Can Fallen Pastors Be Restored? 10 Qs with Mike Winger (Ep 36)

[@sarahfaith316]

Question Time Stamps for Quick Reference: 0:00 - Intro 1. 0:10 {Can Fallen Leaders Be Restored?} Can fallen pastors who have engaged in egregious sin be restored back to ministry? 2. 52:33 {Jesus’ Ministry - Which Nature?} Do you believe Jesus did His ministry of preaching, teaching, and healing out of His divinity, or out of His humanity empowered by the Holy Spirit, in light of Matthew 3: 16-17, etc.? What about us? 3. 58:06 {Being Zealous for God’s Glory} In light of God's zeal for His own glory in all the Earth (see Ezekiel 36: 22-23; Psalm 46: 10; 2 Chronicles 6: 32-33), how can Christians be zealous for His glory among the nations, especially those who cannot go? 4. 1:00:52 {“The River” = Heaven?} Is there a biblical basis for songs about “crossing the river” into Heaven, or is that just Greek mythology? Is the Jordan River a legitimate biblical metaphor for dying and going to the Promised Land/Heaven? 5. 1:05:55 {Thinking Biblically about All Creation} Since all is God’s creation, will God hold us blameworthy for killing insects and other critters like cockroaches, mosquitoes, bees, spiders, mice, etc.? 6. 1:09:46 {Can the Unsaved Seek God?} Can people not yet saved seek after God? Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:7 to “…seek and knock and it will be opened,” but in Romans 3: 10 it says “There is no one who understands; There is no one who seeks God.” 7. 1:12:31 {Lazarus’ Resurrection - Missing?} I find the fact that the resurrection of Lazarus is missing from the Synoptics and the epistles to be unsettling. Do you have any insights on why such a massive claim is not in the earliest texts? 8. 1:16:52 {“By Faith” vs. “Through Faith”} What is the difference between “by faith” and “through faith” in Romans 3: 30? 9. 1:19:49 {Investing in Rental Properties - Sin?} I would like to start investing in rental homes. Is this flat out a sin and should I be just giving my excess to the needy people, or is it OK to invest to earn more, and just give then? 10. 1:21:35 {Are My Dreams from God?} My pastor says you can tell if a dream is from God by whether or not it aligns with Gods Word, but also if it’s very bright, warm, and vivid. He says if you’re afraid in the dream, then it’s not from God. Is that true?

[@kmm7895]

Thank you Sarah!

[@sarahfaith316]

@@kmm7895 My pleasure!

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

6)Yes of course, only God grants repentance for the contrite hearts, and when they hear the word of God, which brings salvation. 2 Timothy 2:25 “in gentleness disciplining those opposing, lest ever God may give them repentance unto a knowledge of the truth,” Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

10) No such thing as aliens. 1 John 5:19😈

[@GreggBuckley]

Mike, unfortunately, I don't have the time to watch this today, so, if you you brought up some of these verses regarding *"Can Fallen Leaders Be Restored?"* please forgive me. However, if you didn't, maybe they should be taken into consideration. Here's a few off of the top of my head, (in no particular order): Matthew 18:21,22. 1 John 1:9. John 21:15-17. (Based upon the pattern of the Greek transliterations *agapaō, phileō, agapaō, phileō, phileō, phileō, phileō* translated as love in the Lord's restoration of Peter, it provides us with a clearer understanding of the Lord's commandment to *repent (to be restored)* in Revelation 3:19. to the church of Laodicea. Galatians 6:1.: Brethren, if a man (or woman) be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, *restore* such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. If a brother or sister is ashamed, convicted by the Spirit, and apologizes for their behavior, there appears to be scripture that would more than suggest that we should offer forgiveness.

[@katiepcleans]

I once had a pastor who had to fire his dad because of alcoholism. His father was suffering from depression and started drinking a lot while he was pastoring the church. His son was then voted in as the new pastor and is still the pastor to this day. His dad was restored back to God, but never back to the senior pastor position. The restoration took over eight years and it was beautiful to see him restored. It’s been 10 years since he was restored and is still sober to this day. God is good!

[@MikeWinger]

I’m very happy to hear that he was restored in that way.

[@jnc1028]

His son was wise. God is good.

[@lancegoodall5911]

Lawson-- Solid ministry built on sand

[@Gigikelly7]

One thing that bothered me about your video is your laughter when speaking about these pastors. It’s really gossipy in the way you are reporting this. What does God say about that? This is a serious topic and I don’t think laughing about it is a good thing. It’s no laughing matter. It’s not a light topic it’s a serious one.

[@Me-ic3li]

@Gigikelli Mike has spent a lot of time going through the Scriptures here and explaining the issues. I’ve never seen a gossip examine evidence in such a detailed way. Mike has many times stated that he desires restoration, if you laugh uncomfortably at something, it’s not a sign that you enjoy the sin.

