galaxies, but lots of spare parts lying around? Fuse them together to serve as modern (in 2360s) frigates and corvettes. It means the new nacelle design and deflector dishes are solid, proven technologies even when the Galaxy-class itself is questionable in efficacy.

[@HylianFox3]

The Wolf 359 are actually some of my favorite ships in the entire series. It's the DS9 kitbashes that are ass-ugly. Other than the Centaur.

[@rinoz47]

To me these always felt like secondary and auxiliary class, cobbled together for the w359 fleet. The kind of ships where red alerts are annual events

[@thetruth45678]

I guess you also find it charming when babies wipe their poo on the wall. SMH 😔

[@adamlytle2615]

I like some of them a lot and at the very least I think it would have been good to establish a bigger presence for the Galaxy class aesthetic beyond just the Galaxy and Nebula. Show that Starfleet used this design language for a while, and not just on enormous big boy ships.

[@furnacebay5305]

The Wolf 359 ships and the Galaxy program were such a rich source of cool ships and lore. I wonder if we will ever get a moment like that again in Star Trek. I fear that the bold story telling moves of the past are getting lost in the business of today’s film and tv industry and the proliferation of new ways to consume media. Here is to hoping for those big, bold stories and fascinating lore to come back sometime soon. I absolutely love this channel and use the ship breakdowns and lore videos for research for my job. That’s a long story as to how and why- but suffice it to say, when you need to understand how designers and writers intend a certain detail of a ship to have a certain impact, when you need that information to formulate your own design concepts for non sci-fi things but real applications, this channel is immensely useful.

[@apotheases]

They could've easily added additional phaser banks on top and bottom of those nacelles during the dominion war. Similar to the Galaxy class variants seen in DS9. That would cover those blind spots.

[@TheSilverPhoenix100]

Or shield emmiters as it always seems like if the nacelles took a hit the ship quickly went boom

[@casbot71]

How did Starfleet explain the name of the *USS Red Baron* to non-humans? "Well... you see in our first planetary war he was a hero to the Germans..." _"The xenophobic genocidal dictatorship that set up concentr....?"_ "No no, that was the second planetary war, which started two decades later." _"Okay, got that. So why was he called the Red Baron, does it have anything to do with the colour of your circulatory fluid?"_

[@CrazyNights1015]

This was a design that grew in me really quickly. Very original and I like the lore that was created for it.

[@christopherg2347]

Breaks the rules? I would say it _challenges_ the rules.

[@Gunnar001]

Best looking era of Starfleet vessels. Shame we never saw more of them.

[@Dogbertious]

Always been a fan of the design. Regarding the blindspots, my headcanon was that in the leadup to the Dominion War the Challengers would've received the same nacelle-mounted phaser strips seen on the wartime Galaxy class (USS Venture having these on the tops of her nacelles), giving them considerably improved firing arcs. I also imagined them acting as squadron flagships for 'light' formations, but equally like the slightly sneaky/going where no-one else can go mission profile too.

[@thomasmuennich2680]

Love your work 🖖

[@davfree9732]

One thing about the Defiant class. If you look at the ships from the underside or rear you'll see the ship is concave, in that the hull rises up, providing LOS between the nacelles. From the sides, and front on the nose gives the impression of hull blocking LOS between the nacelles. Granted the nacelles are armored and interference would be higher as a result, but the design incorporated LOS potential that would limit the need for these repeaters.

[@DanBen07]

Good videos you've been doing recently on these starfleet ships!

[@dsb227]

I think the design, nice to hear the story about it!

[@Michka1001]

It's a shame we didn't see more of the Challanger, and it's a shame it didn't hang around. It's really a beautiful design 😍 Has an amazing looking profile too

[@feralprocessor9853]

Right off the bat, litteral overview of NCC-57580.

[@thepropagandastudiosbrigs0927]

nice! Although I last read up that the Challenger was an excellent diplomatic vessel. I'm waiting for a video on the Akula class. This fills the void.

[@samuelthompson4770]

I'm a big trek fan but your channel is my education of my of knowledge keep it up my friend😁😎🤗

[@Zeithri]

It's close to one of my favorite ships, the Akula Class of TOS Era. I especially love the STO re-design of the 'modern era',I want it but not really willing to buy it yet. I just got the Titan Science Destroyer after all.. Also with the advent of phaser strips, that ship has no blindspot unless it's a really tinyship that can litterary hide ontop of a nacelle. You are able to bend the beams to cover the nacelles easily. That's why I have a certain disdain for phaser strips. It's the most sci-fi of sci-fi weapons. You'd think I would like that but... It's something silly about having the nacelles fire phasers...

