Can a RAPIER or SWORD be TOO LIGHT to CUT?

I have seen it said that choppy rapiers, or swords in general, are heavier, while some swords, and specifically rapiers, can be too light to cut. Or in other words, we can decide whether a rapier can cut or not by its weight. Does that argument hold any...weight?
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#rapier #fencing #history

[@salmatosjr5285]

The old mass vs. speed argument. No matter the weapon this one never dies.

[@jeremystephen5764]

Are you saying a glock is better than a 1911??? Why I oughta…..

[@thechroniclesofthegnostic7107]

Then there's pesky things like "sectional density"... 😜

[@jrbailey3208]

It'll only die when the Laws of Physics either dies, or changes due to New Discovery (or, as some might hold, we finally become smart enough to acknowledge something which has always existed in reality, but we just simply didn't have the brain power to observe it and/or understand it.). I'm a proponent of an axiom amongst Stick and String Bowhunters, where the two aspects cross one another for maximum effectiveness: Maximum Desired Speed at Maximum Desire Mass, creating the Maximum Desired Transfer of Kinetic Energy. Cheers from the Oil Patch in Central WY, USA

[@fredbazoo]

It's the exact same argument for .45 ACP versus 9mm.....Is a heavier slower round better then a lighter faster one....😮

[@billpark8988]

I would never expect any rapier, regardless of weight, to cut like a falchion.

[@BlackCat-tc2tv]

Chopping and slicing are both technically “cuts” in the same way a mini cooper and a Lincoln town car are both “cars”…

[@dony2852]

This is probably a silly question but how practical would half swording with a rapier be in close quarters combat?

[@scholagladiatoria]

It is actually shown in some rapier treatises - it was one option when facing a spear for example.

[@dony2852]

​@@scholagladiatoriaThanks. I thought some people may have considered halfswording with a rapier but I couldn't remember ever hearing about it. It was especially hard to imagine it being used given how modern fencing goes.

[@josephdedrick9337]

​@dony2852I've personally used it on occasion in sparring if that provides a data point for you.

[@hjorturerlend]

People sometimes forget that some of the choppiest swords are often quite light weight. Many Langmessers and Dao come to mind. An extreme example are ancient Celtic swords, can go all the way down to 600g.

[@adrianjagmag]

One of the cuttiest swords I have handled was a Sosunpatta that was less than 700g but could easily than an arm off, maybe even behead someone with the right technique. It was shockingly weird. Not bad at thrusting either but the way it was T spined and reinforced both at the COP and tip was noteworthy.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

I was thinking of the sabers of the Eurasian steppe, and surrounding lands like the Caucasus. For example: some types of antique Georgian shashka can go as light as 400 grams. I think you can find even lighter, but I don't know if those would still be considered swords, or large knives.

[@zumbazumba1]

Becasue not many people can whack with 2kg sword for a 1 h.Battles take a lot of energy to be fought,especially in armor.

[@Snarlacc]

The balance also makes a ton of difference. While the type XIX is only 970g, it has also a very far out balance, and so do the military sabers, like 15-20cm while the Rapiers and arming swords normally are balanced closer to the hilt. Putting a heavy hilt on the XIX would likely lessen it's cutting ability but make it much more nimble and fast. Also looking at Han-Dynasty Jian for example, they are basically Rapier blades without a guard, therefore weighted much further out towards the blade and they cut phenomenally well for their weight.

[@dgmt1]

This. When people talk about heavier swords having more cutting ability they are often referring to the weight and balance of the blade. When the hilt is removed from the equation it becomes very clear that good cutters have relatively more of the way towards the tip than thrust oriented blades which tend to be very hilt dominant.

[@GreenMachine1975]

I enjoyed this video, Mr. Easton! Thanks so much for sharing with us! Cheers from Northern California! 🤠✌️

[@DaDudeb]

Damn, that arming sword is a thing of beauty.

[@bobrobinson1576]

You can get one very similar from L K Chen. I have one and it is superb in every respect.

[@DaDudeb]

@@bobrobinson1576 I have no use case for it (if there is one for a sword) and sadly can not justify spending several hundred euros on it.

[@robcampion9917]

Well a piece of paper can cut so weight doesn't mean much.

[@101Mant]

Cut effectively. Although I suppose a paper cut stings and could distract someone.

[@tommeakin1732]

When we say a sword, "cuts", I think it's a given that we mean "with some driving force" - at least enough to bite into flesh. Even the edges of a cube can technically "cut" if sharp - just not well at all lol.

[@robcampion9917]

@ I know, it was just a comment for the lols.

[@josephdedrick9337]

​@@tommeakin1732punches can cause "cuts" as well.

