Why Gus G Left Ozzy Osbourne

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CAMELOT LIVE

CAMELOT LIVE

Күн бұрын

Gus talks about the leadup and what it was like to play with the legend, Ozzy freakin Osbourne! ft. ‪@firetv‬
Clipped from Camelcast Ep.59
• CAMELCAST 058 | GUS G(...
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#camelcast #camelot331 #ozzyosbourne

Пікірлер: 220
@tomasrusso2285
@tomasrusso2285 11 ай бұрын
Gus g is very humble and incredibly talented, really wished to hear one more album with Ozzy but his solo stuff is great.
@stephenbartush2237
@stephenbartush2237 9 ай бұрын
To this first comment.... True....and True.
@stephenbartush2237
@stephenbartush2237 9 ай бұрын
....And this is so true also!!!!
@britishboxer6875
@britishboxer6875 7 ай бұрын
cover band gig is all it was to allow zakk into a rehab, he was using it at the time
@slashmotovlog1112
@slashmotovlog1112 11 ай бұрын
One of the tightest, cleanest and fastest guitarist out there. GUS G!!
@mellozappa583
@mellozappa583 9 ай бұрын
I thought it was randy from the sound
@hinjurock70
@hinjurock70 9 ай бұрын
Lol Calm down, bro - he's not that good.
@adriantrusca1245
@adriantrusca1245 9 ай бұрын
Not even close.
@JambalayaJimmy
@JambalayaJimmy 8 ай бұрын
He's amazing.
@nikoskara1759
@nikoskara1759 6 ай бұрын
yeah he is good,but can you answer me one question?!!!(and i ask that as greek).....can you tell me which of his riffs or songs or melodies after years you are gonna remember??!!!!!!yeah,ofcourse he is good,techincal,fast.....but there are many many guitarists in this style.........check out Panos Arvanitis
@r_aguilar68
@r_aguilar68 10 ай бұрын
Great interview with a great guitarist. Very cool and humble guy.
@thewurm9177
@thewurm9177 9 ай бұрын
Class act all the way. Articulate and humble, and a terrific guitarist!
@DVTOM
@DVTOM 8 ай бұрын
As soon as he got the gig his cell rang and it was Jake saying DON't DO IT!!!! lol
@Sooflojoe
@Sooflojoe 9 ай бұрын
Great interview with a great guitarist. I had the honor to see Gus G play live for Ozzy, and his stage presence only added to the Ozzy experience.
@darkizofficial
@darkizofficial 7 ай бұрын
Damn time flies! I remember when i started to listen to Firewind and Gus G was my favorite guitar player, still is to this day. Bro went trought alot of changes and grew even more powerfull as guitar player for Firewind and others + solo albums. Dude never stops! Heck he even came to my little country and felt like Firewind played just for me, one of a life time experience. When he joined Ozzy, i remember i was so proud i was showing Gus G to everyone (did it even before Ozzy, but later he became more popular). Seriously, hands down, my favorite guitar player. He is him. I've met him and the band couple of times from the gigs and all i can say, these guys are top tier.
@markusaurelius777
@markusaurelius777 9 ай бұрын
Gus, You made the list because you are THAT GOOD of a guitar player. I can tell you don't think to highly of yourself, (No ego), but you're right up there with the very BEST of them. No BS.
@landajimmy
@landajimmy 9 ай бұрын
Thank you, man.
@markusaurelius777
@markusaurelius777 7 ай бұрын
@@landajimmy That was for Gus G., lol.
@Emanuelnx
@Emanuelnx Ай бұрын
@@markusaurelius777lmao
@henkestenke
@henkestenke 9 ай бұрын
Being a huge fan of everything Zakk Wylde, Gus is the fucking man! I was a skeptical at first, but when the album landed I was like, ok..this cat can play. And then when I saw them on the scream tour I was completely blown away. Tommy, Blasko, Adam and Gus was fireing on all cylinders and I think it brought out something in Ozzy that was pent up. Best show I’ve ever seen.
@papakefis4252
@papakefis4252 9 ай бұрын
Great, great , great guitar player. Humble and grounded. This is the status of a guy who is really good. Cheers Κώστα!!!!🤘
@andyynda8917
@andyynda8917 9 ай бұрын
Saw Gus G on Ozzfest in 2010 with Ozzy , It was A Great Show. Gus did A GREAT Job!!!!!!
