Building a Shower Floor - Hydro Ban Foam Board vs Traditional Shower Pan Membrane With Dry Pack

I ran into my first bathroom remodel where it made sense for me to trade in the old school ways of building a shower floor and try a new method using a preformed polystyrene high density foam shower base. In other words, I tried foamboard on a job! I really don't doubt that these new methods are reliable because they have been around a while and are sold by a number of companies. There are a lot of advantages to using the foamboard over the old school ways primarily in that they are so lightweight and easy to work with. The biggest disadvantage is cost which is substantial when compared to buying materials to build a traditional shower floor. But people make the point which is legitimate that there is labor savings with the newer processes, so that is also something to consider.
After completing the job, I have to admit my reactions were mixed about how I felt about the foamboard materials. Probably not surprisingly, there were things I really liked about it and things I didn't. I can see a potential in my case for using the preformed shower bases with 1/2" Hardibacker on the walls if I can convince myself that the additional cost over a dry pack shower floor is really worth it. We'll see!

[@billydamnit]

"Interesting design by the homeowner." Lol

[@mccarseat]

Great video! Thanks for posting it quickly! I have the same problem of doing a bathroom on a second floor.

[@TheLegend-nx3mm]

Hello Rusty, absolutely stunning job my American neighbor....👍 Over in the UK we use a plaster board, then tile over , Or another option is Aqua board, which is really heavy and supplied in different finishers and no tiling required over aqua borad.. The foam board looks very versatile, and cheap. Superb job. I'm sure the client was very impressed. My choice is the new ...👍 Kind regards Danny uk 🇬🇧 ❤ 🇺🇲 👍🙂🙂

[@RustyDobbs]

Hey, thanks Danny! The Aqua board sounds like an interesting approach. In the States, several decades back, cultured marble was a big seller which may be similar. It is a liquid, poured product, cured into sheets that comes in a variety of colors. In fact, this master bath in the video had a cultured marble tub and shower, plus the vanity top that we tore out. It is still used but the market is pretty limited for it.

[@dannywilsher4165]

Enjoyed watching the master as always!!!

[@RustyDobbs]

Always appreciate hearing from you, Danny!

[@rudysalce4805]

GREAT video Rusty... 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@RustyDobbs]

Thanks, Rudy! I appreciate you watching!

[@stevetami1]

Another great video Rusty! Appreciate the time you take. On the traditional pack do you not gravel around the weep holes? I’ve seen some do, some don’t.

[@RustyDobbs]

Thanks Steve! No, I don't. I don't pack tightly around the drain in my installs but don't have an objection to using gravel either.

[@theothermarshal]

Hi Rusty, another great video and I appreciate your insight! I'm old school because I've had proven, time-tested results from dry pack and I'm a little too nervous to try the new products/methods. In fact, I'm about to do a dry pack walk-in shower in a home my wife & I purchased to renovate (nearly rebuild) & move into. As you also mention, the costs of some of these new systems just seem to be over the top to me. Granted, the convenience & consistency aspect are appealing but that's a whole lot of hamburger and I've made a habit out of eating regularly.

[@RustyDobbs]

Thanks, Marshal, and I hear where you're coming from. I've always considered myself fairly progressive and open to new ideas, but the older I get, there is a pretty good comfort level that comes with working with products you have confidence in over a number of years. In this case, the new shower floor made sense primarily because of the lateral drain and weight concerns about the traditional dry pack. So it seemed reasonable for me to give it a whirl on this job and I'm glad I did. But it didn't make me a convert to the new products and the out-of-pocket costs are certainly higher in my opinion than they need to be for what you get. Thanks for your comment!

[@JusBidniss]

Hey Rusty, great comparison! Have to say, I'm old school on this. On the walls, I can't see putting tile, with its joints that can crack with any flexing, knowingly over a flexible substrate, however much rigidity the thinset and tile adds. And on the base, your older process has durability history spanning decades. How's this product by comparison? Somewhat less than that, I'd imagine. To me, and as the cost vs. labor analysis alluded to, it seems a way to migrate expertise from the craftsman to the material (with a potential lack of durability and longevity), and in that way seems kinda like the material manufacturer eating the craftsman's lunch, and possibly opening up the market to craftsmen with lesser expertise. I may be wrong on both those fronts, and it may turn out to be a perfectly acceptable process that's just a 'new tool in the toolbox', that's my initial take. But again, well done, and well-demonstrated!

[@RustyDobbs]

Hey, JusBidniss! You have made some good points. When you walk into a Lowe's or Home Depot and go through the tile section, it's obvious that the manufacturers are targeting homeowners with an eye to do their own remodels and the foam-based products make it look all the more possible to do. There is no doubt that the contrast between old-school and newer products reflect two different worlds of thinking. That's why I said the foam-based wallboard relying on the thinset and tile for rigidity seemed like a backwards approach. But after everything is installed and grouted, I would be hard-pressed to conclude that a traditional wall would ultimately be any more durable than a foam board wall installed per recommendations after seeing the end result up close and personal. The recommended thinset was a beast to work with... kind of like troweling a thick syrup! You had to get it off your tools and the surface of the tile within just a few minutes or it was a problem. It had a couple hour open working time that you had to be aware of. Any time savings I had from using the preformed base, was eaten up by continual cleaning of trowels and blades I was using as I was installing the tile and making sure I had left no specs of the thinset on the tile surface. But when it dried, it was unbelievably solid. $36 per 50 pound bag, my cost. So, while I get the concept of the new products, I have no interest in converting to using them as a replacement for the old school ways. Half-inch Hardibacker is still the best replacement for the old mud and lath, hand floated walls. I might use the foam bases in the future on a case-by-case basis, like this one with a large shower and a lateral drain. I am coming to see more value in using the waterproof membranes, particularly with the advances in grouts that are available these days. The durability of the grouts may be the understated game changer and the best 'new tool in the toolbox' going forward.

