Can Bonyth's Carriers SLAY a Top Ladder Terran?

[@itswakkowarner]

Why can't Blizzard just make Starcraft 2 more similar to Starcraft 1. I don't even play Starcraft 1 and it's clearly better designed and more fun to watch.

[@xeofreestyler]

You can play sc1 units in sc2 but it's not the main factor of why the game isn't as good. The mechanics of unit pathing (& how they block each other), multiple building selection and selection limits play a huge part in why sc1 is such a good game. Constraints are a good thing, but gamedevs nowadays just pander to weakloids who can't manage pushing more than 2 buttons.

[@pangolinrendangered5683]

​@@xeofreestyler Assuming its not one of those auto-play games where a person doesn't have to do anything, haha

[@chongli297]

I enjoyed sc2 back in the day and it got me interested in watching games in general (I watched a ton of GSL) but now I just prefer watching brood war. I don't think they need to change sc2 to make it more like brood war; brood war already exists!

[@brazilstreets7955]

Definitely. SC 1 brings gore and death to mind, beautiful textures and all. SC 2 reminds me of Fortnite or some other cartoony bullshit.

[@itswakkowarner]

@@brazilstreets7955 SC2 is just World of Starcraft

[@distilled78]

9:45 9 workers doing nothing ... just chillin

[@sirris4330]

Yea that was super weird

[@shinjan-w5o]

@@sirris4330 and 2 more in his main....

[@stambe8605]

After the 7th worker sitting there chillin', for a moment i though the replay is broken, also because at that moment both players money skyrocketed to about 1000 minerals. Wasnt the case.

[@distilled78]

i wonder if that goes on, would they surround the nexus? lol

[@cl8804]

trashtoss like snow

[@tohothewriter8002]

Had Bonyth not lose his Carrier tech, there wouldn't wouldn't be any supply block to speak of. That shifted the tempo into the Terran's favor, making the push stronger than intended.

[@MarcoAshford]

Exactly, he lost 2 stargates and Beacon, its gg already. He could have 8+ carrier easy if he didn't lose those gates.

[@RicardoBatistaPassos]

That vulture harass was phenomenal.

[@sirris4330]

Something strange happened this game … bonyth apm dropped by like 100 for a while with nothing happening and then a huge supply block

[@TheSuperappelflap]

suddenly phone rang. hello who is this. this is dog. ok dog.

[@joebazooks]

tactically so smart to use the dropship in the corner like that as you pointed out

[@stefanc4520]

Is this replay glitched? It feels very weird with APM fluctuations and so many idle workers

[@Dziaji]

It’s just a non-korean. Only koreans can avoid idle workers all game like that.

[@stefanc4520]

@@Dziaji he had almost a dozen workers idle at one point, I suck and even I don't do that so it's definitely suspicious.

[@TheCopyTitan]

@@stefanc4520 Nope, he's just slow. His APM was most of the time below 200. I don't play a lot, and mine is 160-200.

[@sulik682]

9:52 9 IDLE PROBES?!?!?!?!! yikes

[@JTygerAU]

Was looking for this comment…pretty bad

[@GhosT-qt1nv]

typical bonyth

[@PokettoMusic]

sometimes the things you love dont love you back

[@MrKevin486]

🥺😢

[@railenmiles]

Is there a possibility of this having a replay glitch? Floating minerals and idle workers? Regardless we need more games outside of the korean scene. Gotta check in on the homies make sure they still alive ya kno

[@supaflytoon7684]

I like Bonyth's play, thanks for casting Arty!

[@deeznoodlezz]

I remember seeing a famous clip of like 7 carriers being locked down and killed. How come people don't eventually go lockdown vs carriers? takes too long for science facility + covert ops + upgrade?

[@BobfromSydney]

I think so, plus it's hard to micro and the ghosts need 100 energy each and then you need to kill all the carriers before the lockdown ends. When you combine all that, it's hard to do.

[@amp8601]

New Artosis cast? Chills.

[@i2eB6L]

it seems like every "almost pro" game, it all comes down to the pressure or lack of. bonyth let terran do whatever they wanted to

[@omuploii]

Yep. Luckily protoss is so disgustingly overpowered and easy to play that this was actually a close game.

[@Dziaji]

Yeah, the fact that you can lose like 10 probes and 2 stargates and your fleet beacon before anything else happens and then still put up a fight where the game comes down to a single close engagement against a Korean shows how unfair this matchup is.

[@IZn0g0uDatAll]

It was absolutely not a close game, terran absolutely dominated from the beginning. At no point was protoss looking good. Protoss is easier to play at low to mid level. When you get to the level of those guys, i would say that terran is stronger. Historically, at elite level, protoss has always been the weakest race.

[@yallimsorry5983]

@@IZn0g0uDatAll You're wasting your time with these philistines lol.

[@shinjan-w5o]

But i wanted to see the engagement at the bottom in 13:03 this is not fair arty.