@Angelo-fo8de
@Angelo-fo8de 8 ай бұрын
Gus G is a outstanding player for sure . He is up there at the top of the guitar players list.
@drjay73
@drjay73 9 ай бұрын
Gus is a phenomenal guitar player! Very cool and humble also which makes me like him even more!
@captainflamson
@captainflamson 10 ай бұрын
Scream is a kick ass album and I listen to it often, I would have loved to see Gus do one more album with Ozzy with more of G's input on the songwriting.
@doctorwankensteintv8171
@doctorwankensteintv8171 10 ай бұрын
agreed, he was robbed of writing a legit album. I know he won't say it, he's got a great way of looking at his success etc. But damn I would've loved to hear an album where he didn't just come in and rip some solos. Probably would've been a classic.
@docvader82
@docvader82 9 ай бұрын
I 100% agree with you guys. I couldn't believe people dumping on Scream. It was so much better than the previous two, and for my money with Gus it sounded the most like Classic Ozzy in a long time.
@RavenWolfDrum69
@RavenWolfDrum69 9 ай бұрын
My husband took me to see that tour . Awesome
@goodmorningsundaymorning4533
@goodmorningsundaymorning4533 9 ай бұрын
Scream is one of the finest albums ever written.
@kqh123
@kqh123 5 ай бұрын
​@@goodmorningsundaymorning4533the best metal album of a generation I reckon
@charliesmith4229
@charliesmith4229 9 ай бұрын
Gus will be just fine for the rest of his life. When you're kind, loving and appreciative= everything will work out. Gus seems like a smart guy and if he banked his playing money with Ozzy, he will live without much struggling.
@davidtomkins4242
@davidtomkins4242 9 ай бұрын
He was a hired gun and sharon osborne is famously ruthless. I doubt he made as much as you think
@1Deep43VA
@1Deep43VA 9 ай бұрын
I doubt he made anything but peanuts. This is Sharon Osbourne we’re talking about. Edit: wrote Vincent lol Even Vivian Campbell made shit for his first 3 albums with Dio.
@mgdarenz
@mgdarenz 9 ай бұрын
​@@1Deep43VAVince Campbell? 😂
@saturnskull1242
@saturnskull1242 9 ай бұрын
@@1Deep43VA you mean Vivian right?
@1Deep43VA
@1Deep43VA 9 ай бұрын
@@mgdarenz lmao had to have been autocorrect. Vivian
@MetalJesusRocks
@MetalJesusRocks 9 ай бұрын
I really love Gus G’s instrumental solo album Quantum Leap. I have the vinyl version and it still gets a tons of spins in the game room. 🤘
@CAMELOTLIVE
@CAMELOTLIVE 9 ай бұрын
Hey man! Nice to see you here! We hung out at SEGE 2022
@SilasoftheLamb
@SilasoftheLamb 9 ай бұрын
Great interview! I used to build his guitars at Jackson and honestly, that's how I heard about Gus! Amazing, nice guitarist! Cheers!
@bigsalupnorth
@bigsalupnorth 9 ай бұрын
Really impressed with the way you approached this interview. Serious skills my man. ⚡️
@TheMack
@TheMack 9 ай бұрын
Gus G is a monster guitar player! Saw him with "Ozzy with friends" in Sweden and also at Sweden Rock. Still remember "Bark at the moon", so tight! :)
@robertward6813
@robertward6813 8 ай бұрын
I remember seeing him playing with Ozzy. Great player
@aquadime3336
@aquadime3336 9 ай бұрын
Great interview
@thetruthchannel349
@thetruthchannel349 9 ай бұрын
yep. that is the hired gun syndrome. Up in the air even when you're on the ground.
@joelmcgee4405
@joelmcgee4405 8 ай бұрын
I saw Firewind in a small club. All members of the band were cool. After the show, Gus and everyone came out to the bar and hung with us. Great time!🤘
@sydneysheppard4979
@sydneysheppard4979 9 ай бұрын
Gus!!!! I still love panos arvinitis!!! You guys would make the best dual harmonys!!you guys both rock!! Peace🇺🇲🇬🇧
@briangardner758
@briangardner758 9 ай бұрын
Ozzy always went after the best & I love em all for diff reasons but from the old songs into the now Zakk is untouchable
@rogueone5457
@rogueone5457 9 ай бұрын
Scream was great, a nice break from Zakk, even though I love Zakk's playing with his signature vibrato/pinch harmonics. Ozzy always finds amazing guitar players!