[@tommeakin1732]

This is totally unrelated, but I happened to be reading a little about a man called James Figg (born before 1700, died 1734) who is said to be one of "the fathers of western boxing". Amongst other things, he fought with, and taught with "short swords". From what I read, it sounds like he was even getting into sword blood-fights (even just to show who was the best fighter) in front of crowds (even at fairs I believe) without it even being "underground". He seems to have been a very well known and liked fight-school business owner. That kind of took me aback a little for the early 1700s. It might be a cool topic for you to look into him and tell us about how all of that worked, and also take the opportunity to show us what swords he'd have likely been using. I admit that the early 1700s is a bit of a dark spot for me when it comes to knowing what swords were being using in England that might be called "short swords". Would we be talking hangers? Straight broadswords and backswords morphing into what we'd end up call shearing swords/spadroons? I did see one drawing of him with what was clearly a baskethilt. I'm always interested to hear about later English baskethilts

[@thedannishinquisition4204]

Silver calls his 37inch+ backsword a "short sword" in comparison to a rapier that at the time could easily be 40-45 inches. figg probably refering to similar back/broadswords

[@GrandDungeonDad]

The second one you picked up is beautiful.

[@sinisterswordsman25]

In my experience all that matters is sharpness and blade geometry. If you have a thicker blade it will still cut if sharpened properly. And conversely if it has good blade geometry it will still cut well even with a relatively dull edge.

[@dustyboots2693]

As always, the answer is "it depends". What do we mean by "cutting" anyway? What do we need to cut through, and how? A wood chopping axe can clearly cut, a straight razor is a very good cutter too, how can we determine which one cuts better?

[@captainflint89]

a sharp stick can "cut" / lacerate if swung hard enough at bare skin. depends on the definition of a cut

[@paulwilson8672]

Are you going to create subcategories of Rapiers from sewing needs to broad swords? It is great that you show actual historical swords and show how they are still functional.

[@robo5013]

That's not a rapier... THIS, is a rapier!

[@metube713]

That second cutting rapier looks very much like the LK Chen Saxony, which cuts very well!

[@andreh3223]

First one to view. 17 seconds after you posted. Now that I got your attention: when will we get the Falx testing video?

[@philparkinson462]

I'm surprised people may consider weight indicates cutting ability. Beautiful antique examples btw. I think it all comes down to functionality and compromise as always. What are you intending to use it for? Campaign? Carry? Duel? A mix of all?

[@JCOwens-zq6fd]

The lighter & narrower it is the harder/faster one will need to swing it versus a heavier blade. That is IF it has the correct geometry, etc. At the end of the day though it oft just translates to a slight trade off in features.

[@jrbailey3208]

The ONLY way to answer this question is to DEFINE the term "CUT", which you start doing at about 3:00 time frame. I suggest a differentiation between the terms 'slice', 'cut', 'open up', etc., as they apply to the Epidermis of the intended target, as well as WHERE on the Body of the Intended target the attack point is made. A 'sharp tip/point' SHOULD open up ANY epidermis to varying degrees (first layer, second layer, right down to the muscle tissue). ALL cuts to the epidermis will cause BLEEDING; this is particularly useful if one is attempting to cause temporary BLINDING, or CHOKING of one's opponent (blood in the eyes, in the mouth), so cutting 'open' the cheek of the face, or above the brow on the forehead, could well achieve the intended outcome of gaining an advantage. Thus, one need but have a sword which will 'cut', 'slice', 'open up', the skin and create bleeding; one does NOT need to be able to 'lop off' hands, or arms, or legs, or even heads, in order to 'win the day'. The idea is to create an ever growing IMPEDENCE in the ABILITIES of the opponent to engage forcefully against a defender. 'Death by a 1,000 cuts' is a phrase which definitely has merit: 'bleed them out' also comes to mind. Cheers from the Oil Patch in Central WY, USA

[@nobodyexpectssi4654]

Maestro, en España una espada ‘Ropera’ es la espada de calle, la que se utilizaba en la vida civil para defensa personal. Las espadas anchas, cualquiera que fuera su guarnición, eran espadas militares, o de caballería. Y vaya si cortaban las ‘Roperas’.

[@raphlvlogs271]

thrust oriented weapons can often get adopted by and later on modified by more cut oriented cultures that came across them

[@theeddorian]

One question that I would be interested in is the effect of the hilt's weight on the point of balance. And, what effect does the POB have on cutting efficiency. Might need to call Doug Markaida in to test the issue.

[@Jim58223]

4:30 is that an period original? It looks brand new.

[@wizi5339]

Is there a way to know those rapiers weight, length and PoB? Just to check how much they differ from the replicas we use in HEMA

[@-RONNIE]

I think when it comes to Rapiers I do like the style of the swords in the 3 Musketeers movie from 1993 However I would just use the Munich Town Guard sword if I had a preference. There are several other types I like more.