[@joebazooks]

goddamn the probes are on strike

[@De_Nome]

I love back and forth games but this terran was really crazy.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Hey Artosiscasts, welcome back to guys!

[@DoubIeO]

Genuine question if 6 carriers is the critical number to reach in order to have almost unwinnable odds for the terran. Why do most carrier switches on build 2 stargates? Isn't it faster if you save a bit and go for 3 stargates

[@RJB_TV]

cant afford 3. if you go into carriers too hard you wont have nearly enough to survive a timing attack intended to kill toss before carriers arrive.

[@autocheesybacon2130]

What rjb said is a reason but not all of it. Another reason is build time for interceptors. Its better to get 2 with full interceptors, 2 with some and then 2 more just built than 3 with half interceptors and 3 more just build as the terran is pushing, because you basically will just have 3 paper weights floating for another min and a half before they can do anything because 2 interceptors isnt doing much.

[@stambe8605]

@@autocheesybacon2130 Yeah, people dont realise that the time needed for a Carrier to fully build 8 Interceptors is more than actually building the Carrier from the Stargate. So it takes quite a while before a Carrier is fully operational, so to speak.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

in addition to all things mentioned above, carriers cost 6 supply. so if you build 3 at a time, you will have 18 supply not usable for the build time of the carrier plus all the interceptors. that means even if you have infinite money, your army will be about 20 supply smaller for 3 minutes before the carriers are ready. If you only make 2 at a time, its easier to afford the interceptor capacity upgrade at the same time and you only have 12 supply not in action.

[@autocheesybacon2130]

@DoubIeO but yeah, to fully answer you, in theory, yes, it would be faster to go 3 stargates to build 3 carriers at once all the time, but youre assuming youd have the money and time to save to the amount needed, then build all while microing your standing army to slow terran down. But then its like, why not bank money and build 6 stargates and 6 carriers at once, theoretically, you would actually have all 6 carriers out quicker thus way with like 68 probes on 3 bases, but again, interceptors, if they attack as your carriers are coming out, you might only have 6-12 of them, vs like 22, and that damage diff is drastic.

[@michaelsander2878]

Just noticed SnOw vs SoulKey launched on the (A)SSL channel. Watching this first though.

[@andreleclerc7231]

Do top protoss build shield battery to recharge their Carrier shield sometimes? Seems like it would help getting past the initial hump when you don't have mass for them and allow some leeway in their early use.

[@Dziaji]

I used to do that when I carrier rushed. I would hide a shield battery over the ledge of a terran’s base and go recharge when shields got low, but pros don’t usually attack each others carriers. They kill the interceptors. Bonyth lost a carrier because he wasn’t oaying attention to his flank, but korean pros always keep their carriers out of range so there is really no need to worry about their health or get shield batteries for them.

[@drewwalbeck6006]

That guy is my Ride or Sky

[@QuixoticOdyssey]

Artosis casting nothing but TvP replays before Sharps match 😂

[@topshothotshot666]

R-sky catching strays from Arty

[@andrerossel8394]

My kingdom for a shield battery

[@dermensch2553]

The Terran vulture harassment at the beginning was already GG .... Protoss lost 10-15 probes....

[@gregjuva]

Carriers are imba. New Terran ability to load marines into barracks and use them as flying bunkers would help balance terran out vs carriers arbiters and shuttles. And it fits with the lore. In any universe where they had floating buildings of course they’d use that as flying bunkers!

[@patrickjack8101]

You know what fits with the lore? if every Carrier had that planet-glassing laser beam

[@janekbrat6951]

Really cool theme, but it would be disgustingly op against Zerg I can imagine. Maybe let the Marines shoot out of the Dropship. But even that would be questionable I think.

[@Larsgman]

@@janekbrat6951i dont think that would work/make sense? A dropship is supposed to be like a completely closed transport vehicle? Like a plane that drops paratroopers

[@phoenixlich]

they'd probably balance it so they could only attack ground.

[@streetstroller]

@@Larsgman They can have ball turrets or w/e.

[@brazilstreets7955]

Are carriers a thing against Zerg? Never seen it…

[@valterbranisarajevo8731]

Nope. Plague...

[@Dziaji]

The problem is actually dark swarm. Carriers outrange everything zerg has by a million miles, so even having just shields would be fine, but 1 dark swarm and your army is invincible Vs carriers.

[@ghost-user559]

Scourge, Devourers, Dark Swarm, Plague, Ensnare, Hydras. Any two of these combined can easily cripple carriers.

[@aml7758]

Artosis, please stop saying in every SSL match that Flash hasn't won 3 ASL in a row. He did win ASL 2, 3, and 4, in addition to ASL 8. As a commentator that requests money for the job, you should at least check the facts you're keeping repeating again and again

[@MasterJohnam]

Can 3-5 carriers defeat a top ladder terran without legs, drop or storm. No probably not. Can 10 carriers beat a top ladder Terran? Yes.

