Britishmuzzleloaders Discussion: The Pattern 1908 to Pattern 1937 Transition: Why?

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Mike and Rob of Britishmuzzleloaders discuss the whys and wherefores of the changes from the 1908 Pattern web equipment to the 1937 Pattern. Something to do with rifles and BREN light machine guns.
Also featuring: a couple of .303 Lee Enfield No.4's and an SMLE

[@mikerock777]

I appreciate the commitment to the phone joke.

[@Eledore]

They should have added a slight soundclip after he was done scrolling on his phone and started nodding.. the BoTR intro..

[@bskorupk]

I second that, as I'm a history buff that casually makes old and obscure references/misunderstandings interspersed with contemporary ones! :)

[@milgeekmedia]

@@Eledore Yep, dogedly sticking with it in the time honoured British way. :)

[@moxapunk1]

As an Aussie that has a Lithgow SMLE & Carcano 6.5 x 52 (My wife's grandad was a desert Rat) & my grandad a foreign pilot in the Battle of Britain- I can't stop watching you guys' channel. It's very hard to get a firearms license in my state in Australia, but I've managed to join the historical military firearms club & the info you blokes are giving us is outstanding historical information. Thanks mates!

[@yop_cholo]

A little over 20 minutes of British rambling about gear and rifles I'll never get to use. I enjoyed every second of it.

[@BlokeontheRange]

We aim to please!

[@yop_cholo]

@@BlokeontheRange Well then you could say your aim is as good when pleasing viewers as when you shoot at 300 meters with a naked K11. :D

[@ducttapeengineer]

@@BlokeontheRange I trust you were also aiming downrange

[@raseli4066]

@@BlokeontheRange where would you want to be shot?

[@henrynelson11]

Canada confirmed new Swiss Canton

[@BrewKatarn]

Well, there are plenty of us swiss over here!

[@xgford94]

That would be the French end of Switzerland of course

[@RabbitusMaximus]

yep. Because of Rob my wife no longer has any brown paper bags, twine, or sharp scissors....and all my ammo now looks too pretty in its packaging to shoot. Darn that guy!

[@mikebrase5161]

Anson Mills was the Godfather of US and UK web equipment. The guy lived an extraordinary life.

[@koivis87]

4:06 look at that case on the left :D

[@ccameron9]

No way

[@zoiders]

If you tie a knot in the bandolier strap to shorten it, it doesn't hang down near your bollocks and flap round as much as you move.

[@johnwhittle.22]

It wasn't just cost that the blouse was kept short, it was designed for mechanisation so even the arms are not straight, they're slightly curved to make driving more comfortable/easier. And the trousers were high waisted so there was a good cross over of clothing, and the idea was they wouldn't be needed to be kept pulling up. In 1937 it was the most advanced design in combat clothing ever seen, although my old man said it was hot in the summer and cold in the winter, he loved the great coats until they got water logged and were damned heavy

[@davidlowry8765]

I joined the Canadian Reserves in the last year they issued Battle and Bush Dress. The Battle Dress Blouse and Trousers buttoned together, creating a coverall effect. It was also the first time I experienced a button fly. Luckily I was also I was issued a combat uniform so I only worn Battle / Bush Dress in Garrison not in the field. About a year later Battle/Bush Dress was replaced with Canadian Forces Greens.

[@Gool349]

haha that phone joke was ace!

[@fab006]

I listened with phone in my pocket. “Wait, he’s not actually shooting a Bren, is he...?”

[@BlokeontheRange]

The Hype Is Real :D

[@jenniferbardot8791]

Those Bren pouches if added to a modern day pack, make great water bottle holders.

[@titanuranus3095]

The one with the bren gun shoots! The one with the magazines follows!

[@TheWirksworthGunroom]

Excellent video! Glad to be able to assist with the webbing!

[@westcoaster7.62]

Your love of all this shines through, great videos! 👍

[@Bob_Keen]

Love these collaborations . Great work guys.