[@chishaphiri216]

"Restoring to God is a priority, restoring to ministry is not". Very true.

[@Lily-g9l]

I think pastors who are caught in sins should not be anxious to get back into ministry, but rather should serve in a lowly position and be humble and grateful for forgiveness. But I don’t think they should be in a leadership position any longer.

[@jnc1028]

I can't believe we are even asking if pastors should be restored to their roles. The bible is clear how the church should deal with people in the church.

[@bcalvert321]

@@jnc1028 It says they should be held to a higher standard. When caught doing something wrong then they should be held accountable. Depending on what they did wrong will depend on whether or not they should be a pastor again. Just remember it was the hierarchy of the Catholic church that let child molesters stay in office for many years after they knew what was happening.

[@jnc1028]

@@bcalvert321 Yes the bible is clear including "to much is given much is required". So much is abundantly clear to Believers who read their bibles and humble themselves before The Lord. Fear of The Lord is void in those who commit deeds in The Church or those who cover them up. 💯 We were warned. Some heed Him & some don't. We know He is The Righteous Judge. Stepping aside and allowing Him to do it. We know some will be found naked.

[@jnc1028]

@bcalvert321 I never read the word catholic in The Bible.

[@gabymeyer8003]

After the recent tsunami of fallen celebrity pastors, this video is full of practical and shrewd principles. Thank you, Mike.

[@RuslanKD]

41:00 mic drop. You are not TOO important. Well said. Anchoring ourselves in local church commitment and service is a great way to guard the heart. Love seeing my pastor still arranging chairs and praying for every single person that will sit in each chair. This topic reminds me of the work out your salvation with fear and trembling passage.

[@Rubberglass]

Our model, Christ, washed feet. The King of the universe wasn’t too important for the job of a servant.

[@mcfarvo]

​@@RubberglassHe was the only one who could perfectly and properly serve with pure motive and purpose, bringing all honor and glory to the Father!

[@stephenbailey9969]

Early church had bodies of elders for exactly this reason, to maintain accountability and not allow anyone to become too elevated. Only Jesus should be elevated.

[@chrissylibertyk9]

My church switches pastors every so often for this reason. I hated it when my first pastor left. It broke my heart. I finally understood the reason they do this and this is exactly it.

[@1Whipperin]

The early church had no Pastor that was the focus of the gatherings.

[@SteveWarlee]

​@@1Whipperin I wasn't there, so I don't know.

[@1Whipperin]

@SteveWarlee Do you only know what you personally witness?

[@mcfarvo]

Amen! No popes, no bishops, only sessions of elders and deacons working together with the congregation to follow Christ!

[@Mina0691]

I love hearing about the “hard” and “unpopular” topics. We’ve as a society removed ourselves from how bible teaches us to be that it’s difficult to hear. Thank you for the teaching.

[@markw5805]

Bible does teach to make children with no life experience as pastors just bc they get a Mdiv either.

[@sarahdawngariepy1064]

We attended a church when I was a child that one of the pastors had done something bad with a little girl. They 'restored' him and didn't tell anyone. I became the next girl he was inappropriate with. He was charged and went to jail. He went back to ministry and is currently the main pastor at an independent church in my city. I am thankful God helped me to forgive him and my relationship with God is good. It bothers me that this man is still in a position of leadership with God but there's nothing I can do about it

[@franparkinson2040]

@@sarahdawngariepy1064 wow that is sad and shocking. May the Lord bring the truth to the light in this day and age and not just at his Judgement Throne.

[@ShoutItFromTheHousetops]

I was an innocent 11 yr old child having fun at summer Bible camp. The groomer was the married, 29 yr old youth evangelist from CA. When I was 50 I met a woman at a business networking event. We met for coffee a month later. Found out she was a ministers daughter. I asked if she’d knew of the summer camp I’d been to. Turns out her ex-brother-in-law who “had a woman in every port” was that very same youth evangelist from CA. When she confirmed his name I literally went into shock. It seemed as if a giant invisible hand came down and slammed me backwards in my chair across the room at Starbucks. She was in a tunnel and I couldn’t make out her words. When I came to again I was shaking so hard and could still barely compose myself. She had tears in her eyes. Then she said, He died 3 yrs ago. God released me from that burden.

[@Steve_P_B]

I believe that there's no clear, cut and dried answer, and it really depends on a case by case basis. At the very least, those who commit the kind of offences that you're describing should be removed from situations where they could even be tempted to reoffend. When Billy Graham came to lead his ministry, he saw others being tempted into all kinds of sin and criminal offences and he put in place procedures for himself and his elders that at no point were any of them alone with someone who they were ministering to in order to ensure that none of them were able to be in a position where they had the opportunity to be tempted or give in to temptation.

