British Vietnam War - Operation Masterdom 1945

Britain’s Vietnam War - Operation Masterdom 1945
Join Chris Green (The History Chap) as he explores the story of Britain’s forgotten Vietnam War in 1945.
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Chapters
0:00 Operation Masterdom
4:23 Ho Chi Minh
8:00 Britain’s Vietnam War
10:12 Gate Force
12:30 Operation Masterdom ends
14:20 The History Chap
#operationmasterdom1945 #militaryhistory #britishvietnamwar #vietnamwar
Most of us have heard of the Vietnam War - the war that cost over 2 million lives, including 58,000 US servicemen.
But one country, a traditional ally of the USA, was noticeable by its absence - the United Kingdom.
Despite the urgings of President Johnson (who reportedly said that even “ a platoon of bagpipers would be sufficient”), the British, and in particular Prime Minister Harold Wilson, refused to budge.
And so Britain avoided Vietnam…except that isn’t entirely true.
In an often-forgotten footnote to the end of WW2 the British ended up in Vietnam fighting the Viet Minh and attempting to restore French imperial control.
Even more bizarre, they were assisted by Japanese forces that had surrendered to them.
At the end of World War 2, the British were given the task of disarming the Japanese in the French colony of Vietnam.
Codenamed Operation Masterdom it had 3 objectives:
To enforce the Japanese surrender and repatriate the 30,000+ Japanese military in Vietnam.
To restore civil order until the French returned.
To provide humanitarian assistance to allied Prisoners of War and internees.
Operation Masterdom was led by Major-General Douglas Gracie who was in charge of 20,000 men from the British Indian army.
Due to a diplomatic wrangle, the british were not allowed to enter Vietnam until US general, MacArthur had received the formal surrender of the Japanese Empire.
This created a three-week power vacuum in Vietnam….and into that vacuum swept the Vietnamese nationalist forces, in particular the Communist Viet Minh, led by Ho Chi Minh.
By the time Major-General Gracey arrived in Saigon the country was an administrative mess.
Nominally a French colony but with no French troops or administration in place.
A Japanese army that, following the surrender to MacArthur, didn’t formally exist but had yet to lay down their arms in this part of Asia
And key positions and services in Saigon under the control of Ho Chi Minh’s communist Viet Minh, who regularly cut off the electricity supplies to the city.
Within a month a full-scale war had erupted between the forces of the British Empire and the Vietnamese communists.
Faced with this serious nationalist / communist insurrection, Gracey now enlisted the help of the Japanese soldiers, who were still stationed in Vietnam.
The Viet Minh were in their infancy and up against highly disciplined and experienced British Indian soldiers - adept at jungle fighting - and well trained Japanese troops as well.
By mid- October they had lost 307 of their number killed by the British and over 200 killed by the Japanese.
Over the coming months the communists were pushed out of Saigon and into the surrounding jungles where they refused to engage with British troops.
On the 28th January, Gracey felt that he could leave Vietnam safely in French hands, and by the end of March all British troops had left Vietnam.
The British had deployed 26,000 men and 2,400 vehicles in Operation Masterdom.
They had cleared Saigon and the surrounding areas of the Viet Minh killing 600 in the process for the loss of 40 British and Indians.
Had they been given the resopurces or if there had been the political desire, maybe the British could have prevented the Vietnam War and history would have been very different.
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Disclaimer: All opinions and comments expressed in the 'Comments' section do not reflect the opinions of Chris Green Communication Ltd t/a The History Chap. All opinions and comments should contribute to the dialogue. Chris Green Communication Ltd does not condone written attacks, insults, racism, sexism, extremism, violence or otherwise questionable comments or material in the 'Comments' section, and reserves the right to delete any comment violating this rule or to block any poster from the channel.
Disclaimer: All opinions and comments expressed in the 'Comments' section do not reflect the opinions of Chris Green Communication Ltd t/a The History Chap. All opinions and comments should contribute to the dialogue. Chris Green Communication Ltd does not condone written attacks, insults, racism, sexism, extremism, violence or otherwise questionable comments or material in the 'Comments' section, and reserves the right to delete any comment violating this rule or to block any poster from the channel.

[@ThuanPham-io8zh]

I have been waiting for this! Also, we were taught that Hồ Chí Minh included some passages from the American and French Proclamation to spite them, since to him both of them offered false promises. There is also a joke (which most of the time isn't) in Vietnam is that if we have a choice between being colonized by either Britain or France, the Vietnamese will choose Britain. I've heard some said that if the British had stayed longer, the Vietnam War wouldn't have happened. Thanks for the video from a Vietnamese.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for your kind words and I'm glad that you enjoyed it. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info Chris

[@troysmith5144]

Thuan, the us of the US declaration of independence was not done in spite, but because the US had support Ho Chi Minh during WW2 , as the only effective opposition to the occupying Japanese. There is a very good documentary on this, BBC Time watch from 1998, Uncle Ho and Uncle Sam, posted here kzbin.info/www/bejne/b52af2hpg7uKbdk

[@rob6927]

Everything you said is complete nonsense. There is no way Britain staying would have prevented anything. And most people understand that colonisation is colonisation, doesn't matter if it's France or UK. Or US or China...

