Why the IRA Lost The Irish Civil War 1922-1923 (4K Documentary)

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The Anglo-Irish Treaty and the withdrawal of Great Britain from almost all of Ireland was supposed to be a big step towards full Irish independence. But the pro-Treaty Irish Free State and the anti-Treaty IRA couldn't bridge their differences and so the Irish Civil War broke out. With further support from Britain and drastic measures, the Irish National Army was able to quell the IRA uprising that didn't have the popular support they previously enjoyed.
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» SOURCES
Coogan, Tim Pat & Morrison, George. The Irish Civil War, (London : Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1998)
Cottrell, Peter. The War for Ireland: 1913 - 1923, (Oxford : Osprey Publishing, 2009)
Enright, Seán. The Irish Civil War: Law, Execution and Atrocity, (Newbridge : Merrion Press, 2019)
Foster, Gavin M. The Irish Civil War and Society: Politics, Class and Conflict, (New York, NY : Palgrave and Macmillan, 2015)
Hopkinson, Michael. Green Against Green: The Irish Civil War, (Dublin : Gill and Macmillan Ltd, 1988)
Irish Independent, (17/03/1922)
Kissane, Bill. The Politics of the Irish Civil War, (Oxford : Oxford University Press, 2008)
Lewis, Matthew. “The Fourth Northern Division and the Joint-IRA Offensive, April-July 1922”, War in History, Vol. 21, No. 3 (July 2014)
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»CREDITS
Presented by: Jesse Alexander
Written by: Mark Newton, Jesse Alexander
Director: Toni Steller & Florian Wittig
Director of Photography: Toni Steller
Sound: Toni Steller
Editing: Toni Steller
Motion Design: Toni Steller
Mixing, Mastering & Sound Design: above-zero.com
Research by: Jesse Alexander
Fact checking: Florian Wittig
Channel Design: Yves Thimian
Contains licensed material by getty images and AP Archive
Maps: MapTiler/OpenStreetMap Contributors & GEOlayers3
All rights reserved - Real Time History GmbH 2022

[@TheGreatWar]

Watch 16 Days in Berlin on Nebula: nebula.tv/videos/16-days-in-berlin-01-prologue-the-beginning-of-the-end

[@chrissanchez2998]

Awesome video I enjoy the history

[@JaMeshuggah]

OHHHHH YOU KNOW IT LADDIE!

[@supportthom7308]

@@chrissanchez2998 axggbk

[@imastaycool]

No mention of how Ireland was threatened with "immediate and terrible war" if we did not consent to partition, eh.

[@johnroche7541]

@@imastaycool Historians still debate if Lloyd George was bluffing or not. Remember the Irish delegation came back late(a couple of hours) with the acceptance of the Treaty proposals. I wonder what was going through Lloyd George's and the rest of the British cabinet's minds when it looked like there was going to be no show from the Irish delegation. One of the Secretaries of the British named Shakespeare(seriously) who was there later stated that the Irish fell for Lloyd George's bluff. He stated if the Irish refused it would just mean more long drawn out dialogue,discussions and meetings. Look at Brexit for example. Have you heard of the "Chanak Crisis"? This happened in October 1922 when it looked like Britain was going to get involved in a major war against Turkey. Cooler heads on the ground defused the situation. Both Lloyd George and Churchill wanted war but the British public were horrified at the prospect of war after sacrificing a generation in WW1. The coalition government under Lloyd George fell from power. Only New Zealand of the Dominions would have supported Britain if she went to war with Turkey. Getting back to Lloyd George and Ireland. He cooled down from his threat of war as in the House of Commons he reminded what size of forces had to be put into the field in South Africa(Boer War) and that Ireland was very mountainous which favoured guerilla warfare. Before the outbreak of the Civil War Tom Barry put forward a proposal to attack the remaining British if they did not depart within 72 hours. This proposal was defeated by a solitary vote. Both the Irish and British agreed to give each other 72 hours warning if there was going to be a resumption of hostilities hence the time frame of Lloyd George's threat.

[@jessealexander2695]

To all of you who think the timing is some sort of statement: it isn't. Also, if you watch the video you will see it is not about the Anglo-Irish War/War of Irish Independence, but the Irish Civil War. When two Irish factions who wanted independence fought each other.

[@samwill7259]

A civil war that never would have happened without the British monarch. Lizzie is responsible for every ounce of blood spilled on ireland over the past 500 years, just like her ancestors.

[@seanivan5421]

Still funny timing

[@jessealexander2695]

@@seanivan5421 Planned long ago.

[@extrahistory8956]

@@jessealexander2695 I've been a long time watcher, so this occasion also reminded me of when your Napoleon's Invasion of Russia series began within a week of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Funny how that coincidental timing works sometimes.

[@jessealexander2695]

@@extrahistory8956 Yes, history is never far from us.

[@Kevc00]

One of the reasons the National Army was so successful was the sheer amount of First World War veterans. Most of the Irish regiments of the British army were disbanded following the signing of the Anglo Irish Treaty. Most of the soldiers from these regiments joined the new National Army, to the point that nearly half of the army were First World War veterans. This gave them a massive advantage when waging a mostly conventional war, whereas anti Treaty forces had little experience in this kind of combat.

[@TheNinyo77]

Ffs the ex service men from the ww1 joined the IRA in their droves 1st then morphed into the pro treaty army !!! Tom Barry being the more famous of them !!! The IRA is still here too this present day , and still prepared to fight ,albeit politically now .

[@ayakaham1041]

Just like Iraq, after 2003.

[@Minime163]

Plus the IRA didn't have nearly as much support among the public because they went against their democratic mandate

[@johndoe-ss9bz]

The Free State and the National Army had the support of the Majority of the Irish population. The Irish Civil War had more Irish Citizens killed, than in the war of Independence.

[@safeysmith6720]

@@ayakaham1041 How?

[@basichistory]

As an Irishman I found this to be an excellent take on the Irish Civil War. Well done.

[@xAntoIRL]

nice channel mate

[@Beanbag777]

Yes and he done a fantastic job at pronunciation !!!

[@SiVlog1989]

It shows how lacking in talking about Irish history that it is in the UK that I was unaware of historical events like the Easter Rising, the Irish War of Independence, the Irish Civil War and the 3 Bloody Sundays (Dublin in 1920, Belfast in 1921 and Derry in 1972) in Irish history amongst other things until I came across John D Ruddy's videos on these matters. It doesn't say much for history being taught in the UK that our dark past in Ireland is either whitewashed or outright ignored

[@tehok]

@@SiVlog1989 no country wants it known the horrible things they did

[@Dilley_G45]

Jesse is presenting very well and the content is top notch.