[@JenniferinIllinois]

Rob with no concept of what a Bren gun is. It's like he's stuck back in a previous war. Hehehe...

[@SootHead]

SO well done! Informative and entertaining.

[@edsonlizarraga9633]

Love this channel!

[@southwood6244]

Love it. Thank you. Give us more please. Cheers.

[@dick1123]

A nice presentation. Very enjoyable.

[@adventureike]

Newcomer here. "It's all online now!" made me subscribe to both of you.

[@Pep_1992]

I agree rob is to modest. he has made some of the best well educated videos I've seen on youtube.

[@infantryS04]

Love the video 👏 love the short scene acting made me burst out laughing 🤣🤣 can you make a video on The pattern 37 utility pouches? even jus a short will be very appreciated 😊, Cheers 🥂 from New Zealand

[@faenrir11]

I really am an awful subscriber, I must have skipped what feels like a couple of months of videos just to finally watch another fun one about practical aspects of history with a Lindybeige kind of appeal, instead of some weird ammo gibberish *wink*. Worth sticking around! :)

[@Blastmaster1972]

Interesting video.

[@cryhavoc999]

Excellent work. Would be nice to see how the Bren gun was used in a section environment and why it made sense etc . Very little on the interwebs on this subject. Merry Christmas ;)

[@BlokeontheRange]

You see some of the early war doctrine here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4C2l2mXg5h7aLs Later they'd carry it with a mag on and held at the hip on the sling, but it gives you an idea.

[@zoiders]

There needs to be a video for 44 pattern webbing and the Sten.

[@Pattern51lover]

Loved this. Please do more vids on British webbing

[@BlokeontheRange]

It just so happens I have a set of 44 pattern and a set of 58 pattern with exactly this in mind :)

[@Pattern51lover]

Noice! 👍🏼 looking forward to seeing what ya got to say about them! I’ve got a set of pattern 58 webbing and I’ve just recently been getting into pattern 37. Thought it’s was pretty cool how the British were centered around the Bren. I was wondering how they were carrying ammo for the Enfield, so you did a great job clearing that up

[@Kill3rGr1zzly]

@@BlokeontheRange Can't wait for the 58 Pattern video! I have a complete set minus the respirator case. My most compressed comment on it would be that I'm amazed at how fantastically flawed it is. How the British, who made at least two (I cannot comment on 44 Pattern) generations of excellent equipment prior to that, dropped the ball so hard on the follow up, is something I'm interested in your take on.

[@behindthespotlight7983]

German Wehrmacht: MG-34 or MG-42. US Army: Browning .30 (water cooled/ air cooled, Browning .50, BAR, Thompson & M3 “grease gun” British Army: 30 (28) round mags and a Bren. We don’t see Stens issued in numbers like we see Americans w/ Thompson’s or Germans w/the Schmeiser MP-40. Not enough automatic fire among British regulars. That has never seemed like sufficient or versatile options in the select fire, suppressing fire department for the British. No wonder they loved the Tommy gun from Churchill on down. To be fair, however, few things are as impressive as seeing a British platoon lay down darn near automatic fire w/ their.303’s. Gotta hand it to them; they learned to work those bolts with almost supernatural speed.

[@PSsinghBains5]

British had Vickers water-cooled machine gun , Bren Gun , Sten guns , Lancaster guns Surprisingly British produced more 30 cal Brownings in WW2 than Americans Britain produced 5,50,000 .303 Brownings machineguns but they only used these in aircrafts not on land even if they had available in stocks They also produced around 80,000 besa machineguns but only used on armoured vehicles There were 4 million stens but total US submachine guns were 1.8 million

[@MegaRagingBunny]

nice video, funny scatches

[@DRNewcomb]

Bloke needs to get some period eyeglasses.

[@jellybryce7742]

They both need bren guns

[@JohnCBobcat]

@@jellybryce7742 I don't think anyone could disagree with that notion. Heck, I need a Bren Gun too!

[@TzunSu]

Very good episode, but i can clearly see knees, why is this not marked NSFW?

