BROKEN or beautiful? The Augury Scanner - Horus Heresy

[@vladimirpugh194]

The problem is that reactions and the such have no trade-off. Firing earlier and at a time of your own choosing carries a huge advantage, at the very least a squad that has fired as part of a reaction should have to wait out the next shooting phase.

[@jamesespinosa690]

Good comment! Wise analysis!

[@LeopoldZ]

This could also create nice baiting tactics, where you drop in an assault squad or something. Either you're safe from return fire from the intercepting unit, or your assault squad has free reign in your opponents table half!

[@redcorsair14]

We found a very good solution to this in my group. One shooting reaction per unit, per player turn which includes the free interception from scanners. Yeah you can burn all your intercepts, but you get no overwatch, no return fires etc.

[@depthcharge126]

I think only giving Aug scanners to MoS and Techmarines is a good start. The problem is, heavy support squads and nemesis bolter recon squads can get multiple shooting phases at full BS, which is absolutely punishing. I do like that you have to think around how to deal with those situations. I think what wasn’t mentioned was pinning and the context of it. It’s not a guarantee, but there are a few fair ways to proc it and your deep strikers can try to get it too as a last resort. Just something to consider

[@thesleepylion399]

yeah, the full bs seems a bit out of whack for those units especially. Like make the HSS snap shoot at BS2 and remove precision from nemesis bolters or something, just to simulate that they don't have the time to brace themselves shooting those heavy weapons and recons don't have time to truly "snipe"

[@tomgardner2253]

"A unit that chooses to intercept cannot choose to overwatch in this battle Turn" or "only units within 12' can use the interceptor rule"

[@LordGrantius]

Would it be better to say, a unit can only react once per turn?

[@volcano3493]

Problem here is not an issue between Intercept and Deep Strike but rather the lack of a proper suppression mechanic in GW´s ruleset and a limitation how Intercept should work. Lets take an excursion into video game territory where it functions beautifully (Age of Wonders: Planetfall). These units can Overwatch (synonym for Intercept here): - Grunt infantry armed with assault rifles. - Walkers armed with multiple shot weapons (autocannons, assault cannons, etc.) - Sentry guns armed with multiple shot weapons. If a unit also carries other weapon systems then those cannot be used in Overwatch (e.g. Walker armed with additional missiles). So basically only anti-infantry guns are capable of delivering Overwatch. There are further limitations how Overwatch works. During a turn a unit may either shoot in combination with moving or may go into Overwatch in combination with moving. The farther a unit moves the less offensive power it generates during shooting and Overwatch. Overwatch is limited to a 45° fire arc to the front, a unit can only trigger once a turn Overwatch and will do it immediately when a viable target MOVES into it´s threat range. Planetfall has a plethora of ways of negating Overwatch from opposing units. There is a wide variety of different kinds of bombardments (think of Strategems in GW games but would cost Tactic Operation points corresponding to it´s power), artillery shells, sniper fire and obviously engaging into close combat outside the 45° fire arc. So regarding all the above factors it is of little surprise that GW struggles to come up with a good Intercept mechanic as it has simplified this process in the pursuit of the wider audience.

[@totallycarbon2106]

Was in a weird spot list building iron warriros and wondering if my tactical squads with shrapnel bolters even want to bother with augury scanners. Shrapnel bolters being 18 inch range interacts weirdly with the intercept side of augury scanners - and they have no impact on the night fighting side. Obviously stuck one on my havocs, gave my predators searchlights and the tyrant siege termies have the omniscope so I called it a day there and spent the spare points on rhinos.

[@chrisgraham8368]

Great topic, sparks scintillating debate over Augury scanners. Deep strike is finally working as intended and has limitations build in such as scatter and disordered rolls. Further more a MOS can counter deep strike with Vox disrupter…therefore, I feel deep strike is ‘beautiful’. Augury scanners are too cheap and too available to every unit

[@petercarlson8240]

Yet another reason to take Nemesis Bolters. A possible fix to the Interceptor mechanic of Augury Scanners might be to limit reactions, across the boards, to one per unit per player turn. Full stop. That way, deep striking would be useful to bait out an Interceptor reaction to prevent said unit from reacting later in the turn.

[@LordGrantius]

I think you guys really nailed it, good discussion. Multiple units reacting to one deep strike, I hadn't even thought of that. As I see it, part of the problem is the free reactions. As a Blood Angels player, I want to deep strike a half dozen units. Deploying an assault squad to soak up some interceptor doesn't matter when the heavy weapon squads waiting for my Dawnbreakers don't need to fire, some tactical squads can instead. I'm not sure how you fix it - I'm not sure deep strike is as overpowered. If I deep strike my Dawnbreakers near your unit, can you not Withdraw away if Interceptor isn't available? Maybe deploying isn't moving. Does deep strike trigger the Imperial Fists advanced reaction?

[@tomgardner2253]

When I was new to the game I played against a BA player and I had no augery scanners. He deepstriked all his elites and I got annihilated. Yes a option to tactically withdraw is better than an entire army opening up on your units

[@papanurgle9015]

The thing is you can't withdraw far enough away and you also can't withdraw 7 units if the BA players deepstrikes 7+ units. So yeah deep striking especially with multiple units quite overpowered if there is no counter. If you had to deep-fried at least 9" away it be a lot more balanced and at that stage scanners could be balanced more easily

[@LordGrantius]

@tomgardner2253 I think your experience gets to the crux of the issue. With no ability to counter, you got crushed. With augury scanners so prevalent, in Day of Revelation everything that can deep strike must deep strike - you're going to annihilate my best units. So my option is to not take my best units, or not use the Rite. That Rite, in my opinion, is the most iconic, archetypal for the Blood Angels. How do we make it so players can bring the kind of army they want to bring and not get countered so hard they shouldn't even play?