[@derrickfield8957]

Keeping Britain out was Wilsons greatest achievement.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment

[@GapBahnDirk]

The other good thing that Wilson did, was to keep the anti-royalist far left at bay at home.

[@robg5958]

Well done Chris. Absolutely fantastic video. I had no idea about such British involvement in Vietnam. Harold Wilson actually made the right decision by keeping British forces out of Vietnam in the 60s. Thanks for this. Your channel is going from strength to strength.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Many thanks, Rob. Based upon both Afghanistan and Northern Ireland, I agree with your comments.

[@olliephelan]

@@TheHistoryChap The British were busy dropping agent orange and napalm in Malaya. And using camps that were called "strategic hamlets " in the US invasion of Vietnam. Brig Kitson and Robert Thompson were both advisors for the US in vietnam and used British tactics A video on support for Pol Pot and Suharto next would be interesting ?

[@reactivearmour5126]

America’s problem in Vietnam was qualitative rather than quantitative. Since America was not using effective methods to win in Vietnam, British reinforcements would not have made an appreciable difference. With the proper methods, the US could have succeeded in Vietnam with a smaller force than they actually deployed.

[@frankanderson5012]

@@olliephelan what a stupid statement to make.

[@olliephelan]

@@frankanderson5012 Are you gonna leave it at that ? Or maybe tell someone why ?

[@JACB006]

I did know something of this having worked in Vietnam for six years and being British …. But you bring the story to life with a very clear explanation. Excellent.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you found it interesting

[@SELondonUSA]

A brief view into this pretty unknown action, following very soon after WW2 ended. Thank you. You might be interested to know that my father was a captain in the 1/19th Hyderabad Regiment, later the 19th Kumaon Regiment. After Burma, he served in Saigon from September 1945 to January 1946. They were part of the 80th Indian Infantry Brigade. After service in FIC, they went off to Makassar, Celebes to oversee the repatriation of Japanese soldiers. My father has a GSM with the S.E.Asia 1945-1946 clasp with his rank, name and number and he was awarded a Mentioned In Despatches for his service in the latter. His medals and original ribbons are now in my care. Dad finally got home in April 1946. He's long gone but not forgotten.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Many thanks for sharing.

[@davidedbrooke9324]

The French behaved appallingly driving people back to the communists. America ignored our advise and fought it like a conventional war, despite the fact of our great experience in jungle combat and insurgencies.

[@TheHistoryChap]

History would probably have turned out differently. How differently is open to question, but certainly different to what happened.

[@rob6927]

Well, the Americans couldn't really use the concentration camps strategy from your playbook against insurgencies when the enemy they faced now had a country in the North which he could use as a base. Although they tried with the Strategic Hamlet Program and still failed 🤷‍♂️

[@malpreece5008]

The French didn’t handle things very well in Indochina, but they had previously made some significant advances in their colony that benefited the local populations. It’s just a shame they didn’t have better PR!

[@malpreece5008]

@@TheHistoryChap Yes, counterfactuals are always interesting. I think if the British had taken the surrender of the Japanese across the whole country in 1945 the Viet-Minh would have found it difficult to mount an effective insurgency against the French, and a pro-French anti-communist government could have taken over after the French departure. As it was the Viet-Minh were sold a lot of weaponry by Chinese Nationalist forces, and given time to consolidate their position in the north, which meant the French were already on the back foot. The French military effort was hampered early on by a lack of resources, while French politicians and communist activities at home further undermined the successful prosecution of the war.

[@fredazcarate4818]

We in the United States are familiar with British operations in Vietnam. And how we lament the fact that neither Britain nor America had the political will to give that talented general the means to obtain ultimate victory. Once again thank you for producing a brilliant video on this semi forgotten campaign. God bless you Sir.

[@chrisholland7367]

Obviously British troops eventually withdrew .However British troops were redeployed to Mayalia to begin a 12 year anti comunist campaign in the British colony were comunisam was taking a foothold from Mayalisan/ Chinese Comunist. Unlike the French and American troops in Vietnam the British and her commonwealth were successful. The campaign was known as the "Mayalian Emergency" it started in 1947 and finished in 1960 .

[@TheHistoryChap]

lad you enjoyed it and thank you for your kind words.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thinking about doing a talk about it. Please make sure to subscribe to my channel so you don’t miss future videos. kzbin.info

[@andrewhart6377]

@@chrisholland7367 The Australians learned the 'Counter Insurgency' fighting strategy in Malaya. They then took the experience to Vietnam which then proved to be at odds with the CIA who had favoured a 'Conventional War' strategy to be employed. The CIA even threatened to kill Australian Operatives such as Major Tiger Petersen for using alternative tactics.

[@nedludd7622]

If the bloody British had not invaded, there would not have been the American imperialist war in Vietnam. Criminal Gracy could not have won in the North as that was the stronghold of the Vietnam.

[@Wolfsschanze99]

Wonderful report, Thankyou

[@darrenmarsh8830]

Amazing video,and a near unbelievable series of events and alliances. Thankyou for this video,please keep up the good work.

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching.

