British Masters 10K at Chichester 10K - what to learn from a poor race?

[@BenNotley]

Watched Stephens video yesterday. Loved it. 👍 Dont be diheartened by that performance Tim. Still miles better than anything I could ever do. Still a great run mate! 👏🏅 Instead of saying that you were tired next time maybe just say that you "pulled out" 😉

[@TimGrose]

Thanks! Yeah it was a bit disheartening especially as normally when you run badly you can point to a blank looking Strava. In that sense gives me some confidence to think might just be a case of some slight tweaks here and there - not least of which is just getting a bit more rest generally.

[@TheRichKeeble]

Well done Tim. Enjoyed Stephen's video too. You're inspirational - I got my 10K PB of 42:18 recently so I hope one day to be complaining about that sort of time myself!

[@TimGrose]

Ah thanks. All relative isn't it. Hope your marathon training is going well. Funny how quickly things come around. It's already almost time for Seville again that I did last year. Good job am not running this year!

[@TheRichKeeble]

@@TimGrose Thanks Tim! Maybe you'll be back with another enviable performance at Seville next year!

[@TimGrose]

@@TheRichKeeble never say never. It’s a great event.

[@misterbelll]

Great video Tim, thanks....get some long winter runs in....Winter miles, summer smiles...& all that...GL👍👍

[@TimGrose]

Yeah thanks that’s a good way to think about it. I tend to feel happier when bit warmer for sure.

[@alfdickinson1971]

You remind me of Marvin the robot from Hitchhikers Guide(Original BBC version) PMSL... Looking forward to watching Stephen Cousins! Love your work Tim

[@TimGrose]

Ah thanks - I think :) Guess he is tall & thin and maybe past his prime LOL.

[@JohnBirtchetSharpe]

It is cold (not freezing just a windy chill), I did not sleep well last night , and its poring with rain outside .. but this inspires me to get my lazy behind out the door , I know its not much of a consilation but I am a couple of years younger then you and on your bad day I would have found it very hard to keep up with you.

[@TimGrose]

Ah that’s good to hear. Getting out is hardest thing this time of year. I did think about turning off alarm and not bothering to go but one good thing about a relatively bad race is got an easier target to beat next time and would not have had good banter with Stephen and Phil nor feature in my own documentary video ! And I guess performance is all relative. I keep feel I am losing to myself like last year but guess that is the trend now. Just need to try and slow it and as you say just keep getting out there.

[@ianbarnett5051]

Well done Phil.

[@TimGrose]

I nearly hit the dislike button LOL but seriously he is running better than has done for many years so I have an obvious target for next time.

[@TolunayOrkun]

I am in your age group though my start to running is very recent. Your worst times is my dreams at the moment. Don't be hard on yourself since you are still framing yourself to younger self. You are doing extremely well at your age and an inspiration for us. One question: Do you do any strength workouts? If not, do you think incorporating a couple of sessions a week help you sustain your speed longer or do you see more bang for buck in doing more runs or cross training (on the bike?) What is your coach saying on supplementing your training without adding more impact loading. (I guess it turned out to be multiple questions)

[@TimGrose]

Thanks! At least my latest video doing an 800 I was a lot more pleased about and it is the event I have really been trained for of late so perhaps it is a bit "greedy" of me to think I can do well at any distance at any time which has sort of been my "problem" in recent years in not having much focus. It's a very good point about strength and something have started discussing with my coach (Matt). I probably got away without doing any when younger but now being somewhat older I find I just get stiff much more easily and way less naturally flexible - not that I ever was!

[@ianbarnett5051]

The cone could have been potentially life changing, so good job you're so tall.

[@TimGrose]

In hindsight seemed a bit odd why they were there. I did start on the edge as it were but had cleared crossed the line by then. And yeah if it had hit where it sort of was aiming could have been “unfortunate” at best :)

[@suegrose7698]

I commented to Tim it was almost a hurdle ..........not that I know anything !!

[@TimGrose]

@@suegrose7698 Not what you usually expect straight after starting!

[@timtrenholm3698]

When I looked at the run on Strava I had wondered if you had a bad headwind on the 2nd half. Sounds like you just went oxygen debt a weee bit too early, and then the windy sections near the end finished you off. Live and learn kinda day. I'll keep my Stryd pod comments to myself (3yrs in and still love it!).