@1m2s3t
@1m2s3t 9 ай бұрын
I met Gus what a great guy
@richspizzaparty
@richspizzaparty 7 ай бұрын
Gus reminds me of Jake E Lee and even Randy...immensely talented, incredibly humble and down to earth. All too good for Ozzy.
@poiboi808
@poiboi808 8 ай бұрын
Bought Firewind’s CD by chance (never heard of them before). Played it and was blown away by the musicianship of Gus and the other band mates. Vocals were on point! Gus G is an awesome guitarist!
@jessekauffman3336
@jessekauffman3336 9 ай бұрын
Great change from your normal content. Great interview.
@mrkentleong
@mrkentleong 5 ай бұрын
Let me hear you scream is my fav song
@dimimarkoulis6013
@dimimarkoulis6013 9 ай бұрын
A great guitarist and a great human being .... γεια σου Κώστα 🇬🇷
@paulburrows7908
@paulburrows7908 8 ай бұрын
I saw Gus live with Ozzy in 2010. Front row in front of Gus. He blew me away and did a killer job.
@esloy07
@esloy07 11 ай бұрын
I am glad Gus did not stayed for too long playing with Ozzy.
@rhythmicbeast
@rhythmicbeast 9 ай бұрын
Greek guitar goo pop f. Top dude & one of the best musos ever born 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🤘🤘🤘🤘
@canyonproductions7683
@canyonproductions7683 9 ай бұрын
Fun interview. He seems nice. We’ve both used the same producer for our solo stuff. Mat Dauzat.
@richcarroll7510
@richcarroll7510 4 күн бұрын
I was at that show when the eggs were thrown, It was at the PNC ARTS CENTER in N.J
@kylef5474
@kylef5474 9 ай бұрын
Forget Ozzy, I wanna know what it was like working with Elize on “what lies below”. U should do a whole album w/her.
@couchwarrior2449
@couchwarrior2449 9 ай бұрын
Whatever the reason it had something to do with Sharon. Guaranteed. She's a real ball buster.
@user-ty2xv6xw8j
@user-ty2xv6xw8j 9 ай бұрын
It always comes down to Sharon, ugh
@PlayerToBeNamedLater1973
@PlayerToBeNamedLater1973 9 ай бұрын
Compared to her father she's honest, faithful and generous
@couchwarrior2449
@couchwarrior2449 9 ай бұрын
@@PlayerToBeNamedLater1973 That's not saying much.
@alantinoalantonio
@alantinoalantonio 9 ай бұрын
The Yoko of hard rock.
@danzifer
@danzifer 9 ай бұрын
Way underrated when it comes to Ozzy's guitarists, I mean, you got Iommi, Randy, Jake and Zakk among others. Firewind is an awesome band, check them out
@guitarplayer1434
@guitarplayer1434 9 ай бұрын
you should be talking about why Ozzy has done nothing since he got rid of daisley and being to stupid to understand why . Count the songs written by Bob with randy, jake and Zakk, and then count the Ozzy's hits written without him. The math is really that simple
@JeffreyDevoe-pl5cq
@JeffreyDevoe-pl5cq 9 ай бұрын
Your a great interviewer for being so young, keep it up, rock on 🤘
@javiercojoba
@javiercojoba 9 ай бұрын
I also liked Gus more than Zack! Glad i saw him with Oz at MSG NYC! Halford opened the show! 👍
@Malentor
@Malentor 7 ай бұрын
Loved Gus' contributions to Nightrage!
@kk-om5zm
@kk-om5zm 17 күн бұрын
Γειά σου Κωστάρα...Τιμή μου που σε γνωρισα στην Θεσσαλονίκη αδερφέ..Απλά είσαι ο μεγαλύτερος...
@justinrash4426
@justinrash4426 9 ай бұрын
Loved this interview!
@joeylodes
@joeylodes 9 ай бұрын
Got to hang with Gus backstage years ago in Miami when he was playing a show with Yngwie and Steve Vai ( I got to play just before all these guys … no pressure ! lol) Anyway Gus was a really gracious guy and he totally killed it on stage that night. Fantastic player.
