BS Speaker Sensitivity Ratings and "Dynamics"

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[@ErinsAudioCorner]

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[@MgShewchuk]

Hi Erin, do you have that graph of delta's at the end up anywhere? I looked on your website but there is no search, poked around but didn't see it. Thanks Mark

[@audiosmackdown]

As soon as I saw the title, I knew this was going to point out Klipsch as crazy ratings

[@Benjamin-nm4jd]

Klipsch has always been sleazy that way for 2 decades or more, they're the Walmart-class snake oil brand that target a very specific group of customers. lol

[@lukeselker5175]

I remember when I first started designing speakers as a hobbyist, I kept despairing because I couldn't figure out why my designs weren't producing the same types of sensitivity numbers as other brands. I started looking at more objective reviews such as yours and realized that the real reason I couldn't get similar results was because other companies were full of crap! 😂😂😂

[@mdocod]

Same experience! When we actually start to really hammer down the response peaks and correct for baffle step, the real-world sensitivity of most speakers tends to be much lower than expected. To actually hit 90dB@1W1M, which many speakers "claim" to be able to do, tends to require pro-sound driver sensitivity. Coincidentally, my home theater speakers use the Celestion TF0818 as the midbass driver crossed at about 1500hz to the popular DX25. After "smashing" the baffle step loss down these speakers would qualify as having a "true" 90dB@1W1M sensitivity rating from ~80hz-20Khz. It's an actual high-EBP design intended for pairing with subs.

[@lukeselker5175]

@@mdocod Yes, the only design I've ever produced that exceeds 90 decibels sensitivity is a large 3-way tower speaker that utilizes a pair of 8-in pro drivers wired in parallel to drive the bottom frequencies. It is 94-95 dB/2.83V/1m anechoic. Case in point, I currently have a little 50 watt chip amp driving it, and it tends to make people's ears bleed and the walls shake with the volume around 15% 😂 I have to explain to people that in order to get a typical pair of bookshelf speakers to play as loud as my towers, they have to put literally 10 times as much power into them, and that's only if the bookshelves will handle the power without compressing or distorting.

[@ManFromLaBamba]

This man should be in the top 10 audio channels

[@summerforever6736]

He is

[@FukemStudios]

I agree!

[@juicebox853]

Thanks for bringing the truth, Erin. Manufacturers do the same thing with F3 and F10 numbers.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Indeed. Almost talked about it in this video but decided to save it for its own.

[@adamjj85]

YES! F3 and F10 numbers are all over the place!

[@justiceforall2367]

Right on...

[@RennieAsh]

It's all good you just need those $2 2" drivers that can play 20Hz -20kHz. And yes, technically they can do that lol

[@DBravo29er]

This is a NECESSARY COMMUNITY SERVICE!!! 👏 Thanks, Erin!!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

No problem!!

[@tommythetoe]

I see a speaker with a 6 inch woofer in a bass reflex cabinet claiming + or - 3db from 40Hz to 20 Khz and a sensitivity of 95 db. I know that has to be a lie I could not see how that would work without horn loading. I am Glad to see your video and learn that I was right. Thank you.

[@jaycoleman8062]

I'm using a set of 3-way speakers with a 6-inch woofer that is only 84db @1w, but they really sing when you give them 100 watts. The bass is very tight and focused, in my (limited) experience.

[@MichaelBeeny]

Hi Erin, If you think you have trouble with manufactures specs on speakers, have some sympathy for me and my channel! I deal mostly with amplifiers. How about this rating? Manufactures spec 300 watts my tested results 65 watts. An over simplification I know but you get the point!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Wow. That's terrible. Are they using a very different THD limit for that rating or something?

[@jgsabato]

It is good to have the real numbers, especially if you are using them to figure out how much power you need to hit reference levels. With Klipsch, you will be off by at least 4x power wise. Yikes! The other thing to keep in mind if you are trying to do the calculation, is the 2.83v = 1 watt in to 8 ohm speakers, it takes 4v to = 1 watt in to 4 ohm speakers. So you can pretty much knock down the sensitivity rating a bit more on 6 ohm and lower rated speakers. At least the range you use is generally out of the high impedance range resulting from box tuning. Thank God for small favors 🙂

[@shipsahoy1793]

Ohm’s Law says 2V, not 4V, provided you’re talking about a resistive load (you can’t undermine George Simon…

[@jgsabato]

@@shipsahoy1793 You are correct, my brain was not totally engaged, but the point I made was correct. 2.83V in to a 4 ohm load is a 2 watt input, so you have to knock down the sensitivity that Erin reports by 3db to get the 1 watt sensitivity of that speaker. From there you can figure out the DBw required from an amp to reach the desired output ( and figure out whether the speaker is rated to handle it) To get the best real estimate of sensitivity of a tested speaker, you could estimate the average impedance from 300 to 3000 ( assuming no wild swings in the curve in that range due to the crossover that will likely be in that range on most 2 and 3 way speakers) and then use Ohms law and Watts law to get to the 1 watt sensitivity for that range.

