Bret Easton Ellis on "The Portal", Episode

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Eric sits down with Bret Easton Ellis; the two Gen X’ers graduated from rival high schools in a disaffected 1982 Los Angeles that inspired Ellis’ first novel “Less Than Zero”.
In this conversation, they reflect on LA, Generation X, and the different notions of childhood held by Gen x and Millennials. They then discuss Bret's anti-anti-Trump position and Eric's anti-anti-anti-Trump position having both lost patience with the pro and anti-Trump views found in the Republican and Democratic party positions.

[@TheEpikak]

"You win the game of correct pronunciation...and you lose an election" I think this podcast might have some of my favorite EW quotes thus far

[@2DOLLARRIP]

I agree. This whole podcast is full of quotes that I'm probably going to be stealing from for the rest of my life.

[@marcjorgensen6510]

"People starving to know what happened" Some of the best analysis of the current generational situation we're in and probably the most captivating discussion on the influence of Los Angeles I've heard.

[@rv706]

BEE was just jogging, and passed by and agreed to an interview on the spot

[@TheMongolianMage]

When Joe has a slow week there's Eric with the save 🤗

[@RyanKassel]

Dude, this was the week I learned soooo much about UFOs, tho...

[@thegoodthebadandtheugly579]

Haha so true! We are all watching the same shit here, hellooooo!

[@corykeane]

@@thegoodthebadandtheugly579 tru

[@ArchetypeFTW]

@@thegoodthebadandtheugly579 JRE, The Portal, and The A.I. podcast (Lex Friedman)

[@maxlieberman578]

Him and David Deutsh would be the end of the interenet! :)

[@matthewsnyder674]

"Embedded Growth Obligation" or *EGO* God this pod is so good

[@sadface7457]

This probably worse then unfunded liabilities. And not even a notional story, many of the tech monopolies designed to function as monopolies.

[@andybaldman]

The EGO idea is the biggest thing I've become aware of through Eric and this podcast, and it's changed the way I see the world. Seriously. Podcasting at its best.

[@auroraborealis13579]

This is the first I've heard him drop that gem. Has he used it before? If yes, I'd love to hear the context.

[@MikkelGrumBovin]

yes, it is !

[@jlindsay]

MTV | Pied Piper | Battle for hearts & minds ?--.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHWvp3egYs6HoKs

[@Wilberbeest]

I’ve been a podcast devourer for over a decade, and “The Portal” has been the most consistently good and fascinating in the long form interview genre by a lot. Please keep up the amazing content, Eric! And thank you.

[@danoneill2227]

Was thinking the same thing; Joe Rogan, C-Realm, Rebel Wisdom, Psychedelic salon but this really was one of the most enjoyable and insightful yet. Thanks for the great work!

[@petermorris1898]

only podcast i can think of where, even though the guests are interesting, the host is usually even more so

[@jlindsay]

MTV | Pied Piper | Battle for hearts & minds ?--.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHWvp3egYs6HoKs

[@masonmarcobello3164]

Joe caters to the lowest common denominator, that’s why his show is so big but it doesn’t mean it’s the best. This conversation alone is worth 10 + JRE shows.

[@thomassimmons1950]

I personally found LA to be one of the most soul stultifying places I'd ever been. "I been down and out all over America and ain't no meaner place than LA." Charles Bukowski PS: GREAT INTERVIEW!

[@frillgood]

Portal - one of the best podcasts out there. Thanks a lot Eric. (ツ)

[@r2jit2]

Konrad Wallenrod If you know of a better one, I want to know!

[@intrograted792]

@@r2jit2 Ths Jim Rutt Show is a pretty good one.

[@r2jit2]

@@intrograted792 definitely. I'm a fan. Although I wouldn't say it's better than Eric's. Not that I want to get all rivalrous about it but Eric is such a powerhouse that I can't think of anyone more qualified to ask interesting people interesting questions.

[@ericg3810]

You need to get out more.

[@harryradley]

I feel bad for Bret. Big bro turned up and outshone him pretty badly.

[@sneaks123]

An honor to listen to such a beautiful minds. Thanks Eric for making these podcasts accessible to all, you're opening minds.

[@daddyneedsmilk4562]

"The grandfather and the son have a common enemy, the father." Thinking of this in regard to the 2 generational barriers.