[@Talon19]

Fantastic ship video! It looks so sleek. The asymmetry of most Star fleet ships has always bugged me. The challenger class looks like a step in the right direction and most likely featured symmetrical pylons and nacelles in later production ships.

[@timjerrom7173]

Really like the Challenger Class, cheers CI.

[@HexAyed]

I had no idea the Challenger is in STO, I'm gonna try and get it next I play. It's like the spiritual successor to one of my favourite ship classes, the TMP era Apollo/Akula

[@dustind3960]

Why does challenger class engingeering section look like flatten and sliggt wider then ambassador class engineering hual?

[@Tank16365]

I've never seen this before, I thought it was just a junked out Galaxy. I like it!

[@philliphall1563]

Love this little ship, and absolutely love the refitted version. This little ship fits so well into my head cannon for my tactical captains on STO as their upgraded ships after the Miranda.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I always quite liked the Challenger class. Perhaps difficult to film flattering angles, but I like the idea.

[@pcheintz7264]

It occurs to me there actually is technically at least one more Galaxy Project design from sort of canon, and around 2 more Trek fan film productions, - The Galaxy-X from All Good things (sometimes called Devron or Entente Class), - The Fan series Hidden Frontier had one ship that was a Galaxy class variant with instead of a third warp nacelle had a Nebula Combat dome . I cannot recall the class name though, it only had brief showings IIRC. - The Fan series Odyssey (A Hidden Frontier Sequel/Spinoff) that had a modified Phalanx class called Allegiance class that only real difference was differing nacelles.

[@pcheintz7264]

Well... I've been told just after posting the above that the Galaxy-X does not count since it would be considered a refit of an existing class, and you probably would not want to get into fan film classes... as there is no canon lore related to them at all...

[@Jonny.B.evel123]

There is a kind of another ship similar to the galaxy project but I’m not sure if you reviewed it it’s called the Freedom class also have you done the galaxy x refit from all good things?

[@francescozenocchini4428]

Will you eventually doing a video about other 22nd century starships like the Daedalus class or Einstein class?

[@alanmcmillian]

Could you do a video on the overall construction time for production model starships? It occurs to me that, while perfecting the tech necessary for a prototype can take time, given how many star ships are built, how much space has to be patrolled or traversed or protected, and how quickly the technology improves, a ship has to be put together extremely quickly.

[@ptah956]

If I had my way, the Equinox would have been a Challenger Class

[@Trekpanther]

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have a list of the music you use in the background? I like some of the pieces you selected.

[@Dan19870]

What music is being played during the Summary?

[@TroySpencer-l5b]

I've always liked the look of this ship class. They could have added some more weapons on it. Thanks for another awesome video!

[@davidjenkins1814]

It seems that Starfleet already figured out how to do non-line of sight nacelles with the Akula class.

[@adamlytle2615]

Even the Phoenix in First Contact did not have line of sight. And then as far as other canon ships go, I don't think the TMP era Sydney class has line of sight either.

[@andreasvogler1875]

This ship almost has more escape pods than crew quarters.

[@rogue265]

It gives you an idea of how successful the the designers thought it would be

[@Monody512]

I've always assumed ships with no nacelle line of sight like this connected the subspace fields together in a ring shape.

[@seanwolslau-holdren6731]

The one thing I appreciate about the Challenger Class is that it gave us the Atlantis Class.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

According to issue #114 of the Star Trek: The Official Starships Collection, the Challenger-class an approximate length of 390 meters, an approximate crew of 300, and a top speed of warp 9.6.

[@DanBen07]

Good video.

[@ryxtan]

I'd love to see a similar ship layout with a Vulkan-style ring drive

[@richardstone5552]

Cool thanks

[@DanielSolis]

Ah, so it was the icebreaker of the fleet. Neat.

[@harrygariss2528]

Have you done a video of Discovery

[@krzosu]

So... where does it have the navigational deflector ? :D because it doesn't seem to have any - and that would mean that any particle of dust would leave a fist sized hole in the hull if it ever tried to go to warp :P For eg - the defiant despite also having its nacelles tucked in a manner they didnt saw each other - it still had a navigational deflector on the bow... :P

[@krosossgamer]

When are we going to see an episode on the Narendra class?