[@jeffsmith2022]

Well done, thank you Chris...

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed it, Jeff. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@hms_thunderchild5456]

Great content and well explained 👏🏻👏🏻

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@leonidaslantz5249]

Another awesome video!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for your valued support.

[@christophernewman5027]

Thanks, Chris! 😊

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed. Please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@peterbarry6517]

Just stumbled across your channel and find the little nuggets you throw in very interesting. Off to view more of your fascinating posts. Keep them coming!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Hope you find a few more nuggets! Have a great weekend.

[@tonyrichmond4015]

Another very enjoyable masterclass!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you, Tony. kzbin.info

[@thesearcher118]

After surviving the Second World War I'm sure those guys were just Thrilled with this.

[@TheHistoryChap]

I bet!

[@JohnEglick-oz6cd]

Yeah! Like a needed hole in the head .

[@chrisholland7367]

Another great piece 👍

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you. By the way, if you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@clivesimpson-wells5952]

Wow , yes had no idea , Brilliant video as usual , Thanks Chris

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure. Look out from my one about private Henry Hook from the film Zulu. That is coming out later today.

[@heathfairbairn2460]

Thank you for another great story, I love the way you tell them!!!!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you very much for your kind words. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@kingsleystraker1]

Came across this video and your channel by accident. What a great story I had no idea the British had been involved In Vietnam and I’ve been there as well. Really enjoyed this video and the way you present the facts. Thanks

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for watching and for taking the time to comment.

[@martinwarner1178]

Brilliant video. Read plenty of Vietnam war, but this was not laid out as full and clear as your video. Thanks. Peace be unto you.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Very kind of you.

[@peterhill2396]

Thanks for this one Chris I had no idea about this it's a bit crazy

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure Peter. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@raycope2086]

Thank you so much. I never knew that about my country. I have the highest regard for our Indian cousins, and our Gurka cousins, so I'm not surprise at their valour and their dicipline. You couldn't make this stuff up. Once again History has surprised me, and that's why I enjoy reading it so much. Thank you for your presentation, research and just jolly entertaining subjest, my friend. I wish you rainbows.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for your kind words.

[@reynardthefox]

What a great story! Thanks 👍

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed it. kzbin.info

[@alastairbrewster4274]

Great story telling , and I love the what if questions.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching. If you haven’t already, please make sure you subscribe to my channel

[@jona.scholt4362]

Another interesting video! I had heard a bit about this watching Ken Burns documentary series on the Vietnam War. Thought I'd post a comment to help the algorithm!

[@TheHistoryChap]

I'm grateful, thanks. If you enjoyed and haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@kiwifruit27]

Thanks for sharing this, Mark Felton also did a short video on this a while ago. An interesting topic

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you.

[@mikenorton3294]

Great. Learnt a lot

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching

[@bigblue6917]

I do know something about the Operation so it was not new to me, I seem to have the same interest in history as you do. But I am pleased to write that you did manage to find a number of details I had not come across before and that your telling of the story of Operation Masterdom was very well done.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you.

[@timfenton5153]

excellent, thanks

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure, Tim.

[@41corsair]

Thank you for this informative video, I had know idea that Britain was involved in Vietnam. Love it that I learn so much from your videos.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Paul, Thanks for your kind words. kzbin.info

[@DarrenMarsh-kx8hd]

Really enjoyed this one....and I'm sharing it with many of my US and Australian mates.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you very much.

[@WisdomShortvids]

great videos thanks

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure. Thanks for watching

[@kevinallsop1628]

I was talking to an ex-navy guy in a pub about 20 years ago. I was in the Aux-RAF and in uniform at the time. He told me about his time in Cambodia during the Vietnam war. Apparently they were flying in helicopters along the Ho-chi-min trail and Gurkhas were going out and doing the business. They'd set up defended landing spots in the jungle along the trail so they could hop up and down the country and back to the aircraft carrier for refueling etc. He pulled a photo out of his wallet which showed being award a medal he "never got" as it was to be kept secret.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences

[@ColonelBummleigh]

Outstanding.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Many thanks.

[@frankknight7968]

No mention of the RAF Regiment who secured Tan Son Nhut airfield in the beginning.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for sharing. How manby were there?

[@beachboy0505]

excellent video 📹

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you. Glad you enjoyed.

[@coult001]

Thank you for this story. It is just like the story of my grandmother (yes, the same who met Paul Kruger as a scared small girl) She was in a Japanese kamp on Java as was my grandfather. She told me the story of being saved by the Ghurka regiment in August 1945. If I remember correctly quite a lot of Britisch forces were sent to Java on behalf of the Dutch Government,

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for watching and adding to your previous account of your family story. You are correct about British forces being sent to Indonesia(Dutch East Indies).

[@stevehand8063]

Thanks.

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure

[@harryshriver6223]

Bravo and kudos to you for covering a little but significant portion of British history and involvement in Vietnam. I had no idea of the conflict between the vietminh and British forces. You correctly surmised who knows if history could have been different under alternative circumstances? Maybe hundreds of thousands of lives would have had a different destiny? Well done, hermano! 👍

[@TheHistoryChap]

harry, thanks for watching and for your kind comment.

