BS951 Clamps - Connecting Bonding Conductors to Metallic Pipes

[@MrWeddingPhotography]

The only tip I’d add is to use wire wool to clean the pipe first to ensure good conductivity especially on older/dirtier pipes.

[@millomweb]

Completely missed - in this unusually poor quality video.

[@millomweb]

@bill bergovoy It's not mechanical connection that's important, it's electrical connection.

[@mattykins86]

Also, make sure there isn't any labels in the way as they are also insulators :)

[@muzikman2008]

It did look like a "metalic aluminised" label though, and although aluminium has a higher resistivity, and is still a no no, we will forgive JW :-) he he

[@zjzozn]

Silly comment 😂 What about this pipe not being extraneous-conductive-parts and not need bonding 😂😂

[@millomweb]

@@zjzozn But it could fall on live parts - so in fact any loose metallic pipes and other items ought to be earthed at all times ;)

[@millomweb]

@bill bergovoy LOL !

[@Xclub40X]

I call BS.... BS951 on all dislikers We need to clamp down on this. Keep up the good work JW

[@Xclub40X]

JW.. I want to give you a mention in some of my KZbin videos on my channel too... Fancy a collaboration sometime? Yours truly... TA

[@Madness832]

Oddly enough, there are no dislikes (as of the time of this post).

[@Xclub40X]

@@Madness832 BS951 is legit and saves the day. . . 😅😅😅

[@zjzozn]

No thanks

[@Xclub40X]

@@zjzozn nobody cares about your opinion

[@jmohammad3762]

Thanks John. Keep the great Video's coming. I've learnt so much from your inspirational knowledgeable videos.👍👍👍

[@Tangobaldy]

JW I really enjoyed this video. Thank you.

[@Xclub40X]

This video???. All of his videos are gold. Best of all he put them out for free. Legendary 🥰

[@asifkhan5436]

I love this guy. Saved me thousands of pounds thank you

[@oml81mm]

Was in a pub gent's toilet once and hiding under the wash hand basins was a huge tangle of bonding. The problem was that ALL of the connecting straps had come away from the pipes. The straps were all firmly connected together though. I am not a spark, but as far as I could see the whole system was as much good as the proverbial in a space suit.

[@BigJimSportsCamper]

Cromulent 5:55. Well done, Lisa.

[@millomweb]

13:53 I make that 3mm as you've not aligned the top of the lettering with zero. If I was measuring that, I'd use the 10mm mark as zero - so keeping well away from the end of the rule as often ends are damaged and in the case of that one suspiciously poorly marked.

[@barnsley1066]

Seen many of these used for bonding on SWA.

[@jwflame]

They were approved for use on cables in a previous version of the standard, but that was removed a couple of decades ago.

[@millomweb]

@@jwflame I think it bizarre they're now supposedly not suitable.

[@williammartinculleton7523]

Glad your screwdriver never slipped whilst tightening the screw Mr Ward 😂

[@zjzozn]

William Martin Culleton John Ward in the latest horror movie..... Bloody Screwdriver Slipped 😂

[@williammartinculleton7523]

zjzozn Smile please

[@FNUKSTER1366]

Good video , just wondering why at the bottom of lampposts below the lucy connector, they use jubilee clips around the armour for the earth

[@jwflame]

Much easier to tighten up in the confined space, it would be extremely difficult to tighten a conventional gland as there would be no room to rotate the tools. The clips don't crush the cable, as the armour goes over a brass sleeve, with the wires through the centre of the sleeve, so all of the pressure is put onto the brass, not the inner parts of the cable.

[@FNUKSTER1366]

@@jwflame thanks for the reply John 👍

[@millomweb]

@@jwflame That's neat idea and surely doable with SWA ?

[@Viewer765]

Can you put lagging around pipe that’s earthed

[@theseattlegreen1871]

Can I use this in the United States of America? Or is this just a UK thing? I've never seen it in America but I really like it

[@jwflame]

They are a UK product made to a UK only standard so not likely to be found anywhere else. Whether they are acceptable in the USA would depend on the local electrical code there.