[@johnmccann5725]

Thank you for covering this sad and divisive episode in Irish history. De Valera ultimately triumphed via the ballot box in the 30s despite being one of the key drivers of the civil war. The modern Irish political parties largely draw their origins from this conflict. Goos summary of a complex affair. Cheers

[@galboy7899]

My Grandaddy didn't like December Valera

[@gabespiro8902]

@@galboy7899 I think your grandfather might have had a point

[@jyazman]

@@galboy7899 my grandfather worshipped him... When the pd's split and had their first public meeting in his cumann he rented the room next door filled it with speakers and played "come and follow Charlie" for the duration of the meeting 🤪

[@ardshielcomplex8917]

And De Valera wasn't Irish, he was American and insulated from Brit repercussions other than imprisonment and he knew it. Easy to be brave with other Men's lives in his position.

[@robtherub]

@@ardshielcomplex8917 ah ha, was going to say, doesn't sound like an irish name, like varadkar or whoever that eu technocrat fascist who seems to be still in government despite being blatantly voted out by the irish.

[@MrRugbylane]

The series on the Irish War of Independence and Civil War are absolutely top class.

[@craigsorensen7425]

Its called rebellion

[@MrRugbylane]

@@craigsorensen7425 yes, if you like.

[@johnmorgan9435]

To us in the Republic of Ireland we had a 'War of Independence 1921 -22. I was on parade today at the last Centenary Ceremony of the year: the handing over of Royal Barracks to the Free State, renaming it as Collins Barracks.

[@johnmorgan9435]

sorry War of Independence 1919 - 1921

[@patrickfitzsimons753]

You’ve got independence and Lost a lot of Lives and then give it up to the EU very strange

[@johnmorgan9435]

@@patrickfitzsimons753 the majority of people in our Republic are happy with EU Membership. We are even more convinced that we have made the right decision when we see how difficult life for ordinary people in the UK has been since leaving the EU.

[@danwalker4739]

The video was about the civil war.

[@octavianhughes4493]

Truly stellar timing lads

[@thesupertendent8973]

Indeed brother

[@Ramzi1944]

Why?

[@HebaruSan]

@Trashthlete Why is that a problem?

[@aheat3036]

@Trashthlete This has nothing to do with the Queen’s death!… She wasn’t even born back then!

[@sorceroousoak813]

Lmfao they MUST have planned this

[@ShahbazBokhari]

A far too little discussed part of Irish history that is so often misunderstood by many, wonderful to see a concise timeline.

[@nozrep]

yah, i do not understand it at all. Even after watching this. But I am glad that I learned more details about its history. And I love these sorts of documentaries even when I still do not fully understand all of the ins and outs, so to speak.

[@ThePheasantPluckerr]

Not talked about enough especially here in Ireland. Hard to imagine it was only 100 years ago

[@geoffpoole483]

@@ThePheasantPluckerr It seems to be a complex matter. A bit ironic that Dev triumphed at the ballot box despite being on the losing side in the civil war. Perhaps it isn't talked about because the event brings up a lot of pain and disagreement.

[@foraustralia2558]

@@geoffpoole483 He also lost badly at the ballot box and the Free State was ratified by the election British economic was helped Dev ...but that was a whole other thing

[@croatoansounds]

I just watched another 4 part series on the Troubles. I was completely blown away, I knew next to nothing about how intense and longterm this whole thing was… as someone who loves history, I can’t believe that basically none of that history was taught in school, at least where I was in school. I’m in the U.S., so I wouldn’t expect EVERY detail, but all I learned in school was that there was a time called The Troubles, that the IRA existed, bombs exploded, then somehow peace happened. I honestly can’t believe that a modern war basically, in a western country, was completely left out. We learned TONS of British history, all the way through the 20th century, but not stuff about Ireland and definitely not North Ireland specifically. Anyway, I’m glad these videos are online as this is stuff worth knowing

[@thunderstruck1392]

My grandparents fled Cork for America at that time, their siblings scattered. Very nice work, I'll be sure to look at more of your content. liked and subscribed...

[@brianmccarthy5557]

My paternal grandfather left Cork in 1913 right after graduating from the Christian Brothers School a few terms after Michael Collins. My grandmother left Cork in 1923. She had been involved in the Revolution and both had many relatives involved in the struggles, many of them prominent, as we were both ancient Irish families and had strong Fenian ties. That's MacCarthys and O'Donovans from Cork City and Skibbereen. Who are your people? Mine aren't really scattered at all, we know where our people are for the most part.

[@shanecoleman5952]

"It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins, and it will be recorded at my expense." - Eamon de Valera

[@michaelsinger4638]

He was kind of right about that.

[@brownsey1]

That quote was attributed to de Valera by somebody else. Tim Pat Coogan used it in his book and it was subsequently used at the end of the Michael Collins film, but there's real source for de Valera having actually spoken those words. TPC notoriously anti-Dev.

[@gaelicfemboy7763]

Easy to say when Collins died before actually being in government. Without any knowledge of the decisions he would've made had he lived people can project their fantasies of an ideal Irish leader on to him.

[@johnroche7541]

Michael Collins outlined his plans for the economic and cultural revival of Ireland in "The Path To Freedom" which several excerpts have been quoted from. Sean Lemas l(Taoiseach) who was a veteran of 1916,) Easter Rising,Irish War of Independence(took part in Bloody Sunday) and Irish Civil War. He admitted that some of the economic principles which improved Ireland in the mid 1960's was to some degree based on Collins economic programme. If he had lived I dont think there would have been the harsh draconian death penalty authorised by the Free State government during the Irish Civil War. He always felt that there would be future confrontation with the British.

[@nullset560]

@@brownsey1 TPC got it from the Collins biography published in the 60's , as far as I can tell it's never been sourced.

[@danboland3775]

Great video Jesse, thanks for covering our little known civil war with such accuracy and detail

[@MatteoAdler]

Always had great admiration for Cathal Brugha, he fought all his life for Ireland, took bullets, he followed his ideal till the end and died a martyr. The ultimate Irish Patriot in my view! Visiting Dublin couple of years ago i spent a whole day touring all these important spots travelling back in time with my mind to those years was fascinating. Always a fantastic job with the episodes! Cheers from Italy!

