British First Generation 750V DC EMUs Classes 411 to 416 between 1992 & 2000

This video shows classes 411/5, 412, 414, 415/1, 415/4, 415/6, 416/2 & 416/3 in operation in the South London area. They were built in the 1960s, some to Southern Railway designs, operated on 750V DC picked up from a third rail and had slam doors. They are seen between 1992 and 2000 - in their last years of operation.

[@paulbennell3313]

I'm so glad people took the trouble to film things like this while they still existed.

[@RUOKH]

Oh...the joy of the Slam-Door trains, when everyone would remember to 'slam the door closed' if they were the last to exist the musty carriage. This was REAL commuting. Happy days and thank you for the trip down the Kent Lines memory lane.

[@MemeReviewer]

I love the look of early BR EMUS, basically self-propelled MK1s

[@meruliouslacrimens5154]

Thanks indeed, i drove most of the units shown and as networkers came in, more and more older drivers preferred the old stock whereas the new drivers wanted networkers. I found the old stock to be more reliable.

[@glenjarnold]

Those slamming doors take me straight back to Victoria 1987/88!

[@IeatToesForaLiving]

This is something I call golden footage

[@Bunny_bomb_productions]

Yes

[@neilbolger2679]

Great compilation . Certainly brought back memories of the old slammers here in Portsmouth. Thank you for sharing your grand work

[@physiocrat7143]

At 3:27 is 1698, one of the 411/6 based at Brighton. These were fitted with Mark 6 motor bogies and B5(SR) trailer bogies, also the 412 units in the video had these. They were probably the smoothest riding of the mark 1 express EMUs - much better than those with Commonwealth bogies.

[@physiocrat7143]

A lot more pleasant and comfortable than the junk we have to put up with now.

[@djtrainspotter3079]

Brilliant vid this, so many memories! . . Seem to remember me ex telling me (who drove locos along it), the 416/3's had window bars fitted because of restricted clearances on the North London Line, i always hanged out of windows of slam-door stock . . Many thanks for recording and uploading these splendid units, well missed i must admit!! Cheers :)

[@laurenceskinnerton73]

I remember these.

[@laurencedunn5508]

used to drive these vehicles. Good day's 👍

[@4vepvik781]

Nice to see old school EPBs et al..Thanks to the foresighted Guys who recorded this so that We have visual posterity.

[@peaps]

This video is a real gem! I'll be using it to help to model my current layout, -thanks.

[@jefflloyd7308]

I miss all the noise of the doors slaming when number crunching in the rush hours,just lots of excelleration humming not unpleasant tho smashing watching your old stuff ...thank you

[@2H80vids]

Some great footage, as usual. Very interesting to watch film of this age with decent captions.

[@AaronOxfordExmouth1989]

ah the memories. awesome vid. used to use the line between greenwich and london every day. thank for sharing.

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

15:40 Unit 416-319. SR designed 2EPB using Bulleid mainline steam hauled coach jigs to form the bodyshells, and then placed on a ex 2NOL (NO-Lavatory) EMU chassis dating from 1934-35. This chassis had itself come from earlier LSWR coaching stock and could date back to 1898 ! Despite its age, this does not mean the chassis is in any way defective. Chassis were heavy duty steel, well maintained, and well protected against rust.

[@maryginger4877]

My Mum rode those earlier trains, and as kids commuting into London through the more interesting parts of the 70s , with strikes and breakdowns they'd rollout the old stuff and it was a total treat...

[@maryginger4877]

LSWR rox

[@stephenpowell5912]

Beautiful sound of the Thumpers ❤️ Great iconic Locomotives and Classic footage to that Classic throaty Clag ❤️

[@jasonl4411]

brilliant video. nice to see shots of greenwich before it was sacrificed for the DLR

[@jasonaris5316]

I remember Quick Snack need to get a bit of Benjies up there too

[@medwaymodelrailway7129]

Like the video very much .Looking forward to more video.