[@ScribblebytesWorldwide]

You've done enough with this comment. You never know who is reading.

[@omartorrio1512]

I am so sorry this happened to you. And I think it happens a lot more than people realize. A preacher will commit a horrible act, but then his church and other pastors will rally around him to keep things silent and do damage control.

[@heiditurner7332]

The Robert Morris thing broke my heart. I found out on my birthday after listening to his messages online for a decade. I have a local church that I’ve been a part of for nearly 17 years who introduced me to his teachings. I loved the intellectual way he presented the gospel and OT history even though I didn’t always agree with every part of his doctrine (for example, he said once, “If you’re not tithing, you have a demon.” Mike Winger, I actually found your KZbin channel after months of praying for God to heal my heart from the hurt I felt from this man I never met. I found your channel because I was seeking a teacher with core Bible principals, someone who understood the Holy Spirit, but was not weird. Since then, I have found myself very grateful for the already 100+ times I have played something from your channel. Thank you for preaching the gospel. Thank you for your obedience. Thank you for continuing to teach us how to THINK biblically.

[@joshskalicky779]

@@heiditurner7332 Same but I had to shut him off after he kept saying “The Lord told me” all the time.

[@This.Island.Earth68]

@@heiditurner7332 "If you're not tithing, you have a demon" ?!? For him to say that, I reckon *he* must have a demon. Regards 👍

[@jjphank]

Check out Jacob Prasch if you want a really good theologian ;the best! He never talks about money

[@Nick-fi1mc]

​@@jjphankJacob is incredible! That guy knows his stuff! I love listening to him and Mike

[@cindywells941]

@@This.Island.Earth68 That demon also has a name: Greed. Some friends took me to Morris’s church in TX. The “worship” was eardrum-shattering. I had to go out until that was over. All Morris talked about was tithing. Throughout the sermon I leaned over to my friend and said, “That’s unbiblical… that’s unbiblical… he’s taking the scripture way out of context… no, he’s wrong…” etc. I had never heard him before but I was not impressed and had no desire ever to return. I was also unimpressed with the Chex mix (white trash, actually) they were handing out like popcorn before you go into the theater (yes, THEATER-I felt like we were going in to watch a movie). They had, and I am not kidding, a bowling alley, a full-blown café, and humongous screens all over the place. The “sanctuary” had the flip-up theater seats. God help that “church.”

[@shellyscholz1256]

I went with a man to his house to help his son. He then just expected me to stay the night with him and I walked out into the pouring rain hoping to find a ride home at the local convenience store/gas station because I know a lot of people so my chances of finding a ride was good. But I didn’t find anyone I knew despite praying for it. At 2am a guy walked in to buy a candy bar. He asked if I needed a ride and I felt peace about taking the ride with him. He told me that he was a local pastor who had been caught in adultery and his wife went back to California with their seven kids so he couldn’t sleep. We prayed a lot about both of our situations on the long ride home. He had taken a secular job to save for a plane ticket back to California to live with his parents. I told him what it felt like to be cheated on in a long term marriage and he wept as I told him. He asked if I had forgiven my husband and taken him back. I said that I forgave him but didn’t take him back because he was both abusive and still with the other woman. The story you told reminded me of him.

[@misstish61]

Thank you for so thoroughly covering ministry restoration. I'm 63, saved for 42 yrs and I've seen a lot in churches in that time span. Not all pastors were called by God; many call themselves, and it becomes a matter of attention and power rather than service. I want you to know I appreciate your ministry.

[@markw5805]

Amen to that…the restoration rules are harder than anything they had to do to get the role in the first place. If they were required to be that to start, a lot would be weeded out.

[@kaymojil7669]

Thank you Mike for your care and humility! I genuinely recognize a huge change in my thinking since I began both reading and learning about the Bible and aiming to think more biblically.

[@karagrace3221]

Great video, thank you. As someone who was a victim of child molestation by a Christian family member, my biggest concern about restoring fallen pastors, is the effect it would have on the people they have hurt. Like you, I don't believe that anyone who has taken advantage of children, should ever be in ministry again. That would emotionally and spiritually destroy any child he took advantage of as they would feel completely betrayed! I believe these leaders are going to answer to God for many people who have turned away from God, because of the leader's sin or lack of self control. I also feel the same about any leader who has taken advantage of various women in his congregation, especially if it's been over a number of years. It shows an innate lack of morality and control, and I don't think that leader can be trusted again with a congregation or in a position of authority.

[@lindarichardson9230]

Restored as a congregant, forgive , yes if they repent, but back in the pulpit? I don’t think so because they have broken trust with sheep they are meant to tend. That’s how I would feel if any of them had been my pastor. The Bible tells us God has a high standard for this position.