[@antseanbheanbocht4993]

It's amazing the amount of patriot graves in glasnevin never even get a flower. Ernie O Malley being one. His son wrote a book about him, "No surrender here" he was surrounded by free staters in a south Dublin house, when asked to come out he shouted " No surrender here" and ran out shooting, he was shot 20 times but survived into his 60's..

[@shredder9536]

Brugha was a legend.

[@mrmoose-bt6ns]

i know his great grandson, hes a park ranger in sligo

[@j.kearney484]

As an Irish person, I would hesitate to call him the 'ultimate patriot', nor would I call anyone that; he was just a man. Cathal Brugha is one of the Anti-Treaty figures I do respect. He didn't want the situation to break out into a conflict, and was ignored by his men when he ordered them to abandon the Four Courts. In retrospect, the Anti-Treaty position was arrogant, impatient and unnuanced, but like most of Irish history, it's messy.

[@allancarey3273]

Great video guys, really appreciate the quality and lack of taking sides

[@jameswyre6480]

Excellent even-handed episode. Thanks for the hard work of everybody involved!

[@conorsheedy1169]

11:35 Interestingly, they named the new street built through the rubble of 'The Block' after him. Cathal Brugha Street was built through the site of a Church destroyed in the Civil War, next to where Cathal Brugha was mortally wounded.

[@conanobroin1687]

You've done a fantastic job here guys. Absolutely superb. My grandfather, Séamus Ó Broin, fought in both the War of Independence (Anglo-Irish War) and the Civil War on the anti-treaty side under Frank Aiken, and was captured, jailed, escaped from prison, captured and jailed again. Hugely impressed by your work here.

[@charleskristiansson1296]

Yoiur grandfather is a hero! I pray Scotland will gain her independence again.

[@michaelhart7569]

​@@charleskristiansson1296 They can have it when they vote for it. But they're not having a vote every year. Once a generation is sufficient. They might get it done if someone actually asked the English on having independence from Scotland. Be careful what you wish for.

[@charleskristiansson1296]

@@michaelhart7569 So many lies about Brexit. Scotland and England are poles apart when it comes to almost every apsect of humanity. I'd say that's reason enough. It can't come quickly enough now for many Scots.

[@lordbezzington8435]

@@charleskristiansson1296 what are you talking about?

[@michaelhart7569]

@@charleskristiansson1296 ​ They've been saying that all my lifetime. (My father at 89 is still a proud Scot. I spent much time there in my student days, drinking with locals, climbing mountains, happily drinking more with locals.) Maybe they can overcome their somewhat authoritarian communist political tendencies with independence, and once again be the kind of nation that bred the likes of James Watt and so many others. But they have to vote for it, knowing what it entails, not just listening to the shrill voices of the separatists. But it will come at a cost, a real need to stop playing the victim and make changes. Many English would grant them independence in a heartbeat. Brexit, since you mention it, was really about the English wishing to be free of surrounding countries leeching off them and yet reviling the English at the same time.

[@Paddythelaad]

Why does no one talking about this ever mention the Irish boundary commission? the 6 counties were only "meant" to be temporarily in the UK and the boundary commission was a large part of why the treaty was viewed as a stepping stone to full independence.

[@johnroche7541]

David Lloyd George delivered everything Carson and Craig wanted before the Irish War of Independence even concluded. With the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and the opening of the Northern Parliament the interests of Ulster Unionists was safeguarded. One does not need to have the benefit of historical hindsight to realise that any agreement or settlement between Britain and Ireland would exclude Northern Ireland. David Lloyd George convinced Collins and Griffith that Fermanagh and Tyrone with its Catholic majority's at the time would be eventually incorporated in the Free State and that the other 4 counties would not function and they too absorbed into a one Parliament Ireland.

[@jackietreehorn5561]

It was economic interest to the Brits at the time, the north had the biggest linen industry and ship building infrastructure in whole of Europe

[@eugenemurray2940]

Newfoundland was forced to unify with the rest of Canada...

[@dannymac1793]

Yeah that's when the Brits fell about the place laughing, temporary border..

[@markpower9081]

It was a kick to touch to get the Treaty over the line. I'm not really sure how seriously it was taken.

[@Jack-cx8tj]

They might have many inaccuracies, but “The Wind that Shakes the Barley“ and “Michael Collins“ are great movies about the war and the civil war, they are played by Cillian Murphy and Liam Neeson

[@scottmccrea1873]

I liked "Michael Collins." I'd actually never heard of it. I thought it was a new movie. So I'm asking myself, "Wow. All these actors - Neeson, Julia Roberts - look fantastic!"

[@Dazbog373]

Wind that Shakes the Barley is a masterpiece

[@sidschukowv6677]

Funny enough i just watched both today before reading your comment hahah

[@Kerwin-Kendell]

I agree Jack. Michael Collins is a great film (despite probs with it). Films about this subject made me want to learn more about the history of the people.

[@leant6487]

Wind That Shakes The Barley has been my fav movie since I was a kid. The Civil War was a tragedy, in reality Collins and some were sympathetic to the anti-treaty, but eventually a very conservative and blood-thirsty leadership took over...

[@hlynnkeith9334]

Jesse, You are my favorite narrator. You speak so clearly. My compliments to your sound man.

[@doowopfanuk]

great, informative and objective focus-really enjoyed listening to this.

[@dmc9487]

As an Englishman, (with a number of origins) I find this absolutely fascinating. Quality viewing indeed. I served in the British armed services during the troubles. My experiences from that are for another day. I wish the people of Ireland all the best for the future.

[@sodabake]

Thanks for your service.

[@mijicmugendo]

So you where part of the occupation force. You must be proud 🤦‍♂️

[@russell5414]

@@mijicmugendo Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the British army is the national army not a occupation force.

[@mijicmugendo]

@@russell5414 You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

[@russell5414]

@@mijicmugendo It's a fact like it or not.

[@mitzyismad]

As an Australian of part Irish descent, this has been the most informative presentation on the Irish conflict I have found. I particularly liked Jesse Alexander's style and presentation.

[@3storiesUp]

So a video on KZbin is the most informative presentation you have found .. wow.

[@paulmcdonough1093]

british occupy ireland forever a fact

[@oliver5479]

as a pelican of 6/8ths turtle descent, I approve this comment

[@user-wn1dl3kk6r]

It isn't an informative presentation

[@larrydanadavid2435]

more begrudgery

[@stevebarrett9357]

Well done, Jesse. Another great and informative documentary.