[@jaycee1980]

I've seen one of these used to bond to the outer armour of a TN-S power feed to the consumer units earth terminal! Probably not the intended purpose, but was never raised as an issue by the DNO when they looked at it

[@jwflame]

Fairly common to see that, and was actually permitted in the past. Deleted from BS951 about 20 years ago.

[@jaycee1980]

@@jwflame not surprising then given the age of the wiring in my parents house... it still had original rubber lighting wiring (complete with twisted wires protected by ceramic knobs) until about 15 years ago when I ripped the lot out and rewired it (not a qualified spark, but a sensible DIYer.. and it passed the test :)

[@jaycee1980]

@@jwflame what would be the correct termination? Though i guess that is up to the DNO to rectify!

[@jwflame]

Correct item for lead sheathed cable is a roll spring, similar to cablejointingsolutions.co.uk/products/roll-springs/ which is used to hold a copper braid against the lead.

[@muzikman2008]

@@jwflame I wondered that too...cheers

[@MS-yy2dh]

Thanks, great video. I need to earth bond a 10mm copper pipe supplying an oil boiler but I see the smallest these clamps go is 12mm. Any ideas on how I can bond to a 10mm pipe?

[@MS-yy2dh]

In case anyone else is having to bond to 10mm oil pipe - going by conversations on various forums this seems to be a recognised problem, without a readymade solution. The usual strap clamps (as shown in this video) don’t seem suitable as they are too large and in danger of crushing the smaller diameter oil pipe. The solution I adopted (not my own but mentioned on one of the forums) was to repurpose a 3/8” earth rod conductor clamp. These are just a few pounds, are readily available, and are made of solid brass. It is best to get the kind that comes in two halves if you are not able to slip this over the end of the copper pipe. In my case I had to cut the clamp in two (as it was not in two parts) after drilling the hole out to 10mm. I have this fitted now and it seems to do the job quite well.

[@Mike_5]

5:58 Very nice use of a crimped connector for this how many times have we seen a single earth conductor strand randomly wound round the clamp screw in an attempt to make a good connection ?!

[@millomweb]

I have no faith in crimped terminals. I'd always use bare copper, formed a loop and twisted the tail around the copper again. Although that wouldn't be as good as soldering the copper wire direct to the copper pipe.

[@ianharrison6597]

Hello John. Thanks for an excellent video. Only you can take such a dry subject as a piece of essential, passive safety hardware and make a video that’s full of information and just as entertaining as building a machine.

[@TheEulerID]

I do always wonder about those bonding connectors in airing cupboards which connect copper pipes which are mutually connected to a copper hot water tank. No doubt the regulations say they have to be fitted, but the cross-sectional area of a couple of 22mm copper pipes, both attached to a copper tank, is much larger than that of the bonding wire.

[@jwflame]

There is no electrical regulation or reason for them to be installed. Plumbing and gas regulations may say otherwise.

[@bobbybowls]

seen lots around flexible pipes to taps.!

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

Plumbers, say no more.....

[@abdulsaterA]

Thanks a lot, this was very helpful.

[@linxfil]

Hello JW can I ask how you earth a 10mm copper incoming oil pipe from the external oil tank,

[@areyouundoingthatorwhat9181]

Flatten a piece of copper tubing tubing and drill a hole in one end then solder the other end to the pipe giving you an earth tag to bolt a cable to.I have a coated small bore 1/8" copper nickel compressed air pipe entering my mancave from my garage compressor for my airbrushes which I soldered a threaded lug to in a similar fashion,the earth cable is bigger than the pipe!

[@daves4026]

Finally now know how to fit these properly thank you

[@millomweb]

Why do you fit them ?

[@GHOOGLEMALE]

I dare you JW - start off a video with Yo - Wots Appenin' Y'all. Great explanation as always John

[@nw5835]

So what sort of clamp should go on an incoming supply cable in copper for a TN-S system.