[@charlesrobbins5683]

Technically if it has an edge it can cut to a degree…. It’s how deep they can cut after the variables is what matters

[@kaizen5023]

Cutting with a light bastard sword: I have an extremely well-made (by Michael "Tinker" Pearce) hand-and-half sword, it is 2 pounds -- confirming what is said here. YES it will cut, but what? It will cut bare skin but definitely not a coat or even light leather. It is an absolutely beautiful sword and perfectly balanced, kind of a mini longsword in look, but the blade just doesn't have enough mass near the Point of Pecussion (the sweet spot on the blade for cutting). So, I would consider it somewhat of a "courtly" sword if you will. I wouldn't bring it to fight against other swords -- but it does look fantastic and is very easy to wear.

[@raphlvlogs271]

looks like they were meant for different situations in the same time period cutting rapiers will be more suitable for adventuring / battlefield use

[@zumbazumba1]

It will cut if its sharp but real question is how deep will cut?Weight only serves to push blade deeper and make larger wound or go trough certain armor types easier.

[@Echowhiskeyone]

All swords can cut. But how well can they cut? Some extremely well, others not too well.

[@BunnyOfThunder]

Clearly the best cutting weapon is therefore the mace

[@curvingfyre6810]

Weight is a neutral value that makes some things better, and others worse. Cutting is usually *easier* with a bit more weight, in terms of depth of the cut. Thrusting tends to get harder with weight because of the precision of tip pointing. Even more exotic things like halfswording and mordschlag get better with more weight. But of course, the dexterity of the blade will get worse. Paradoxically though, the total speed of the blade often gets higher, because heavier blades tend to have more rotation movements that build up momentum using that weight, with greatsword spinning for area control being a key example. As with everything in sword design, its always a matter of degrees rather than absolutes.

[@Wastelandman7000]

Does the rapier have an edge? If yes, then it can cut. Now how well it cuts is another matter. Edge geometry is a better indicator than just weight. Though as you said the question of how well it cuts is more complicated.

[@dantherpghero2885]

But could you use it to cut a "Z" into cloth or wood?

[@Zbigniew_Nowak]

I wonder what motivated the swordsman to choose only a rapier in the form of a long needle. Total focus on stiffness? Maybe, but then - did he expect to pierce chain mail or very thick leather jackets? Or is it simply easier to make a long needle? Or: do we give up sharp edges so that the theoretical possibility of cutting does not tempt us to make such "wrong" moves?

[@texasbeast239]

Consider a shaving razor blade.

[@stephend50]

Cutting vs can cause a laceration

[@FernandoSanchez0104]

Maybe this is a silly question, but could you use the broad rapier as the thin rapier, using the same fencing? I don't know, I've always wondered since I read that destreza is supposed to be universal, and if this can also be applied to the Italians, even those who recommend long blades.

[@josephdedrick9337]

Treatises and manuals typically didn't differentiate to that specific of a degree. Long one handed, short one handed, 2 hander, daggers and polearms are commonly the most categorized they will get into. Smallsword, broadsword and saber manuals teach them as part of the same system as well. Broadsword vs saber techniques at it most different is based on blade curve and hand protection.

[@FernandoSanchez0104]

@@josephdedrick9337 I know, that's why I'm curious about the rapier, its blades and how it informs fencing. Be it a ""sidesword"" or ""rapier"".

[@freestatefellow]

Speaking of lightweight cutting powerhouses... shamshirs?

[@janibeg3247]

I have had some nasty paper cuts.

[@jeffprice6421]

I don't see how weight has much to do with it. If it has an edge, its speed and edge geometry/sharpness..

[@Wyzai]

3:48 Zorro rapiers?

[@JosephAllen-d2e]

Wakefield hanger.

[@bigsiege1848]

Do you think spadroons would be more popular if the name wasn’t so goofy?

[@springbloom5940]

It can be too light to chop. But that's not the same as cutting. A whip will cut.

[@btrenninger1]

I understand this video is focusing on rapiers but what contributes to cutting ability might be better analyzed by looking at common factors between swords explicitly designed for cutting (and what they were designed to cut). For example, lead cutters and executioner swords.

[@Wyzai]

So the usual internet problem of people putting something backwards and asserting that they must be right, because there are cases where they are right. What would be another metaphor? Judging the horse while ignoring the cart?

[@FiliiMartis]

Prediction: the speed of the tip makes the difference (quite a high speed for a long and light blade). Edit, after watching the video: what was I thinking? The answer is it depends on the context. I should have known. 😌

[@michaelsmith8028]

Isn't it all about speed? And wouldn't a light sword still do draw cuts?

[@EbefrenRevo]

Maybe a practical demostration should be more explainatory.

[@elshebactm6769]

🚬🗿👍

[@acethesupervillain348]

I'm confused as to who even tried to argue this with you. A baseball bat or a sledge hammer can be heavier than a sword and those obviously don't cut. Weight does not matter.