[@yeatnumber1Dmuncher]

"Jesse, we need to make an amazing documentary"

[@DominikFleury]

Hey Jesse Your fiery open about the Anglo-Irish war has once again captivated me about a conflict my history education had completely overlooked. Will you do a piece about it later on? I would very much like to watch it. Greetings from Switzerland

[@TheGreatWar]

we made several episodes about the Anglo-Irish War

[@jackieking1522]

Thank you. Seems strange to reach the end of my life finding out bits of family history everyone seemed so confused about.

[@michealoflaherty1265]

Great video, well done Jesse and team. As Brendan Behan said "the first item on any republican agenda is the split". The fact that the divide was political (pro/anti treaty) as opposed to religious or geographical (Irish v British) meant that, in some cases literally, brother fought brother in a pointless war that achieved nothing.

[@johnroche7541]

I know the point you are making but I dont know about your assessment "a pointless war that achieved nothing". Supporters of the Free State could argue that they implemented the majority democratic right of the people and institutions that supported the Treaty. That democracy was on the Free State side. Established a functioning government in the political vacuum left after the British evacuation of southern Ireland. That Ireland as a Dominion would control it's own domestic affairs. Did not defeat but military degraded the military capabilities of the armed forces(Anti-Treaty IRA) at variance with the Free State and no longer a military threat to its establishment. Brought to a conclusion a turbulent period from 1916-1923. Ensued that for the forseeable future the gun would be removed from Irish political affairs. That Irish citizens could get on with life and look to the future without the threat of conflict. That the Free State as a member of the League of Nations could take it's own individual place

[@johnroche7541]

That the Free State as a member of the League of Nations could take it's own individual place on the world stage among other nations.

[@michealoflaherty1265]

@@johnroche7541 It occurred to me after the comment that I had not made my point, exactly right, and you have pointed to the deficiency just there. Many, many great things, as you described, were achieved after the war, but not because of it. Essentially the civil war just reset the country back to where it was when it started. There was no alternative to the free state and anyone who thought that we were going to kick the British out of the whole island militarily was deluded. So the Republicans, (Dev) , were fighting for the right to go back to fighting and losing to the British, which is bit that was "pointless". I think my original comment, while lacking nuance, was an easier read than this long winded explanation 😊😊. Thanks for your reply. Great video, wasnt it!

[@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013]

And the person who lead the losing side of that war happily told Churchill that if he'd been in charge at the time, Ireland never would have left the commonwealth. It's more than a bit horrific that someone with as few principles as this gets to be one of the nation's founding fathers.

[@liam-398]

The war was not pointless in that sense there is a lot of economic policy involved in the decision on how the borders were drawn and how the autonomy of Ireland would be decided. These were bigger consequences people tend to fail to mention/comprehend.

[@philiolynott4886]

This is amazing. As an Irish man who sat through many a class on this subject, this is very comprehensive analysis of the main points of the Civil war. Always a touchy subject, some would rather forget it happened at all.

[@Paul5520]

Class? Really? They don’t deal with this Irish history in school here in Ireland in my experience.

[@ofarelj]

Excellent job on explaining the main causes of the war. Very balanced and informative.

[@leedwyer161]

My grandfather who fought in a flying column said they always referred to themselves as "the voulnteers" not IRA

[@yourenotwrong3511]

What column was that Lee?

[@jakenconor]

He must have been in the Volounteers pre the first Dail in 1919.

[@threestepssideways1202]

My two great Uncles fought on different sides of this conflict, my Grandfather was too young. For them it came to a head when Michaels National Army unit had tracked down Stephens IRA unit to a farmhouse in Co.Cork. It was surrounded and calls were made for their surrender, my great Uncle Stephen shouted out that they would not. Michael recognised his brothers voice and parlayed and pleaded for them all to come out or the men with him would surely kill them all. They didn't. My Great Grandmother never spoke to again or forgave Michael when the details came out. My mother conveyed this story to me, and she said that her Uncle Michael was a man who sorrow hung over for the remainder of his life. Civil War is a truly terrible thing.

[@peterlyons8793]

Thank you for sharing your family's tragic story.

[@uralbob1]

Jeez, this story is complicated! I’ll need to watch it again! Great, compelling narrative ! Thanks.

[@manofaction1807]

Excellent briefing, as usual to your top notch content.

[@paganjew0108]

My father-in-law fought in the Irish Civil War. He would be 117 years old today.

[@andrewwatkins9307]

Excellent documentary series. Well done.

[@robsmithadventures1537]

Its rare you see a history video on KZbin that provides academic sources and objective analysis. I also enjoyed how long the video as it gives a comprehensive overview of this short but deadly and bitter conflict.

[@mijicmugendo]

But its wrong in so many ways

[@bjcass]

Thank you for covering this

[@marks_sparks1]

A very well made documentary by the Great War. Plenty of research material was used here.

[@TheHypnogog]

Masterful big picture presentation, as always.

[@m1942g]

Great documentary! Very cogent explanation of the Civil War. Thank you!

[@jquill6]

Thanks Jessie, great program

[@lawell2006]

An excellent documentary, well explained and taught me and Irishman a few things. Well done.

[@Irish0Neill]

Very interesting. Some great footage. I feel like your videos should make up History curriculum.

[@JiggerPick]

Thank you, Jesse and your team.

[@emmetoconnor5105]

impressive in presentation and well-researched

[@SeanONilbud]

A brave man to make this video. You couldn't get any kind of discussion on this when I was a kid. Too many dead bodies still too fresh in the memories of the living. Brother against brother.

[@jimmyryan5880]

How old are you

[@biggiesmalls3096]

That’s what my mothers told me, you just didn’t speak about these things back then

[@gomey70]

Yes, one notable aspect of the civil war was how quickly people moved on from it. Everyone had had enough of violence by then and it was time to get the country moving and let sleeping dogs lie. Though there were still arguments in pubs up and down the country for many years I'm sure.

[@thehsushoe]

The timing is impeccable. People must know more about this.

[@thesupertendent8973]

Even hundreds of years later, we always win

[@thesupertendent8973]

Even hundreds of years later, we always win

[@lilseansolo9678]

I feel like the troubles doesn’t get talked about because the IRA wrecked the British

[@cammysmith7562]

@@lilseansolo9678 by the 1990s the IRAs ability to wage guerrilla warfare didn’t exist due to low public support and infiltration by British secret service which is why the moved to bombings of civilians on the UK mainland. Either you know nothing about the troubles or you are just making silly comments for the sake of it.