[@rdleahey]

Great!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for watching

[@MrNegativecreep07]

Can't imagine what the ordinary British soldiers felt like when told they had to arm and fight alongside Japanese soliders.

[@TheHistoryChap]

The mind boggles! Thanks for taking the time to comment. kzbin.info

[@darrenmarsh8830]

Imagine what former POWs would be thinking, considering the ruthlessness of the Japanese guards.

[@stephen4121]

Probably about the same as they felt when they did the same with German soldiers immediately after WW2. More recently we had the situation where in Afghanistan and Iraq Al-Qaeda was the enemy, but in Syria and Libya we were arming and training them and they were our friends (though they had to keep changing their name to pretend they weren't Al-Qaeda). Or Ukraine where our troops have to pretend Azov, Right Sector, Kraken et al aren't Nazis honest when training and equipping them.

[@saxonstacker7269]

...one crazy operation. Would make for a good TV/ book story. Thanks.

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure, thanks for watching.

[@TheFamousECCLES65]

Well, I have learnt something new today. Thank you.

[@TheHistoryChap]

My pleasure.

[@ianwilkinson4196]

brilliant

[@TheHistoryChap]

Many thanks. Please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@stigmontgomery7901]

A video on the Battle of Bien Dien Phu would be welcomed. Martin Windrow's book "The Last Valley" covers the political context of the French & others in Vietnam as well as detailed coverage of the events around and including the battle. A very good read.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for the suggestion. Studied that battle (a long time ago) when I was at university.

[@joebloggs4807]

Excellent narrative

[@TheHistoryChap]

Mant thanks.

[@samrodian919]

Thanks for that Chris. I was aware of our post WW2 involvement in Vietnam, and when this video popped up to me this morning I thought oh did we actually have anything to do with the Vietnam war (American that is) so I clicked on it and saw this vid. I've watched it fully and I knew we had involved the Japanese soldiers who surrendered to us and of the use of the venerable British Indian Army. Of course we didn't get involved with the American war in Vietnam, we had Harold Bloody Wilson as PM and he was never going to send troops against the communists Vietnamese insurgents, he would have been more likely to help the USSR invade Afghanistan had they wanted to do so lol Keep them coming Chris!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.

[@LEEOC]

Brilliant

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you.

[@andytomlinson6772]

Thankyou, my father told me this story many years ago, he was in Malasia in 1955 as was I.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for watching.

[@nigelhamilton815]

Well done for giving credit to the Indian troops. Their contribution in the Asian war was huge and they often get overlooked.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you

[@EduardoAlmeidaRec]

Fantastic. I love your channel especially for your accent😂😂. kindly make a video about the ghurkas. from a fan from Brazil 😉

[@TheHistoryChap]

Hello Brazil! Great idea. I will add to my list.

[@Daddyclive]

The British Military with vastly more experience in jungle fighting told the Pentagon after being briefed on America's plan said to them that they would never win as they were using WW2 tactics in Asia. And regrettably, it turned out to be true. Read all about Britain's success in the same area in Malaya.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing. Will be telling the Malaya story at some stage in the future.

[@hantykje3005]

Great videos Chris, I've learned a lot about the Crimean War and other 19th century wars. Sometimes I wonder if we will see a 2nd Crimean War any time soon. Have you done videos the emergencies in Malaya, Kenya, the Indonesian confrontation, Radfan, Oman, battle of Mirbat, Northern Ireland or the Falklands? Or do you view it to close up to present time, or perhaps too controversial?

[@TheHistoryChap]

Those conflicts will get covered at same stage. I just have a huge list of potential topics. Stay tuned!

[@jakhaughton1800]

About time this story were told.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for watching.

[@infocpctrainer]

thanks for telling us about this, never knew we, (British army), was involved in Vietnam. As you say, the twists and turns of history.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Ron, I'm glad that you enjoyed. If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info Best wishes, Chris

[@jefferymcculloh5182]

well done! There are several excellent books on this subject, notably, “ In the Ruins of Empire” and Ngyun’s “ 1946”. The British troops did as well as could be expected given the political five way imminent civil war in Indochina in 1945-46. The General Service medal to British troops is highly prized amongst the medal collecting community. Apparently Prince Phillip earned a GSM bar for SE Asia, but never claimed it.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment and share that additional information.

[@gunhojput]

Well thats a story i never knew, now i am enlightened thank you, the indian fellows smiling image reminds me of some sikhs i used to work with on londons buses way back when absolutly smashing fellows they were we used to swap stories of life in our respecive forces but i never heard this one from them much love to all.

[@TheHistoryChap]

John, I'm glad that you enjoyed. Thanks.