[@shipsahoy1793]

@@jgsabato no problem I knew what you were talking about I’m a retired RF engineer and before that audio, so I can tell you from those experiences that the reason why you’d make a silly mistake like that is because you’re overthinking this thing; it’s really not worth thinking about it on that level .. we didn’t even go down the road of perceived loudness at different frequencies. Erin probably could have narrowed up that 300-3kHz BW a bit. (Less data points😉). 👨🏻 Edit: let me qualify that by saying “on a speaker with a well-behaved impedance over the target frequency range.” I don’t want you to write me another book because I’m not gonna read it. 🤣👨🏻

[@jgsabato]

@@shipsahoy1793 Retired engineer here too, EE by education, but spent 45 years doing Mechanical, Manufacturing, Qualty engineering and learned enough Materials engineering to be dangerous 😛. Such is life when manufacturing Jet Engines. Consulted for a few years after that. The overthinking now comes from stripped gears in the brain not engaging. 😁 Audio has been a 50+ year hobby, as good a vice as any to have.

[@TheReverendSlim]

You mean manufacturers exaggerate their specs to better market their products? I am appalled! Look at my hand clutching these pearls! 😄Great video, man.

[@davidmiller1534]

Kudos to Erin's Audio Corner for posting this and naming names of some of the culprits. This has become an issue in the industry, for example, John Devore of Devore Fidelity has decried the industry's lack of standards for speaker efficiency and the dubious nature of some manufacturer's claims. This is a prime example of why person's claiming measurements don't tell us anything about how a speaker will perform are full of crap; that would be you, Steve Guttenberg.

[@Mark-ro5zg]

Thank you Erin for getting this information together. I bought a pair of the Klipsch RP600M's about 3 years ago. There was a lot of hype about these speakers and a friend recommended them to me. I had heard that Klipsch over rates their speaker sensitivity but didn't think it was that far off. BTW, Jamo is pronounced Ya-Mo, not Jam-O.

[@justiceforall2367]

Thanks for your information, Erin I Concur. In a way that's like Car Companies, with their Gas Mileage Range Rating's. ⛽

[@bassxtcy]

Great insight! I love the fact you present data and especially comparisons not available elsewhere.

[@michaeldelaney6256]

You have def earned a "sorry not sorry" attitude with regards to this. Epic transparency and honesty, you own a fucking klipple for crying out loud. These manufactures must know they cant keep getting away with this shit. Cheers bud!

[@34332]

I can imagine manufacturers 'hesitate' to advertise their real numbers in order to stay competitive with brands that provide very optimistic numbers. I've seen many topics where people prefer and advice certain speakers just because of this high sensitivity. Cheers to Erin (and other critical sites) for bringin' the truth and unmasking some sketchy business. 👌

[@erikandmarcie]

This is their real numbers, the problem is users incorrectly assume they use the same standard to measure. That's not the manufacturers' intent, that's only the users' intent. So apples-oranges.

[@scotth6814]

This reminds me of the old days when some unscrupulous manufacturers rated amplifiers in ridiculous myriad ways, like "music power", some of them into absurd impedance loads and totally ignoring distortion, sometimes combining multiple channels. It was only after consumers complained that we got a standard of RMS power per channel at, say, 1% THD. So some manufacturers used to rate eg. a 40W RMS per channel amp at like 1000W "music power" (and they didn't tell you that's at 10% THD into 2 ohms, combining 2 or 4 channels, for 1 ms).

[@razisn]

Indeed but you may not be happy to know that the current CTA specification which dictates measuring the speaker sensitivity at 2.83V which Erin follows rather than at 1W does a similar thing penalising high ohm speakers vs low ohm and difficult to drive speakers. See my other comments for more detail.

[@cafhead]

music power thats hilarious

[@paulmcdonough9595]

Well said Erin, the despite the fantastic progress that manufactures have made during the 50 years that I have been interested in the world of HiFi, I find it disturbing that they struggle to be clear about their claims, seemingly embracing the megaphone of marketing and the obscuration and folk law proliferated by forums pushing and amplifying their message whilst branding those who seek the truth to be the lost souls. I cringe when I hear the expression "I don't need measurements, I trust my ears".

[@ScotDouglas]

Luckily for me, I am male and instinctively overcompensate for everything from hrspwrs to watts

[@keepingupwiththejones2933]

😭😅🤣❤❤

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

LOL

[@1337sim1]

Great video Erin, thank you! Another way to look at it: If you are testing 2 pairs of speakers at home, don't forget to volume match them! 🤘😎

[@RennieAsh]

And sometimes, the frequency response is too wacky to match properly, so it has to be ballpark. Then you get the "sounds good on one thing, not on the other and vice versa" . It's difficult to pick sometimes

[@mfr58]

Some say that 2.83V is a misleading ref, you should use 1watt, as this accounts for impedance differences rather than assuming constant 8 ohms. So the 2.83V figure is usually a couple of db higher than the 1 watt figure.

[@Inabottle]

Surprised how little standardization there is in this industry, its very sad.