[@bethepepper]

100%

[@benjaminwatt2469]

it would depend on the issue. i would say we should be willing to restore anyone. the only exceptions would be problems that could put the flock in danger such as heresy, especially if they tried to hide it

[@benry007]

​@@bethepepperi would say 98%. As in 98% of the time they should never get back in to the pulpit. I agree with Mike that restoration of the person is the goal. Restoration into ministry should be very rare and only be considered after many years working in the private sector so they aren't motivated by money to get back in.

[@OLskewL]

high standard applies t Body too.

[@machineman541]

They are not PASTORS. Never was, never will be. So why the restoration argument ?

[@王玓-i1k]

I’m from China and love your ministry

[@MyYarnRunnethOverByElla]

Ha ha ha...someone from South Africa is watching this video 😂😂ME!! I am grateful to say that we are currently in a church where accountability and especially in leadership is HUGE and that makes me feel safe.

[@RabbitWhiteThe]

If you don't mind me asking, what church is it? And where?

[@MyYarnRunnethOverByElla]

@RabbitWhiteThe we are in the Joshua Generation church in South Africa.

[@RabbitWhiteThe]

@MyYarnRunnethOverByElla nice... I used to live in PE. Josh Gen is also in the eastern cape right?

[@MyYarnRunnethOverByElla]

@@RabbitWhiteThe yes!

[@MatthewShamrockByles]

Watch out for john anosike hes much worse than all these men. Once called himself a principality and "speaks" in deomic tongues.

[@hiddentreasureseeker]

🕊Amongst several ultra-famous pastors there is a culture of silence and covering up for each other. I continue to pray that the truth be revealed. It’s a simple prayer that applies to us all, and asks for our shepherds to be accountable.

[@geekbride77]

That’s so true. Years ago I was a member of a church that “ministered” with Benny Hinn and some other big names. We were in a position to see who they really were at home and behind the scenes. I remember one of them messed up big time and we were told to “touch not His anointed” and that if we called out their sin then God would make sure we fell into the exact same sin.

[@gulanhem9495]

@@geekbride77 That's so disgusting lol. But honestly I saw this behaviour with cultures of silence, deception and corruption in small Evangelical churches too here in Sweden, and it's why I gave up on churches all together. It just doesn't work because the structure incentivises bad actors to rise to the top.

[@janetsmiley6778]

The Archbishop of Canterbury just resigned in utter disgrace because he covered up physical and s abuse of schoolboys for decades.

[@jukeboxhero30]

I worked at a megachurch for about 6 years and then in Hollywood for one year right afterwards. The two were so much alike in terms of behavior and sin, it was scary. The only difference was, the church obviously tried to make sure the sin never came to light.

[@tonypasolli7334]

Don't be sorry. We need to discern these things together. Presently dealing with this issue as a Lead Pastor in my church.

[@christarr7006]

The bigger the Church the bigger the temptation. Charisma is closely tied to power and manipulation.

[@markw5805]

Which means they weren’t qualified to start.

[@JESUStheARK]

Thank you for covering such a topic about restoring church leaders. In “my opinion” very well done within the time constraints. Very very well done. 🕊️

[@lakebafondren5868]

OH MAN, This is REAL TALK. Hard to hear, but necessary. Not only did you present a mature, honest, and sorber assessment the matter, but you provided a clear course of action for the problem. How skillful. I am particularly grateful for your explanation of how unchecked sin in the person begins the problem and how enablement by the church helps create predators of pastors and victims of parishoners. Thank you for your stern admonition to the church to deal with these kinds of matters honestly and restoratively, but not without serious consequence. No more claiming ignorance, no more sweeping things under the rug. The church has been dirty for far too long and YOU, kind Sir, have been designated the broom. Surely your talk has brought a sense of vindication to those who suffered in silence and relief to the wounded. My prayer is that there will be more like you who will stand for truth and call for purity so the church can get back worshiping God, and not these wayward ministers.

[@cindywells941]

Your T-shirt is so great! When I could finally see enough of the word beneath “Former,” I laughed right out loud. Excellent!!!

[@Ben94729]

I do not want to be that person... but did i miss something that i'm not getting the joke😅

[@jmunt]

I don’t think it’s necessarily meant to be a joke other than I guess in a sense it could be thought to be poking fun at folks who think embryos aren’t humans

[@cindywells941]

@@jmunt Exactly. 😊

[@cindywells941]

@@Ben94729 I just couldn’t see the second word and when I did, I busted up. Did not see that coming and I loved it. That’s all. 😊

[@stevenogle2661]

Former embryo

[@theynot4u]

One thing I've never understood is why when a pastor commits a sin worthy of removal from the pulpit, the leadership in that church feels its unbiblical to expose that sin. This has happened multiple times with the same man in my area. He was the assistant pastor in a large church and was kicked out. His sin was never exposed, so when he started another church, he just said the pastor was jealous of his gifts. We went to his "new" church for a year and realized something was off, so we left. Later, he was discovered again in multiple grievous sins. AGAIN, he was kicked out of the church, and he split the church and started a new one. He is SO unfit (and unsafe) to be a pastor, yet no one in church leadership will publicly call him out.