[@JusBidniss]

@@RustyDobbs Good stuff, and interesting observations! Just goes to show, for the title question, the guy I'm trusting for the answer on the new methods, is the master of the old (i.e., Mr Dobbs!). :)

[@chupekea2405]

I dont know Rusty I'm a newer contractor and I feel that the foam has to much room for error. I'll consider switching when the price of the system goes down and when it has been tested more. The lifetime warranty is good because it's the only way I would consider using this system.

[@RustyDobbs]

It seems like your thinking about it in the right way to me, Chupeke, and as a newer contractor I think it's good that you continue to learn about the traditional ways of doing things as well as keeping an open mind to the newer products that come along. Relying on common sense and questioning processes and products that don't strike you quite right are good perspectives to help you be successful in your business. I think there is potential in blending the new with the old somewhat at times and coming up with your own tweaks and changes to methods that make sense to you. Good luck with your work and I appreciate your comment!

[@tomruth9487]

Nice video, thanks. My latest choice has been traditional deck mud for the pan with a Kerdi drain. 5/8" DensShield for the walls instead of cement board, etc. Then Hydroban over everything. I'm just not a fan of foam. Then again, time will tell...

[@RustyDobbs]

Thanks, Tom. Good to hear what you are using. Not familiar with the DensShield. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for watching and for your comments!

[@simgolf503]

I thought you weren't suppose to put thin set directly on a subfloor due to wicking moisture into the wood and that it needs a water barrier?

[@RustyDobbs]

Yeah, I don't think you are incorrect with you basic idea about thinset and a wood subfloor. When building a traditional shower floor, your understanding is correct. This foam board shower base is a different approach entirely. The thinset on the subfloor in this case is just to help secure the foam board base in place. The water barrier is the Hydro Ban green coating on the top of the foam base and subsequent other curb and wall board pieces that attach to the base with waterproof adhesive also coated with Hydro Ban. This was a one time shower installation for me for a specific shower design. I was happy with the installation and the lifetime guarantee from the manufacturer, but the workflow and recommended thinset were quite a change from my normal approach.

[@StarrTile]

I respect your knowledge and experience, but my personal opinion is all that foam and caulking will cause a failure at some point, just a matter of time and I definitely don't think it'll last as long as the old-fashioned method.. I believe the time comparison doesn't equate to a much more solid result, I'm still doing it ild way and doubt I'll ever use these products.

[@RustyDobbs]

Thanks for your comment, Bob. This was my first and I had kind of a perfect set up to cause me to consider it. The size of the shower and a 48" lateral drain plus a second floor location all pointed towards this one being where I would jump into the 'deep end'! I'm putting a lot of faith in that shower floor and drain assembly holding up over time. Plus the customer is a son in a family that I have known for 25 years, so I hope this works out! The room right below is the main dining room, so if there are any issues they will make themselves known. I have wanted to try one of these shower floors as much as anything to understand how it works and why there is such a level of confidence in them in some circles of tile setters. I tried to implement all the instructions I picked up in training from the reps and followed the manufacturers instructions completely. Then I looked at it again from my own perspective and tried to address any things I saw that might be problems as I went about the installation. So, I feel pretty confident about it when it's all said and done. Would I do it again? Probably not unless I run into a similar set of circumstances where it might make sense. I would use Hardibacker on the walls which is okay to do in conjunction with the Laticrete shower bases. I think the key to the whole installation is the thinset that they suggest you use in the instructions for the floor. My price was $36 for 50 pound bag. I've never used anything like it and it was a huge pain to work with. You had about two hours working time with it in your bucket and if you want to use your bucket again, you best not wait two hours to scrape down the sides because you won't get it off. You have to wash off your trowels and blades almost as soon as you finish spreading an area or it will start setting up on the metal. You have to get it off the surface of the tile within just a few minutes or it will leave a residue that you have to scrub to get off. It trowels like syrup but dries incredibly hard and I think that's probably important in the whole system. A lot of wasted time keeping things clean plus an extra bucket of fresh water always in the way. My guess would be if you used standard modified thinset though, you might have a problem with it down the road. Those are just some of my impressions. All things being equal, like you have concluded, the old methods are as good as they ever were. Nothing life-changing to see here!

[@pauldhennessey]

Old method still has to be done right, though. I see some people mix their deck mud very wet, run nails through their liner, apply red guard incorrectly among other things that contribute to shrinking the lifespan of a shower pan.

[@kyleevans7214]

Dry pack