Bulk Loading Film with the Lloyds and Western Loaders

In today's video we get to bulk load some film. I cover:
1. What you need to start bulk loading
2. How the loaders and cassettes work
3. How to bulk load safely in both the Lloyds bulk loader and the Western bulk loader.
4. How to store your bulk film should you not be using it quickly
Enjoy the video!
John
www.pictorialplanet.com

[@dantebellino5111]

The best bulk loading video on KZbin. I have a bulk loader and use it for two reasons, 1. Save money 2. Use the zone system. Glad to hear others are doing it this way. Thanks for the clear explanation including the little tip on the canister to keep the small ear even with the felt light trap.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Thank you very much, Dante!

[@waterballoonlungs2638]

This is the best how to video on bulk loading hands down. So informative and detailed.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Thanks!

[@Mike-ot3yg]

I’ve started bulk-loading again, on a budget, by just using a changing-bag with new cassettes. I’ve used the Weston loader but have found that doing without a loader has been no more difficult then loading film for developing. I count wrist-turns of the spool to fifty for approximately twenty-five frames. I’m using a plastic-adapter to grip the spool on the cassette more easily.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Fascinating comment. I've never tried going solo. Food for thought.

[@martinjones1390]

I do my best to minimise the introduction of dust into the cassettes during bulk loading as follows: Before loading the bulk film into the loader blow it out with a puffer, (Giottos Rocket or similar), and then wipe the interior of the loader with a damp, lint free cloth. When dry give it another blow out with the puffer and then it's into the changing bag for loading the bulk film. Each cassette to be loaded also gets the puffer treatment and I also slide a folded post-it note with the gummy side outwards through the felt light trap on the cassette to pick up any dust or loose fibre from the light trap. In the interests of economy I'm also going to make up dummy leaders from scrap film or even old negative strips that I would normally discard. I've measured most of my 35mm cameras and I lose about 4 frames for the leader. I will tape the dummy leader onto the half inch bit of film ex the cassette being careful not to block the sprocket holes and when overlapping the leader to the film ensure that the sprocket holes in film and leader allign with each other. The extended leader can then be rewound into the cassette before the film is to be loaded and used. Gonna get those 3 frames back that are normally lost on the leader!

[@PictorialPlanet]

Blimey! You're a pro bulk loader!!

[@Rotogravure54]

Yes, best bulk loading video I have seen on KZbin.

[@PictorialPlanet]

I appreciate that! Thanks for all your kind comments!!

[@alanhuntley55]

To minimize the issue at the end of the roll, I always load an additional frame. I have the Bobinquick 135 which works a little different than yours. The frame counter is set for 5 frames before the zero mark which is supposed to take care of the "end of roll" issue and the exposed section when loading the camera. I've found that after some experience you can adjust this to what works for you. Bulk loading is great, though, because it also enables you to spool on only a few frames when testing something.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Good point about being able to test something with only a few frames. Thanks Alan.

[@BlackLabAdventures]

Tip: With regards to the Weston bulk loader (Because it uses more film than the Lloyd's loader.), tape a short section of exposed film to the end of the leader coming out of the bulk loader. With the correct length of exposed film, taped on to the end of the unexposed film, you waste less of your bulk film. (I own a couple dozen metal cassettes. And, out of the three bulk loaders I own, I gave one to a local high school student that I had been mentoring in B&W film photography. Pass it on and pay it forward!).

[@TristanColgate]

Could you tape a full old leader on maybe, that would save wasting the frames used to pull across to the spool when loading? Could save a couple of frames per roll, but that might add up to a whole extra roll?

[@SilntObsvr]