[@johnroche7541]

@@cammysmith7562 Forgive me but you are incorrect. The IRA were still capable of waging a guerilla campaign in Northern Ireland. A fact the British military confirmed. South Armagh was still a hotbed of Republican activity by the time of the ceasefire. Despite all the double events etc thevLIRA was still CE(Combat Effective) and still an undefeated army albeit guerilla in the field.

[@ABadRash]

Exquisite timing, very topical

[@thomasreilly4229]

Thank you for providing this well rounded, unbiased telling of the Irish civil war. As an Irish person with a casual interest in our history I have not yet found a source like this that is as gripping as it is informative. This along with the videos on the war of independance are an incredible resource for educating the masses. Hopefully our history teachers make the most of them.

[@tommercury3349]

I just listened to a short part, all untrue, misleading, factual inaccurate. True Irish history is very different,

[@johnroche7541]

@Val O'Connell I totally respect the works of the late Michael Hopkinson. This is a great documentary about the Civil War but it includes major errors. For example some historians regurgitate the same erroneous points. That the IRA were close to collapse at the time of the Truce(July 1921) which recent research has proved the opposite. Those IRA men that went Pro-Treaty are the original authors of this fallacy. That the IRA were short of arms and ammo but this was not a phenomenon at the time of the Truce. For example Tom Barry's unit went into the Kilmichael ambush with 40 rounds per rifle which was more or less the same his unit had at the time of the Truce. That the IRA would find it hard to fight during the long summer days. I always chuckle at the latter. The IRA had fought through May(heaviest month for the Crown Forces in terms of KIA)June and first 2vl weeks of July. The last 10 weeks of the conflict was the worst period for Crown Forces in terms of KIA. Even in the first 11 days of July 27 members of the Crown Forces (16 policemen and 11 soldiers) were killed. It looked as if July was going to be another tough month for the Crown Forces. The insurgency was escalating.

[@johnroche7541]

@Val O'Connell Once again thank you for your reply. It is obvious that you have a copious amount of knowledge in relation to the conflict. By the way I am also an ex-soldier and when my military career ended I became a professional researcher. The IRA were better armed,experienced in the summer of 1921 than they were in the previous year. The IRA Volunteer especially in the Munster area could in strictly military terms be titled a first rate light infantry soldier. What was being added to the IRA arsenal was what in todays military parlance would be called IED's. Look at the Youghal ambush for example in Cork 31st May 1921(7 soldiers KIA and 20 WIA) from the Hampshire Regiment. In late June 1921 the IRA ambushed a train using an IED coming from the opening of the Northern Ireland parliament. In this attack 3 soldiers from the 10 Kings Hussars were KIA and around 4 WIA. Over 70 horses were killed. The IRA trigger man detonated the IED under the the horse carriages which he took for carrying soldiers. This could have been carnage when you think of the number of deaths among the horses. The aftermath of this ambush is captured by British Pathe and is available to view on You Tube. There was thousands of British soldiers (to use modern military parlance a "surge") poured into Ireland from April to early July 1921 with some arriving literally a day or two before the "Truce". These British trinforcements confirmed the escalating insurgency. In late June the IRA in Co.Cork carried out a daring commando if not special forces style operation when they rowed out to Fastnet Lighthouse and captured a large amount of explosives avoiding Royal Navy boats. These would be used for constructing IED's. In Dublin on 4th of July(a few days before the Truce) an IRA unit was going to ambush a troop train carrying soldiers from the Ist Bn KOYLI. They had literally arrived in Ireland as part of the surge. The IRA had planted a big IED. A British officer from the South Lancashire Regiment spotted the command wires and disaster was avoided. The officer of the KOYLI wrote a letter to the OC of the South Lancashire Regiment stating that carnage had been avoided. Just the day before on 3rd July 1921 in Co.Waterford an IRA under the command of George Lennon(youngest FCC) was going to attack soldiers from the East Kent Regiment using an IED. It was called off due the IRA unit coincidentally being in an area where the British were carrying out a sweep.The same day in Co.Cork the IRA out carried an attack against a military lorry containing soldiers from the Cameron Highlanders. The trigger man pressed the detonator too early and the lorry escaped the full blast but 3 soldiers were WIA. The IRA used some IED's in June 1921 against the Auxiliaries at Rathcoole,Co.Cork killing two. On the morning of the Truce(11th July 1921) itself an IRA unit under Paddy O' Brien at Templegalatine estimated at 80-120 men were going to ambush a military convoy using 8 big IED's in a KZ which was a quarter of a mile long. The military convoy came after the 12 'o clock noon when the Truce came into effect. Despite this some IRA men still wanted to go ahead with the ambush. Also in late May 1921 an IRA unit(120 men) under Tom Barry wanted to ambush an Auxiliary convoy using an IED and a Lewis machine gun. They used the body of an informer as bait to draw out the Auxiliaries but the latter got wind of it and did not approach. The IRA also had some grenades. An IRA man in later years looking back stated it would have been "slaughter". These last two proposed attacks would have been huge by Irish War of Independence standards.

[@johnroche7541]