[@jvgabs3022]

Hi, how do we measure sensitivity of a speaker driver that has no enclosure? do we need to play it free air? or we have to make a box for it?

[@abdo-dr1tu]

I own a pair of Sansui SP1200 from 1973 and even back then the company provided an on-axis measurement on the brochure along with distortion measurements, this is way before computers became a thing. If a company does not at the very least provide these two then you should take your money elsewhere. It’s literally the bare minimum.

[@michaelcorlet2998]

With regards to horn speakers measuring 2pi sensitivity is correct because that is the point of horns to direct the sound at the listener,not the walls.😮

[@bartvanransbeeck1341]

In the '70ies and 80'ies most cimpanies gave exact efficiency figures : kef , rogers, tannoy, jbl, focal, cabasse, philips, isophon, grundig, altec, onken, goto, beyma, rcf, fane...etc....

[@shipsahoy1793]

Kudos to you, Erin. I also am so tired of all these audio equipment manufacturers hiding product truths from consumers who actually care how they are spending their money! Someone needs to kick these guys in the a$$. Thank you, my friend! 👏👨🏻

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Glad it was helpful!

[@TickleFingers]

Well, I'm glad Stereo Integrity is giving correct measurements for their drivers based on your review of the M3 Carbons. Hopefully you will measure their new 8" driver when it comes out. The 8" drivers you reviewed so far are just meh 😕 for what I'm looking for.

[@pushslice]

This is so insightful & valuable. Thank you for sharing your data and explanations on this stuff. any experience with Tekton's speakers? I'm looking at them to pair with low-ish tube amps. Would be curious if they are shining us in Klipsch-like fashion...

[@detlevdebertin8209]

I checked out how PSB advertises their sensitivity and they do it the letter. PSB uses anechoic (1W (2.83v)@1m IEC filtered Pink Noise, C-weighted) They then provide a typical room sensitivity which is 2db higher which makes sense.

[@randyroberson1179]

Great video, how do you feel about the NHT super zero's? Im guessing I have the original a-450's?

[@stoneeh]

1:02 hey, that's great - let's save money not damping enclosure resonances, take the peak of the worst resonance as our sensitivity value, and we have an ultra loud ultra cheap speaker! It's magic, I tells you!

[@CasnioMiCasio]

There are some speaker that are made with the Sensitivity or Efficiency not written in dB but written only like 1.8 Watt or 2.5 Watt. What does that mean , what is their sensitivity in dB then ?

[@audiosmackdown]

can you provide all of us that chart of rated v. actual sensitivity?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Sure. I’ll need to format it so it’s easier to read but I’ll provide the link once I get the time to do that.

[@tombrennan6312]

Many speaker companies hope customers are ignorant of Hoffman's Iron Law and will swallow a claim of 35 hz from a 3 cubic foot box and a sensitivity of 100db.

[@schemkesa]

WHere can we find this graph

[@MidFiMan]

I totally buy that Klipsch is bumping their numbers significantly. That's odd coming from a company that says their motto is "No Bull Shit." With that being said, at Audio Advice Live, their demo of the Cornwalls on a Teac 70wx2 amp was one of the best demos of the show, IMHO. I was so impressed I think that's my next buy, amp and all.

[@joshua43214]

In fairness to Klipsch, the corner horn really must be measured in room since it uses the walls. One can see them continuing to do this with the Heresy and Cornwall. No real excuse for them to do this with their discount line though.

[@MrMarcin4500]

can you measure the speakers - magnate lcr 100 THX. I'm wondering whether to buy the rest for home theater or replace it with -monoprice thx-465iw

[@JeffAdairKTM530]

Dynamics - Take so many things to get right in the car - It took me like 10 years to get there

[@andrewconger5045]

Thanks!

[@VicariousAdventurer]

We need to know accurately just how sensitive our speakers and special others are

[@razisn]

Doesn't measuring at 2.83V result in an unfair advantage for lower impedance speakers when one is looking for amplifier power required? 2.83V is 1W for an 8Ohm speaker but 2W for an 4Ohm speaker. Wouldn't be better if the sensitivity was quoted at 1W rather than 2.83V?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

The CTA standard uses 2.83 V.

[@razisn]

@@ErinsAudioCorner Indeed but you have not answered my question. Most consumers need to check the sensitivity to select an amp not in order to know the sensitivity at a constant voltage. Consumers do not care about output voltage. Two 89db speakers at 2.83V and at 1m will have different power requirements for the same output level. You will need to deduct 3db from the rating of a 4Ohm speaker to make it comparable to an 8Ohm one with regards to their power requirements. Furthermore, since true speaker impedance is not constant throughout the frequency range, disregarding the impedance in the rating makes the rating even more worthless. Quite a few manufacturers quote sensitivity at 1W.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

@@razisn (nearly all) amplifiers are constant voltage devices.