I've seen many old hands claiming that they never use a bulk loader -- just go into the dark, pull out "about that much" film off the bulk roll, and wind it into the cassette. Years ago, I rolled ten rolls or so while opening the loader lid (Weston/Watson type loader, which expose about one more frame during cassette attachment than a Lloyd) *only in the dark* to defeat the fogged tail. Taping film to the spool and threading it into the cassette light trap, making sure the spool was right way around, all in darkness. Worked fine, but probably not worth the effort just to save that "Oh, my last two shots were on the exposed tail" feeling unless you're on a once-in-a-lifetime photo trip or similar -- and for that I'm somewhat inclined to use commercially spooled film because of all the other things that can go wrong in bulk loading. BTW, this may be more than I really need, but I have seven Watson type bulk loaders (one missing the crank, so it's currently empty) and recently got a Lloyd. They're loaded with Fomapan 400, Fomapan 100, Kentmere 100, ORWO DN21 (ISO 12 duplicating film), and Kodak 5222 (Double-X). And that's the *other* cool thing about bulk loading -- you can buy "camera rolls" of cine stock, reroll the 400 foot roll to a 100 foot roll to fit the bulk loader (or sometimes find "short ends" that don't need this), and use film that's too expensive after paying someone else to do this, or that's hard to find in cassettes (like the DN21). I've wished for many years that there was a sensible way to do this with larger film, but 70 mm bulk rolls and film backs (and bulk loaders!) are hard to come by, and it doesn't really work well in 120 (dealing with the backing paper pretty much precludes a device like these that lets you do most of the work in room light). I've also wished for a Lloyd or Watson type loader that takes a 400 foot camera roll, but those are rarer than hen's teeth, it seems. Historical note: bulk loading predates the cassettes we're used to. The first 35 mm still cameras existed more than ten years before the first Leica, and many of them used long rolls (fifty feet, in at least one case). The Leica-Kodak 135 cassette that works in (almost) all 35 mm still cameras today came several years after the proto-Leica (Leica and Contax had incompatible cassettes at first).

[@PictorialPlanet]

You have seven bulk loaders! I have bulk film envy :) Fascinating info about the pre-cassette days too! I learn something everyday, SO.

[@jbaxter007]

I agree, i`m a stickler for keeping my darkroom spotless, negs spotless, as you say, commercially rolled film is a safer bet,.Cost more, but i would hate to ruin a full roll of bulked film, also not that much cheaper to warrant all the faff.

[@SilntObsvr]

@@jbaxter007 If you have a supply of good cassettes, you can still save significant money by bulk loading, especially what premium films. Look what a roll of 35 mm Ektachrome 100 costs, then compare with a 400 foot roll of the very same film rolled for cine camera. Sure, you have to break that roll down into 100 foot lengths and roll onto a core to fit in your bulk loader, but the end result is cassettes that cost just over half what the ones rolled by Kodak do. You do save a little less on films like Fomapan, but I can still load 36 exposures of .EDU Ultra (rebranded Fomapan) for about $3.25 a roll, compared to close to $6 for the same in 36 exposure cassettes. I save more than that on Double-X (5222), when I can find it in a 100 foot short end. I've never (in about twenty years of bulk loading, and several years using film bulk loaded by photo classes etc. back in the 1970s and 1980s) had problems with scratching, nor seen a significant increase in dust spots compared to commercial film. What wasn't worth the effort to me was loading in the dark to avoid that exposed tail, not the whole exercise of loading film into the cassette. And if I thought I'd be using the film for critical action or street shooting, I'd still do the dark loading, because the one frame I lose at the end might be *that image.*

[@blackwingvisuals5017]

I went to my local lab and got a bag of 200 used cassettes and just spool them using tape put film in the appropriate labeled cassette. It works fine so long as there's enough of a tongue left on sticking out to join to.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Nice idea! Thanks for an excellent comment!

[@randallstewart175]

The video is very good at demonstrating many little issues and solutions of bulk loading. Although they tend to be the cheapest units, the Lloyds loader is, I believe, the only one which uses a permanent felt trap, which presents future issues of film being scratched during loading when dragged through the trap. Others use a rotating trap which releases the film during loading to avoid such possibility. If you can find them, in the US the Aldens loaders were far better made and easier to use than anything else. IMO the best quality loader made new today is the AP, also sold under other names, but at around $100 US, it's pricey. Not mentioned here or in other videos re bulk loading is the biggest headache. That is getting the 100 foot roll into the loader and the film leader threaded through the trap, which is a very tight fit and must be done in the dark. Ironically, the design of the Lloyds unit avoids this problem, but the Watson is exasperating.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Thanks Randall. I've never used the Aldens or AP loaders. Good to know.

[@joiscara7191]

A few years ago my uncle convinced me to bulk load using a Watson. At first I was skeptical, but when he told me to calculate how much a 100’ roll of Ilford Delta 400 versus buying the rolls themselves, it caught me off guard. I’ve been bulk loading ever since.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Thanks, great comment!

[@naturelvr123]

Great presentation. Do you remember when those plastic film cannisters were metal? Enjoyed this segment. :) ps. you're right, it is money saving.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Hi Paul! Yes, the metal reusable cassettes. The ones I remember had a door that opened, while in the camera, to let the film out. You closed the door after rewinding. Are they your recollection too?

[@SilntObsvr]

I have some of the Kodak style metal cassette, as well as the plastic ones, and some Soviet cassettes with both ends that slip off easily. The last do 't work in all cameras; some Leicas or Contax, IIRC, are too tight for them.