[@clivemortimore8203]

My father was an acting Petty Officer in the Royal Naval Patrol Service on board a minesweeper. They were freeing up the Mekong River of mines so larger ships could sail into Saigon. He was put in command of a patrol of Japanese soldiers to restore law and order. He said not against the communist but to keep the various clans of Vietnamese from killing each other. Something that was repeated with the fall of South Vietnam, most the refugees were not fleeing the communist forces but the inter clan fighting. One small point in history which gets forgotten, when Ho Chi Minh's forces marched into Hanoi in 1945 their American OSS agents were at the head of the column with Ho Chi Minh. He was seen as the most reliable leader of the various resistance groups and as he was not clan based. It was a few days later the Americans went back on their word about people freeing themselves of the Japanese would have independence not only of the Japanese but their former colonial masters. The OSS agents were withdrawn, much to their disappointment. Back to my dad and his time in French Indo-China. The minesweepers had cleared a safe lane for the bigger ships, when one of ships went outside the marker bouys. BOOM!!!. The British were ordered not to go into the danger area to rescue the French.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing both the story about your dad and about Ho Chi Minh's entry into Hanoi.

[@georgegoodyear9631]

This was a very useful, but under-reported, insight into the early complexities of Cold War politics. Since you have cast your eye into South East Asia, would you consider analysing and evaluating the role of Britain in the Malaysian and Indonesian conflicts in the 1950s and 1960s?

[@TheHistoryChap]

George, both of those are on my ver-growing list.

[@mariagoodyear4695]

@@TheHistoryChap Thank you Chris.

[@joeblow9657]

Great video. Just a quick note, it's not pronounced Viet Ming with a g at the end. It's Viet Minh with an n sound at the end

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you

[@johnpatterson8697]

7:48 "Killing one Gurkha soldier, while loosing six of their own men" They must have sneaked up on him while he was sleeping.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Ha ha

[@shaungillingham4689]

I knew we had sent the insurgents packing but I didn't know details of the story. I did remember that we had used the Japanese as "auxiliaries", I remember at the end of the second gulf War the Americans decision to disband the iraqi army was met with British opposition as we felt, rightly so, that they could be used to maintain law & order & contain factions. But what did we know? Our imperial history & experience was ignored & Iraq turned into complete chaos. I seldom have a good word for politicians but Harold Wilson was adamant about not sending troops, the US punished us economicaly & we had to devalue the £. The French made a mess of it, what a surprise & the yanks with a conscripted army, were bloody useless as well. Our British & colonial troops were in 1945 extremely well seasoned after learning the rigors of jungle warfare, fighting through Burma for 5 yearsof ww2. Malaysian communists would find out later on. Makes you proud to be British, although many have been brainwashed against our own flag, I say bring back conscription & let's sort out the wheat from the chaff! A chain is only strong as its weakest links, weve got too many weak links. Great vids, someone telling the truth about history, always a breath of fresh air.

[@TheHistoryChap]

HI Shaun, thanks for your encouragement and also thank you for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. Definitely more videos on their way - currently working on the Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902). kzbin.info

[@stephen4121]

"he yanks with a conscripted army, were bloody useless as well" - which accounts for the generally piss poor showing of British army in the 1940s then

[@shaungillingham4689]

@@stephen4121 talking out your arse!

[@paulspice4717]

Great stuff as usual but please don't use the same photos over and over. Better to use one photo for longer on scree, not many times.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Paul, thank you for the feedback.

[@michaeldavison3208]

Prior to Great Britain saying “No” to America’s call for help, a small group of specialists from Far East Command spent time with the America Forces Vietnam - their report regarding both the quality of the troops (the draft had begun in America, the chaos of command and the short period troops would be deployed - no sooner were troops getting experience in the field there one year was up and they were out of the field moving more inexperienced troops in, and so the circle continued) convinced the Government that involvement would be very costly and not just in monetary terms, we had a volunteer armed services (National Service had ended), the American’s were moving from the same to a draft armed force which never brings out the best - many were good but with service limited to 18-24mths, training and understanding of field tactics were difficult to impart.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment, Michael. Please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@indoman8887]

The problem was that the Americans rotated men into existing units “in country” and so no unit cohesion was created, just people coming and going. We Australians were deployed as complete units (combat and support) for 12 months and then replaced by another unit, the only new people brought into the unit were reinforcements to replace casualties. We also had a substantial number of conscripts in the army at the time and no allowances were made to differentiate between regular and national service soldiers. They. operated at the same level of professionalism and competence as the regulars.

[@johnkissam8312]

Vietnamese Nationalism has not been understood by the West going back at least to the Versailles Treaty ending WW I. The idealism of National Self Determination espoused by Wilson was clearly not interested to go beyond Europe. Clenenceau and Lloyd George explained to Wilson in big boy foreign policy, one protects its interests. Enter a young Vietnamese intellectual named Ho Chin Minh who presented a proposal for the Vietnamese people to allowed National Determination. He was summarily dismissed. He found others who would listen. It is true that Ho Chin Minh admired the Enlightenment thinkers particularly John Locke and later the American Revolutionary, Thomas Jefferson. His use of Jefferson’s words in his writing was I think genuine and appreciated. Today Vietnam is a united country that cost hundreds of thousands of lives is not more. And cost tens of thousands of lives of nations that tried to prevent it. I was there.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

[@stigmontgomery7901]

Anyone who thinks that any sort of communist rule is the same as National Determination is seriously misguided in my view. Even if there had been a proper democratic government set up at the end of WW2, excluding the French, then Uncle Ho would have fought against it. It was his (Marxist) way or the highway!

