Quieting a rear hub/messing with the rear pawls test

Let me first state that I am not a bicycle mechanic and was inspired to do this based on a Felix wong's article about quieting a loud freehub. He posted his before and after results on youtube and the results were quite dramatic. Link to the article below.
felixwong.com/2...
Why I wanted to do this modification was simply because I noticed that the rear wheel hub seemed to not spin as freely as my previous shimano ultegra 6500 hub which is incredibly quiet in use.

[@jp3d2k]

If your pawls are disengaged and making lots of noise you need to start pedaling again! After all there is no pawl resistance when you a pedalling. The only time this would be a benefit is when you are coasting downhill, but downhill speed is limited by wind resistance: the pawl resistance is completely negligible in comparison. Also your hub will probably fail much sooner, and then you won't be going very fast at all! ;)

[@williammarcum8784]

Those pawls are pretty universal,looks like you have space for 3 more pawls,I would add more pawls and a good coating of ceramic grease on the internals and that would turn that hub into a beast!! the grease would quiet it significantly and you would have a 6 pawl hub with 48 points of engagement at least..don't remove pawls add more!!

[@h82crash]

This freehub's vacant pawl slots are offset to effect more points of engagement. However, those slots have reduced material between the other slots and are weak. High torque causes the hub to break. It seems the MFR "fixed" the problem by removing the pawls from the weaker slots for a lower failure rate.

[@MrEric5452]

The louder the better, I no need to ring my bell.

[@v8powerr771]

yeah people think there's a tractor coming their way

[@jsmithepa]

First off, not all hubs is as easy to remove as shown in this video, but I do have a noisy Reynolds hub, and upon disassembly I noted my spring tension is already fairly weak so I can't see how a different spring would help, so I just removed 1 paw out or 3, clean out the old grease, which seems kinda thin to me and applied liberal helping of auto brake lithium grease, which is thicker than the stock's. Immediately the noise is down. Lets see if it holds up over time. Thought I wouldn't mind the noise but I do. Hate noise.

[@stoneheartjp13]

Its really just fine removing 1 of those 3 teeths as long as you put the remaining two at the same distance from each other. There are six slots meaning you just remove one teeth and adjust one of them to be level. I disassembled my old shimano hub and it only has two of those. I dint know there where hubs that has 3. Now that explains why som bikes have really loud freewheel sounds.

[@BikeGuyFPV]

Hmm, looks like a expensive way to break and ruin a hub. There is a reason why there are three pawls. Or move the second pawl so it's adjacent from the other one at 3 and 9 o'clock positions. Honestly for how I ride I would add the other three pawls to have six for better power transfer.

[@ThatMontmorency]

Er... The purpose of that ring is to keep the pawls sticking _out_ under some specific amount of tension, not to keep them tucked in. Yes, the spring also doubles as a retainer that prevents the pawls from falling out, but this is its secondary purpose. The primary purpose of the ring, again, is to force the pawl ends _out_. Meanwhile, the author of the video uses a toothpick to illustrate the opposite effect of the ring. This is misleading to an unprepared watcher.

[@c2thew]

awesome thanks for posting your findings. I did the same thing and have found the noise to be much quieter as a result.

[@cadogans]

I tried going to 2x pawls - not much better noise wise. So I decided to remove the c clip spring which was very easy. I observed the gap in the c clip to be about 1.25mm plus or minus .25mm. I sat very patiently for 5 minutes to frequent myself with the spring like properties of the c clip. Once I was comfortable with this I opened the c clip very gently - applied several iteration of this until I reach a gap of about 3.5-4mm - refitted the clip with only two pawls and the noise 80% better :)

[@eschelar]

removing a pawl from a 3 pawl design is a phenomenally bad idea. A triangle is an inherently balanced shape. Take one of those points away and putting force into it will create an unbalanced shape for putting force into the wheel by pedaling. Remember, pawls create drag ONLY when coasting, not when pedaling. But when you're pedaling, you're now putting all that force against the side of the bearing, instead of simply trying to rotate the wheel. This will reduce the lifespan of your bearings MASSIVELY. Not a factor of 1/3 or 50%. With all three pawls, the pawls keep the drive and wheel centered and your force is only pushing the wheel forward. With two pawls, 1/3 of your force is on the bearing that wasn't on the bearing at all before. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[@nomore25]

Shimano non series have 2 pawl only that looks like 1 pawl missing from 3 pawl design

[@eschelar]

@@nomore25 Nice necro... but just because Shimano does it, doesn't mean it's a good idea. The physics principle that I described is true and valid. Adding a pawl is sometimes doable, but can cause problems. Taking one away is always a bad idea.