[@TimGrose]

Yeah the wind was a bit odd in that I only really felt was struggling with it late on back on the race course when was exposed and straight into it. Was too late by then anyway. I think when we went parallel to it was on a narrow country lane with tree cover so lessened the impact. In hindsight I had plenty of markers (even without a Stryd) that set off too quick - like running alongside runners who I knew would be 38 or better for the first mile or so and feeling I was struggling to keep the pace going quite quickly with a steady stream of runners going past me. On the other hand not failed to break 40 (bar one really hot day) for a few years so I felt it was "right" to at least try. It perhaps would have been interesting to see what Stryd made of the wind on this course. The fact that if often gave somewhat "confusing" results was a main factor why I stopped using it.

[@timtrenholm3698]

@@TimGrose The pod was so inconsistent with wind on the VF V1/2 (not sure about the V3), and the AF V1/2 weren't much better. I ended up buying a 3rd party pod clip to help keep it pointed in the right direction. Thankfully the AF V3 has almost no slant to the laces so I use the standard clip. The strength of the Stryd pod is over longer distances where things average out and you don't go crazy over the statistically irrelevant small time slices. I don't think I could race without the pod. I'd either hold back way too much, or go oxygen debt in the 1st 25% of the race and crash and burn.

[@thewingitrunner]

Well done mate. Racing never gets any easier. You got to the finish, maybe not the time you wanted but it will help the engine and endurance. What is your max and average heart rate in a race? Put a sweat band over the watch.

[@TimGrose]

Yeah at one point thoughts of giving up did briefly occur but the only DNF I ever had was when I tore my calf and physically could not have carried on. I haven't really ever the wall in a marathon but it kind of felt like I did in this. Average 144 and max 149. Not as low as the parkrun last week but if was really on would have expected to about 5 bpm more on both counts. Mind you hard to get a high HR if go off too quick. Good idea on sweatband. In the past I used to like the "surprise" at seeing my time only at the end. I think it did effect me mentally to "see" if I had dropped off sub 40 pacers even despite the pacer clearly then being ahead. Funny though as I don't remember being overtaken by them. Also was a bit odd as Phil was with them at 3.5 miles. It looked like they did just make sub 40 yet all the runners I checked around Phil including him were somewhat short so maybe a fair few others did not go so well 2nd half.

[@thewingitrunner]

@TimGrose guess you could check on strava, people you ran with, and look at their run, too. They might have commented on a tough day in the office, too. Your max heart rate got lower with age if you don't mind me asking, or has it always been that low? Samantha Harrison trains with a watch and the races without one. Like you, I sometimes see my current pace of time, and it can play a major effect on my mindset in a race. The less you look, the better it is, get in with a pack, and try to keep with them. Easier said than done, though. Good luck in your next race. There is nothing better than having another lined up after a bad race. 👍🏿💪🏿

[@halmo68]

Magnifique. Bravo 🎉

[@TimGrose]

Thanks!

[@josephgonzalez_]

We all go through phases Tim, and we can all have disappointing races. I’m doing the EMAC v VAC Indoors this weekend and I’m not expecting anything - just a good bit of training. Good to see Nick T there, running well as always.

[@TimGrose]

Yeah thanks I don't think I am miles off - I have been training after all. When younger I would run badly when basically had not been training very much! Maybe a small part of it is trying to compare oneself with the likes of Nick but at least sort of gives inspiration that the likes of him can do it then at least I can better than this! I did look at that meet but had a prior thing and what with the mile tomorrow and the British Masters weekend after it decided probably one race too many anyway. Is it a 3000?

[@josephgonzalez_]

@@TimGrose I’m doing a 3000 and a 1500. Definitely lacking sharpness having only been able to get back to proper sessions recently. Aerobically not too bad though.

[@TimGrose]

@@josephgonzalez_ interesting double! Did a 5000/1500 outdoor double once. Hard work in the 1500 as the 2nd race. I usually did 800/1500 in leagues and thought it better to do the faster race first (so the 800) as it were and it always was that way round. Usually finished with a 4x400 but only a lap to get round - well outdoors. Was good to be able to try different tactics other than head down from the start.

[@josephgonzalez_]

@@TimGrose 3000 first in my case. If my legs are shot after that I may opt out of the 1500. We’ll see.

[@TimGrose]

@@josephgonzalez_ These days I would probably only do one as would be pleased to get round one! Good for experience though especially if you don't think are 100% up for just one big effort.

[@colinm9168]

Interesting you said the last few months been a struggle. Couod it be something as sinole as lacking iron ?