[@ronrobins3513]

53:26 One of the most important moments in this conversation to understand

[@nickbarber9502]

Yes...this was the real "Bingo!" moment for me.True insight.

[@enzowilson345]

I'd love to see you interview Jonathan Haidt

[@steviebob4]

Definitely.

[@mattpiper266]

When’s the universe source code being released ?

[@Gennys]

As long as we get the interview where Jon goes out on a limb or stretches the boundaries of his knowledge. Haidt is great but we never get to hear stuff that wasn't in his books.

[@Main.Account]

One of the best discussions I have heard ever.

[@maistvanjr1]

Around 1 hour and 33 minutes, Bret hits the nail on the head: the post-gen-X desire to cancel anything unsettling is a function of lack of empathy, which itself is nurtured by no longer reading literature (one of the best ways to step deeply into other peoples' shoes).

[@afterthesmash]

It's happened before that I've watched a podcast where the host and the guest share a deep cultural / generational connection, and you always get quite a difference ambiance in the room than when the host has a regular guest. There's a kind of shorthand that's very enjoyable.

[@alexsabbatini8172]

Eric - if you're reading this - I just want to say - I look forward to when the Portal episodes come out - keep it up - you're right @"the millenials are listening"

[@raifthemad]

Thank you, you're in a world of your own when it comes to interesting conversations on this platform, as far as I'm concerned.

[@Rosa41450]

It’s so refreshing to hear Erics conversations. It really has a relaxing effect on me.

[@ThePdeHav]

I was there with you guys. Split from London at 17 for LA. Ended up sharing an apartment with Lux and Ivy from The Cramps. Spent my time going to The Whiskey ( saw X a bunch of times there ) snorted my body weight in coke and narrowly avoided a shit ton of trouble.

[@gpknee]

Thank you! This is excellent! Bret is a clear voice in the madness of the season. I love his work, and I loved the insights you brought out of him.

[@marculmer9790]

Wow, those 2 hours just flew by! Fantastic conversation, Eric! Thank you!

[@danoneill2227]

Such an excellent and compelling series of podcasts so far with this, in my opinion, really ratcheting it up. Thanks for the great work. More please.

[@perpetualmoto]

Another AMAZING EPISODE! Keep 'em coming. Not concerned on the frequency but these have high value, keep them high value!

[@vryc]

Fantastic conversation. Yes. A REAL conversation. I liked the several points of push-back from both of you. Just loving this podcast. Keep going. This is so NECESSARY.

[@mercurymachines4311]

This was a fantastic conversation and I could relate to so much of what was said. Probably my favourite episode so far.

[@redfaust8189]

This is the best interview that I've seen of Bret, hands down!

[@intrograted792]

I was almost going to say 'it's Eric, not Bret'. lol

[@redfaust8189]

@@intrograted792 That's funny because I had the same thought as I was writing the comment. Haha

[@2DOLLARRIP]

I only know Bret from watching the movies of his books. I had no idea how intuitive this man was until I listen to this podcast.

[@pseudonimMusic]

Wow I wholeheartedly appreciate this conversation, especially the humility, honesty, openness and respectfulness that you have both exhibited. It's absolutely beautiful. Finally hearing that Gen X is waking up to its important role in the fabric of society, accepting the torch and expressing the wish to pass it on was absolutely wholesome, and sadly so rare to hear. I'm sure this conversation will become a beacon or anchor which will facilitate a smoother transition into a less paranoid, more empathetic and cohesive society, which is exactly what's missing from the conversation and our collective mentality.

[@wazzpqazzza]

Loving the podcast so far, I'm glad this time you took the chance to talk more extensively and not just probe and ask questions (though the questions you do ask are excellent). Always take the chance to hear your takes on the GIN and economic decoupling of the early 70's and every time I think I understand it a bit more. Keep rolling.

[@ams914]

I love Bret's take on things. Been a fan of his for a while.

[@yes_that_dolly]

I relate so much to this: alienation, divorce, feeling at home in numbness (thinking of one road trip in particular), darkness, the band X (loved Under the Big Black Sun), getting into bars without getting carded, not feeling damaged/triggered, Gen X resiliency and strength, the need to retake the institutions ... Gen X, the forgotten generation, is maybe the best positioned to save America from itself.