[@elisekehle8520]

so cool, but i can never love Federation starships without a deflector dish. My little sensor princess Nova even has two!

[@randybentley2633]

Given the mad dash to improve the offensive & defensive capabilities of the fleet, it's surprising that they didn't USS Venture the nacelles of this class. It would've turned this class into a pocket powerhouse.

[@EmpyreanFrost]

2nd Best looking ship from that Battle.

[@dougkeyes4406]

Where is its main deflector?

[@joshk96]

I used to not like it but then I painted a 3d printed one and it grew on me

[@anonymousrex5207]

I feel like we need to add the Austin Powers clip in here: "it looks like a big..."

[@gatetrek2004]

I actually like this ship design, the only thing that bothers me is the slight offset of the top/bottom nacelle.

[@MORE1500]

Space environmentalists discovered that the damage done to subspace was only temporary and the subspace field eventually healed itself.

[@whirledpeaz5758]

Was the USS Challenger that Geordi LaForge later commanded the namesake of this class?

[@rvaughan74]

Nope it was a Galaxy Class ship.

[@sheilaolfieway1885]

wish i could find this in Star trek online.

[@syedhassaanmujtababokhari6199]

Wasn't the USS Buran Captained by Captain Lorca

[@itzdcx]

I really wished they could make a Star trek game with Unreal engine 5 ☹️

[@derks0]

good stuff, top tier youtube

[@Eons381]

1:39 Lollipop you say ???. And you say your maturity is being tested???. Well luckily I have none of that Where you see a Lollipop I see a ribbed condom (btw is that one of the worse analogies you were referring to ???.) But all jokes aside its still one of the cooler classes to come from project Galaxy I I'm being anywhere close to honest. Project Galaxy did way more than give is a fleet of Cool ship designs it delebritly deleted much of the lore or gave us the Chance to fill in the blanks ourselves wich is a rare opportunity in star trek most of the time 🎉🎉🎉🎉 Love this video ❤❤❤

[@Kian2002]

Graceful design in terms of its utility while not a complete departure from the normative ship profile.

[@adamlytle2615]

The lack of a "line of sight" doesn't seem like such a big hurdle. After all, the very first human made warp vessel, the Phoenix, did not have line of sight. Also, the TMP era Sydney class doesn't have line of sight? Nor does the Nebula class. The bigger issue for me with the Challenger is the vertical orientation of the pair. Every other ship we see with two nacelles has a lateral arrangement. So I think *that* is the oddity with this design that we need to justify. Honestly for me I would say it can be a warp field test bed, but rather than testing new ways that nacelles interact with one another, it tests individual nacelle performance. So in essence, the Challenger is a single nacelle vessel that at first carried the second nacelle as a back-up, and then when they pressed it into service, alternated between the two nacelles. In my head canon, most Challenger class ships would be single nacelle ships, and the other mounting point would be for a mission module (top or bottom, wouldn't matter which). But if a Challenger class needed to be deployed on a mission that did not need any particular module but did need higher speeds, the second nacelle could be equipped, allowing the ship to run a nacelle at its limits before switching to the other nacelle. This is a less efficient way of achieving high warp performance (see literally every other ship) but was seen as an adequate comprimise for this particular ship.

[@itzdcx]

I love star trek

[@al_lahn4264]

Where's its deflector dish?

[@davidguerrero3059]

Let's see it in action, apparently I missed this space ship somehow, just a thought..

[@nikvolt8298]

Nice

[@Voltaic_Fire]

I think it would look so much better if the nacelles were on the sides, leading to a much more flat profile, it would have also prevented those pesky phaser blind spots.

[@vasp99]

What might happen to a Borg craft if , instead of dropping out of warp and shooting at it , a ship rammed the cube while in warp ? I'm thinking that might be difficult for any technology to adapt to .

[@jackhosier8498]

So pull a “The Last Jedi”?

[@dragonknightleader1]

It could probably tank it. Borg cubes have lots of mass and redundancies.

[@UGNAvalon]

Wouldn't the warp bubble & deflector array cause the cube to just "be warped out of the way" ? 🤔

[@vasp99]

@@jackhosier8498 the Last Jedi Manoeuvre !

[@vasp99]

@@UGNAvalon Maybe drop out of warp like Picard did in Stargazer ?