[@razisn]

@@ErinsAudioCorner Maybe you are still not getting what I am saying. Yes, they are constant voltage devices but they need more power for that voltage when load decreases, I'm sure you know that. Consumers DO NOT understand neither do they CARE about voltage. They need to have an idea about how many watts their speakers will require. In a nutshell they care about speaker EFFICIENCY not sensitivity the way CTA and you measure it. John DeVore of DeVore fidelity discusses this exact same thing in a video in his channel named: 'John DeVore goes on a rant about the High End Audio lie that inspired him to start his company'. If you don't care about what I'm saying maybe you care about what he is saying.. He is also discussing about why the CTA standard changed at some point from 1W to 2.83V. Maybe you would want to watch and comment on that video. I personally feel the same as John. Measuring sensitivity at 2.83V is legal cheating that helps manufacturers of lower efficiency speakers. If you don't agree then why don't you tell us why?

[@razisn]

@Douglas Blake I have discussed this too much in here and I am not going to discuss this further. YOU can go back and read carefully what I had to say in this and other posts or watch the nice video by John DeVore that I have mentioned. I will only repeat that speaker electrical sensitivity as currently measured in terms of voltage and not power is useless to the consumer. What does a voltage of 2.83V mean to you as a consumer? At which power level does your amp produce 2.83V? You may be surprised to knowthat this depends on the speaker impedance and thus a speaker rated at 89db maybe much much harder to drive than another speaker rated at 89db thus requiring much more power and a much more beefy amplifier. Enough from me on this topic.

[@MrCthur]

Do I further need to adjust the 2.83v number based on impedance? like -3dB if it's 4ohm? or is that okay because 2.83 is gain and not power?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

All the numbers I discuss are referenced to 2.83v/1m.

[@jeremiahchamberlin4499]

Very useful and direct video; it’s a shame that it is necessary. Would not have thought that a well-known company like Klipsch would be guilty of such overstatement.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Jeremiah, thank you for watching and I’m glad this helped. As Douglas said, Klipsch does tell how they rate their speakers but it’s so abnormal that it can be viewed as deceitful *if* one doesn’t know how they are rated. And the real issue is that retailers don’t tell us. I think that’s due to them not understanding the significance or manner, either.

[@dan_hitchman007]

Klipsch has used "fuzzy" specs for some time. Between producing some really fatiguing speakers and fudging their spec data (for the most part), I have them scratched off my speaker manufacturer list.

[@crazydwarfer]

Thanks for the video. Can you tell the difference between the Emotiva T2+ and B1+ in your measurements and the manufacturer's specs? Thanks in advance :) Great video as usual.

[@razisn]

I mentioned this in my reply to one of Erin's replys on another comment I made but I will also put it here in case anyone is interested. The 2.83V sensitivity measurement specification, while scientifically correct, is not appropriate and is misleading to the consumer as it penalises benign load (high ohm) speakers and helps inefficient difficult to drive speakers. Many amp to speaker incompatibilities would not be afflicting consumers if sensitivity was measured based on power rather than voltage. In addition it does not take into account changes in speaker impedance and thus efficiency across the measurement frequency range. To know why please watch a John DeVore of DeVore Fidelity video in his channel named: 'John DeVore goes on a rant about the High End Audio lie that inspired him to start his company'

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

You’re assuming constant impedance (pure resistance). No speaker is that way from 20-20k. If you assume the same impedance throughout then, sure, using wattage might make sense. But loudspeakers have different impedance phase and magnitude that will alter the “watts” per frequency. As we often see, the nominal impedance is practically never truly indicative of the true impedance (resistance @ frequency). Imagine calculating sensitivity based on watts, where the wattage can easily vary wildly from one frequency to the next. Additionally, (nearly all) amplifiers are constant voltage sources. AVRs to separates. That’s why constant voltage makes more sense.

[@razisn]

@@ErinsAudioCorner I am not assuming that since I have already mentioned it. If you accept the notion of nominal impedance as a spec, why can't you accept the notion of nominal sensitivity? Even if nominal it would be much more helpful to the naive consumer than the 'scientifically accurate' but useless sensitivity at some voltage reference. We are discussing specs of consumer items here not scientific instruments. You yourself have produced this video to help consumers and I agree with everything you said but this. Thanks for listening.

[@razisn]

@@Douglas_Blake It makes sense to a large part of the manufacturer community and the whole of the pro world. It doesn't make sense to you and that's ok, there are more thick headed people out there, you're not alone.

[@Rockhurst22]

That chart is awesome!, but with the labels at an angle it is hard to see what bars line up with what labels. So if you post this table I'd suggest helping me line it up with a dotted line or change the orientation.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Agreed. It was only meant to show overall trends. I’ll clean it up and make the link public sometime this week.

[@welderfixer]

Talk about lack of info. I thoroughly enjoy my Emotiva speakers, but I have to wonder why they do not print the impedance of the speaker on the speaker. It wouldn't hurt to have all of the factory specs printed on the speaker. Maybe Emotiva is just that high on the Audiophile ladder. But, hey I can always the "as tested" specs on a speaker from Erin. Thank you Erin!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Honestly, impedance isn’t anything I’ve ever been too concerned with because I use separate power amps. But you are correct. Some of these single number specs are also useless. Might be worth making a video on that.