[@flowerpt]

I'm enjoying these immensely; always making me think of something I haven't entertained fully or concretizing abstract thoughts. New theory: each of these interviews is addressing one of Eric's insecurities - and I mean that technically. A discussion that can bring a concept or idea from 90% solid (but still full of 10% questions) to 98% solid, or whatever level is sufficient for it to not be a distraction or liability when he's ready to come forward with his Big Idea because that will require 100% attention. This one was about his teenage experience, validating his choice of living location, and strategizing how to communicate across generations. Well explored, IMO, and now I'm wondering how many more pieces of the puzzle await to complete the portal before he can step through. Hopefully soon enough that there's still time for engineering.

[@SkitsComic]

Please Please Please keep making this show. I need more of this!

[@Lwayte]

Excellent! Of course, I’m 56 and attended an elite private high school in Los Angeles, so I felt you were talking about me half the time. But even beyond that this conversation really talks honestly about some seriously important issues. I could have listened to two more hours.

[@r2jit2]

Best one yet. It's the first time I've actually wished Eric would let someone speak instead of the other way around. What an amazing treat to be able to sit in on such titanic meeting of minds.

[@jec222]

This one's a classic. Highly replayable. Keep it up, Eric!

[@richardwilliamjohnson8566]

Eric please keep doing these. Not sure why the view numbers are relatively low as your stuff so far has been gold. For context, I'm an electrician from Adelaide Australia, so I have very little in common with you, your culture and way of life but I find conversations like these excellent and informative. 👍

[@damonvonschweikert131]

What a fascinating discussion, thank you for producing this! As a Gen X LA club kid, I shared many of these experiences and insights.

[@danielb8152]

i'll never get tired of that intro music

[@dadman9799]

I’m going to have to read “Less than Zero” now . Great Podcast fellas

[@morkovija]

Woot woot! new episode!

[@venom07786]

Loved the talk brother. Thank you

[@leocasamento5742]

Great conversation gentleman. We need more of this.😀👍👍👍

[@jamesjensen5000]

As someone born in 1950, the assassination of Kennedy was the end of my childhood and illusions of order and stability of the America I first knew and expected to become a part of as an adult. I too attended an all boys private high school... and by graduation in 1968 was well on the road to drug usage and alcoholism... even if I didn’t realize it at the time. Vietnam name was my generations rude awakening... the Manson killings were a sub- chapter... I first visited California and San Francisco/ LA in 1968 ... but I was more into cars and nice hotels and beaches than counter culture. College to me was first a way to get a job... but that crashed with a bad experience with student teaching... I quit becoming a teacher... just as I previously quit becoming a priest... so I became an artist instead. Sex drugs and art... then I met a woman and married and became a father... I kept the dream of being an artist alive until 1980... I realized I needed to clean up my life, get sober and get a real job... boomer, gen X or millennial... without regard to titles we all grow older and either get a life, go crazy, or die... even gen x will became old and obsolete... today I travel, read, nap and watch funny podcasts... I love Trump... he and I are cut of the same flesh.

[@jarrodanderson2124]

Your lord & savior are cut from extremely different clothes than you. Wake up you drunk poet burnout.

[@annikinstarkiller600]

Fantastic discussion. I appreciate the frankness and candor of both of you on this podcast. Keep going. -A millennial viewer/listener

[@Tamer_108]

Great taste in guests so far, Eric. This is an exciting new podcast.

[@purplezoid1]

Brilliant conversation. Thanks!! 👍🏻

[@Unsubscribedd]

That was brilliant. Thanks for that!

[@2DOLLARRIP]

I honestly didn't expect much from this podcast. I thought it was going to be an author promoting a book. This has to be one of the most fascinating podcasts I've ever listened to. You gentlemen have basically broken down our society, currently and from yesterday, into palatable and understandable meanings. This was your best yet Eric. I'll even go so far as to say this is 10 times better than the Peter Thiel podcast. I agree with you 100% on the phenomenon of Trump and why people buy into his brand of politics. You hit it completely on the money. Great job!

[@danielobregon6588]

Excellent interview. I could easily listen to another 2 hours.

[@jake8473]

This was transcendent. Thank you both.

[@twstdelf]

"You see, feeling screwed up in a screwed up place in a screwed up time does not mean you are screwed up, if you catch my drift." ~ Pump Up The Volume (1990)

[@SatanDynastyKiller]

twstdelf if it walks like a duck, talks like like a duck...