[@nomore25]

@@eschelar my Shimano 2 pawl hub still in good condition, 8 years old and older than your comment.

[@eschelar]

@@nomore25 And what does that prove? I described a principle of engineering. 2 points on a line, 3 points on a plane. If you have 3 points centered to the axle, it will always center the axle. Removing one of these points will de-center the axle and increase the load on the remaining pawls by 50%. It probably won't damage the pawls unless you're doing a lot of crazy dropping, which is rare for road bikes.... However, it will de-center your axle and increase wear on bearings and the axle itself if it's not properly supported. Again, if you're just casually riding on the road, it won't have nearly as much effect, but if you ride hard at all, this will significantly reduce the lifespan of your bearings. I'm an MTB guy myself, so when I said "massively" I was referring to an MTB, although admittedly, I could have been more clear about that in the original comment. And if you ride hard on a road bike, it will also increase wear. I've seen wear on aluminum axles from this that would never normally occur.

[@nomore25]

@@eschelarit proves that still robust than your explanation.

[@NUM4WD]

The pawls are the important things for transfer force from hub to rotate the wheel . If you always ride down the hill by free your legs , this concepts is OK. But nobody always rides by free legs all time , so this is misconcept. When you're pedalling , rolling resistance is not affected by removing a pawl but stability of hub mechanism is affected . Conclusion , you don't really understand hub mechanism.

[@mikeymcdoogle7034]

would be nice if someone would just invent a freewheel hub that you can fully disengage the pawls manually like a cruise control and have it automatically re engage when you pedal forward

[@arvenzllanto5545]

Mikey Mcdoogle 4yrs later shimano xtr hub came

[@RichardBrownPhotography]

someone has made magnetic pawls that do just this

[@Bandilerosoundboy]

I have the same issue with my new Vision trimax 30. When I am going downhill and let it freewheel You actually feel the bike slow down. I don't have this problem with my Duraace C50's nor my Marchiso Zefiro. And I actually prefer softer freewheel clicking anyhow. I want to make a note that the Vision Trimax is a brand new wheel as opposed to the others. So I assume it will quiet down and decrease it's drag after a few thousand kilometers. I really wish there was an immediate fix for it. I appreciate you bringing this issue to the table because the efficiency of the bike is jeopardized to noticeable extents from springs that are too stiff.

[@joohop]

good man i didnt know all i needed was 2 hex keys thanks bro :)

[@nottingham82]

have you thought of moving the two remaining pawls directly across from each other instead of leaving 1/3 of the hub all pawlless. It might alleviate your uneven distribution of power concerns

[@almonpoole]

That was Tyler Hamilton who you were describing who had the bad Giro crash. I'm a very fast and aggressive rider and could not see doing this but to each his or her own.

[@c2thew]

yeah, i made another video about that as I thought that moving the two pawls directly opposite would be better, but it doesn't work. Running on 2 pawls so far has been fine and i'm comfortable with the pawl engagement.

[@IanPitts]

I recently trashed a hub inside of 2 months because I'm 230lbs and put a ton of torque through my drivetrain. Removing one of the 3 pawls would have made it die even faster. I'm using DT Swiss hubs on my new wheelset which should be multiple orders of magnitude stronger.

[@lightningskunk9590]

Have you considered cryogenic treatment from like 300below? might be pricey but seems like the hubs would be a good candidate for it.

[@IanPitts]

I haven't considered that, actually. The new hub (DT Swiss 350) I have now seems pretty bulletproof: www.dtswiss.com/DTSwiss/Images/splineone/hotspots_ratchet_system.jpg

[@c2thew]

i don't know but you are welcome to try.

[@popoybakal]

I think it wouldn't be fair if you compare a road bike hub to a mountain bike rear hub. Primarily the loud noise is due to the reason why it is suggested to be placed on a mountain bike, since you pedal more on it than on a road bike. (uphill = lower gear = more cadence vs Flat = more on higher gear = less cadence). The pawls and their springs are mainly made to withstand high powered pedaling compared to the way the RB hubs are made. just my 2 cents. As of the time of your video, It may have the same resistance but still we cant be too sure how it will play inthe long run. IMO I maybe wrong but that is how I see what the MTB pawls are made for

[@Nootaxx1]

I personally enjoy the sound no matter how much friction is caused by the spring or pawls.