[@welderfixer]

@@ErinsAudioCorner Thanks. I hope to get a "big boy" separates rig someday. At this very minute I'm running my Emotiva T-Zero set on "large" in my AVR and the 4ohm rating doesn't bother the Onkyo at all. I must say the bass is impressive. I got up and checked to see that my sub was off. Dang - I like it!! 👍😁👍 Numbers do matter, but right now I'm just enjoying the music 🎶. Ahhh. Thanks so much for all you do Erin.

[@billd9667]

In my experience, the vast majority of speakers of similar design have roughly equal sensitivity in practice. Horns are a bit more efficient, bass reflex next, acoustic suspension, open baffle, planar and then electrostatic. The most sensitive I’ve owned were Tekton Lores at about 90dB. The least were Magnepans, which were power sponges and never seemed to be “loud”, no matter how much I fed them, and I fed them a lot. A 200w amp would go into thermal shutdown at 90dB. You do the math. I currently own Wharfedale Lintons and there is no way that they are 90dB. The Buchardt S300s (rated at 86dB) are louder. I did once have double Advents (sealed) and they got really loud, but add 86dB and 86dB and you have, what, a real 92dB!

[@RennieAsh]

Wouldn't that be 89dB? Or am I thinking of impedance 8 vs 4 ohm paralleling ?

[@NamTran-xc2ip]

Can you add time stamps pls

[@jonuiuc]

Sorry I should have left this on the older video, but I just remembered I had this question now. I noticed in the Linton and Model 5 vid, for the MD relative to the fundemental, they had different values. Like the linton was graphed at 1.22, 3.3, and 8.95; and the model 5 was graphed at 1.53, 4.16, and 11.26. Is there any reason for that? does that mean they can't be compared apples to apples? Regarding sensitivity, yeah I never take the manufacturers numbers that serious.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

MD is how much distortion there is relative to the fundamental, correct. But they are tested the same way (4 spl: 70/78/86/96dB at 1m). So, you can compare them directly. The differences will just be how much distortion there is at each voltage.

[@ferrisburgh802]

My Martin Logan 60XTs have the following: Sensitivity: 94dB/2.83 volts/meter (91dB/1W/meter. Home Theater Review comes in at 90.6db/1W which seems on what you're saying seems to acceptable if I understand what you are saying in your video.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Yea, if their spec is within a couple dB I think that's reasonable. Ideally it would be closer but different measurement methods and calculating the SPL may yield different results. But this is why having the frequency response helps.

[@Edward135i]

Erin you should have titled this "Klipsch we need to talk"

[@kevincheong1516]

Why 2.83V instead of using 1Watts? 1W is more absolute in my opinion.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

2.83v is 1w at 8 ohm. Amplifiers are constant voltage sources. Not constant wattage. The impedance is what determines power. Plus, the CTA standard calls for 2.83v. 👍

[@razisn]

See about this issue in the discussions under my comments in this video. Constant voltage is probably more scientifically correct but useless as a tell tale of efficiency since it disregards impedance. Using power can more easily be understood by consumers who tend to think sensitivity = efficiency.

[@bertroost1675]

I do not understand how my KLH Model Six speakers can be driven somewhat decently by a 1 watt 6as7g amplifier.

[@ch.575]

Would love to see a review of the NHT C LCR Center Channel, seems like it might be a contender for a decent sub $500 center speaker.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Actually, that’s coming in the next few months.

[@guillermocubillos9727]

😂 ok. I don’t like their speaker sensitivity rating and they won’t provide the way you want it… but i loooove the sound of the speaker. Should I not buy them? 😏

[@PrezidentHughes]

Kanto doesn't seem to offer much information. But I like their overall package and components. Maybe that's the risk I'm willing to take. But definitely concerned.

[@hiresaudiocosta873]

What about amplification topography ? How does that affect sensitivity? I would think that Class A amplifiers may provide higher levels at various frequencies. Am I wrong?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

No. Speaker sensitivity is related to the speaker only. The amplifier doesn’t alter the sensitivity rating.

[@johnviera3884]

Erin’s gone mad !

[@stormsj]

Or lets demand better active home audiophile speaker choices! Let them deal with powering it correctly in their design efforts! Haha.

[@pwmaudio]

As much I like your content, your sensitivity based on 2.83V is not the best solution because the speaker with the lowest impedance will have the higher number, which goes against a fair apple-to-apple comparison. 2.83V into a 8ohm load gives you 1W of electrical output but 2.83V into 4ohm gives 2W... The right way of doing it is by fixed Power, not by fixed voltage. That's how we do it in pro audio, following AES standard, so the sensitivity is expressed in dB SPL at 1W/1m. basically, the voltage you send to the speaker is dependent of Zmin. Another thing, I think the bandwidth you choose to evaluate the sensitivity is too narrow and not pertinent. Personally, I use 100 to 10000Hz, which is more representative of music and not only voice zone. And also, don't forget the Flecher Munson curves that tell us that our hear is the most sensitive at 3.5khz, out of your selected zone, which is also very unfortunate... Otherwise, always a pleasure to watch your videos. Keep the good work.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

The CTA standard uses 2.83v.