[@davidmeachen2896]

I love these old trains, would love to see some of them back in service and preserved

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

If we put some of these "old" units back into service they would leave many of the Post BR era types behind, both in acceleration and top end speed. For example many of the ghastly Class 455 sliding door units actually inherited old 4SUB traction motors, but when leaving Waterloo alongside an "old" 4SUB they couldn't keep up ! The 4REP 3,200hp units are even more fun, they gave their motors and some of their braking equipment to the 5WES (Class 442) units. Each 5WES had half the motors of a 4REP, so had 1,600hp. So a 2x 5WES = 3,200hp. But a 4REP pushing 2x4TC (also 3,200hp) would leave the 5WES units behind. Why? Because the Engineers building the modern trains want to put all the latest and most expensive new electrical ideas into these new units, which themselves take power, so there is less for traction. Further many new electric units use 3 Phase traction motors, and all the electrical gear necessary to convert the 750v DC supply back into AC, takes time ! Indeed I notice the line speed between Surbiton & Worting Junction has been reduced from 100mph to 90mph since I used to drive trains along this route in BR days. Why? Because the "balancing speed" of the modern EMU's on this route is about 91mph due to all their power consuming accessories, so a 100mph line speed is superfluous. On the section of line between Surbiton & Worting Junction (beyond Basingstoke) it wasn't unknown for Bulleid Pacific steam locos to exceed 100mph with 12/13 car trains. A 4REP with 8TC on that section of line had no problem reaching 110mph, although in excess of the speed limit, more than one Driver achieved this. But the record on this route was most likely set by a Salisbury driver in the early 1990's with a Class 50 Diesel & 8x Mk2a/b coaches, with the late running 06.30 Up Exeter-Waterloo express. He was clocked by then new hand held Radar guns near Fleet doing 126mph by Two Traction Inspectors. Having left Salisbury 20mins late he arrived in Waterloo 5mins early, and those sent to relieve him of Duty were too late, and he vanished, and no one could discover who had been Driving that train. The official Driver had been rushed to Hospital in Salisbury with Peritonitus !

[@bb-3653]

@@TheDuke-vb9cq it always baffled me why class 455s weren't just given GEC motors like the 317s and 319s they were very slow and even after AC upgrades.. still slow. Putting some of the more powerful slam door units motors on the 455s would have been better...but idk why their kw power was limited to around 600kw (Internet sources mention this at least) maybe making third rail better would be beneficial? Merseyside apparently got their third rail systems upgraded to better supply their new units with power and low and behold...they are FAST

[@dodgydruid]

Them CEP's were the queens of SR in their time, used to go down to Margate and other places on the CEP's and always a superb run esp with the buffet as a quick flash of the ol' PT and "staff rates" with the often asked question of one teabag sir or two? A saturday would often be spent nipping up to Waterloo to grab a coastal or bus into Bromley South for a coastal then work my way round by rail to come back either from Brighton to Clapham, Clapham to Waterloo and Waterloo East to Grove Park or feeling adventurous wander even further to Portsmouth and Southampton and back up to Waterloo that way and one weekend I got all the way to Weymouth to watch the quay trains coming and going. Of course mixing it about a bit I did oft hit on a Hastings diesel as their buffets made the best tea in my opinion. The furthest I got in a day on my PT was Oban, finding when I got there no B&B's had space so spoke to the local police who spoke to someone at an old people's home there and gave me a bed for the night and a bit o' dinner too :D

[@williamradford9631]

The old 415's were still in use on the Kingston Waterloo route, when other lines got the new sliding door trains

[@lewisculverwellvlogs9789]

In 1995 the remaining Class 415s and Class 416s got replaced by Networkers (Class 465/0s, Class 465/1s, Class 465/2s and Class 466s and 10 years later the remaining Class 411s, Class 421s and Class 423s got replaced by Class 444s and Class 450s in the South Western region and Class 377s in the South Central region and Class 375s and 34 Class 465/2s which has been refurbished and converted into Class 465/9s in the South Eastern region

[@williamradford9631]

Classic Network southeast "slam door" trains on the Hastings Eastbourne Victoria line, with Buffet car from Eastbourne

[@thewise3551]

Can believe they were still going so late.

[@Westside_Kenny]

Awsum video i still like the older trains better than today s rubbish

[@andyplummer3656]

These were the first traction units I learnt😊

[@laurencedunn5508]

me to 1980s Orpington depot

[@trainrover]

I've forgot which - if any - of those fleets bore inner door latches.

[@petersimmons7394]

Which class were the slam door "Toast rack" units I used to catch from Bromley South to Victoria in 1970 - 73? They were memorable as having full height bulkheads - thus each set of 2 full width bench seats were completely isolated from the rest of the carriage.