[@SilntObsvr]

@@PictorialPlanet Those are the ones that work in only Leica, or only Contax but not both. The camera has keying to open the door when closed.

[@azadpeymaparham]

I have used this method to load my rolls (just finished my first 30m film). I can see there is a huge advantage in bulk loading for when you want to use your 35mm in the zone system, or when you need to use different development techniques (time, dilution or chemical) to contract the lighting situation (for example a scene with huge dynamic range) or when you need less frames than 24. However, on the flip side of the coin, you'll lose a few frames every time that you load a roll (roughly about 4~6 frames depending on how frugal and disciplined you are with loading process) which makes it less economical in the long run also the same amount of developer is used to develop the roll (12 frame or 24 frames or 36 frames) so in a way, you save some money in one way but lose money in another way - if that makes sense? In my experience, I managed to get 671 usable frames from a 30m bulk roll which is equivalent to 18.5 rolls of 36 exposure rolls. I could do better and lose less frames but that was due to my lack of experience with the whole bulk loading process and you hadn't released this great video at the time :) But still bulk loading allowed me to save about 100 AUD ~ 57 GBP which is great which is about 6AUD cheaper per roll of 36. I don't know. I might be doing something wrong or missing a point but would love to hear your feedback? Also, when using the Zone system, how many frames (roughly) do you load in a roll? Is there any way to save cost on chemicals but still produce the highest quality negative that a stock (let's assume Ilford HP5+ or Kodak Tri-X 400) can potentially produce? (Assuming all other parameters in producing a high quality negative are spot on and the only variable's the developer chemical (chemistry, dilution etc) with the goal being to reduce the cost of development.)

[@PictorialPlanet]

Hi P A. The ultimate saving is when running off 36 exposures (ish) so each time I roll a short film I do lose some advantage in cost. But honestly, what I might lose in cost saving I gain in quality if negatives as I can process them for their correct N(+-) time. For zone work I roll about 10+ winds which gives me around 6-8 good negatives allowing bracketing if required or different views of my subject. For chemistry I use the full amounts as if for a full length film.

[@azadpeymaparham]

@@PictorialPlanet Thank you so much for your explanation. Great point re the quality of the negatives. I didn't think of that but the ability to produce good quality negatives for their correct N(+-) time is way more important than the cost saving advantage. Thanks John for the great content that you produce and make available for us all. One of my favourite channels on KZbin is Pictoral Planet :)

[@gavinjenkins899]

If you have < 18 frames, you can just load 2 rolls into one patterson reel and not waste any time or chemicals developing. just tape one to the next as you go

[@danhill2045]

I have an Olympus XA which I love, but there's a catch: the little tab on the bulk cassettes absolutely prevents the camera back from closing and locking. Solution - shave it off with a sharp knife. I have had no problems with loose end caps or film advance. I'm also one those crusty old-timers who does all this by hand in the dark without a loader. So far, no problems with that either.

[@PictorialPlanet]

I had problems with the bulk cassettes not working in a camera I had many years ago. Can't remember the camera. I never thought to shave off the tabs, brilliant! As for loading in the dark, mmmmm, it's just so easy with the leader :)

[@dbw]

Enjoyed the video John. I have been bulk loading for some time and have to say its far easier than having to be locked in to say 24 or 36 exposures. I do you 35mm in the Zone system sometimes but would interested to read how you use it with 35mm when bulk loading.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Thanks Ian. I agree that it's better to roll your own lengths so there's not the pressure to have 24 or 36 exposures to shoot or the waste of cutting the few frames out of the camera to process them. For the zone system I can use a very short roll as though it's sheet film i.e. shoot the 5 or so frames on my short rolls at N+ or N- and develop them accordingly. It's very straight forward when you know all the shots are N+2 (for instance) to give the right development.

[@andyvan5692]

with the western style one tip, KEEP the LEVER OUT, this does NOT just push the lid open, it INTERLOCKS the main light trap shut, aka so any scuffing of the unit on a table doesn't accidentally operate the lid (which can happen whilst fiddling with a slippery film leader, a piece of tape {how enevitable for it to fall inside the chamber?}, or with both hands holding the cartridge and closing the lid)- one thing the 250 & 750 bulk backs from Cannon and Nikon got right, they bulk loaded into two cans, and this assembly was loaded into the backs, like a belt fed machine gun, you lost the leader, but, simmilar to loading movie cameras, all the flaf is kept at the camera end, which has more room to see, and move about, so less un-expected or unseen errors in loading.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Nice tip

[@dennisoconnor4949]

Hello John. Great video and clear explanation. If I just roll 10 frames into a reel and then shoot and process the frames. Will using the same volume of developer as would be need to cover the film in the 35mm tank have any adverse effect on the finished negatives? I mean will there be too much developer for the short length of film?