[@littlefluffybushbaby7256]

I think the cost in lives was more like one or two million, and ongoing to some extent. Vietnamese were on both sides, and in the middle. They are often written out of the American war.

[@kevinduong337]

Interestingly, right after the Brits left in 1946, Ho Chi Minh negotiated with the French to remove the Chinese Nationalist Army that had been overseeing Japanese surrender in the North. From there, he had the Vietnamese Nationalist Party hunted down and killed off so his Communist Party would be the dominant party.

[@mikewalrus4763]

At last! Somebody has the guts to print the truth about this little known activity and especially the participants in it! Well done Sir. As a matter of interest there where 72 (I believe) GSM's issued for our share in the Actually American / Vietnam part of this sorry state So yes we where there, both before and during the entire period - you have to feel sorry for the local Vietnamese population who just wanted to live in peace, win their OWN country and in the way they wanted too! As sadly most people throughout the world do - oh the futility of war!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Mike, Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[@michaelreeves8164]

Exactly right. The Vietnamese people were/are traders and farmers. All they wanted was tobe left alone and not be colonized.

[@thanhhoangnguyen4754]

​​@@michaelreeves8164 Well there is a joke if we are to be colonized by the British or the Frecnh we would had choose the British. They know what they are doing better than the French. Especially about trading.

[@philipnorris6542]

An almost completely forgotten episode; there was an identical contemporaneous one in Indonesia (then the N.E.I.), and there were British military fatalities in both: At the going down of the Sun and in the morning we will remember them.

[@davepoole5582]

British troops were "officially and unofficially" in and near Vietnam.... My father and his friends WERE in Vietnam and off the Gulf of Tonkin... Either in the Royal Navy or as ground troops as Embesy staff. Fighting and defending !!!!

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for sharing

[@HarryJamesBooks]

Royal Marines phucked about over there dressed as New Zealanders. It was RMCs that started the hacking barrels off SLRs and crowning them.

[@ba-gg6jo]

Very interesting. Played down, a bit like the Australian involvement in Vietnam.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Indeed it is.

[@eamonnclabby7067]

Mrs C,s da RIP ,served in Indo China...as he described it..he had been a muleteer with the Chindits in Burma then in Vietnam at the end of the war...he held the Vietnamese in very high regard ...

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing. kzbin.info

[@matthabir4837]

One of Peter Kemp's books (or rather, part of one of his books) deals with his participation in that operation.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing

[@nickraschke4737]

I think you’re being very kind to Mountbatten mate. But great video nevertheless.

[@TheHistoryChap]

It's about as kind as I am willing to get! Please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@billballbuster7186]

A good listen as always! I always wonder if it was the American betrayal at Suez that kept the British out of Vietnam in the 1960s? The British did the same for the Dutch in what was the Dutch East Indies. Some 100,000 Japanese troops were kept under arms after the surrender.

[@simonkevnorris]

Suez was the British, French and Israelis colluding to take over the canal. Just more colonial polocies.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Interesting point. Thanks for contributing.

[@billballbuster7186]

@@simonkevnorris The Suez was of critical importance to France and Britain because of trade. Which is why they wanted to keep control. It was the same as if Panama backed by the Russians had grabbed the Panama Canal. Eisenhower wanted to increase American influence with the Arabs. But it backfired big time as Nasser ignored Washington and gave all the credit to the Russians.

[@richardhumphrey2685]

Yes I've always wondered that very same thing.

[@justonecornetto80]

It was undoubtedly a factor although not officially. Harold Wilson despised the US after Suez and didn't hold back in expressing his opinions privately to Labour party colleagues. I believe his private secretary Marcia Falkender referred to it in her memoirs. It didn't end with Wilson either, Ted Heath who had also previously expressed outrage at the US over Suez, denied them permission to use British bases in Cyprus as a logistics hub for Operation Nickel Grass during the Yom Kippur war. In fact, Anglo-American relations remained strained until Thatcher and Reagan came to power.

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

I wonder if my grandad was there as he fought with the Gurkhas?? What would be the best way to find out??

[@TheHistoryChap]

I would approach the Gurkha Regimental Museum in Winchester: thegurkhamuseum.co.uk/

[@simplyphil.photography164]

Hi Chris, the main problem, we had just finished a large war and could not afford to carry on in Asia, The Indian's wanted their freedom from britian, Malaya was anthough hot spot, and as we finished the war, we were bankrupt, and the Empire was spiltting up, never to shine in the east, well thats my thoughts for now.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

[@MrBook123456]

l know some this story you just fill in parts l didn't know thanks

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for watching

[@jonburgess3614]

Great general, tough experienced Indian and British troops, the Viet Minh were put on the run with the assistance of the Japanese . Then the French turn up late mess it all up and eventually do a runner, what’s new ! The Americans who had wanted us out of Vietnam ended trying to sort it out, suffering terribly but ANZAC troops showed what could be achieved with discipline and aggression like they did in Korea.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

[@Cloudman572]

Question then- was the medical and other help to POWs in Vietnam (and elsewhere) delayed or hindered by McCarther's insistence on his surrender timeline?