[@alexlewis1901]

Note all the red cantrips that were painted because of Debbie Linsley's murder. Look at 12:17, 13:03 and 13:49

[@garycard1456]

The modern trains do not have the nostalgic aromas and sounds of these older trains. Which is a shame. I'd bring all these older trains back (have them made again, from scratch) if I were Minister of Transportation!

[@class37100]

15.26-15.53 the 2EPBs shown have bars fitted, this was because they were used on the North London line from 1984-1989.

[@andrewbrown6786]

Ah yes, the Camden Guilotine 😉

[@mariogeis9558]

jack is on the run. gazo vedere

[@riverhuntingdon6659]

The first Class 411 and 410s 4CEP/BEPs were put into service in 1956, and were prototypes with English Electric 1951 type control equipment. Of course these were the first to go despite being refurbished. The later CIG stock (18xx series)from the Southwestern Division was appallingly maintained by Ramsgate shed, none of the bogs'd flush and they were always filthy. So were the CEPs for their last 10 years or so under privateering pirates Connex. Note that all the SouthWestern BEP units were fitted with running gear retrieved from the old REP/TC stock. This vastly improved the ride. Later CIGs and the VEPs had this design from new, and it was also fitted to some older 63 CIG stock on the Brighton Line units. This meant having to do away with the electric parking brake formerly fitted and having a wind-on one instead in the cabs.

[@david-othen]

Thanks for all the extra information, I have to rely on two locomotive & coaching stock books and the internet!

[@trainmaniacstudios8216]

+River Huntingdon HAHAHAHAHA you got that right! I remember the CIG's and CEP'S in their last days on my local line! Aww they were an experience to remember! Rocking and jolting along in grimy NSE colours or even grimier still, Connex. liveries. Good memories :D

[@bingbong7316]

Ooh, not first gen by a long chalk. You'd have to go back to LSWR days for that. For me, I loved the 2-BILs and 2-HALs built in the 1930's, wonderful machines with their own sounds and smells. CEPs and BEPs were 1st gen Kent Coast right enough.

[@AndreiTupolev]

It seems to be that the 4 BEPs (23xx) had B5 bogies then, rather than Commonwealth, and 1698 (3:19) must have been a BEP reformed as a CEP

[@mariogeis9558]

56-63 is exactly what i need. tused tak

[@mariogeis9558]

stokmar

[@mariogeis9558]

i'm 44

[@alanrobertson9790]

Although I can readily identify the loco and DMU types I struggle on these EMU classes. How does a Class 414 differ in appearance to a 416?

[@KitsuneKiera]

I know this comment is 2 years old but on the Driving Trailer a Class 414 has a toilet in the middle of the carriage, a class 416 has no toilets. Also a class 414 had first class just behind the cab on the Driving Trailer while the 416 was standard class only.

[@train4905]

Ecellent😊

[@riverhuntingdon6659]

12:20 (ish) 4EPB 5624, BR Standard MK1 surburban design with 1957 English Electric "Camshaft" traction control, facelifted, ( fitted with PA, reupholstered, and striplights ) and unfacelifted 2EPB on rear. Also, about 3:20, 4CEP 1698, the last one to run back in 2005 on the Southern Belle railtour. Extensively robbed and vandalised on this trip by "preservationists" it was due to be retained as a historic unit. Scrapped like nearly all the others. Had a problem with the accelerator relay on one power car, kept cutting out in series if memory serves.

[@david-othen]

Thanks for the correction. I had problems reading the numbers - obviously what I thought was 5524 was actually 5624! I had no idea of which two car unit was on the rear.

[@JamesSmith-mv9fp]