[@jwflame]

Constant force spring clamps, such as www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Constant-Force-Spring/?N=5002385+3294176942&rt=rud

[@topchannel1000]

Hi JW thanks for your videos very helpful What would be a suitable use to connect the earth on TN S supply?

[@jwflame]

Constant force springs, such as these: www.expresselectrical.co.uk/Catalogue/Terminate-Connect/Constant-Force-Springs/3M-Constant-Force-Springs used to fix copper braid against the metal cable sheath.

[@topchannel1000]

@@jwflame thank you

[@simonmartin4599]

Do the BS951 regs say you need the crimped lug or is it just good practice? I just split the 10mm earth wire into two and wrap around both sides of the screw before screwing tight.

[@jwflame]

Lugs not required, but they are a better method of connection, particularly for larger sizes of conductor.

[@mathman0101]

John Ward yes better for larger conductors. As I said there was research has shown that technique matters very much poor lugging and poor wrapping techniques are the main problem in terms of loose connections. Research in USA found that proper wrapping technique ( in fact US NEC 2020 110.14(A)) talks about these connection methods - is the key and that out of all the approaches including lugging, wrapping solid conductors correctly around a screw or terminal when tightened and torqued is probably the best approach more surface area of the conductor takes the strain even relative to a lugged conductor where surface area connection to the lug could be smaller. As I said in one of my other posts I think John this would make a great video especially teaching electricians about the merits of different wire connections lugging v wrapping v crimping use a strain gauge bench top testing approach. I do believe however technique matters, and if done correctly all these methods would be suitable alternatives and failure of any of those would be well beyond say a minimal and reasonable safe approach.

[@millomweb]

My response to that is is - conductor strands should not be split - they should remain together and be bent around the clamping screw with the remaining tail wrapped around the wire again. This probably creates a thicker wire than the clamping arrangements may cope with - so get a bigger clamp suitable for the wire - is the correct solution.

[@PaulSteMarie]

Does the UK still permit using plumbing pipes in the grounding path? I believe the current NEC doesn't allow that.

[@rowanNClangley]

No, that went out I think back in 1967.

[@millomweb]

@@rowanNClangley Fortunately, our house is older than that - I think both supply pipes are connected to grounding wires.

[@rowanNClangley]

@@millomweb The wires you have seen are likely to be protective bonding rather than earthing. Their purpose is to connect all the pipework and the main earth together so that a fault cannot creat any potential Difference between the earthed electrical system and gas or water pipework. The Earthing wire would either be taken to an earth terminal provided by the supply company or an earth rod driven into the ground if the location is one where the supply company isn't able to provide an earthing facility.

[@millomweb]

@@rowanNClangley "likely to be protective bonding rather than earthing. Their purpose is to connect all the pipework and the main earth together so that a fault cannot creat any potential Difference between the earthed electrical system" If 'bonding' is connected to 'earthing' then it too is earthing !

[@andrewturpin1994]

Does any manufacturer make these or similar for 8mm and 10mm copper pipe?

[@dd313car]

Yes, in Germany there are some which clamp from 8 mm to 18 mm. For example, company name KLEINHUIS, Typ 37/0 You find them on ebay and others

[@andrewturpin1994]

@@dd313car thank you, I will look them up

[@phildxyz]

So if you were looping to a second pipe, how would you use lugs? Use a large lug and bend the wire back on itself? Just that I believe the wire should be continuous, so I presume you could not use two lugs...

[@jwflame]

Two lugs. Nothing that requires the wire to be one continuous piece.

[@phildxyz]

@@jwflame Thanks John - Don't know where I heard that - urban myth maybe!

[@davidwhitehead6150]

Nothing in BS7671 about this, but I think this where everyone picks up the idea from... BS7430 says. "Where both main gas pipes and main water pipes enter a location, a common bonding conductor may be used, but in such cases that conductor should be continuous or should be permanently jointed (by soldering or crimping) in order to preserve continuity. Such a bonding conductor may also be used in association with other extraneous-conductive-parts".

[@jamesdyas542]

phildxyz seem to remember one of the old on site guides had a drawing of the cable being twisted around the terminal screw and unbroken. Nothing in the current one though.