[@TheHistoryChap]

Good question.

[@johnhickton2922]

Thanks. Great video. Wilson saying no to the US was probably UK's last act of independence.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Interesting point, John. By the way, if you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@richardhumphrey2685]

Surely Britain saying no to the European Union in 2016 was the most recent and far more important act of independence.

[@johnhickton2922]

@@richardhumphrey2685 Yes - it's all going swimmingly :)

[@richardhumphrey2685]

@@johnhickton2922 Yes sure is apart from the endless whinging of the Remoaners....yawn yawn!!!

[@justonecornetto80]

The UK said no to the US again when it refused the US permission to use British bases during Operation Nickel Grass.

[@Chiller01]

I think it’s naive to think the British/Indian army could have repressed Vietnamese nationalism in the long term. They won a few engagements around Saigon but it’s a much bigger country than that. I fought in that war and I can tell you that the desire of my enemy at the time to rid themselves of foreign influence ran deep. I can also attest to the fact that history often takes odd turns. I fought there in 1969/70. My son vacationed there in 2018.

[@TheHistoryChap]

I love how you fought there and your son holidayed there. You are right, history does take funny turns.

[@ulsterinfidel9897]

Britain could have rid the country from communists no problem. Britain had the jungle experience, the intelligence and a outstanding command structure for it. Just take a look at the Malaysian Emergency, in 12 years Britain wiped the communists off the map by tactics and winning the hearts and minds of the locals and we could have done the same in Veitnam with the necessary troops and time.

[@thanhhoangnguyen4754]

@@ulsterinfidel9897 You don't need to go that far to do that my friend. Just do what the France fail to do. Help us with the Independence. Our uncle Ho Chi Minh just want Vietnam to be independence country even to the point of making alliance with USA. I even said if the British stay here longer and tell the French to get out . We would be on right track right now. Because you guy the British know perfectly well your Empire is gone there is no point of continuing maintain it. Unlike the French who have other different ideal. Better the British than the French in this case i said.

[@thanhhoangnguyen4754]

@@ulsterinfidel9897 So all of the problem lead to many dead and destruction of our country are coming from the French refused to let go of their colony after WW2. You know they also making trouble for you as well. At that time De Gaulle dare to announce that Quebec Independence in Canada.

[@colincrowley1280]

My Father was on HMS Warrior for the Indo China Evacuation another part of Britains involvement in Vietnam in 1954

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing.

[@Section5_CdnIntelService]

Things might have turned out better if Britain had refused to turn over control of Vietnam to the French before finally granting independence to India and getting out of Asia all together.

[@thanhhoangnguyen4754]

As a Vietnamese i can sure at least in the administration of a country the British did better than the French. Do vote for it. Better the British than French.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Who knows?

[@MichaelKng-fk5jk]

MacArthur in his want to seem the elite general seems to have actually furthered POW suffering by acting against Mountbatten's relief of POWs. And then; by blocking the British taking the Indochina surrender because he disagreed with colonial power, apart from US colonial power. The British had the Viet Min broken until they were withdrawn, questionable in it's self. How many did MacArthur condemn by his personal views?

[@TheHistoryChap]

Michael, thank you for sharing your perspective. Powerful comments.

[@microtusagrestis2938]

Maybe, If Mountbatten had got his way, and ignored the French, they would have recognised an independent Vietnam and the mass killing that followed would have been avoided.

[@TheHistoryChap]

It's an interesting Alternate History.

[@TheRobby1971]

Post WW2 Indochina certainly provides some topical discussion. Who else knows about the Waffen SS regiment that ended up in Indochina? Reportedly they managed to evade capture by the Russians. They had nothing to lose, as the Russians would probably have killed or worked them all to death. They marched out of Finland/Baltic states in small groups and met up in eventually weeks later in France. The Colonel presented himself to the Legionnaire Commandant stating he had 800+ plus men and where did he want them. They were immediately shipped to Tunisia as Legionnaires eventually forming a effective rapid reaction force in Indochina. Obviously then as French men.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[@JaymesEaston]

While actual Viet Minh date documented photos may be impossible to confirm, I'm intrigued by the group photo at 6:45. It really doesn't matter if it is from 1945, 1955 or 1965. Still, I'm curious if it can be dated by the three submachine guns that appear to be either German Schmisser or Russian Kalishnakov? If German than it could be 1945, but how did they get there? If Russian than not 1945 as they hadn't yet been produced in great number.... Thank You.

[@TheHistoryChap]

thank you for watching

[@jonmeek3879]

Agreed British victory would have taken place

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thank you for taking the time to comment

[@9Curtana]

I saw a brief clip on an old film. A Japanese soldier standing on guard outside of a jungle shack presenting arms to a British officer who returns the salute with his swagger stick. I have also heard of a Japanese officer receiving something like the MBE. Has anyone got anything to add to those comments.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Hadn't heard of either of those stories. has anyone got more info?

[@9Curtana]

@@TheHistoryChap I am just going on memory. Both were just snippets of information. Certainly,when I told people of the Japanese soldier and the British officer I was asked what I was drinking at the time. Regarding the Japanese officer receiving his award; I believe that it was on one of the island groups either Indonesia or the Philippines.