[@TimGrose]

Good point. I never really thought about that. I think some of it (actually a lot of it) is just not getting enough rest/sleep. I have come into some races feeling exhausted and just have really negative thoughts. Sometimes just running too long in days before a race. If I get set by Matt x minutes I might do x + 10 etc etc then overdo strides to the point start to feel done a mini session. For some daft reason before a 5K in Dec I played golf in the AM day before then went for a shake out where felt good and started banging out 7:00 min miles for no sensible reason. Then, sure enough, with an early start next day for the race had no zip at all! I did briefly ponder not going but glad I did. Maybe bit of winter blues, maybe that I am at least 2 kg heavier than where I think I should be. Maybe a bit not fully recovered from being ill just after New Year and so was Sue. Maybe I sort of thrive better off marathon training even though I still think I am "better" at 800/1500. I always struggled a bit in 5K/10K when was younger as I used to think I should be finding it easier than I do as runners who I could beat easily on the track just seemed to roll away. Also in your track days did you sometimes hear a 400m split in an 800 or even a 1500 and thought I can't keep up and mentally switch off. I sort of felt that when I saw a 3:50 K then a 6:16 mile as I then started thinking that this is hard work and I am going to slow down and so I did. As such I think I still do suffer a lot from comparing myself with my younger self and that's always going to end in disappointment. Still I think I am still very competitive and, if nothing else, want to think yeah that was a good race and a bit better than I thought I might. Only in Seville Marathon last year and at Speedway 10K 2 years in recent years did I think yeah I did as well as I could there.

[@colinm9168]

@@TimGrose alot in that answer but sounds like you know where to start. Mini tapering into races rather then golf probably worth looking at for sure 😄.

[@TimGrose]

@@colinm9168 Ironic thing is that I did not play golf the day before this time and indeed haven't played this year yet. Maybe I should :) As such maybe the body just thinks after an easy Saturday (I had the day off in the end) I can now just shut down!

[@vikroy3777]

Retribution hehe, sure I've seen that film, revenge of the Tim? Hehe good luck on the mile, hope you do well!

[@TimGrose]

Not sure I have seen the film myself TBH but seemed like a good word to use. Even if I don't do that well will give me a chance to at least feel am running faster than I did here especially in the second half.

[@richardrendell9363]

Hey Tim I'm trying to get under 7min per mile for 5k, any tips help pls 👍🏻

[@TimGrose]

Err in this case start off too quick and ease back to 7 min miles LOL. Joking aside some sessions like say 6x800 or 5x1K at that target pace with perhaps 90 sec walk/jog recovery. Want to try and do them all more or less the same pace which should mean it starts comfortably hard and ends harder. Other ones like my old stock session of 10x400 with 1 min rest gets the legs going a bit quicker so then 5K pace shoudn't then feel "flat out". Otherwise solid aerobic mileage as often the sessions are the icing on the cake and I don't think you should overdo them especially when we were not as young as we were. Once a week probably best depending on your overall mileage. When am not ill or injured Matt has had me doing 2 sessions a week. One longer intervals, one shorter so am kind of working all paces from 400m "sprints" through to marathon. Also think with 5K it can help to race them fairly often as they aren't like a marathon with just one race at the end of a long block. I think being a bit "rusty" at 10K did not help my cause much here either although TBF it is not my main target right now. Still think I should be able to do somewhat than this however!

[@ThomasLaang]

Nice video Tim. Are you still active on Zwift running? That HR-graph looked a bit weird/jagged for being from a top-of-the-line Chest strap? Does it usually look like that? Mine is a lot more smooth in general.

[@TimGrose]

Good point on the HR. It was "smooth" for about 13 mins and then, as you say, more micro noise. It is the HRM-Pro+ so yeah the "top" one. Checked my 400m reps from last week and looked OK then. Not sure whether coincidence but that first 13 mins (or say 2 miles) was about the time I was running "quite well" and on sub 40 pace whereas after was more of a long slog to the finish so maybe there is an element of it sort of showing my struggles as it were.

[@Arki2019]

I’m generally slower in softer shoes vs firmer ones when feeling rough/tired but a bit faster when feeling fresh.

[@TimGrose]

Ah interesting. TBH not sure that was a real factor or not for me. I am fairly sure wouldn't have done any better in any other shoe. Basically I think I went out too hard and was soon exploring territory as early as half a mile in that haven't been to for a few months. Still that 10K is the furthest have raced in the VF3 - it was all 5Ks last summer otherwise. I ran my best 5K in the VF3 and also a lot poorer one even on the same course. They aren't that new now - approaching 150 miles so maybe have lost a bit of something but I mostly think the something is me not the shoes. I felt was going well in them doing some 400s last week but massive relative difference in pace and indeed how I am running. Bit of a shuffle TBH at this pace but more higher cadence and stride length going about 2 mins/mile quicker albeit not for long.