[@willybilly99]

in life one things its hard to decide is to make hub sound louder or make hub go more freely, both has its own cool things bad things

[@asicsrunner11]

Btw, the higher viscosity the grease, the better since the friction from spinning will melt the grease. Tri-flow will likely run and might leak out of the hub.

[@cchongk]

I counted 19 seconds on the 1st spin, 24 seconds on the 2nd spin. 5 seconds seems significant until you consider the spin up is uncontrolled, and that the 2nd test had too many variables without the preload of the locknut in place. I do not believe this proves anything, and for me, isn't worth voiding warranty.

[@TheRokko66]

The seal on the drive side is not mounted correctly, grease is missing and some pawls :) Bitex normally 6 pawls and powerway only 3, which is much louder

[@asicsrunner11]

I just put the bearing grease on the inside track where the pawls spins around. In fact, I just finish doing it myself and the noise level of my Boyd Wheels has drastically decreased.

[@johnsaxontube]

The spring design seems wrong to me. How is it applying equal and correct force to each pawl? My Mavic hubs have tiny springs underneath each pawl so at least the force is equal. I'd be worried about bending that spring at all since it would be unpredictable as to how much spring tension would then be on each pawl. I did notice that greasing the pawls made my hub much quieter. I thought that you were supposed to use a relatively thin oil or grease since you don't want the grease to interfere with the pawl easily engaging the gear surface.

[@c2thew]

i'm pretty sure mavic hubs have one pawl in the hub. The pawl is what engages the freewheel to pedal so having no pawl in the hub shouldn't work (then again, i haven't tried.) i think the design of the mavic is different then other hubs which requires the pawl to engage. Interesting find though

[@c2thew]

i like to have better coasting efficiency so that i can reach down, grab a drink, and not worry about losing too much speed while freehubbing. Too much energy is lost with a high tensioned spring inside the freehub. Again, these are small personal preferences.

[@stoneheartjp13]

And also loosening the c clip/lock will be quite a bad idea since beside that clip nothing else is holding the prongs to the have. If you accidentally loosen it the wrong way you may break the prong loose while youre riding and i guess you know what comes next to that.

[@c2thew]

To let you all know.... I did put back the pawl back into the freehub however I did reduce the spring tension of the metal C clip which seems to have reduced the sound and seems to roll better for me. Again. YMMV. For me it was worth reducing the spring tension as I noticed a difference.while coasting. I would not touch the pawls, but I would definitely adjust the spring tension if I buy another set of carbon clinchers.

[@ibramguirguis]

Hello mate I have got now the same hubs r36. some ppl say the powerway hub is the copy of dt Swiss is that correct ? i want it louder is it possible to add 3 more pawls ? and what is the dimension of the bearings if I wanna replace a ceramic bearings? Thank you in advance I hope you can help me .

[@R3FL3X84]

when you take a cassette off, i want to take the part off where the cassette slides onto... i think the part has some crap and dirt under neath it because when you are free wheeling you can here the clicking of the pawl, but you can also hear what sounds like grit is being pushed around too ?

[@Ucceah]

not having the pawls in opposing slots triggered my engineering odc hard! bending the spring a tad looser, and a good helping of the thickest and stickest high-temp grease you can find under the pawls, will work wonders. (ask in a car ot motorbike repair shop or buy a pound that will last you a lifetime for like threeefiddy. actually i have one with me, in case you are interrested. ;D

[@lechorlov8713]

Actually it nothing new DT Swiss has 2 and 3 pawl system, but... If you have more pawls it prevents from wearing out inner ring driver, which happens after few thousands of miles.

[@raulfernandezperez73]

why those comes with 6 slots for pawls ? and only has 3 from factory

[@rp24hours]

Guys, what do you think you are really gaining by reducing the pawl resistance? You cannot determine the amount of energy lost by spinning the wheel with no load on it. The energy dissipated by the pawls is infinitesimal. Friction from seals, bearing preload, bearing design, bearing quality and bearing lube contribute more to friction losses than the pawls to freewheeling ability.

[@soundbud]

I didn't realise that the pawls were important! I was searching for why do we need them? I used a mavic wheel for a years with no pawls in, so no ratcheting noise, totally quite free wheel and no resistance. I still don't know the reason for having pawls? Is it only to tell that the free hub is working properly?

[@c2thew]

Question: how do you inject bearing grease into the pawls? Do you put it on the tip of the pawl where the tip ratches against the teeth or also underneath the pawl where the "U" area is? I'm about to grease the pawls with some tri-flow teflon spray. thanks.