[@MrSheckstr]

I mean it wouldn’t take much now a days with a digital copy of the design to keep the original hull chop off the dorsal and ventral nacelles, and mount a pair rising up from the the top port and starboard edges of the spine on 45 degree pylons …. It would look like a galaxy class without a neck but unlike the nebula class the saucer docks where the deflector dish is… Scale it properly and you shave a tier 3-4 ship (galaxy tier 1 nebula tier 2) that is “captained” by a Lt commander in squadrons of 4-6 with a lead ship having a full rank captain as squadron commander with 1 full rank commander as squadron XO and another full rank commander as ship’s “captain”….

[@sulljoh1]

No deflector dish?

[@GraniteGhost778]

You know I almost feel like the Challenger should have used the Vulcan ring. Wouldn't that have been fun? Granted I don't think that existed yet out of universe.

[@elchicko1976]

And how does a one nacelle ship build a warp bubble?

[@dustind3960]

Why was the later developed warp naclle phaser boxed phaser strip arrays not added to challenger class ships after wolf 359?

[@IndieLambda]

The Nacels not being lined up with one another triggers me, why is one just more forward than the other? It looks like it hit something and bent the pilons like someone stubbing their small toe on a door frame in the morning and walking wonky from bruising.

[@wakcedout]

Ya know, sub space damage could be why a certain ancient race developed galaxy spanning teleportation technology. Why worry about not being able to travel at warp when you can literally walk to another planet.

[@TheFaintdreams]

Looks like Giant Ping Pong paddle to me !

[@CrazyManwich]

Is it the challenger class because it looks challenged?

[@jerrybot3000]

Hmm definitely challenged.

[@r.connor9280]

Can we have more nacelle placement experiments In-line, Off Center, Asymmetric, Over Numbered and Internal Bays They don't even have to work very well, just gimme the ugly ducklings

[@somestormchaseridjitwithwi2024]

Yes please. Thats why I love the Niagara and this thing.

[@thetruth45678]

Absolutely not. Imagine going to a 5 star restaurant and ordering a pile of shit with a glass of piss. Like, WTF, mate?

[@r.connor9280]

@@thetruth45678 I just like structured asymmetry and Trek is primed for it using the Roddenberry Rules of Nacelle placements.

[@thetruth45678]

@@r.connor9280 These ships violate nearly every rule he laid out. Basically spitting in his face. I won't have it.

[@r.connor9280]

@@thetruth45678 At least I didn't mention Miss-Sized nacelles

[@svm-kruno6274]

Where's the deflector?

[@CertifiablyIngame]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/q16uk2eDZ8dkd9ksi=3g7dZbPHqf_AI38y&t=394

[@svm-kruno6274]

Thanks! No Idea why I missed it😵‍💫

[@confuseatronica]

if they kept the scale of the parts the same it would make sense- like it was a ship made from Galaxy/Nebula spares. Why would the saucer be exactly the same shape but tiny? What is this, a saucer for ants?

[@salixalba6536]

So many escape pods

[@josephmassaro]

While I like a lot of the single nacelle designs, like the Saladin or Firebrand, I just never like this one. Maybe it's the configuration.

[@RandomTrinidadian]

The Dong-class. 😊

[@kyleandolina273]

Huh, if you have close captioning on, at 6:52 when he's talking about the phasers, Rick says "6 type 8 phaser arrays," but the closed caption shows "6 type-IX phaser arrays." IX is 9, IIX is 8.

[@347Jimmy]

8 is more often written as VIII, I don't think I've ever seen it written as IIX (but it reads fine and makes sense anyway) The CC must not know Roman Numerals very well 😂

[@hanshawks5088]

The challenge is trying to fly it 😂😂😂

[@NewRocJacob]

Didn't Oberth break the line-of-sight rule a century before?

[@jacobredfield1386]

Hello all, early commenter here!

[@AEFisch]

Are you sure the ship isn't sideways with the nacels horizontal and the saucer in the vertical? You actually could have 78 decks. Gravity is artificial and everyone would have a window to look out sideways

[@bryanbond7804]

Don't hate the design but i think it would have been better if the nacells were on the sides of the ship to better sleek its profile.

[@feralprocessor9853]

Okay, then, from the top, it looks like it's shaped like a magnifying glass with a thick handle.

[@ericherndon5628]

No deflector dish? Better not run into any dust out there.

[@SheosMan117]

So this class challenged all conventional warp ideas?

[@posindustries]

Interesting that the USS Red Baron was shaped like a pizza cutter.

[@feralprocessor9853]

SPACE!!!