[@Lady_Saturnwarrior]

As you are aware of their continued practice of sin, call them out and spare as many as you can from his false teachings. Ephesians 5:6-21. Although we are puny congregants, God has granted us a big voice when we are upholding His word. Uphold God's word no matter to the breaking of hearts and feelings as it is better for one to have the truth than to have the lies that sends them straight to hell. God bless.

[@julieOsmondson]

Sad situation.

[@bikerboy9010]

I agree with what you said about forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean trusting someone again, not being held accountable for your actions, etc. Forgiveness means not dwelling on the issue, moving on with your life, etc.

[@Gillyaad]

Probably one of the most biblical pastors I've had the opportunity of listening to

[@johnschwenke6307]

1 Timothy 3 says This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be BLAMELESS, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; FORGIVE yes, SPURITUAL RESTORATION yes, RESTORATION TO OFFICE, NO. They are no longer BLAMELESS therefore UNQUALIFIED to the office of PASTOR.

[@justice8718]

I have one massive issue here. What man in this existence, besides Christ, is blameless?

[@markw5805]

When did they get qualified in the first place? They went to Bible college and married a woman. Think of how sad it is for them to aspire to be a pastor and know they have to be married to do so. Not exactly the right start to a marriage.

[@sciencescholar3440]

​@@justice8718but the command is to be holy as He is holy....so?

[@justice8718]

@@sciencescholar3440 And where do you get this state?

[@sciencescholar3440]

@@justice8718 here, now, but not in the sense of perfection, but again it's a process, until nd unless you start obeying, u will not reach there.

[@ScruffyApologetics]

One of the more frustrating things that seems to be consistent in our day is that these things are exposed from outside the church. Newspapers, online journalists, and the actual victims reaching out to the public sphere because of the lack of church accountability within. This is a grievous sin. We must do better. God will judge us for this.

[@jukeboxhero30]

A lot of it comes from fear. We're lead to believe that we are not allowed to question our pastors or hold them accountable, lest we be accused of sowing "seeds of division". "Live and let live" or "Judge not", thats the attitude these days, and even moreso with church leaders. And if it isnt one of those, its "touch not the Lord's anointed".

[@revmolter]

@@ScruffyApologetics agreed. The lack of accountability within the church is a poor witness. Many people have left Christ because of it. I know many folks who have left the church over support for leaders who demonstrate unchrist like character. Trump being one of them.

[@ScruffyApologetics]

@@jukeboxhero30 💯

[@moanatrammell2131]

Trump is Not a Pastor nor an Elder in the Church. God however, can use him or anybody for His Kingdom! Pray for those in authority is our duty! ❤

[@revmolter]

@@moanatrammell2131 that's a lame excuse to condone immoral behavior.

[@billylindsey3678]

Mike I just want to say i always enjoy your gracious and humble commentary, even when I don't completely agree with you. You truly model how the body of Christ should conduct ourselves in the discussions of many of these sensitive topics without ever being divisive or just outright mean-spirited. And i love you're not quick to label everyone a heretic or false prophet for having differing views yet still hold to the essentials. Instead you're always gracious in hoping, believing, and praying for the best in all of us. I wish more prominent bible teachers conducted themselves like you.

[@danielowen1201]

Commenting on my husband’s YT account. I would love to write you a letter to tell you how you’ve blessed me, my family, and my church. Long story short, you are a younger version of my dad, who has been pastoring since 1988. You share his passion for the Word, and have a similar journey coming out of strict (wrong) teachings by exploring the scriptures diligently. We pray for you regularly.

[@stevenandrewgraham]

Mike, I just want to encourage you and thank you for this video (and your ministry). I recently preached a message from 1 John 2, at our church, touching on the depravity of the American culture and church, calling us to step up to the plate, turn from worldly desires, become aware and stand firmly against our own desires, turning them towards Christ. Point being, many conversations are going on about this exact subject in our community, and I imagine many others. It needs to be discussed, thought through, and we shouldn't be afraid to humbly and lovingly call these things out. Many folks in our circles tend to minimize a lot of these circumstances because they see these men (and women) as "anointed" and "used by God," somehow excusing or overshadowing what they've done. Not to say God didn't use some or all. As you say, this is difficult stuff. I really benefited from you walking through this, hearing your thoughts. You always do so with such love and humility. Keep up the great work. May the peace of Christ be yours.

[@michellehand2271]

Thank you for addressing the fallen pastors topic. It is much needed.

[@victorcharlie7491]

Thank-You Mike, Have a Wonderful Thanksgiving, God bless You! Have a Wonderful Thanksgiving Sarah!