[@johnstone7697]

How does one determine sensitivity via power, if the impedance is all over the map? What frequency do you choose? Show me a speaker systems besides perhaps a Magnepan or similar planar magnetic that posseses anything approaching a flat impedance curve.

[@pwmaudio]

@@johnstone7697 AES standard is based on Zmin

[@pwmaudio]

@@ErinsAudioCorner and AES is 1W. What's your point ? I would prefer you discuss the pros and cons of each method instead of following blindly a standard. I told you why 2.83V is not a good way. I'm waiting for your counter argument to start a useful discussion. In fact, 2.83V is so terrible that many professional transducer companies know very well the drawbacks and how people test, that they built drivers with lower and lower impedance over the years. What 10 years ago every 18" pro woofer had a Re above 5.8 ohm (to match the 8ohm nominal category), nowadays same companies ship "8ohm" 18" woofers with Re at 5 ohm or below. The reason is that it provides higher sensitivity number at 2.83V testing and sound louder when you do AB listening...

[@razisn]

@@pwmaudio See about this issue in the discussions under my comments in this video. Constant voltage is probably more scientifically correct but useless as a tell tale of efficiency since it disregards impedance. Using power can more easily be understood by consumers who tend to think sensitivity = efficiency. Erin does not seem to be getting this, but JohnDevore of DeVore fidelity does and he has published a video about it. Many well respected British and European manufacturers have stuck to 1W and kudos to them.

[@psyphonyxaudio]

I have a guess about Sensitivity ...where People are more sensitive than the gear =)

[@stevenswall]

This sounds like a problem if one shops for a home theater receiver and then the speakers, and can't add a more powerful amp. Amps seem cheap and powerful these days. Not a sensitive speaker? Shove more power into it. Distortion and SPL matter... Not sensitivity directly. What am I missing? Why do people look at this spec? (Dynamics also has to be carefully addressed, a higher sensitivity speaker isn't expanding the dynamic range. Again, I think SPL and distortion matter here, not sensitivity, unless sensitivity is expanding the dynamic range of a song, [not the peak volume of the system.])

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I don’t disagree. But many make purchase decisions because they assume higher sensitivity equals a better product. As we know, that’s not always true (even when it does actually have higher sensitivity, there are other factors that matter more).

[@BTW...]

No ElectroVoice ratings? Is this only 'consumer' stuff.

[@erikandmarcie]

Fantastic and EXTREMELY useful video, but some clarifications are needed. The sensitivity ratings are fine, it's the non-standardized use/measurement case that's misunderstood and you have beef with. You're incorrectly assuming manufactures' intend to standardize the measurement method, but that's not their intent nor priority...that's only the users' intent and incorrect assumption. Agreed manufactures purposefully allow the misinformation to perpetuate to their advantage. Also, please discuss the trade-offs Better efficiency is worse for other metrics, but this video incorrectly implies higher efficiency is always better which is incorrect.

[@overnightdelivery]

Klipsch is always saying their speakers are like 99-100+ dB Sensitivity 😆 Always felt it had to be wrong. But most people don't look into how they get the numbers.

[@dan_hitchman007]

Klipsch comes across as a snake oil company like many audiophile cable manufacturers. They prey on the ignorance of their potential customers with shiny and nonsensical specs that attract the rubes.

[@hdtvkeith1604]

Klipsch is clearly misleading, which is odd becasue their speakers are very highly sensitive. I pulled out Klipsch RS35 rated at 97db and put in Arnedal 1961 heights rated at 84db. I have to increase the Arendal about 6db to be at same volume as the Klipsch, so it is easily 6db over rated.

[@Dannyboy623]

Please review PSA speakers

[@peterdoe2617]

GREAT point! I hope by somewhen next year I'll be able to measure on my own. Pretty excited, actually! (I wanna build DIY speakers. Still need to buy / build some of that equipment.I got fired up for this by the channel: "Frank's Werkstatt der Lautsprechertechnik"), here on YT.

[@degreesdegrees-jr4eg]

sensitivity is a calgulation like other TS small parameters is. ... understand this bro.

[@Mishael_Agyei-Boamah]

are you purposefully being obtuse? there is a standard for measuring sensitivity... a literal IEC standard and you're here asking Erin to understand it? Really

[@degreesdegrees-jr4eg]

@@Mishael_Agyei-Boamah read my statement agen

[@Cocteau61]

You forgot to mention that Klipsch measures sensitivity is the same way it has done since 1947: at 1W not 2.83V

[@razisn]

which is appropriate if true, imho since it is more meaningful to consumers. Why should the average consumer care for a speaker has sensitivity of 98db at 2.83V if that same speaker drops to 2 Ohm for much of the freq range and is a beast to drive with anything but a Krell? quoting at constant voltage may be more scientifically correct but is misleading when comparing speakers of different (nominal) impedances because consumers tend to equate sensitivity to efficiency. Quoting at 2.83V is very convenient for manufactures of low impedance speakers btw. John DeVore has argued about this same issue in one of his videos too.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

That is incorrect. Look at their current specs. “2.83v/1m*” “*SPL at 1M, half-space anechoic with 2.83V input, in-room sensitivity”

[@BoyGenius-1]

Have you tested any Tekton Design stuff? Full disclosure, I own Tekton Electrons for LCR.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I have not. I’d like to. I reached out to them in early July and they said to check after July 4th but so I did … and now I can’t get Tekton to reply to my emails anymore. Not sure what happened there. 🤷‍♂️

[@zzt231gr]

Klipsch!