[@SafetyProMalta]

Explains a lot about P37 though. Though it makes me think about the 58 pouches....Was the same ethos applied? Because they were pretty large for SLR mags.

[@BlokeontheRange]

AFAIK not at all - once you're carrying 3 of your own spare mags, you've got no room in the left pouch for anything else (and you've got pyro / bandoleer in the right again, but for your own use). Talking to guys who used L4 LMG's, it all went a bit German with the no.2 carrying mag boxes for this reason.

[@zoiders]

If you have ever had the dubious pleasure of using the old 58 large pack then you will observe two slim pockets on either side designed to carry 2 extra L4 magazines so yes it was intended for every man to carry 2 spares. Of course the 58 pouch was designed to take the L4 mag as that is what a gunner would be issued with as carrying equipment, everyone else with an L1A1 just had to go digging a bit deeper for that magazine. If you have to you can feed the L4 with SLR magazines (South Africa did this) and also the other way around. The L4 mag may not fuction as well in the SLR though due to lack of spring pressure. Also bear in mind that many other soldiers from all arms units were issued with the Sterling SMG which uses a long curved 34 round magazine.

[@cnorwood55]

Hi mike just wondering is the poler bear patch on ur arm one from the 49 West Riding? Just wondering as that division was eventually turned in to 49 West Riding signal sqn then eventually down to a troop and exists as 849 tp now

[@BlokeontheRange]

yes it is 49 west Riding

[@daiprout323]

Doesn't Rob know bolt guns are obsolete, or so I've heard 😂

[@MaxwellAerialPhotography]

I get the joke, but Ian and Karl are taking about using a bolt gun in modern combat, I'm sure Rob is smart enough to more than fully understand that, which is why he discusses bolt guns in a historical setting.

[@dj1NM3]

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography I noticed how Rob described how the machinegun devolved lower and lower into the ranks, the adoption of a select-fire rifle was just the ultimate evolution.

[@sebastianbosek5222]

@@dj1NM3 Good point.

[@Waelser93]

@@sebastianbosek5222 See the new USMC Squad...

[@KB9813]

How does full auto law work for the Swiss? Are there exceptions for historical rifles? Just wondering how you got your paws on a Bren to film with.

[@BlokeontheRange]

Ausnahmebewilligung :) Not my BREN though, although I might be tempted!

[@stephenbond1990]

Asked Rob on his channel but it seems to be beyond his ability right now, but would it be possible to do a comparison of the personal equipment of Britain, France, Germany and Russia during both world wars, best i can think of is the video by the BBC on the uniforms used by the British and it only touches on German and French kit.

[@BlokeontheRange]

I'd have to find some French, German and Russian re-enactors to do that.

[@jodc2760]

@@BlokeontheRange Now That You've got one (a Frenchman in his 40s with his own LMG :) ), will you do this ?

[@olivier3847]

did the germans ever change their way of carrying their machine gun ammunition and adopt a more pouch based system? or even use captured british bren pouches?

[@BlokeontheRange]

You very occasionally see pouches used for non-standard mag-fed MG's, but not for the main 2 ones. LAter in the war you see belts draped over people's shoulders, largely made possible cos the MG42 is less ammo / dirt-sensitive.

[@olivier3847]

@@BlokeontheRange thanks again

[@centblinde1450]

The worksmith gunroom you say? Google isn't showing me anything there... Is the P37 kit made by them, or are they a retailer for one of the other companies?

[@BlokeontheRange]

facebook.com/The-Wirksworth-Gunroom-1575090222714930/

[@centblinde1450]

Thanks a lot bloke

[@stevep5408]

Why would they go with magazines for any type of sustained fire role weapons?

[@BlokeontheRange]

The BREN is not intended to be a sustained-fire weapon. It's an LMG. The sustained fire weapon was the belt-fed Vickers MMG.

[@brettmcclain9289]

8:04 hey phone zombies the British army needs you.

[@davidjarkeld2333]

14:29 Anyone know what solidier a single pouch was issued to? Was it for an officer?