[@paulrayner4514]

@@jwflame i was always told " it should be one continuous conductor"

[@alanalan9990]

hi where is other end wires goes? thanks

[@jwflame]

The main earth terminal for the building.

[@technic550]

I use a spanner or socket for the clamping screw. Makes me cringe watching other people use a flat blade screwdriver, especially one that is too small

[@gameaccount1612]

I have some questions regarding the bonding conductor. Why is it necessary to be installed ? I'm asking because I've noticed that in my bathroom and kitchen, I have a bonding conductor clamped to the copper pipes, but none of them are actually connected to the outside of my property, as in a conductive material ( in my case water pipe is PVC/MDPE or something ). Another question is, if there is a short and the bonding is connected to these copper pipes, don't they conduct current and may electrocute someone touching the pipes or shower/sink (as these can also be made of conductive material that's fixed to the copper pipe )?

[@millomweb]

Necessary because the regulations say so. Silly/stupid, I'd agree. Better to keep an earth leakage local.

[@gameaccount1612]

@@millomweb I get that regulations say so, but I don't get why :) Is it because of the copper pipes providing a large surface and thicker material for the current to flow through ( higher resistance ) and lowering the voltage of the current ? If so, is it noticeable or effective ?

[@millomweb]

@@gameaccount1612 The theory is that by having all the exposed metal parts wired together, you're not going to get a lethal voltage across them. Thicker conductors lower resistance. I suspect it all kicked off in the early 1980s when stainless sinks were killing people because water heaters and whatnot had been installed without good earthing arrangements. So by running an earth to every tap, there was far more chance the sink would be safely earthed.

[@millomweb]

DJosephWells replied: "pmailkeey Our electric showers earth is RCD protected. But thats as standard precaution as the load is 30 Amps."

[@millomweb]

The RCD protection is for voltage, not current.

[@brewmaster4486]

Wonder if the pipe or the clamp would fail first if tightened too much🤔

[@agicorn6379]

I've seen someone earth swa armour with one of these, what they did was cut a piece of 22mm copper pipe and put the steel wires on the outside of it, and then put a bonding clamp around the steel wires. Certainly quite inventive!

[@Lacking_something]

Apart from colour are the red/blue screws & clamps they're attached to different in any functional way?

[@jwflame]

The only difference between dry location / wet location is the material they are made from. Those for wet locations are supposed to be corrosion resistant.

[@millomweb]

@@jwflame But is the pipe they're being attached to in a wet area also corrosion resistant ? If not, why bother ?

[@SeanPearceUK]

So, obviously these shouldn't be attached to a painted surface... But is it OK for them them to be painted over... As we often see (and is the case in my house - done way before we bought the place!)? For the other kinds of pipes / armoured conductors, are there any valid solutions?

[@millomweb]

If you are a decent electrician, having installed such a clamp, you'd test it for continuity - looking for less than 1 ohm resistance.

[@SeanPearceUK]

@@millomweb I am not an electrician, but was asking from a general layman's perspective; one who owns a house where most of the earthing clamps have been long painted over by previous occupiers. However, point taken that the valid way to check is resistance (by a "decent electrician") :-)

[@millomweb]

@@SeanPearceUK Painted over will not make any difference to underlying conductivity - so I wouldn't worry about that - but feel free to worry about them being placed onto painted pipes ;) Get your test meter out and get prodding :) - but don't puncture any pipes :)

[@dhewitt2514]

Hi, you often see quite considerable pig tails on the earth conductor- is this purely to accommodate any movement in the pipe?

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

Pig tails as in curly bits of wire? Bear in mind that Americans have the term "pig-tailling" as using two wires into a wire-nut to a single wire into a device. Using a curly bit of 10mm² stranded earth conductor, caused me to fail an electrical inspection once, years ago. The reason being was, that even though that is an air-cored coil, under fault conditions, that could cause an impedance that (c)would prevent the circuit protective device from operating, within the required disconnection time.

[@brewertonpaul]

One of my pet hates is pig tails. I have no idea why people started installing like that. It makes for an ugly job in my opinion.