[@LzCoda]

I always question WHY fallen pastors and other leaders want so badly to be restored to ministry. Pride? Ambition? I mean, if you've disqualified yourself, or you know that you've at least sinned and compromised in such a way to hurt the cause of Christ, why not just willingly, humbly remove yourself permanently? After all, it's not just about you! When I see Tullian Tchividjian online, teaching, and preaching, I'm just blown away by his hubris. I actually don't doubt his repentance, and I suppose his restoration to the Lord. But why is he so compelled to get back into the ministry?

[@deborahszafraniec4829]

I suspect it's about money. These men aren't qualified for any other work that will pay them the kind of money they're used to!

[@alanpierce2002]

It's their job (often one they've held for decades), and it's a public facing job, and the disqualifying sin is often publicly exposed. Imagine if a google search would bring your absolute worst deeds to a prosepective employer's attention. It's a difficult road to change professions filled with uncertainty. Christians are by nature 'forgiving', so getting 'restored' might be the most direct path to restore financial stability to their lives.

[@AZmom60]

Sometimes they don’t think they have any other skills & simply don’t know what else to do, plus being a pastor typically brings respect & honor, and their ego wants that back.

[@markw5805]

They need money like anyone else in this modern world, they have no other skill prospect. If they could life a decent life without going back into ministry my guess is they wouldn’t come back.

They've gone through training and schooling and spent many years in a role. It feels like home in that role, it's what they're good at. It's what they know. It's like a doctor getting in trouble but then being able to go start a different practice. They're so invested.

[@freedomfighter4990]

THANK YOU Mike for not ignoring this issue of fallen pastors! The whole world knows about the lies & sins of these fallen Christian leaders. It reflects badly on Believers & on God by extension. I also believe that a fallen pastor shouldn't be restored to leading a church, but they can & should be welcomed back into fellowship with other church members -- IF the elders determine in the fullness of time that he has legitimately repented.

[@jrhemmerich]

I thank the Lord for your wisdom and charity. May we continually grow in the knowledge of the Lord.

[@terrymanahan9586]

Thanks, Mike, for thinking extensively through this topic. Your "rules" are very thoughtful and relevant. However, I think churches could avoid complicating the matter by just focusing on the qualifications for elders in 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, and 1 Peter 5. The first qualification in Timothy and Titus is "above reproch." Any sexual immorality that becomes public makes the person no longer above reproach. And as you said, it would take a long time for that person to once again be above reproach, perhaps never. Above reproach is possibly the umbrella under which all the other qualifications fall.

[@cbtam4333]

Thoughtful point.

[@AliyahNadeau]

That’s what I always think when I hear about a pastor who has had an affair going back into ministry,I always hear the argument “well they are so gifted and have lead people to the lord”,well guess what,they threw away that gift when they decided to sleep with someone that wasn’t their wife.

[@justice8718]

@AliyahNadeau And what is your replacement?

[@markw5805]

So when do these child pastors get proven out in college. A person shouldn’t even be considered for a pastor unless they have been married for a decade, 35, and have kids…then they might have the life experience to actually qualify. The well is shallow At 23 coming out of school.

[@kristinewarren1313]

Thank you for tackling question #1, really appreciated it. Keep up the good fight! God Bless you and your family!

[@timothywisner9319]

Thank you for sharing biblical teaching. I appreciate your faithful ministry and humble attitude. May God guard your heart and soul as you serve him.

[@dawnchristine1344]

As always very Biblical and informative talk. Thank you Mike

[@geekbride77]

Thank you so much Pastor Mike! What you do on here is priceless.

[@StephenLoney]

Brother Mike, blessings! "Do not let kindness and truth leave you"

[@elysemcclure148]

Only God can truly know someone’s heart. The rest of us have to make our best guess based on what fruit we see. So, there has to be limits to the type of failings that fallen pastors are allowed to be restored from. A pastor might be truly repentant, a pastor might be genuinely changed, but we fellow humans can’t know for sure. What we _do_ know is that a pastor must be capable of making some seriously convoluted rationalizations if he willfully commits such sins; sins that hurt other people and break his oaths… and then passionately preaches the Bible on Sunday mornings… and goes right back to his secret sin. He might sincerely think he’s sorry (and so he might appear genuinely repentant), but he doesn’t even understand the deceitfulness of his own mind.

[@tanjasmit7535]

Just love your sound teaching Mike Winger 👌🏼🇿🇦

[@barbarahawkins7864]

I love studying with you... Your willingness to talk about subjects that people find frightening or overwhelming as you do not run from those. I really appreciate that! God bless you and your family!

[@Bonend482]

I think this conversation is really important because so many people who don’t believe see church’s as hypocritical because they will “let” a sinner lead or be involved in a church but won’t let someone who is homosexual, etc, do the same. No all sin is a problem and it should prevent you from church leadership and eldership.