[@PoetWithPace]

Was this a poor race Tim? I think you done great! Key questions... 1. Did you do specific 10k training for this race? 2. As you say, did you start too fast, so got your pacing wrong? 3. What did your coach predict finish time? 4. What does your Garmin predictor say? Having ran the Goodwood 10k a few years back, it is a super course for a PB as whichever direction the wind is blowing, it all balances out.

[@TimGrose]

It was poor in relation to what I think I should be doing and indeed my last 10K last summer was a comfortable 39 so am 3 mins down. 1. Fair point - not really but equally my general training at moment is mainly aimed at indoor track but still doing decent 50 mpw with some longer interval sessions so always feel I should be able to do a respectable 5K or 10K whatever am training for. 2. Clearly started too fast for how it panned out but similar pace to where was at in the summer. Writing on wall if struggle after just one 6:27 mile. 3. We don’t really discuss specific time goals but the session times I do usually suggests roughly where am at. 4. About 40:45. In hindsight if had tried to do just that and gone out a bit slower might have been able to keep going as I really sort of hit a wall as it were. Might have also helped seeing Phil and reacting off him! Yes can’t really blame the course or the wind. It is a certainly a fast course even on not the very best of weather days you could imagine. Loads of people I know and sometimes can beat were ahead !

[@PoetWithPace]

@@TimGrose it's still a great performance Tim and i'm sure you would of learnt some vital lessons. FYI, when i ran the Goodwood 10k a few years back, the coach i had at the time predicted my finish time within 10 seconds. Wait till you see my Dewsbury 10k video which was same day as this race, albeit hundreds of miles up north and more windy lol

[@TimGrose]

@@PoetWithPace Ah I see you did pretty much the time I was trying to do! Well done. Will need to pick up some tips...

[@robin29991]

Had my fair share of bad races as well. I always try to tell myself that it is still a hard effort banked and good training effect. Though to be completely honest, I'm not sure if that is actually the case, I mean whether bonking in a race is actually beneficial lol. Whatever, don' t beat yourself up over it. Everyone knows you can run better, onto the next one:)

[@TimGrose]

Yeah thanks. I have had many bad races over the years and often can help "sort of" as you always learn. Think with 10K and under perhaps need to do more than I sometimes do as they are still the ultimate training session - witness all those year best splits from even 800m upwards.

[@tworunningbrooms]

Yes definitely set off too quick, as your analysis indicated. If you're training for short track distances, wouldn't you expect less of a good relationship between your 5k and 10k performances? I have the opposite. It takes me a km to really get going. At least I get the mental lift of overtaking people.

[@TimGrose]

I think the frustrating thing is that early pace "should" have been fine especially with lots of early drafting available. I think also combination of being ill at start of year, some niggles meant training has been a bit off and yet still felt tired even so. Mile last night was better but perhaps did show just not fully fit for anything!

[@tworunningbrooms]

@TimGrose I don't think I could run a mile anywhere near that pace. But would be a close call in a head to head over 5k and 10k.

[@TimGrose]

@@tworunningbrooms that is partly why am doing 800-Mile again. They were my best events. Bit more even in recent years when have changed focus up to the marathon but was starting to think need some new challenges again. That said do still enjoy the longer runs. In some ways more relaxing than these short all out efforts.

[@suegrose7698]

I have just asked Tim why it is that at 13.55 these ( very fabulous ) three men are seemingly echoing ' last of the summer wine ' !! - I am hoping that a burst of Mrs G coming out to support and chum Tim on Sunday may trigger some happy hormones ! Tim saying ' I might have to retire ' at at 16.38 ...............hmm ..........I cant see that happening any time soon !!

[@TimGrose]

It did seem way didn't it! Best not retire when can still run me thinks. They say you are a long time retired and what I would do otherwise. Best not take up DIY or crotchet!

[@fabsterun]

First

[@TimGrose]

Yup back on it!

[@fabsterun]

@TimGrose can't dissapoint!

[@TimGrose]

@@fabsterun Always a good sign when you post as then I know the upload & scheduling has worked :)

[@fabsterun]

@@TimGrose haha 😄