[@millomweb]

@@mikeZL3XD7029 Very interesting ! (and laughable!)

[@anthonybragg]

Its a shame plumbers and builders don't understand the wording "safety electrical connection do not remove.

[@FindLiberty]

COOKED GOOSE - burning human flesh smell

[@millomweb]

It's bizarre that electricians think that pipes to sinks need to be earthed ! (Reason being, as far as I gather, is because they've failed to earth some other electrical component connected to the water pipes. Having had a new boiler & pump fitted at my mother's (Warm Front scheme), I removed the silly tags on the pipes at the boiler but did connect the earth up at the pump the installer failed to do - and also failed to put the terminal cover back on properly.)

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

That's why they are builders and plumbers, electricians can read.

[@millomweb]

@@mikeZL3XD7029 That doesn't mean to say they're competent though ! I knew one bunch incapable of correctly wiring up a 3ph Walsall socket and in another case, managed to make 2 fused switched spurs into a 'ring' !

[@joefrayling9263]

@@millomweb they would need bonding if somewhere in that line was a plastic fitting like a push fit Tee or an elbow for whatever reason. It's called supplementary bonding, if there isn't then it's just equipotential bonding of the pipes under the boiler

[@TheChipmunk2008]

Could it be used for bonding to MICC? I know these days that would be a niche case...

[@jwflame]

I have seen them used in that situation, although it's not really what they were designed for. MICC should be fitted with the proper gland and fixed into a suitable hole in a metal enclosure.

[@TheChipmunk2008]

@@jwflame Cheers for that John. I was thinking of the cases where there's a TN-S supply (probably with Red Head links) in MI from a basement ryefield or similar board. Those (at least round here) tend to be in MI with just a pot, no seal

[@adrianking6309]

Use legrand push fit clamps which twist on and lock tight with a screw.

[@millomweb]

Of course, an electrician would not put such a clamp around a pipe on top of a paper label - especially one stating "22 mm". ;) Sorry, JW, I'm going to fail you on this video. The video ought to include circuit testing once the clamp is attached and ought to include clamping to grotty/painted/rusty pipes where some surface preparation is needed prior to attaching the clamp. It seems the BS does not take into account the need for electrical conduction to take place where such clamps are fitted - but what do you expect from idiots ? A former local heating/plumbing service shop had their boiler proudly on display and in the setup was one of the plastic pipes to a radiator fitted with such an earth clamp. I wished I'd got a photo of it but I didn't !

[@TheChipmunk2008]

Wrapping the wire round can help when doing a 'looped' earth (gas and water close together but distant from the MET). Stops those plumbing types removing it and disconnecting the other service's earth

[@fijtips112]

Put the loop in a lug - best of both worlds 🙂

[@millomweb]

@@fijtips112 Sounds completely crazy !

[@TheManLab7]

I always clean the pipe with a bit of sandpaper so it's bare metal and it gives a good connection. Also JW, remove that's sticker!

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

You were solid until that last line............

[@AngDavies]

@@mikeZL3XD7029 the paper one on the pipe?

[@richieduliban87]

my electrician said that you don’t need to bother with this if everything in the property is RCD connected. Is he correct?

[@muzikman2008]

No he's not.

[@G1ZQCArtwork]

No, he is not, the RCDs would not work correctly, as they rely on them to drain the leak fault.

[@TheChipmunk2008]

Your electrician is wrong and dangerous. You should report him to his CPS

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

@@G1ZQCArtwork "Drain the leak fault" Are you a plumber by chance?

[@brewertonpaul]

Your electrician has forgotten the basic principles. What he said is a bit like saying, you don't need to worry about seatbelts as long as your brake pads are good.

[@tinytonymaloney7832]

What about a video on earthing nuts??? Or piranha nuts as they used to be called. I envy the person who invented them.

[@raymurphy9749]

Only JW could make a 15 minute video about a Tenby clamp interesting

[@TheChipmunk2008]

Tenby haven't existed for a decade or more :O

[@mikeZL3XD7029]

Well, Mr Murphy, we all learned something new today with this video, it's a shame you didn't.