DETAILS OF ALL EPB'S BELOW. Extracts from the Two Volume History of - "Southern Electric" by David Brown published by Capital Transport in 2005: In December 1951 the previous Bulleid 4SUB suburban unit construction finished. Followed immediately & also in December 1951 by the first 4-car 4EPB design: Unit 5001. The EPB family introduced a host of changes including Buckeye couplings, a new braking system and an ability to cope with the proposed BR increase of the 3rd rail from 660v to 750v. As a result they could NOT operate in multiple with ANY previous type of unit. Despite that the first batches of 4EPB used the BULLEID construction jigs of the previous 4SUB type, and were only distinguishable by a slightly different cab design. BR versions used a totally different all steel welded body on slightly longer Mk1 type coach chassis. BULLEID 4EPB units: 5001-5053 & 5101 - 5260 Introduced: December 1951 $. BULLEID 2EPB units: 5651-5684. Introduced: 1958-9 (Electrically 1951 type) * BULLEID 2HAP units: 5601-5636. Introduced: 1957-8 (Electrically 1951 type) * BR 4EPB units: 5301-5356. Introduced: 1960-1. (Electrically 1957 type) BR 4EPB units: 5357-5370. Introduced: 1962-3. (Electrically 1957 type. Late Phase 2 body mods) BR 2EPB units 5701-5779 & 5800. Introduced 1954. (Electrically 1951 type except 5800 as 1957 type) BR 2EPB units 5781-5795. Introduced 1954 for NEWCASTLE services. Returned to SR in 1963.** BR 2HAP units 6001-6042. Introduced: 1957-8. (1951 Electrical type. Standard EPB construction) BR 2HAP units 6043-6105. Introduced: 1958-9. (1957 Electrical type. Phase 1 body mods)*** BR 2HAP units 6106-6146. Introduced: 1961. (1957 Electrical type. Early Phase 2 body mods.) BR 2HAP units 6147-6173. Introduced: 1962-3. (1957 Electrical type. Late Phase 2 body mods.) * BULLEID type 2HAP's & 2EPB's built on recovered 1930's 2NOL chassis'. ** These units had a bigger Guards van area and a separate window in this enlarged area. *** Units 6104 - 6173 were fitted with the heavier but smoother "Commonwealth" bogies. $ Units 5001-5053 had Eastern Division motor bogies while 5101-5260 had Central Division type motor bogies. Note: BR's policy on speed for EMU's was that the Suburban EMU fleet would have a maximim of 75mph, and express designs such as the HAP stock would be geared for a 90mph maximum. This policy held true until the introduction of the "Wessex Electric" Class 442 units in 1990, which were authorised for 100mph, only on the Bournemouth line. The "Southern Electric" 3rd rail network began in 1914 at 600v. The Southern Railway increased this voltage to 660v in the period 1927-29. BR began upgrading to 750v from 1959 when pre-war designs limited to 660v were withdrawn. So the last areas to be upgraded to 750v DC were the central & south Western suburban areas from 1983 once the last 4SUB's had gone. One exception is the Bournemouth line beyond Pirbright Junction (Brookwood) which was electrified to Bournemouth in 1966-67 at 800v DC.

[@MrSmurf35]

any Videos of 414 -4311 unit were Purchasing the Unit Were on fb Class414Preservation

[@Pixel_pixie963]

These trains used to arc in the winter!

[@2KXMKR]

I have class 508's (third rail, like these) running past the back of my house. It's like a thunder storm out there every time a train passes when it's frosty.

[@TheZacDJ]

MickMaan Tidy! Love the personal fireworks display you get from the juice rail on a proper icey night.

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

They could arc anytime. Probably best were the Class 73 Electro-Diesels when hauling heavy trains through the numerous gaps around pointwork. Huge flashes and puffs of smoke were quite normal. It was estimated the temperature created would cook Sunday lunch in a mere second......

[@vincitveritas3872]

9.24 that's some incline it's going down

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

Indeed steep. Wait until you see the "Wall of Death" a 1 in 44 gradient with a sharp curve between Sutton & West Sutton, and the following "roller coaster" ride all the way to South Merton. This line was specially built to suit EMU power conservation. So each station was built at the top of a rise, with dips between. Known as the "Wimbledon & Sutton" line it was built between 1929-30 and electrified from the outset. The Chessington branch followed with the same "roller coaster" layout of stations at the top of rises with dips between stations. This new line was opened to Chessington South on 28th May 1939. The last section to Leatherhead never opened as a result of WW2. After the war the implementation of the "Green Belt" banned further construction.

[@zenzombie72]

2 Questions. Some had a slight roof overhang at the front, and some didn't. What's with that? Some had a big dark 'collar' around the end doors, and some were plain yellow. What's with that?

[@garycard1456]

Different train classes/models, with subtle differences in design

[@physiocrat7143]

The later ones were probably a fibreglass moulding ie classes 421 and 423. The older stock had the roof sheet overhang.

[@williamradford9631]

London Waterloo 1998, spot the Eurostar leaving on DC pickup rail

[@jacksugden8190]

British Rail Network South East - Pretty depressing rolling stock back then, they had good seating, but heavy rain allowed water to come inside via a closed window once in Southern Region. As for now in 2019 (National Rail), only bonus was being over 60, and have free travel after 09:30 weekdays, free at weekends - 60+ Oyster Card, trains are still a higher standard.