[@jhitchcock5503]

As the mother of both millennials and zoomers, I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that not having children if having a detrimental impact on the health and well-being of young women. There is a biological tension that is being missed by larger segments of the female population that is destabilizing or civilization. We need to be doing more to supper those women who want to be mothers.

[@zuggrr]

I listened to the podcast version, great content!

[@dallasboringnews7157]

I always listen to the podcast first and then see these videos uploaded a couple days/weeks later

[@beartrapperkc]

Even more respect for Eric being totally familiar with The Germs!

[@samcomfort6564]

Best one yet Eric! Makes me want to visit la

[@DaveZ150]

Fantastic conversation. I'm not convinced this dark numbness they're referring to was limited to LA. I grew up in Middle America. Graduated high school in 1980 at 17 yo (making me the last year of the Boomers on some charts), I think this decadence existed where I lived. Some of the things I experienced in the late 70s are difficult to comprehend today. I'm glad I experienced it, and I'm glad I can sort of remember the end of the hippie era. Younger people today seem to think the older generations stepped right out of the Jim Crow era or something, like there was no evolution over the last half century. I'm at the end of the Boomers and my Boomer mother was a hippie for example, she had me at 20 yo. We were the generations that engaged in the Cultural Revolution and won, or, the Culture War. Jordan Hall wrote that the Culture Wars of the 1950s through the 1990s were won by the left, real social injustices challenged and largely overcome. On an institutional level, I'd say mostly overcome. Social justice has devolved into nonsense over the last decade or so. This world they paint in this interview was a part of the good fight, like when we were halfway there. That's part of what was going on along with the darkness and the excesses. Challenging all social norms, nothing was sacred and a lot of mistakes were made. The Reagan era that followed was a sort of correction, a shift right, the strength of current day conservatism grew from there. I've never been a fan but I understand cause and effect. What bothers me the most about the social justice movements of 2019 is that they don't understand the difficulties of getting to this point in time and they're destroying the good will that our past social justice movements were able to create because they did hold the moral high ground. This inability to acknowledge that the cup is half full, to push a false belief that US society is horribly oppressive today strengthens the far right, it helped to give us Trump. Liberalism of today has become dangerous in this way imo. They're discrediting liberalism and many people are seeking answers with the far right. Trump's xenophobic politicking has been normalized among millions of voters and the left can't even articulate a comprehensible position on immigration anymore. No Democratic candidate can dare to promise to take a hard-line like Obama did. I think that this issue alone, the weakness of the Democrats on immigration, will hand 2020 to Trump. As hard as Obama was, it was a far more humane policy than what is playing out now with 'zero tolerance.' A human rights catastrophe going on while liberals are canceling each other at every opportunity, instead of engaged in the solidarity that's needed to win. All Democratic candidates backing a strong but more humane position on illegal immigration for example. Completely impossible in this environment that's evolved with Trump. The intersectionalists have only doubled down since Trump won, making the Democrats even weaker than in 2016. We shouldn't be fooled by the midterm election, I think Trump may win in a landslide in 2020, just as Reagan won his second term. Millennials are not even aware of the freedoms they were born with because of what older people lived through imo. Their superior view of themselves, as far more tolerant, or intolerant of biases. They don't seem to understand that they're a product of earlier generations and the battles we fought and won, along with the generation before mine, older Boomers. I don't feel a need for my generation to take credit, but when there's so much blame directed at us, we should attempt some balance in the debate. Much good has evolved over the last half century. The media has turned the older generations into another identity to blame for their apocalyptic worldview. Like we screwed everything up for them rather than handed them a cup that's more than half full. Far less prejudice and all the rest giving them the luxury to focus on micro-aggressions instead of real aggression. I'm gay, my generation was defined by the AIDS epidemic for example, those of us who survived it. Old white gay men are now seen as the privileged oppressors within the LGBTQ world, a real load of bull crap, they've turned our history into a false reality to fit their ideology. They're canceling us even though we're literally survivors who fought like hell for an equal place in society, along with all LGBTQ people who are not white men, we didn't think in those terms decades ago. We didn't have the luxury. Our solidarity with one another came naturally, because we shared the experience of real hate and oppression. I also read Less Than Zero when it came out, loved it, and I took many trips to Los Angeles in the mid-80s. I ended up moving to California by 1990, Northern California, I never wanted to be part of LA but I've always enjoyed it. I've never seen Easton Ellis interviewed, really enjoyed it.