[@martahampton1175]

We still love you, Mike! You’re such a blessing!

[@lindawarner7496]

Excellently done, Mike.

[@mratliff1277]

Feathers not ruffled! Thank you for your Biblical and level-headed ministry! 🙏🏼🤗❤️

[@lisacox7965]

Yes thanks for covering this

[@LeeHarle-q3j]

You are awesome, Mike. I always benefit from your podcasts. I pray that God will continue to bless your ministry.

[@jimbowumbo]

I agree with you! Thats why I felt it was such a strange thing for him to say. I love my pastor but sometimes am thrown after the things he’s said. Thank you for replying to my question!!

[@GROENAASMusic]

I attend a church that once had a corrupt pastor. The pastor eventually had to resign, as the church couldn't tolerate his actions and his prideful ways. In many ways, he both escaped his responsibilities and was forced out. Years later, he acknowledged his faults, took responsibility, and even preached about the dangers of pride and how it can destroy a ministry. While he was never able to lead a large church again, he found redemption by sharing his story and lessons learned.

[@christinedelany2616]

That shirt is way cool! I would love to own one!

[@Angel_theLastAirbender]

🤯 Wow, I think you need to do a video just on the aspects of an unrepentant heart! Minimize, deny, and blame. That's powerful!! 🙌✝️❤️

[@lindawarner7496]

Former embryo 👏👏

[@Lady_Saturnwarrior]

Amen! Praise God we made it into the world!

[@kevinpulver4027]

BALANCED and right 100% Thank you Bro. Mike!

[@anniekierstead5419]

Excellent message on a difficult subject. None of these men shocked me when they were exposed - except Steve Lawson. His teaching had so much depth to it. I confess, I can't understand this - not from Steve. I'm not putting him on a pedestal. I just don't understand how a man can teach so powerfully; and know Scripture so well; know all its warnings, then continue in a sin that's as serious as this. I just don't understand this Mike. But thank you for addressing these sad problems with compassion AND wisdom. ❤️

[@missrandiportesi9907]

I've been listening to you for a few years now and have learned so much from your ministry. Thank you so much for all you do and for helping me think more biblically! Keep doing the Lord's work in the love and compassion that you have been! I'm praying for you and the ministry!

[@Linda-mo5sl]

I might be the South African viewer you were referring to😉 I thank God for your ministry and the seed you sew.

[@christyrucker2479]

Thank you for commenting on Christmas trees! You have no idea how thankful I am for that section of this

[@eliasrayz1412]

thank you Pastor

[@glendamartin8065]

All things are possible with God !

[@michaelbanak1441]

Thanks, Mike. You're an inspiration to me. Permanent disqualification is common in the Bible: 1) Adam and Eve had to step down from their ministry in the garden. No recovery. 2) Esau stepped down from all the privileges and blessings of the firstborn, by selling his birthright for a bowl of soup. No recovery. 3) Reuben defiled his father's bed, and stepped down from all the privileges and duties of the First born. (See Gen 35:22-23 and 1Chron 5:1) No recovery. 4) The original plan was for Moses to be part of Israel's entry into the Promised Land. (Ex 6:7-8). He lost that opportunity without recovery after the 2nd rock-and-water incident in Num 20:11-12. Though he begged Yahweh to reconsider, he was silenced Deut 3:25-26. 5) King Saul had the kingship torn from him, in a dramatic scene in 1Samuel 15:26-28. No recovery. 6) King David appointed himself to be builder of the Temple. He seemed to be on a roll, until Nathan returned and told him "no way". David stepped down with style, and made provision for his son to do the job. 7) Gehazi, assistant to Elisha, was smitten with leprosy after trying to make money from a miracle. Observant Bible students know that the assistant to a prophet is often the next in line. Gehazi had to step down from his duties and was never recovered. 8) Even if Judas hadn't hung himself, it was prophesied, "Let another take his office". PS 109:8, Acts 1:20

[@justice8718]

King David didn’t step down from the temple. God didn’t want him to build it because the blood on his hands would invade it, when the blood is meant for sacred sacrifices. God wanted Solomon to do it instead. That’s more of God having different purposes for different men.

[@michaelbanak1441]

@@justice8718 Your point suggests that the other items on my list still stand. Thanks. I tried to make clear that David's position was self-appointed, making this case distinctive. You know, of course, David got a boost from Nathan's presumptuous prophecy. Those, who defile their office today, would do well to note David's example ... he graciously set the stage for those, who came after him. HalleluYah.

[@justice8718]

@@michaelbanak1441 what example? King Solomon was far worse.

[@michaelbanak1441]

@@justice8718 When Solomon built that Temple, his slate was pretty clean.