[@BlokeontheRange]

Are you referring to the revolver ammunition pouch? If so, it was issued to people armed with a revolver (officers, military police, certain specialists)

[@davidjarkeld2333]

@@BlokeontheRange I'm not sure if it's a revolver pounch, it could be. It looks exactly like the double, but only has a single pouch. I thought it wide enough to take two clips, but maybe not. Sorry, to be vague I'm going from memory of the item that I've not seen since I was a teenager.

[@BlokeontheRange]

I'm not aware of a single rifle ammo pouch, sorry. It's possible someone cut a double down for their own needs at some point.

[@Manomed3]

P37 works well with carryinh fal magazines

[@raseli4066]

The fact that the average british infantryman had only 50 rounds for his rifle could also be because of the fact that most people during the war, did not fire their weapon. Or if they did, they wouldn't need alot because they are just shooting in the enemies general direction. And also, bullets are heavy and after a battle you might be able to get a new bandoleer with ammunition for your gun.

[@stalkingtiger777]

I find it interesting that the U.S. Army still doesn't train everyone on the Squad Automatic Weapon these days.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Bloke would definitely be going for a commission

[@BlokeontheRange]

It's the accent :p

[@pnutz_2]

that would explain why all the cadets in the 50s got time on the bren gun

[@zoiders]

It was more the fact that the FAL and MAG had just been adopted and Royal Ordnance now had enough .303 lying about spare to fight WWII several times over.

[@victorsilveira3129]

I came across this video here on KZbin, if you are interested in learning a little bit more about Sir Joseph Whitworth , feel free to check it out. How to Measure to a MILLIONTH of an Inch (The Dawn of Precision) - Smarter Every Day 206

[@blue-skyuniform]

I know the equipment from 1937 was cheaper before WWII, but if I carried 50 cartridges I would rather have the 1908 cartridge bag equipment, and make it together so that you can carry 2 more Brent LMG with you. how the british soldiers in the second world war wear their 303 partons i wouldn't want do that, i would rather be able to pack quickly in cartridge bags from the 1908 equipment

[@verfugbarkite]

Times have changed a bit mutter mutter mutter. Ha ha

[@gerardohagan800]

you have a bitchute?

[@interdictr3657]

I thought he said Brain mags

[@ethan5.56]

Combat kilt

[@zoperxplex]

Just what the soldier needed in a muddy trench, a dress.

[@tonydee2069]

At 8 min.- no shit eh? I wonder how many casualties in Iraq and Afganistan were some kids playing a video game rather than keep his nose in the air? Shame is in all wars since the first, is 999 out of the thousand rounds fired from full autos never hit anything at all, but kept the other guy's head down.... I wonder if anyone ever thought of just lighting a string of firecrackers while yourguys advance without getting hit by friendly fire? Or am I just too cheap and lazy??? -talk about re-supply- so few people know the true reason for adopting the 5.56 NATO... was the vast numbers that could fit in a helicopter.... talk about number crunchers... great video!

[@cracklingvoice]

My team sergeant would have had me crucified if he ever caught me on my phone while "outside the wire". Can't speak for anyone else, but to say that it would be frowned upon is a bit of an understatement. A great effect of being shot at is the distinctive crack of a bullet flying past you. It's kinda hard to recreate that without expending live ammo. I believe the US military has lowered the ratio for ammo expended per enemy hit, but it's still a fantastic number (I think it is something like 1,000:1 for rifle-caliber). And yes, the 5.56x45 was adopted because it was so small and light. Whether a ship, truck, helo, airdropped pallet ... smaller bullet size = more delivered per cubic foot of transport space.

[@user-cd4vv8vc4o]

One Louis gunner disliked this

[@mrivantchernegovski3869]

lol that british battle dress is horrid ,dad had his from ww2 ,really short jacket and hi as baggy pants in itchy wool,MY Dad was in the 21st battalion of the 2nd new Zealand Expeditionary Forces ww2.