[@AmericanExpatInThePhilippines]

Interesting. I knew none of this.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for watching.

[@stigmontgomery7901]

Another good video. I had understood that Britain kept out of the final Vietnam war because of the required military commitments to it's ongoing wars against communist insurgents in Malaya and Borneo? I've always felt sorry for the average Vietnamese having to cope over the years with invasions by the Chinese, French, Americans and ultimately the communists when left to themselves they had a pretty well-ordered and prosperous society.

[@TheHistoryChap]

I have a friend whose parent's were Boat People. War is not just about soldiers but about civilians whose lives are turned upside down.

[@mkgaming5823]

The thing is , Britain nearly defeated the Viet insurgents sadly due to French and US meddling we had to leave The French then came, fucked all of our hard work and then had to be bailed out by the US who then continued to fuck it up

[@nowthenzen]

Vietnamese independence from Imperial France was a forgone conclusion, it was only a matter of how. Politically like India from Britain or after a people struggle like Algeria from France or in the course of a 30 year war like Vietnam actually happened.

[@TheHistoryChap]

I agree. The destination will be reached, the challenge is how you get there.

[@nowthenzen]

@@TheHistoryChap is History the inevitability of circumstance?

[@hirepgym6913]

I know British troops who were in Vietnam late 60's and 70's unoficially they were Bomb Disposal from Nothern Ireland who served as instructors.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for sharing.

[@aislinnkeilah7361]

A very under reported historical account.

[@TheHistoryChap]

thanks for watching my video

[@mjxw]

What's the historian's consensus on the fighting quality of the British Indian Army in the period? Similar to the IJN and regular British units, better, worse? I ask not to cast any aspersions on anyone - it was a long time ago and under peculiar circumstances - just out of curiosity.

[@dulls8475]

My understanding is we started off badly and then improved to be more effective in the jungle than the Japanese. Better tactics and better logistics. The British had to learn the jungle from scratch.

[@TheHistoryChap]

My understanding is that they ended the war as a very effective fighting force against the Japanese. kzbin.info

[@denisrobertmay875]

Pre war the British Indian Army was modelled of one regular British infantry battalion to two Indian. India at the time meant the whole Sub Continent. The Indian battalions were recruited on a regional/ethnic basis. British Officers served in Indian Regiments. The Corps(Artillery, Engineers, Medical, Signals, Ordnance, Service etc....) had a larger portion of Indian Officers. With the massive increase during the war the proportion of British troops in the Indian Army dropped accordingly. Gurkhas from Nepal served in British Indian Army Brigades and Divisions. Nepal independently declared war on Germany in September 1939 and Royal Nepalese Army Battalions served alongside the British Indian Army. I was brought up in Britain in an "Army" Family ( My father completed his 22years as an RSM RE in 1923). By 1937 he was back in Aldershot as a Civilian Garrison Engineer as schoolchildren we confused the Brothers (a Seminary School) by speaking "Army Urdu" amongst ourselves. In August '45 I was in "The Buffs" destined to join 14th Army's successors when the War ended and I received a deferment.

[@simonallen2199]

oh course the British Government / People were sick of war by now and that probably explains there withdrawal. Although i can imagine senior military leaders telling them other wise but being rebuffed. The rest is history.

[@TheHistoryChap]

And we were skint!

[@cupholder7758]

Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist who travelled to Washington D.C. and pleaded with congress to order the French to vacate Vietnam. When Congress refused, Ho had no choice but to turn to Communist countries.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

[@littlefluffybushbaby7256]

He was one of the founders of the French Communist Party and in 1930 founded the Vietnamese Communist Party. Yes, a nationalist, hoping for help and recognition from the USA, but also a communist. It wasn't an incidental extra. I'm not saying he should be hated because of that, just that it was also a key part of who he was and it informed his revolutionary anti-colonialist struggle.

[@mercomania]

From your excellent film, it doesn't seem like a British Vietnam war but a British Indian Army Vietnam war.

[@TheHistoryChap]

Good point, although both politically a British effort and officered by Brits too.

[@paganphil100]

Merry Frog: This was before Indian independence (from Britain) so the Indian troops were technically British.

[@mercomania]

@@paganphil100 No, they were not "technically British". They were Indian Dominion troops. They had no right of abode in the UK, they were British Empire troops.

[@khankrum1]

Trust the French to balls things up! "Poppy" McCarthur was no better!

[@TheHistoryChap]

A lot of "what if's?" but who knows how things might have turned out.

[@greggweber9967]

McArthur's ego?

[@TheHistoryChap]

I wouldn't dream of saying that! :) If you haven’t already, please make sure to subscribe for future videos. kzbin.info

[@philvanderlaan5942]

There was no actual McArthur, there was just a massive Ego in a Uniform, this was called Dugout Doug .

[@philvanderlaan5942]

@@TheHistoryChap I would!!! I almost was beaten by my grandfather ( a U.S. Navy Seabee in WWII) for reading a book called American Caesar and saying I thought he was a hero. My grandfather was not prone to violence but he hated Dugout Doug and thought the only thing he ever did was get people killed.