@Val O'Connell These attacks prove the IRA would have used IED's in a late summer and autumn campaign. In Co Kerry also on the morning of the Truce an IRA unit was going to ambush a military convoy containing soldiers from the North Lancashire Regiment on the Listowel to Tralee road using IED's. The convoy never showed up as the soldiers were confined to barracks due to the impending Truce! The great nephew of one of the IRA men involved in this proposed attack is Kerry journalist Fergal Keane who works for the British TV Network BBC as a war correspondent. All these are proof of the escalating insurgency which by the way are taking place in the MLA which had a huge concentration of Crown Forces. Look at the amount of arms and ammo captured by the IRA in attacks leading up to the 11th July 1921 Truce such as Rathmore,Castlemaine(Co.Kerry)Fastnet,Rathcoole(Co.Cork)Carrowkennedy in Co.Mayo where a Lewis machine gun was also captured. These attacks happened in May and June and the ammo captured was not exhausted by the time of the Truce.Obviously there was smaller captures allied to these. As an ex-soldier I am proving at the time of the Truce the IRA were an undefeated army in the field that was well armed and experienced and many of its units were CE(Combat Effective). Other sources also prove it. An IRA man named Thomas McEllistrum in Co.Kerry had made plans to ambush a curfew patrol containing soldiers from the East Lancashire Regiment in the village of Killorglin for 14th July 1921 but obviously called off due to the impending Truce. Monumental works such as "Atlas of the Irish Revolution" confirm the growing insurgency with statistics. In June 1921 in the House of Lords Lord Birkenhead(FE Smith) who was in today's political parlance a "hawk" stated and I quote verbatim "there is a small war going on in Ireland and we have not being able to overcome the methods of our opponents". Quotations from the British government from the time can be found in Hansard. Even Winston Churchill who as you know was a hawk admitted in a speech in the House of Commons in early 1922(From memory I think February) that a) the IRA " bands" as he called them were undefeated by the time of the Truce b)engagements were getting bigger and c)Crown Force casualties rising. David Lloyd George's secreatary Tom Jones Secretary stated "the tenacity of the IRA is incredible". There was still a trickle of both guns and ammo getting into Ireland right up to the Truce and historians writing about the IRA in the UK cover this aspect. Besides the main source of the IRA arsenal was contraband of war i.e.captured material from the Crown Forces. I know it sounds simplistic but if there was no Truce the conflict would have continued. IRA Officers like Ernie O'Malley did not expect it. The IRA in Connaught were contributing to the insurgency which was tying down large Crown Forces. In the summer of 1921(even earlier) the British conducted huge sweeps and drives throughout Ireland that in military parlance would be "seek & destroy " operations involving thousands of troops,calvary,motorised infantry,planes and boats. The results of these leviathan military manoeuvres were poor.

[@johnroche7541]

@Val O'Connell Thank you for your replies which only highlights the modicum of knowledge you have in relation to the conflict. Are you serious? You would not consider the mines used in the those IRA attacks that I mentioned in previous posts as IED's. That's exactly what they would be labelled as in modern military parlance. It was the information by the older generation that was given to me in relation to rape that was a by product in relation to my military research. I explained this previously. In December 1920 at a British government cabinet meeting Henry Tudor(ex-artilleryman and veteran of both the Boer War and WW1 and close friend of Churchill) stated that within 4 months the back of the Rebellion would be broken.(Consult Hansard). By April 1921 the insurgency was escalating and the worst Crown Force casualties were still to come. I would totally refute your claim in relation to the Dublin IRA which is just rehashed regurgitated erroneous outdated information. One has to look at the political context in which the attack on the Custom House took place. The military aim of the operation was the destruction of the building which succeeded. The IRA had a few KIA and whose names are on a memorial opposite the main bus station in Dublin City. They lost a lot of Volunteers in terms of capture and lost some arms. If one looks through the archives of the major UK newspapers held in the British library and look through the summer months there is positive propaganda coming from the British government in relation to suppressing the insurgency. I am going to apologise in advance because with my next comment I dont want to sound harsh or austere. While the British government were giving positive spin about the insurgency the amount of Union Jack draped coffins that were coming back was contradicting the governments official statements. I told you previously May was the worst single month in terms of Crown Force casualties. These coffins would feature in both the national papers and local papers of the fallen policemen and soldiers. I draw parallels between the Custom House and the Tet Offensive in the Vietnam war. The US public was being told they were winning the war but the US public was seeing contradictory evidence on US TV from reporters on the ground in Vietnam. The British public were prematurely being told the government was suppressing the Irish insurgency. Not only was this contradicted by the amount of Union Jack draped coffins coming back but that the IRA could muster such a huge force in Dublin the Irish capital which at the time was a major metropolis of the British Empire and concentrated with huge Crown Forces was also at variance with British government statements. The manpower of the IRA that was lost due to the Custom House attack was replenished with more recruits. This is confirmed by an Irish female historian. Forgive me but I forget her name but she has long dark hair and has a strong Dublin accent. I think her first name is Liz. She has appeared on Irish TV(RTE) in relation to a documentaries on the conflict including a programme called "Nationwide". She has also appeared on Irish radio. The IRA carried out over 100 operations in Dublin city in May 1921 and carried out over 90 in June 1921. Not exactly a dramatic decrease is it? The Burning of the Custom House obviously featured in both Irish and British newspapers but globally it featured in all the major news periodicals. World attention was being focused on Ireland. You have made claims in other posts that are ludicrous. Anyone reading our posts will know who has more knowledge. You dont mention Co.Kerry with the other counties such as Limerick or Tipperary which reflects your ignorance. In terms of Crown Force casualties there is not much between them. In fact the Kerry IRA killed more regular British soldiers than either fellow Limerick and Tipperary IRA comrades.

[@oliversherman2414]

I love your channel keep up the great stuff!!

[@ciarandoyle4349]

This is an excellent video because it retells what happened in the Irish civil war, rather than attempt to identify who was right and who was wrong.

[@davidsoulsby1102]

There was a common denominator, Irishmen fighting instead of talking.

[@ciarandoyle4349]

@@davidsoulsby1102 ?

[@tommercury3349]

No it doesn't

[@kiwidiesel]

@@davidsoulsby1102 Irish fighting lol fact🤣

[@gurriato]

The British were in the wrong, obviously.

[@hangableautobulbbot]

Excellent video, really enjoyed it.

[@abdulrahmanryan366]

Extremely well done

[@tylerpentecost9669]

I was just hoping for some quality content, and here it is!

[@antoh07]

Breaks my heart to brother fighting brother. Very well told.

[@johnroche7541]

On the surface it is very romantic to portray the Irish Civil War as former comrades fighting each other. Obviously this is true to a point but you must remember the vast majority of the Free State Army was recruited from soldiers recently released from the Irish regiments of the British Army that were disbanded in June 1922. They were reinforced by native Irish recruits the vast majority of who took no part in the Irish War of Independence. There was instances of brothers literally on opposing sides like the Hales brothers from Co.Cork. Another known little fact is that there was some British soldiers that did not leave when Crown Forces were evacuating Ireland but stayed behind and served with both Republican and Free State Forces.

[@peterhays7914]

Excellent presentation with no annoying "experts" to interject . Thank you.

[@phil5545]

As always.....great episode!

[@Linda72.]

What a fantastic documentary! This should be shown in all Irish and English schools. It goes into such detail and would help explain partition in Ireland. Thank you

[@seancorrigan]

I did The Troubles and it’s history for my history project at school many moons ago due to the fact my own families involvement in it.