[@summerforever6736]

My speaker is 115db sensitive

[@bingdong8571]

Who said higher sensitivity means a better speaker?

[@chuckmaddison2924]

Not necessarily so. See Paul from PS Audio .

[@Mishael_Agyei-Boamah]

well he never said that

[@masterofdisaster492]

Wait, you're saying some manufacturers are deceptive with their ratings ? Perish the thought

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Hogwash!

[@techsamurai11]

Geez, Klipsch 😁 Very sensitive speakers!

[@MichaelBeeny]

Dreadful speakers in EVERY way.

[@techsamurai11]

@@MichaelBeeny Well, reviews have been positive especially the heritage line.

[@DearSX]

wont lie, I look at sensitivity as a big sound plus

[@TheTrueVoiceOfReason]

I grew uo through the bad old days of no audio measurement standards. Unfortunately, this jaded view knows all too well of what you speak. Now go and Excel my friend!😁

[@RaySpainPlayer]

Spoken like a real engineer. Subscribed.

[@joedeegan3870]

Stereo is a gimmick!

[@robertbrenner610]

I have to say that this topic is overrated. Firstly, the 2.83v/1 meter standard is primarily for designers, it has little relevance to end users. No one listens in anechoic chamber. Setting a standard based on something like minimum amplifier power and load impedance would be much more applicable to the consumer. Moreover, amplifier power requirements are usually way over stated, A 10 watt amp provides 10 db of power, a 50 watt, about 17 db. This is more than enough power for the vast majority of speakers in a typical home for music. Movies may require sub woofers to fully power the bass sound effects without impeding dialog, but this is apart from powering the main speakers. I had a SET amp, at about 8 watts of power, unable to satisfyingly drive a pair of Ruark speakers. That is the only underdrive condition I have experienced in my home. It's more often the opposite condition - the speakers' compress before the amp is anywhere near distorting. I've had Spica TC 50s and Q acoustics 3020i s compress at admittedly loud volumes, but still below 95 db at the listening seat (peak spl locked measurement with music). Ive also experienced "ribbon slap" on nearly every magnepan I've heard at volumes only a bit louder than I would normally listen - way below the clip points of the amps driving them. in short, I think consumers can safely ignore spl ratings unless they have very low power amps or low cost receivers. The lack of standardization may be a valid point, but i think changing the metric to something more comprehensible and applicable to the consumer is the real solution

[@wesselingaudiodesign5031]

Did you watch(and understand the content) the entire video? The topic is not Overrated! The video is perfect and information within needs to be conveyed and understood by the speaker buying public.

[@robertbrenner610]

@@wesselingaudiodesign5031 "The video is perfect and information within needs to be conveyed and understood by the speaker buying public." That is basically what I was trying to say - apologies for a less than clear expression. The sensitivity metric requires a level of engineering knowledge and mathematical conversions to make it useful to consumers. In other words, they need to watch a video like this to understand what the metric is conveying. This should not be necessary for a metric designed to be useful to the consumer. My second point, and where the "overrated" moniker is directed, is that this metric is not all that critical in the modern market. Most speakers will work with a 50 watt amp and many will do fine with considerably less. Only if you are diving into SET territory or using a cheap theater-in-a-box/$30 amazon Class D cigarette case amp would you really run into lack of power issues.

[@robertbrenner610]

@Douglas Blake Quite a few makers do offer this type of metric. What I'm suggesting is if we standardize any metric, lets go for one like this, as opposed to 2.83v @ i meter. This requires engineering knowledge and mathematical conversions most consumers have no idea about. As audiophiles and hobbyists, we don't consider that the vast majority of buyers have no idea what sensitivity is and have to rely on the salesman for education. Lets make it simple for the buyer so they don't have to take a salesman's word or stumble across videos like this one to figure out if their amp will play loud enough with their next speaker

[@wesselingaudiodesign5031]

@@robertbrenner610 Got all your points, thanks for the clarification! My take away from the video is the issue of relative response in frequency amplitude. People are buying speakers with a 10db or more rising response towards 10-20khz. These will sound extremely bass deficient. I think consumers need to be hyper aware of this!

[@robertbrenner610]

@Douglas Blake In all truth unless you are a/b comparing, 6db is nothing we're going to hear as a distinct entity. Really it's not like one speaker is LOUD and the other can only whisper ... it's a slight difference at best. Could not have said it better! Nearly everyone I talk with is shocked that a 200 watt amp would not give you a noticeable maximum volume increase over a 100 watt one and maybe a hair's width more rotation with a 50 watt amp. That's assuming you're listening at volumes where the amp is close to clipping, which is extremely unlikely unless you're using a SET or 10 watt class D mini amp ( and as SETs clip very differently than solid state amps, overdrive with these amps is often not noticeable or at least tolerable.)