[@PictorialPlanet]

You're good to use your regular amount of developer. To much developer is not a problem at all, too little isn't good ;)

[@MD-en3zm]

I miss the old cassettes that were made of metal. The new plastic ones open so easily and the felt falls apart and leaves particles on the film. I’ve been trying to track down old ones on ebay. I had stopped film for a long time and am now going back to it. It’s weird how hard everything is to find now.

[@PictorialPlanet]

I liked them too MD. I notice the price of refillable cassettes is going up.

[@MD-en3zm]

@@PictorialPlanet I managed to track down some old Ilford cassettes on ebay, so using those instead of the plastic ones. New isn’t always better!

[@gavinjenkins899]

Just re-use old commercial cassettes from whenever you shoot anything not bulk. Cut off the film with 1" to spare sticking out to tape new film onto.

[@drewh79]

Perfect timing I was looking to get into this! thanks so much. How many roles of film would you get from one bulk roll? eg: 36 shots on each roll

[@PictorialPlanet]

About 18 rolls of 36 frames for the 100ft (30.5m).

[@DominicRulikowski]

How does one deal with the problem of no DX coding on the cassette? Also more modern cameras made after 1990 have a little window to see what type of film you have in the camera, The cassettes you use in this demonstration are all black, which means they are invisible in this window. I accidentally opened the film door when I had film loaded in a Canon EOS 50. There must be some labels available which can solve both of these problems. If so, where do you get them from?

[@PictorialPlanet]

I've heard of labels that add the DX code to the cassette but never seen them. I'm sorry you opened your camera accidentally. On my Nikon F100 I can tell there's film in because the lcd shows the frame number if a film is loaded.

[@gavinjenkins899]

You can buy DX stickers. And you can just put any label sticker like for spices or whatever on the can and write what it is with a pen if you have a window.

[@thevalleyofdisappointment]

've been working from 1L of multigrade developer and reusing this until it takes over two minutes to develop my prints (4x the time for the shadows to appear as a gauge) Do you think its worth adding in neat developer as a replenisher after each session then topping up with the used and discarding the difference in a similar way to your d-23 strategy? 2 minute developing for prints seems like an absolute age to wait and throwing out slow developer just seems like a waste...

[@PictorialPlanet]

In my experience Multigrade developer is pretty good with speed of development. The midtones should be appearing after around 20-25 seconds. Witht factorial development I use the 5x rule of thumb so I would develop the print for 100 to 125 seconds depending when those mid-tones appeared. So your two minutes is not overly long at all. Note, it's not the appearance of the shadows you are watching for but the mid-tones. Secondly, I wouldn't add old brown to multigrade, it's not a metol developer and wouldn't react like one to bromide. Better to make new.

[@thevalleyofdisappointment]

@@PictorialPlanet thanks for the comprehensive reply and yes 2 minutes isn’t long but just really seems like it stood there in the dark rocking a tray! I bought my dev in a 5L bottle so it’s like next to nothing in cost. It’s not like I have anything else to do while the strip is developing so guess I just need to be more patient… Also if I am waiting for 4 times the shadows (80-90 seconds) perhaps I need to be leaving in the tray for longer anyway. Is overdevelopment of a print less problematic than with film? RC paper for clarification.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Overdevelopment isn't a problem with prints like film. They do increase in contrast a little and eventually you'll get chemical fogging but 30 second here or there isn't going to do much damage.

[@thevalleyofdisappointment]

@@PictorialPlanet Thanks again for the info. Its good to know I don't need to be exact with timing. No, Where did I put that motorised tray rocker...

[@PictorialPlanet]

😂

[@gavinjenkins899]

There's a much cheaper and easier way to try out or just always bulk load: Grab a random camera, go into a dark room or dark bag, stick a film cassette in it, tape the spool to the bit sticking out from previous developing, and "rewind" it full of film. Every camera is a bulk film loader. Not a DAYLIGHT one, granted, but that's pretty unnecessary.

[@PictorialPlanet]

Sorry but where is the fresh film coming from? If it's from purchased bulk film then I'd worry it would all fall apart as it's hard to keep together at best if times. I guess this would work in an emergency but using a bulk film loader is much safer and easier, worth the small cost and lasts a lifetime.

[@gavinjenkins899]

@@PictorialPlanet yes just held pinched between my fingers as spindles