[@user-wn1dl3kk6r]

Rubbish if you think this is fantastic

[@stephenpoole7828]

Unfortunately itll eventually disappear out of schools . I have a 19 year old son that told me they never did anyth regarding this history in primary or secondary. Sad

[@seancorrigan]

@@stephenpoole7828 It’s criminal, mate. Children should be taught the history of their nation. We were taught ours warts n all.

[@bushwhackeddos.2703]

Both peoples are on course to be minorities in their homelands, I don’t think the newcomers will be bothered.

[@Rollin_L]

Absolutely riveting. I've watched all the segments now on the Irish War of Independence, the Treaty and the Civil War. I commend you for the perfect balance, laying out the historical facts as they are best believed to be, giving voice to conflicting theories where they are found while remaining neutral throughout. You have one remarkable channel here, and I wish I had time to watch everything you have posted. I'll catch what I can as I have time, and I truly appreciate your magnificent work here.

[@lookman-2844]

Protestants and Catholics are the asme both HEretics after they broke from the Greek Orthodox Church. "Original sin" is a fake doctrine common to both.

[@Rollin_L]

@@lookman-2844 Well, talk to an Orthodox Jew and find out what he thinks of you!

[@eoinleen1]

Really great video. Thank you!

[@chriscocks3670]

Excellent presentation. Great commentary

[@xNevikKx]

Very interesting, well done!

[@augustvonmackensen1101]

Another smashing video! Well done to The Great War team! I also thoroughly enjoyed your recent video on the Second Boer War. Another conflict of that period that I would love to see covered is the Mahdist War in the Sudan from the rise of the Mahdi, Siege of Khartoum and murder of General Gordon (1884-5) to Kitchener’s reconquest of the Sudan from 1896 culminating in his decisive victory at the Battle of Omdurman in 1898.

[@simonshiels1]

Thanks....clear lucid description without any ridiculous bias ...

[@davefinn3526]

Thank you.. very informative

[@alexholl654]

What a great video, would love to see you guys cover the troubles

[@gomey70]

not if he has any sense lol

[@cosmicman621]

...he just did

[@alexholl654]

@@cosmicman621 no he didn't, he just covered the irish civil war, the troubles happened in the 60s,70s,80s and early 90s

[@Firefly-dy5zc]

I learned a lot watching this. The struggles in Ireland always seemed very confusing to me. Now it makes a lot more sense. Very tragic.

[@jacobedward2401]

Nice been waiting for this episode

[@richardglady3009]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[@peterhoughton474]

An under-reported topic because it doesn't have a clear villain but rather demonstrates the dangers of opportunism and power. Of all the characters though, I think I have the most respect for Collins.

[@georgereasonproductions]

awesome content a great joy to view:)

[@Jamie-fl2im]

Excellent breakdown. Thanks.

[@JBaseball777]

Incredible stuff, please keep it up!

[@simonzai7386]

Haven't even finished listening yet.This is a brilliantly done history lesson.5* dudes

[@Ingens_Scherz]

It's odd - these days at least - that I was given my first true and clear insight into the conflict between Ireland and Britain not in my A-level history lessons, but in my English Literature lessons in the late 80s because we happened to be studying WB Yeats. I regard that period as the beginning of a kind of awakening - or even liberation. From what? Well, from everything I'd ever known - or thought I knew, from what I'd been told - up to the age of 17. I made a point of choosing a module called "Contemporary Irish Culture" at university created by the best of all teachers, Professor Tony Crowley, in the early 90s. That was the most important course I've ever studied. Another massive, destructive impact: progress. Later, I had the honour (and it really felt like an honour even though I didn't know anything about him - he was like that!) of meeting another great Irish poet and academic twice in the mid-1990s when I was a schoolteacher - Brendan Kennelly - and he was interested in the impression Yeats had left on me in my teenage years, which I felt - very privately - was a kind of valediction for my shame of accidental, but still real to me (and still felt), association with the endless, meaningless but detailed brutality in Ireland visited by my country's leaders and their soldiers and bureaucrats in equal measure across hundreds and hundreds of years. He was (and I imagine still is) a very lovely, very brilliant and very wise Irish man. All these years later, I realise and appreciate: I've been lucky.

[@richardmccarthy4098]

That the best comment I've read on this subject so far and your right most people would regard Brendan Kennelly as a treasure a lovely man with a brilliant mind.

[@hughquigley5337]

Sounds like a pretty amazing life! Anyone would be very lucky to have had such wonderful experiences and the education to appreciate such things. :)

[@darrenboland2229]

Well done absolutely spot on everything I learned in school

[@premierfuncasino]

So well put together.. especially quotes from the main men

[@thehistorybox1163]

Great video to highlight irish history.

[@AxShroudedxSeer]

Great job. I’ve been waiting for this part of the story. I think it’s fair to say this end of the conflict pretty much paved the way for the troubles and future problems years later.

[@paultoner6318]

What an excellent summary. My family always characterised themselves as “Dev’s People”. The loss of records at the Four Courts still breaks my heart tho’. That was a bad day’s work. Thank you for this.

[@andrewharper1609]

Thank you. This was an excellent introduction to a topic that precedes the history I was taught at school. I just wish a so called comprehensive education had in fact been more comprehensive.

[@snakeeyes3733]

As an Irishman I commend you for a very insightful and well researched documentary on this subject. I think you should offer The Battle for Berlin as a DVD rather than having to pay a subscription on the platform you suggested.

[@LuisAldamiz]

That's a nice idea but obviously they have their own channel in Nebula, not just for this particular docu, and for a small enterprise, it may be costly and not worth the effort to produce, sell and distribute their own merchandise in the form you suggest (DVD), by being part of Nebula they avoid all those costs and even get a sponsor.

[@bcvetkov8534]

RIP to Michael Collins. Despite what people say he was largely right in his predictions. The fact that the IRA was largely crushed after his death shows that they stood no chance of winning. Great video Jesse and the great war team.

[@CashelOConnolly]

He was traitor. If he’d of got his way the English would still rule my country of the R.O.I

[@somerandomperson3970]

​@@CashelOConnollyIreland had won before the war even started. It was a choice between coming out brave or weak. Guess it's the latter.

[@johnkeating4221]

Michael Collins was fighting for Ireland. DeValera was fighting for himself. DeValera won and Ireland lost and the cost is still being paid by Irish people today.

[@elenafoleyfoley168]

Excellent video thankyou 💥

[@Pointblankmos]

Fantastic documentary.