[@bjkarana]

Excellent synopsis, and I'll add to your comment, "I'm not convinced this dark numbness they're referring to was limited to LA" that most LA residents, like NYC dwellers, believes each alone is the center of the Universe, and the rest of us are clueless mouth breathers out cutting hay.... only some of which is true.

[@DaveZ150]

@@bjkarana It's true. I tried to explain to some of my San Francisco friends when I lived there that the 'decadence' of SF was so mainstream that it was a bit vanilla. If they wanted to know true decadence, they'd explore the dark underbelly of Middle America. John Waters understood this!

[@kensurrency2564]

Yes, millennials swear that the cup is empty and we have all this social work to do. Because there’s not much left to do, and they feel like they have to do something! So let’s tear it all down so we can fight all of the battles we won over again. It’s nonsense. It’s like WWI. They often fought 3 or 4 of the same battles with no movement of the lines. It will become an evolutionary stalemate. Humans will get stuck, and the powerful will take advantage as they always do. That’s where this movement goes. Hint: it’s all a wealth transfer as we become serfs again

[@MattFosterGymnastics]

You the man Eric! Thanks for your time and research!

[@Lunarvandross]

Thank you for including us in your conversation.

[@TheSynthros]

Holy shit. What a fascinating conversation. Thank you! “I think it has to do with a strange kind of lack of empathy, even when people say warm fuzzy things to each other.”

[@DreadfulNW]

Great chemistry! This is a good one.

[@oxpajama4313]

Wonderful conversation

[@x0rn312]

This was a fantastic conversation

[@InternationalCook]

Outstanding podcast! Thank you :)

[@Tstorm731]

The best of gen-x reacting to the worst of the millennials to an audience of the best of the millennials. It’s oddly frustrating, but I love it.

[@mimistone2309]

I love your courage, especially considering who your boss is! Only a real genius gets away with this! Thank you!!!

[@jakubklodawski2603]

Eric, bring on Nassim Nicholas Taleb! No one I've seen on KZbin is able to have an organic conversation with him. The man is reluctant to engage with this format. I'm investing hope in The Portal to give us that long-form with him! Otherwise, excellent guest selection, excellent content, excellent podcast!

[@romankov3069]

Please

[@visionofdisorder]

that guy's a quack and an IQ denialist

[@Massivecarcrash]

That was an enlightening podcast on a period of time I never experienced. There is something to the notion "It was a different time".

[@christiansgrignoli3351]

Amazing conversation

[@groffy1988]

Amazing! Millennials want what you are talking about. Keep it up

[@brianstocks4145]

best video ive watched from the IDW in months. finally, it was starting to lose acceleration.

[@nancina49]

This is so good that I am listening to "White" which I downloaded from the library. Refreshingly open conversation.

[@tensevo]

It is a strange thought, but I grew up in a completely different part of the world, yet I can relate to this conversation, where were the grown ups? when we were playing out all day with no supervision??

[@jeffersonsantiago5567]

Me too, I'm hungry for these kind of conversations that relates to my country but they're nowhere to be found.

[@maplenook]

The dad worked. The mom made dinner.

[@hdbfdhsbfu817]

@@maplenook yes!

[@taylorweidman5051]

Great as always. Thanks.

[@MarkGrandlouis]

I love finding The Portal.

[@mpetry912]

super interesting guest Eric ! thank you !

[@pratysinha]

It's quite commendable just how much Eric knows about the Indian subcontinent and it's culture

[@rasmushertzum252]

This is really a poetic episode

[@alanfike]