@tonyr669
@tonyr669 9 ай бұрын
One night a friend called me up and said I am going to watch Ozzy in my friends skybox, do you want to go? So of course I said hell yea! I was unfamiliar with the new guitarist, Gus G, but was soon so enveloped is his guitar playing and his sound that my brain ceased to tell my legs to hold me up! I slumped or slid down the wall of the skybox to the floor. People thought I was drunk or on something! I quickly scrambled back to feet, and wanted to know what amp, what guitar, how was he doing these fast melodic runs that seemed groundbreaking. Immediately, I had to have a Blackstar amp, though that would still not allow me to match this young gunslinger who filled the arena with magic! It was a night I will never forget, and was grateful that I was able to experience that performance.
@brianrust6139
@brianrust6139 11 ай бұрын
Gus G! He's the best Metal guitarist out there today!
@muriloninja
@muriloninja 11 ай бұрын
Simmer down kid, you're delusional. There is no "best"!
@NPC-30
@NPC-30 9 ай бұрын
🤣🤣🤣
@CaptainFrugalReviews
@CaptainFrugalReviews 9 ай бұрын
Great review! Gus G is underrated.
@thomasm.7414
@thomasm.7414 9 ай бұрын
The Band had a tight sound when he played in the Band. I liked his playing on the ozzy and friends tour
@GusKuratleSr
@GusKuratleSr 8 ай бұрын
Hi Gus my name is Gus also I can tell you have a lot of Randy Rhoads in you're playing. You're very talented and very impressive guitarist!
@anthonycosta2662
@anthonycosta2662 9 ай бұрын
Sounds like a good guy. Great player.
@heut4384
@heut4384 10 ай бұрын
Well, no one really wants to talk about it, but the truth is, Ozzy Osborne's too old; he has too much health issues. I know Ozzy can't really walk anymore. So, I'm glad we at least got to know Gus G. He's a damn good guitar player. I wished we could hear another album with Gus G and Ozzy.
@NickySpades
@NickySpades 5 ай бұрын
I think Patient number 9 proves that you are so wrong.
@mikemaceachern4590
@mikemaceachern4590 9 ай бұрын
Full respect to you buddy
@johngulotta7951
@johngulotta7951 9 ай бұрын
randy jake and zack are the best guitar players thats pretty cool .seen sabbath in 15 in philly
@shawnstarks1743
@shawnstarks1743 9 ай бұрын
Look Gus G is a excellent player. Tight and modern sounding in which is what the interviewer was trying to express. Zakk is meat and potatoes. The reality is what Sharon realized is, fair or unfair the Ozzy purest never really accepted Gus G. Gus G was always the “backup” plan in 2008 when the Ozzy camp was trying to reunite with Jake E Lee courtesy of Blasko’s advice and it would’ve happened if Jake hadn’t had asked Sharon for his credits from Bark at the Moon. Sharon said no. Enters Gus G. Rest is history.
@docvader82
@docvader82 9 ай бұрын
I thought his solos on Scream were some of the best Ozzy solos since at least Jake, if not Randy. No knock on Zakk, but Gus sounded like more traditional, old school Ozzy. I was really hoping he'd be allowed to write with Ozzy, which never happened.
@golasoff
@golasoff 3 ай бұрын
Gus g εισαι τεράστιος και σαν χαρακτήρας . Respect
@jasonjohnson4170
@jasonjohnson4170 8 ай бұрын
So let me get this straight... Sharon throws eggs at Iron maiden during a show and you then decide you want to be the guitar player in Ozzy's band. Savage
@perpetualmotion357
@perpetualmotion357 8 ай бұрын
Let me say that I absolutely loves Zakks playing on NRFTW and NMT. From 88-94 and even on Ozzmosis(though thats when I believe things started to go downhill a bit) Zakk was a force of nature and played with a fresh intensity that blew away a lot of us. The bellbottom Zakk before he turned into a viking biker is when he was at his peak imo. Later on he started to become a bit repetive and stale. His tone also started to suffer and became too sludgy. Its like the albums after Ozzmosis sounded more and more like BLS with Ozzy on vocals. I think Scream was the best Ozzy album in a long time and Gus G tore it up. I actually think it was his best album post 95.' I would take Gus's playing at that stage over Zakk. I get bringing Zakk back because of all the history and I do like his playing on his first two records with Ozz over Gus's playing. Gus definitely deserves praise and even being a guitarist for Ozzy Osbourne has its own percs to be had on a resume. Very few get that gig for as long as Gus G had it.