[@xm3405]

These train were pretty much pacers but instead of a bus they were old steam carriages fitted with electric motors.

[@highdownmartin]

They are miles better than pacers and the carriages were built to be emus. EPB Every Person Bounce

[@Xgeneration28]

the kent coast stock were allot better than the kent link stock.. there was first class private compartments, toilets and you could walk through the carriages.

[@scotty87able]

ahh the good old 415s with no noses

[@peterudbjorg]

Too bad none of these are preserved in running shape… I’ve learned that some survive as coaches on a steam preserved railroad. Thus they exist, but "in limbo"…

[@EM-yk1dw]

Oh yes the Southern when it WAS the Southern, no bombardier or Siemens monstrosities

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

Odd. Seimens were of course involved in the original LB&SCR overhead 6,700v 25Hz AC system as initially installed on the "South London Line" in 1909, and also provided certain electrical components for the first batchh of 3-car "SL" units !!!

[@TheDuke-vb9cq]

Minor detail problem with your title! They are NOT British 1st Generation EMU's, and when many of these units were built the voltage was still 660v !!!! Work on the 3rd rail system was begun by the London & South Western Railway as long ago as 1912. Preceded by the LB&SCR South London Line from Victoria to London Bridge, overhead system at 6,700v 25Hz AC system of 1909 !!! If we assume the 600v DC LSWR EMU's are the real 1st Generation 3rd rail types. These being the 3-car "Nutcracker" sets E1-E85 introduced to service between 1914-1917. Then from 1923 the host of new Southern Railway designs can be regarded as the "2nd Generation". That means of course that the BR designed & built types from the introduction of the first 4EPB in 1951 with new braking, electrical and coupling systems, incompatible with previous types, become the "3rd Generation". Indeed the Southern Region of BR ceased to construct EMU's for its own services in 1963. When the BRB took a hand and production of the next generation of designs was given to Derby & York. These being the 1964 4CIG, 4 BIG & 1967 4VEP 4REP & 4TC types. These trains although still "slam door" were different in many ways even having a different method of current collection. So form the "4th Generation" of types ! SR 3RD RAIL VOLTAGES 600v DC used on all routes between 1912 and 1933. In 1933 the first mainline (London to Brighton 50 miles) was added to the SR electrified network. Line voltage was increased to 660v, from this time for all the follow on electrification schemes. This included both mainline routes to Portsmouth, Reading, & the Maidstone & Gillingham lines. This voltage could also be accommodated by the suburban EMU's without alteration. As the invention of the "Mercury Arc Rectifier" (1931) now allowed substations to be remotely controlled. This resulted in all older manually operated substations being slowly modernised and at the same time the voltage was increased to 660v at these locations between 1933-45. The 1955 "BR Modernisation Plan" to extend mainline electrification to the Kent Coast also resulted in a requirement to increase the line voltage to 750v DC. However as none of the pre-BR EMU types could cope with this increase (without expensive conversion), the new lines to Dover & Ramsgate would have new stock suited to 750v DC, and the 1938 Gillingham & Maidstone outer suburban electrification would also be upgraded to 750v DC to suit. This helps explain why the 4CEP & 4BEP express types were also supported by the Semi-Fast 2HAP designs. The 2HAP's took over services from the older 2HAL & 2BIL types used to Maidstone & Gillingham. Other routes could not be upgraded to 750v DC until older pre-BR EMU's were withdrawn & replaced. So the Brighton mainline & Sussex lines beyond Coulsdon went to 750v in 1973. The Reading line also about 1975 beyond the suburban area. The last 660v lines in the suburban area had to wait until the last 4SUB's were withdrawn around 1982. One oddball situation little known is that the 1966/7 Bournemouth electrification introduced a totally new type of substation for this electrification beyond Pirbright Junction (near Brookwood). These new "container type" substations actually supply 800v DC, because the original intention was to allow the 4REP 3,200hp units to run at 100mph between here and Eastleigh. However the final all up weight of the 4REP's was heavier than planned and the Civil Engineer refused to allow them to officially exceed 90mph. Only when the (lighter) 5WES units arrived was 100mph authorised for these units, over this route. Other BR type EMU's are unaffected by this slight increase to 800v DC, except to aid acceleration slightly.