[@De_Nome]

Facts

[@susugam3004]

you are so gentle with foreigners, lol. he had 8 idle probes at a nexus at some point, they wrapped around 2 sides of the building. also had 2500/1500 bank at some point for no reason

[@nuclearicebreaker]

liquipedia says this bonyth guy is best foreigner but I'm not seeing it I feel like RT plays better than this protoss

[@joebazooks]

from this to ssl

[@Mark20020]

gotta ask, why do people not go ghosts in sc1? I would figure lockdown would be a good tech choice against toss (goons, dropships, reavers, carriers), or is it already too late when carriers are on the field?

[@dj_koen1265]

its only good vs arbiter and shuttle and even then not great

[@TheSuperappelflap]

as soon as protoss knows you have ghosts with lockdown, they can just split their carriers, so you would need to make 8 ghosts to lock down 8 carriers, and then have other units that can actually kill the carriers over the airspace. so it would work like maelstrom where you can try to do it once and hide the tech until you use it, but then you invested a lot of resources into maybe locking down a couple carriers that you wont all be able to kill. probably better to just make goliaths.

[@Dziaji]

The problem is the carrier range and the fact that ghosts are SUPER weak on hitpoints. In order to get a lockdown you have to be close, and in order to get close, you have to pit the ghosts in harms way and they IMEDIATELY die to goon fire, psi storm, or scarabs. It would be awesome if you could tell a ghost to way point lockdown 2 carriers in a row. If you are really good, you can get lockdown and ghosts ti work by locking down the observers or blinding them with medics. We will probably start to see that eventually.

[@jaeshin1983]

Yawn... 1 Flash level game > 100000 mid level games. I love you Artosis.

[@cl8804]

in theory

[@garrettwilson4754]

Frisson

[@flaviussaos423]

toss...

[@Fanelan053]

Agree awesome

[@MentalNewb]

Protoss losing left and right lately.

[@davidm2031]

WHY DID YOU DELETE THE SSL VIDEO!!!!! AHHHHHzhHhahbei

[@jesse1381]

Some guys just don't have the talent to make the jump from top 50 to top 20. I don't know if Ridesky lacks that extra gear or just doesn't like playing offline outside of his home. But I wish more strong amateur players would be more confident in making runs at SSL.

[@philipclements2912]

yo

[@phoenixlich]

Zerg is so HYPE!

[@MyWay-d5f]

Last engage he can move back. He akwaya makes plays skightky worse then the best.

[@heyimSkyee]

Toss brain

[@TagaBearClaw]

ggs

[@LORFCASTER]

gg

[@sossBoomer]

Solidarity in knowing hard work isn’t always enough. Chills

[@jakubdabrowski5216]

So much better play from terran yet with carriers protoss had a chance until the very end...

[@yallimsorry5983]

No he doesn't lol

[@nuclearicebreaker]

Liquipedia says this Bonyth guy is best foreigner? Uhm I feel like RT plays better than this...

[@wowlightshadow]

sorry but watching non-koreans vs koreans is just so underwhelming. you know who is gonna win before it starts...

[@markomak1]

Dewalt has taken games off of Koreans

[@omuploii]

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

[@wowlightshadow]

@@omuploii I think I have some idea, its been the same since 2005. Then it was more hope, but even then the difference was big.

[@wowlightshadow]

@@markomak1 yea ofc they can win. But probably not in an full out macro game, and how many out of a 100? maybe 10 games max? and how many of those are cheeses?

[@behold_band]

10minute carrier doesn't seem much like a "switch" at all. Bonyth should have taken a much stronger economic position (5 base) before committing to carriers so early. For the other commenters calling carriers imba. Carriers suck, Terrans just refuse to use wraiths or vessel/goliath combo correctly.

[@secdeal]

Oh yeah, Terran progamers refuse to use units correctly to win prize money in tournaments, they wouldn't want that. Sounds logical.

[@sirris4330]

@@behold_band we have ourselves a real pro gamer here ladies and gentlemen. Has it all figured out can’t wait to see him in the next asl

[@behold_band]

@@secdeal I've watched them send in like 24 goliaths to attack interceptors instead of focusing each group on a different carrier. Facts.

[@dj_koen1265]

you should try playing the game sometimes, its fun

[@De_Nome]

even if a few ghosts mixed in for lockdown can heavily ruin a carrier fleet but the issue is that players no longer care.. nowadays even the pros just play for fun without caring about winning to keep themselves relevant and make money from streams

[@cl8804]

can't believe this trashtoss hasn't made the asl; him and snow are one of a kind

[@omuploii]

The difference of skill is huge. Luckily protoss is so disgustingly overpowered and easy to play that this was actually a close game.

[@yallimsorry5983]

No it wasn't lol.