[@18in80]

@@TheChipmunk2008 Apparently manufacturers where asked to design a device for connecting to pipe work. As Tenby was the manufacturer who designed the clamp in the '60s that became the BS standard, the name has stuck.

[@ArlenMoulton2]

lol our house incoming supply cable was fitted with one of these by the electrician which wired our new extension, and then he had the audacity to try and suggest that the whole house needed rewiring because the earths were all high resistance, which they aren't!

[@lordsummerisle87]

I presume you've checked or had some competent person check the rest of his work? Do you reckon he was simply incompetent or touting for extra work?

[@ArlenMoulton2]

@@lordsummerisle87 the rest of his work was fine, he must have just had a dumb day when he was checking the earth resistance of the existing wiring

[@lordsummerisle87]

@@ArlenMoulton2 Fair enough I suppose, we all have dumb days. Why was he mucking about with the earth to the incomer anyway? Isn't that supposed to be DNO-only territory?

[@ОляП-д4х]

good video

[@Mr1bassman1]

Why are electricians still using bonding in modern houses?

[@agicorn6379]

Because the fundamentals of electrical installations have not changed

[@Mr1bassman1]

@@agicorn6379 plastic pipes have changed the fundamentals

[@ashleyrussell4288]

I thought red tag are for explosion areas?

[@effervescence5664]

Absolutely hate these clamps, always finding them fitted in hard to get to areas and done up so bloody tight they've indented the gas pipe. Much prefer the twist and clamp ones that came out a few years ago - right around the time they started putting more n more plastic supplies into buildings.

[@whitefields5595]

Clean the pipe too

[@wthornton7346]

Reminds me of virtually every engineering course I ever took. What starts as instruction and information, ends in tales of how things can go wrong and everyone ends up dying or horribly maimed!

[@molitovv]

Everytime I buy these I am always surprised by how cheap they are. One of those ‘why do they bother’ products.

[@tncorgi92]

You can get them for free if you look around, and have a screwdriver handy... 😊

[@molitovv]

Paul Drake Just checked online Schneider ones are £0.82 each.

[@Tangobaldy]

@@tncorgi92 sounds like a new hobby until someone gets electrocuted and I get arrested for murder.

[@TheChipmunk2008]

@@Tangobaldy Pretty sure that was a joke?

[@alky1311]

£0.67 at Toolstation@@molitovv

[@chazM6116]

let's place it on the label and forget to clean the copper

[@coreyhoward4190]

Has anyone else spotted the sly Simpsons reference in this video? 😂

[@bneon]

Most Gas Pipes are NOT metallic , picky with the Stamp on the clamp bit who has ever checked that ? If you can't insert the earth cable into the clamp it won't matter what is bleedn stamped on the clamp , if you want to be picky don't ever clamp over a pvc pipe label

[@dantovey2785]

Cromulent method :)

[@ShadowzGSD]

can't see the use of these, i have always found that wrapping the wire around the pipe and securing with a bit of tape does the trick. 🤣🤣

[@piratedprivacy9052]

perhaps a large Crocodile Clip would bite it down firmer? 🤫😁

[@FindLiberty]

death trap

[@uncensored5104]

As an auto electrician im surprised that crimps are recommended! They are an absolute no, no in my industry and considered a bodge unless soldered as well as crimped. Also wire that may get tugged slightly, stands a good chance of pulling out! I would have thought that a looped conductor would have been preferable as it is also one less connection from the bonding strap to conductor an very unlikely to pull off?!

[@christophermaddams3723]

JW you should not use a screwdriver facing your hand, if it slips you will stab yourself. Hope you do not mind me pointing this out as I do like your video,s

[@millomweb]

Also, his screwdriver should be earthed.

[@bdf2718]

What a disappointment! I had hoped you were going to pretend to be Big Clive in the intro, to pay him back for kzbin.info/www/bejne/onayfaysaruWfK8 All you need to do is get hold of a black cat and glue it to your chin.