@Dingbotz
@Dingbotz 8 ай бұрын
88-92 Zakk was a genuinely good guitarist and boded well for the future. Then he turned into parodies of bikers, rednecks and vikings, losing all sense of melody, only interested in playing the same repeated speed pentatonic licks as fast as possible until.
@005ayokay
@005ayokay 9 ай бұрын
I want to know if Gus did in fact write notes on SCREAM. I heard Zakk had already wrote his parts but Gus re-recorded his parts on SCREAM. Can anyone confirm or is this another Urban Legend? Such a humbling video.
@bladempale1751
@bladempale1751 9 ай бұрын
Didn’t like scream but goddamn Gus is on fire on that record!
@JoeBaermann
@JoeBaermann 9 ай бұрын
Gus did fine with Ozzy, personally I prefer him with Firewind though.
@orlandorayo3567
@orlandorayo3567 8 ай бұрын
Actually went to that Ozzfest in San Bernardino with Iron Maiden and the eggs... Kelly was having fun
@jerrygabel1836
@jerrygabel1836 9 ай бұрын
No on can play the nuances of Randy’s playing as well as Gus.
@gregpickett8816
@gregpickett8816 8 ай бұрын
Same thing with Jake's. Gus can do literally everything.
@SwampEye1
@SwampEye1 9 ай бұрын
Smart guy - Great guitatr player
@christophertaylor5403
@christophertaylor5403 9 ай бұрын
You got it because you got skill .
@justinkasey1088
@justinkasey1088 8 ай бұрын
I was wondering what happen with ozzy ,Gus was there then he wasnt thanks for clearing that up, as far zak sabbath im a fan but it sure was nice seeing a new slinger!
@Afurthyclays
@Afurthyclays 4 күн бұрын
EVERYONE leaves Ozzy. All you get is recognition. No money, no credit, no royalties, no respect, but at least everyone will know who you are.
@AHCHUUU
@AHCHUUU 9 ай бұрын
Damn dude I never knew.Back in those days I was a trucker and not really paying attention or playing hell yeah cudos to you yup I'm a subscriber
@mattsweeny3957
@mattsweeny3957 9 ай бұрын
That was nice of Sharon ...Matt NYC
@williamweiss6128
@williamweiss6128 9 ай бұрын
Yep, love the Gus G
@JoshJones-rc7ru
@JoshJones-rc7ru 9 ай бұрын
I sang crazy train with Gus g
@JokersWild70
@JokersWild70 9 ай бұрын
My favorite Ozzy guitarists are....anyone but Zakk. I liked this guy because his tone was cleaner and brighter than Zakks, and he was more true to Randy's original parts
@ghostface_grilla1155
@ghostface_grilla1155 9 ай бұрын
I can't take the pinch harmonics Zakk does every 2 seconds. I agree💯
@humanactivated1017
@humanactivated1017 9 ай бұрын
You guys just don’t know the power of metal guitar and pinch harmonics .
@adamsherley-dale9503
@adamsherley-dale9503 9 ай бұрын
@@humanactivated1017🎯
@dropoutandretireearly1781
@dropoutandretireearly1781 8 ай бұрын
WHAT A GREAT STORY !!!!!
@larrycarrillo1766
@larrycarrillo1766 9 ай бұрын
His version of Mr. Crowley is my favorite rendition.
@narizgrande
@narizgrande 8 ай бұрын
He was my favorite Randy Replacement
@drywater4935
@drywater4935 9 ай бұрын
Gus, you're the man!
@Splawnamplificationandguitars
@Splawnamplificationandguitars 5 ай бұрын
I know the reason that the sound was cut off on Iron Maiden during that Ozzfest too. Dirty!!
@Splawnamplificationandguitars
@Splawnamplificationandguitars 5 ай бұрын
And I know who did it too!
@BX0207
@BX0207 7 ай бұрын
Ohhh this guys from Greece.. how cool... Greek Ozzy Guitarist...lololo f ed up.. too cool...