[@michaelbacon7149]

I can't get the hex keys to turn at all when in those bolts, any advice? I am turning the correct way, and the cassette is removed. I am stuck

[@Ranger34163]

I'm seriously wondering if the tension spring is less on the 8-9-10 speed hubs because-as many have noticed- the drag is far more noticible on my aksium 11 spd than it was on my ritcheyDsPro 10 speed hub.(and the noise was 5x as loud with the aksium) I thought of tearing both hubs apart and changing out the spring from the ritchey to the aksium but the smarter minds over at the LBS said the hubs internals were different enough to scrub doing that.

[@currishev]

fewer & asymmetrical pawls as well as weakening spring (so the pawls don't snap back fast enough for engagement in power bursts) worsen dangerously stress on freewheel. It's not hard to set an experiment to measure ratchet influence on resistance to spinning. I would trust designers competence.

[@nshire]

why not remove all the pawls?

[@long19000]

then you can "ride" a bike on FOOT! LOL

[@mutantbaby1672]

LOL

[@v8powerr771]

That's why I hate new bikes loud af and I don't like those new shifters can't never stop rubbing of chain against front deraileur with this pos give me tube shifters any day

[@waynegriffiths5143]

If your freehub is too loud, you NEED to pedal more, simples!

[@denishuber7758]

my freehub is too quiet... is there a way to make it louder....its so quiet when the bike rolls you here more the tire resistence then the freehub

[@c2thew]

there are many many freehub designs on the market each slightly different. I would suggest looking up the wheel that you have on the forums first before you make any consideration of removing a pawl.

[@asicsrunner11]

You know you can quiet the hub noise by injecting bearing grease into the pawls. Might even reduce the friction.

[@LolEYEHasFun]

have you just tried greasing the bearings?

[@douwsteyn3036]

Roger That!!

[@ChiizL]

Why not just buy a shimano hub 😂

[@GizmoBitz]

So...you could remove all of them right? Then what happens?

[@lefthandyogi]

How can Mavic use just two pawls? because mavic free hubs suck...

[@ItzLnX]

does every wheel has a different freehub?

[@ITOzann]

You need to get smaller latex gloves bro! :) Great video!

[@matthiasschulze393]

looks like the freehub body was designed for 6 pawls...did you buy it with 6 pawls and take out three?

[@c2thew]

it does look like it was designed for 6 pawls however mine came with 3.

[@Ranger34163]

LBS guys said the pawl count went up with the price of the hub. (ala Dura Ace vs 105 vs Tiagra)

[@nabilbourouisa]

just leave it alone mate, it's there to serve a purpose if it's too loud just fill it with grease that will reduce the noise or simply walk lol

[@RynaxAlien]

Efficiency losses? Noise always means energy wasting.

[@jayjohnson007]

i hate my rear mtb hub its almost as loud as my ex bitching at me...

[@robertengland8769]

Coaster brake hubs don't have this problem.

[@franklinclinton7710]

then you wont have any way to go anywhere because nothing is gripping the inside of your hub you need at least one in order or move i would have 2 prongs on an even distribution that way its more quiet and it will role better but the less you have the more likely it will fail

[@MrSmoothasf]

Don't do this the resistance is minimal when your body weight is on the wheel, I could spin my wheel with ceramic bearings and it spins for 3x the amount of a normal wheel but when it comes to real world difference it hardly improves it.

[@juancarlosfloresfranco7093]

La mejor manera de quitarle el ruido es cambiar la masa por un shimano de tope u de una mejor que la que muestra el video

[@russellrice4593]

What's likely to happen if it fails ?

[@ArnoldsKnoks]

u are likely to crash

[@GodDamnAmazing]

what you wanna do is ride fixed gear! :D

[@rickyhuff]

Massive fail. This was painful to watch.

[@ArcaniusExpellam]

buy a fixie and forget about the freehubs :D

[@Kaidenthejew]

You need to trew that wheel

[@alexhopf4469]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ*snoreeee*

[@medallionsales]

Rock n Roll Super Web hub grease will fix your problem. Stop ruining your equipment and use common sense. You're giving dumb riders bad ideas on how to be faster...hint of the day- RIDE MORE !!!

[@pedallinraw]

Best upgrade for less rolling resistance is drop some weight and go vegan... ;)

[@1961Minicooper]

If you are worried about too much resistance on the free hub, just get off the bike and walk. You need to pedal when you are on a bike and not let it free wheel! Tard!