Maybe the times had changed in the time between when he lived in Los Angeles as a young person, than when I lived in Los Angeles in my 20s (back in the 2000s), but if you're a struggling artist in L.A. these days, it isn't anywhere near as charming as he's describing. I'm not sure it was ever as charming as he's describing -- he talks about access to the beach, but the water is less than 60 degrees all year round. Who wants to go to a cold beach? Yes, I'm talking that same Santa Monica/Venice/etc. coast -- it is cold water even in the dead of August. Also what he describes as the "imagination" of Los Angeles is nothing of what I remember, and the films that we have in theaters now, and have had for years now, confirms this memory. Right now we have Joker in the theaters -- even in our character studies we can't do it without tying it to a comic book character. Thank god we still get a Tarantino film in a blue moon. Really, I think the description of L.A. that we're getting here is the point of view of a WEALTHY PERSON in L.A. rather than any struggling artist. Seriously, if you're poor in Los Angeles you better have friends, because it's a status-obsessed nightmare. For all the artistry, any Renaissance that he describes, we can find even more finance-minded, money-making shlock devised by self-centered, career-obsessed opportunists. Los Angeles might have been a bohemia long ago, but it's now a city of generating money from the least amount of humanity or ingenuity. Hey, let's *remake* a cartoon that's already been made!! And then do it for another cartoon!! /s That's what I think of these days when I'm reminded of Los Angeles.

[@georgewatts6221]

Well said. It's the truth.

[@elenigros]

This kind of disparity in how you perceive same place has to do with poverty. If you are poor, anywhere anytime, you live in a parallel universe..

[@jamesp3902]

@@jcclarkeru Only Ellis partied. Weinstein only claimed to have gone to school with those who partied.

[@fainitesbarley2245]

That’s about the sea temperature in the U.K. on a really good day - and people go in the sea all the time

[@advocate1563]

@@fainitesbarley2245 particularly when we're pissed 😂

[@ErnestoEduardoDobarganes]

Another excellent dose of sense-making.

[@FelixxAlrick]

Thank you Eric.

[@irfana398]

Wao that was super interesting. I find so many coherence between my thoughts and what you expressed in this video

[@silversurfer13100]

Great episode love the variety of guests on the show. Would love to hear you interview Paul Stamets sometime.

[@lastdaysonearth4375]

As some one who is Generation X this was a portal into my mind ...bravo.

[@Foley480]

Amazing, best commentator around imo.

[@markwoodson2020]

Delicious! What a thrill to see this in my feed!

[@jimmyfortef3674]

This was an interesting podcast, I learnt something useful too.

[@annapohuly1423]

This conversation made me feel nostalgic and heartbreakingly sad for kids these days.

[@gerardmulder7656]

The definition of call out culture as a deranged set of rules lacking Irony is pretty spot on too, great podcast.

[@codynemeth6395]

The ambiguity of irony lol brilliant, I love it. Honestly hands down the best portal interview thus far and one of the best interviews of 2019 imo. Relevant af more like this plz sir

[@renzotoglia]

Eric, host Yuval Harari. He is one of the few as your equal. His brilliant and lucid dissection of our current chaos would make a great conversation for us the audience to participate. Thank you

[@pedrob7374]

this podcast is soooo good..

[@Ipatiouk]

Good discussion!

[@martinbaum5354]

first time on this podcast- fascinating interview

[@jeeed6390]

Third time I’ve heard this. Stunning.

[@operandexpanse]

Totally agree with you Eric in regards to people feeling cut out of society. The demand for more authenticity is real and good but in many cases it's going wrong with bad actors.

[@gavwan]

There was a real nugget of gold near the middle of this one for me. When Eric described the situation with running out of ways to feed constant economic growth after the baby boomers; this also chimed back to the Portal with Peter Thiel where they discussed the physics stagnation since the 80s I believe. This to me would explain the 10 year global recession cycle we seem to be stuck in no matter how much central banks and governments cook the books.

[@Tstorm731]

A sizable portion of the millennial generation surreptitiously resonates with generation x sensibilities. We are the portion that listen to podcasts like The Portal. We share a kind of subjective concrescence but we have never felt like we were able to get anywhere with our peers when we express these sensibilities. We need to pass our test of courage and learn to express ourselves. I know I and many like-minded young people have been sidelined by their own alienation. I just sit in my apartment working tirelessly on an internal framework for the allegorical alchemical transmutation of lead into gold. But to leave my apartment and confront the world with my creations makes my skin crawl. Keep confronting the world Eric. So far, The Portal is the best podcast I've ever heard.

[@tonsfocus]

Love the analogy of Trump as Mr. Blond @56:42 . Lots of innovative idea play in this podcast - really well done Eric and Bret! This is the best one so far, imho.

[@jeeed6390]

This needs to be longer.