@Keith_X
@Keith_X 9 ай бұрын
Love Gus G.
@ScottCutrell
@ScottCutrell 7 ай бұрын
I was at his first Gig with Ozzy at Blizzcon and it was great! Not sure why there is so much Zakk hate… Sharon is directly responsible for the ire against Zakk and Maiden. When Ozzy was trying to get clean… oh wait over and over again, Maiden was touring… Sharon hates Bruce D because he doesn’t need her management “skills”. Oh and with his money he learned to fly commercial jets… Ozzy does what? Draws pictures and get loaded. Many of the best musicians have been impeded by talentless people like Sharon Osbourne.
@user-or4hs7xq9u
@user-or4hs7xq9u 9 ай бұрын
Never heard of Gus G
@britishboxer6875
@britishboxer6875 7 ай бұрын
Even Eddie Van Hallen was Jealous that Randy got the gig, according to Alex they played with Black Sabbath and Ed loved Ozzy
@budc6246
@budc6246 2 ай бұрын
I thought he got the gig because Ozzy was looking for someone that wasn't changing the Ozzy sound to Black Labels sound. I think that was from a Zakk interview. I could be talking out the side of my ass but thats what I remember listening to sometime ago.
@belakiss8861
@belakiss8861 6 ай бұрын
I love The album Scream...Gus G is an incredible guitar player. All his lead on Scream are different, not one is a copy of the last...When I hear Zack lots of his leads are copies and he tries too much to be Randy...Gus is super original..Love his style.
@NPC-30
@NPC-30 9 ай бұрын
The least known known guitarist out there. When he got the gig I kept thinking "who?", still do.
@rayzrrtredz3902
@rayzrrtredz3902 9 ай бұрын
Check his old band niterage, great band especially his work with tompa Lindberg
@makemoneyrelax
@makemoneyrelax 9 ай бұрын
i love that album Gus did with Ozzy, Scream.....amazing guitar on that album....
@matthewmatt5285
@matthewmatt5285 8 ай бұрын
I wish he would have asked Gus about the song writing process with Ozzy a little bit : (
@georgemarquardt4435
@georgemarquardt4435 8 ай бұрын
Y'all be rippin on Gus but nah he a sho nuf crazy shreddin dawggy
@Itsklops
@Itsklops 8 ай бұрын
I actually tried out for ozzy too ❤I remember this 😂
@peperman21
@peperman21 Ай бұрын
💛🖤
@slowemm
@slowemm 9 ай бұрын
I would love to hear an Ozzy all stars album with new songs and contributions from Bob Daisley, Tommy Aldridge, Brad Gillis, Jake, Zakk and Gus. But Sharon would sooner sell her children into slavery than allow this.
@CeeHimself
@CeeHimself 9 ай бұрын
I've Seen 'Em All And Ozzy Always Had Some Delicate Taste When It Comes To His Players! It's Not The Easiest Job To Keep Up With The Wylde Man But Gus Is Definitely One Hell Of A Precise Guitar Dude!
@PlayerToBeNamedLater1973
@PlayerToBeNamedLater1973 9 ай бұрын
Who taught you how to type?
@Tommyp65
@Tommyp65 7 ай бұрын
Ozzy and Sharon always treated their musicians like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed shit.
@gordonburchell4337
@gordonburchell4337 9 ай бұрын
Dude Gus was in Mystic prophecy,Firewind and Dream Evil!!! before ozzy all bands have harder guitar parts to play then anything in ozzy 😂Gus saying he was nothing before ozzy is super humble when he joined I thought cool nostalgic great on his resume but he is overqualified for this job each of his bands have a shit ton of albums that are amazing but ooohh now he can play crazy train everyday like I said fun opportunity
@jessejames9149
@jessejames9149 6 ай бұрын
You forgot Nightrage!
@lukerangdan8557
@lukerangdan8557 9 ай бұрын
I have a GusG poster in my room, Great player inspired me a lot.
@Wagoo
@Wagoo 9 ай бұрын
I thought Gus G was great playing for Ozzy. The only thing that disappointed me was that while Ozzy was busy with the Sabbath tour he didn't* just write an album of classic Ozzy songs and plop it on Ozzy's lap afterwards to add the vocal melodies, like Jake E Lee did with The Ultimate Sin while Ozzy was in rehab * - at least from what we know, anyway
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