[@LordGrantius]

@papanurgle9015 that's a good point. If there was some limitation on deep strike, it wouldn't be so oppressive and so needing of hard counters

[@tomgardner2253]

@@LordGrantius it's needs to be FAQd. Most reactions affect 1 unit. The same with interceptor. One unit can fire as long as it has an augery scanner. Augery scanners start to seem expensive if only 1 unit can fire. But then that makes DS really strong again

[@wulfbak]

Augury scanners are broken in the sense that they are so cheap that they can be spammed. Everyone does have access to them, though.

[@scotttiveron8739]

Augury Scanner interceptor range should be reduced to 18" and incept should be reduced that a unit can only be intercepted once.

[@MayhapsOmegon]

Just make Interceptor reaction hit on 5+.

[@ChopsAUSTRALIA]

Found this as a salty night lord forever being cucked by these in my games. Personally I think the points cost should be higher and there should be a limited number available per detachment or they should be applied to an elite as discussed, and still provide the intercept as a single use reaction per unit. This helps balance the deep strike assaults, whilst not negating night fighting all together. Run spotlights if you want to see in the dark

[@Orlunu]

Given how they utterly and completely fucked reactions and deepstrikes, honestly augury scanners are surprisingly ok.

[@OllyHux]

They're far too good, far too cheap and far too available. Interceptor reactions need to have a limit. They should probably just count as regular movement or shooting reactions tbh, but ones which you need an augury scanner or something to perform. 18" infiltrate denial should be cut down to like 12". I like the idea of limiting them to MoS and techmarines. Even with all those, they should definitely cost more points. Edit: Interceptor reactions also need a range limit

[@shaunwhite4831]

I think a unit should only get 1 reaction per turn It will stop you being able get 3 shoots in their turn Intercept Return fire Overwatch

[@Miguel-qg5zb]

Solar Auxilia when?

[@CygnusMaximusXIII]

The main place that Augury Scanners really break things is with flyers. Flyers are already not great in this edition, and when you add in all the free Interceptor reactions most shooting armies are getting, they're just not worth taking, and it's a shame because flyers are cool. Also, I don't think Interceptor overrides the normal "you can NEVER make more than three reactions in a given phase" rule. You do make it for free, but I'm pretty sure you can only do it three times, and then you couldn't make any other Movement Phase reactions.

[@meatlaser]

It actually says it ignores the limmit saddly

[@CygnusMaximusXIII]

@@meatlaser - it does indeed. I should have checked my book BEFORE posting! That said, making it count against total reaction allotment but not take a point would be a decent fix...

[@liammorgan1413]

Augury Scanners are situational at best. I've found that for all of the utility that they bring to the table their reputation as "game-breaking cheats" is overblown. A lot of it comes down to the opportunity costs that they present and how well they work with the units taking them. As a one-off that only happens in the Deployment phase of the game, Infiltration isn't really hampered by Augury Scanners outside of trying to sneak in melee units (and even then an Infiltrating unit can't charge in their first turn anyway), especially if the goal for the player doing the Infiltrating is to get as many units set up outside of their deployment zone as possible. The 18" bubble confered by Augury Scanners suffers from two limitations: 1) It's measured from the model equipped with it, not the unit they're a part of; and 2) It doesn't restrict the ability for units with the Scout special rule to redeploy before the first turn. There's also diminishing returns for taking more Augury Scanners on your front lines for the purpose of screening out Infiltrators. Even on a long edge deployment type on a 48"×72" board, you're pissing points away if you're taking more than five, spaced out 18" apart, and that still represents 50pts that you're needing to pull from elsewhere in your army for a one-time thing. Edge cases abound of course (Recon Squads can take them while Infiltrating to counter opposing Infiltrators, for instance), but those are merely exceptions that prove the rule. By comparison, Night Fighting is more relevant on the basis of being able to ignore the 24" limit to LoS for shooting. With that said, the units you want to be equipping with augury scanners for this purpose aren't your frontline troops but rather the ones whose weapon range exceeds 24", which are virtually all of your heavy weapons squads anyway (multimeltas and heavy flamers notwithstanding). The only other ways to get around this is to shine a 5pt searchlight (provided you have vehicles) on whatever you want to shoot at, or cough up the additional points to render Night Fighting irrelevant with a cognis-signum (which I consider to be a far more valuable piece of wargear in this regard as a matter of longevity). The free Intercept reaction you get from Augury Scanners is also in my opinion very overblown. While critical to making an effective long-range AA unit like missile HSS (incidentally one of the most versatile units you can have in Horus Heresy), Interceptor seldom comes up more than once per game if it happens at all, and oftentimes you want to be making those intercepts with something other than peashooters. Again, like with Night Fighting, long range firepower benefits from it far more than bolter squads do, and you're still saddled with a 10pt/scanner opportunity cost for what's likely going to be a one-time event at most vs what could be effective over the course of an entire game.