[@Tunnelsnakes]

Yup, this has always been one of the most confusing specs whenever I go comparing speakers between different manufacturers, to the point that it almost feels meaningless. There’s just no consistency between the manufacturers at all. There really needs to be a (de facto) standard set in the industry.

[@stevenswall]

I will probably never look at sensitivity in my entire life, and I haven't paid attention to that as a specification, ever. Have you ever screwed in a modern light bulb and needed to know how many volts or watts or amps were going into it per lumen? For speakers and light bulbs and basically everything else in this day and age, power is cheap and easy... Or in many cases totally irrelevant like with active monitors. Manufacturers should publish SPL and distortion data I think, but sensitivity doesn't seem to affect sound quality so limiting a system by that spec seems odd when amps are cheaper than ever.

[@DougMen1]

I largely agree with you to a certain extent. However, if you have a large room and like to listen at high levels (which will permanently damage your ears in short time) or have a speaker that is hard to drive and dips very low in impedance with a troublesome phase angle along with it, you may run out of power and clip your amp, which can destroy your tweeters pretty easily.

[@scotth6814]

@@stevenswall Yes, but even if you have unlimited watts, you can't put unlimited watts into a speaker without blowing it up. That's why sensitivity combined with maximum RMS power handling is important.

[@stevenswall]

@@scotth6814 I think you need SPL in there.

[@scotth6814]

@@stevenswall Sensitivity is measured in SPL.

[@kodiak2053]

Top drawer no bullshit video. Erin delivers again. Thankyou. Keep up the great work.

[@matthewfrazee3352]

Thanks Erin. I bought the revel 226be based on your review and a short listen at a dealer. I couldn’t be happier. You are by far the best speaker reviewer on KZbin.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

I really, really like that speaker.

[@matthewfrazee3352]

@@ErinsAudioCorner we need fair minded data driven guys like you. Something about Amir at audio science review rubs me the wrong way. Testing then listening as he seems to do seems disingenuous and smacks of confirmation bias. His attacks on other reviewers seems mean spirited also.

[@brucermarino]

Standardization of measurements is what makes comparisons possible. At least Klipsch tells you how they're not standardized. In all events, excellent work and much needed work once again!

[@voiceofreason9238]

I think you are making a straw man argument on this point. You are getting "upset" because you contend that the phrase "higher sensitivity makes the speaker sound better." Said no one, ever. I do think you will hear a manufacturer claim that "higher sensitivity will make a speaker easier to drive" ie it will take less power to make a speaker produce equivalent SPL than one with lower sensitivity. I think we can find common ground on that. FYI, I'm just trying add another view point to a worthwhile discussion. Not trying to win an argument here. We're all friends. 😎

[@ethimself5064]

Surely the better quality manufactures have not stooped this low. Even lower end Japanese manufactures. I mean in the $300/pr range +

[@NosEL34]

I'm glad this topic was brought up and explained, so everyone can be aware that the numbers most/some manufacturers supply to the public is either outright wrong or misleading.Measured by peaks/ low-points and not on average..or they only give us numbers at a specific frequency..well I don't listen to just one frequency lol. It friggin irritates me..and it's not just speakers. It's all very misleading and we the consumer have to find out the hard way after we've spent our hard earned dollars. This is why 2nd and 3rd party testing is so important to us...real numbers in real world applications. How these numbers were determined I think Erin said, at least this should be added when giving us the specs from the manufacturer.

[@adamjj85]

Boom! Well done Erin! Maybe you can tackle the inconsistencies in F3 and F10 measurements next!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

In the works. Thanks!

[@-elijahriggs-]

Erin is going the lord's work.

[@MichaelLHill-fd3kw]

Yea you nailed it and I appreciate you and your honesty and speaker measurements I have not bought a set of speakers that didn’t require power. I have a set of speakers that are vintage speakers and I am so pleased with them and I have a set of vintage speakers that cost 3 times the price but I need 1000 watts to wake them up and I have cheap Polk Audio I would rather use , but I have a couple sets of DCM from the original speakers and I will have to say that I like them a lot and they told me that they are only 88db and no more but they sound great.

[@avnut5517]

Trust no one....but me ... And a few select others. Sad that this is where the industry has gone.

[@Mjaybird]

You give us graphs and talk about what you are seeing. You are straight with us if the speaker is good or bad

[@ericharrelson32]

Really helpful information, thanks.

[@gaurd3]

I was going to post Klipsch is known for this but that mountain in the middle on you graph said it all

[@keepingupwiththejones2933]

That thumbnail 😅😭🤣. " It was determined that was a lie". Best thumbnail ever 😭🤣😅

[@TechnoDad]

You are NOT the father!! Lol!

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Ahhhh, man!!!