[@lukasb9397]

Irishman/Dubliner here, part-time historian, I am impressed. This channel has some fantastic videos, this adds to the pile for sure. However to make a note, @24:20 the presenter speaks of The Four Courts, it should be noted that this photo is of The Customs House further down on the Quays, you can tell as the railway bridge from Tara Street Station cuts across. I believe the photo is from the burning of the building in May, 1921. Hope this helps, otherwise as I said, great video!

[@adambane1719]

Dubliners aren't really Irish though. The rest of the country calls them West Brits, for constantly selling Ireland out, foregoing our freedom and facilitating the colonialists.

[@lukasb9397]

@@adambane1719 Do you have evidence supporting this claim, that every Dubliner was apart of this facilitation or are you just a bigot? Maybe geography had a role to play.

[@adambane1719]

​@@lukasb9397 Yes, the Dubliners colluded with Britain and sold us out to them. Its no mystery. The whole country has always been aware of that fact. Thats why we call them Jackeens...for their collusion with the Union Jack. Dont tell me this is your FIRST time hearing about it. Thats why the rest of the country dont like Dubs !

[@nolls14]

@@lukasb9397 He's just another chip on the shoulder culchie :) Sure we love their quaint little ways.

[@johnroche7541]

@@lukasb9397 As a part-time historian as well as being Irish you must have at least 2 major issues with this documentary. (A) the fallacy that the IRA were short of arms and ammo which was not a phenomenon at the time of Truce. They embarked on the military campaign short of arms and ammo in 1919. The IRA at the time of the Truce were better armed,experienced and stronger than the previous year. The worst individual month for Crown Forces KIA was May 1921. The last 10 weeks of the conflict was the worst period for Crown Force KIA. The insurgency was escalating which is confirmed lately in the monumental work "Atlas of the Irish Revolution" which a couple of historians have contributed to (B) The.IRA would shoot a volley at Free State soldiers and then surrender. Goodness me what soldier would do that as he would know he would be shot out of hand for violating a principle of war.

[@user-md9hp5mi4e]

Excellent as always, informative and objective.感謝路橋和石頭的分析.✨🙏🏻

[@C00sanb0y]

Brilliant documentary, well done.

[@bazlincoln697]

This is a fascinating and unbiased description of the civil war.

[@kooperativekrohn819]

Well done ! We should learn lesson from our history , British or irish , both sides of the divide … just respect those that lost their lives . A conflict thats touched so many !

[@wadejustanamerican1201]

One again a stellar episode.

[@johnroche7541]

As an American you might like to know the famous Thompson sub machine gun made its military debut in Dublin City in the summer of 1921 during the Irish War of Independence. Obviously the USA wanted to use the gun in WW1 but by the time it came into production the conflict had ended. The IRA were the first to use it in combat. Despite the plethora of books written on this iconic weapon and the documentaries dedicated to it this fact is not mentioned. It is the usual erroneous story that the weapon came too late to be used in WW1 but then was a favourite of Chicago gangsters. Two Irish-Americans who had served in the AEF in WW1 came to Ireland(Dublin in May 1921) to demonstrate it. A cargo of these machine guns(about 450) were seized in New Jersey by the US authorities before they could be smuggled to Ireland. However a couple were in Dublin in the summer of 1921.

[@wadejustanamerican1201]

@@johnroche7541 That is really very cool. Thank you for the information!

[@alanlong1120]

Great program . Well made Jesse.

[@nkos918]

Great presentation

[@ConnollyStationChicago1936]

I ask the producers of this amazing work if they can point me in the direction of any information and or any resources, specifically about Civil War prisoners of war in 1923. My grandfather, who I believe was Anti-Treaty, was a POW in 1923, at the Curragh. He was on a hunger strike while there. I am grateful to learn more and significantly sad to learn of how all events unfolded.

[@edwardbourke5240]

try military archives cathal brugha barracks rathmines Dublin they may have lists of prisoners

[@Ryan-tq7oi]

Perfect timing, given the century anniversary of the Civil War

[@shaymoose4538]

Excellent content

[@kingkong-vy4hd]

Congratulations on an excellent historically correct production.

[@montbrehain]

This is the best explanation of the Irish civil war I have ever seen. It seems to be an unspoken and perhaps hidden aspect of Irish history ? That I did not fully know off or understand.. thank you for posting this.

[@Dreyno]

It’s literally taught to every student in school in Ireland. Whether they’re all listening or not, it’s part of the curriculum.

[@montbrehain]

@@Dreyno thank you for that. I was led to believe that the fight for independence was taught but not the consequences or aftermath of gaining that independence. I now know better ....

[@Dreyno]

@@montbrehain It’s all taught. Maybe there’s less societal focus on it because it’s more uncomfortable to discuss and until not too many years ago, in quite recent memory. But even today, the two biggest political parties for the last century formed out of the civil war. Finn Gael were pro-treaty and Fianna Fáil were anti-treaty. I’ve heard lots of Irish people make some strange claims about what is and isn’t taught in Irish schools. But it’s a set curriculum and some people either weren’t listening or are twisting the truth to try and make some other point.

[@ashwilliams3117]

Its always spoken about its still raw for some generations and even worse up north of Ireland

[@barryahern6645]

they could not beat us at a war called guerilla warfare you cant beat it

[@trystandavies7249]

Great video! Celtic history is fascinating and complex. I'm a Welshman who has studied Scottish history and it's eye opening how divisive Celtic politics can be - especially here in Scotland and its history of civil wars. Recent Welsh history has tended to be working class uprisings against the establishment.

[@wm5000]

Genetically the Welsh are British. Really the only native British people's in the world. The Irish, and the Scottish (who came from Ireland) are a mix of gaelic, norman, saxon. The idea of Celt is a 19th century myth.

[@trystandavies7249]

@@wm5000 I would agree with your comment to a certain extent except I am led to believe that the Celtic peoples was a shared cultural phenomenon thousands of years old. A lot was invented, arguably revived, in recent times and there isn't a strong genetic link, but there is also a lot of shared culture that is historical.

[@wm5000]

@@trystandavies7249 100% I agree. I'm Scottish, Welsh and English but never knew the Scots came from Ireland until recently. That many modern day scots have much norman, viking and saxon dna, and that the Irish too, have a bunch of viking, norman and saxon dna. It's only really the Welsh who are truly British! They're still here.

[@readingforwisdom7037]

Excellent as always