[@justice8718]

@ His slate wasn’t clean to God. Nor was Moses. He simply represented wisdom. His father represented strength. Solomon is the period of peace to come under Christ. David is the period of destruction to come upon the arrival of Christ.

[@ceedeee6867]

As long as I have been in “church” -- I have found more real truthful people at a bar -. I have shared the gospel more than ever Have met the best souls--

[@JPGola-n9w]

🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸please pray for salvation for, My husband Pete, and two sons, Chris and Nick. Also, my daughter had a biopsy on her leg. Won’t know the results until next week.

[@lauragarrard919]

Praying now.✝️🤍

[@JPGola-n9w]

@@lauragarrard919. God bless you, Laura🌺🌺🌺

[@jbourne2013]

Thank you for standing up for the freedom to use Christmas trees. We are enjoying the Lords nature. Similar to picking flowers and enjoying their beauty and scent in your home. I appreciate that you always fall upon the truth of the WORD whether it is a popular idea or not.

[@dansaunders6761]

At about 10:00, Mike says he is not in a position to say whether or not they should be restored because he is not in authority over them. While true, the larger point and problem is NONE of these men are under any sort of normative/historical church authority, not one of them.

[@francesmunro9560]

I just want to thank you Mike and the The Lord Jesus for your ministry. I really appreciate your thoughtful biblical response to tricky and often challenging questions about our faith and to your unwavering commitment to basing your thoughts on what the bible says. I appreciate your humility in acknowledging when you are not certain about subjects or where you haven’t had time to research a subject but still try to address it at some level. I appreciate your use of plain language dealing with heavy theological issues so they are understandable to us laymen. This is a gift from God. I recommend you to my sister in Bern in Switzerland who recently became a Christian watching KZbin during lockdown (I’m in the UK). She has grown greatly in her faith and finds your ministry very helpful. Be blessed and keep up the great work to the glory of God. 🙏🙏🙏

[@kaymojil7669]

Re: Q4, running with the metaphor… The River Jordan’s name comes from the word “descend” or “down” because it flows down toward the Dead Sea, the sea of salt. Salt is a symbol of Godly grace. In concentration, it will season, purify, kill things. That is where the water of baptism carries our sin. When Israel crossed the Jordan river to reach the promised land without being swept away to death- when Jesus Christ was baptized in the river, when he enacted the prophetic past of Israel as one man- when the disciples baptized new believers there- the water in both cases would eventually flow down into a body of water that is so so so full of purifying SALT that normal living things cannot endure it. Passing through death but not dying.

[@Botanicalart]

Thank you for this. Its so helpful and needful, for the body of Christ, and people who are not believers, to see Christians standing up for truth.

[@basedghostcoasttocoast]

I used to go to Gateway but left a couple years ago when they had a racially segregated worship service to "fight racism" on mlk day. I happened to be watching online that day but would've walk out if I were there that day. I knew there was something up with that guy (Robert Morris)

[@Star-dj1kw]

Ugh? I don’t understand the reasoning of how a segregated service would do anything positive for healing racial wounds

[@moirarussell1950]

I’m just as excited to hear the questions as the answers sometimes. Thanks Mike and thanks to the people who write in. Today was a huge blessing to me. Best questions ever.

[@dorothybandell6592]

I see all of this in my ex-husband. He wasn't in ministry, but he w a nted to be in ministry. He could never be because he divorced me and married a friend of oura who also divorced her husband. It was so destructive to both of our families. They are no longer together. I am praying for him to be restored in his life.

[@markw5805]

I’m sorry this happened to you, but relates to a point I’ve been trying to make. We anoint children with college degrees as pastors, that haven’t had the life trials to be proved “worthy”

[@gabriel201018]

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@Mr.biggstrength]

This was excellent

[@jsqproductions7281]

33:00 I appreciate this, it spoke to me realising how much I seek for validation from others because of my pride. Something I didn't even think about that I struggle with in my own life, and I need to get on top of so I'm not constantly seeking self-gratification.

[@masteringfibromyalgia]

This video is loooooooonnnnngggggg overdue!

[@marygarcia633]

Thank you Pastor Mike for speaking to even to these most sensitive - controversial church topics! You are a gem!

[@peggieadamson9330]

A church I went to MANY years ago, a deacon was committing adultery. He wouldn’t repent so the elders ex-communitated him. What a hard time it was.

[@Peter-dm3wg]

36:10: Nepotism. I also forget this word regularly. Anyway Mike, thank you for being so humble in your teachings. You and your team are to be commended for all your diligent work. I am eating baby food in faith at the moment but am exited to grow and learn more.

[@run4cmt]

What is more concerning to me is the heresy many of these pastors preach.

[@TerryChambers7]

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” ‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@arcguardian]

19:00 Peter denied Christ in what way though? I thought he simply denied knowing Christ to avoid* being persecuted, not that he denied the divinity/salvation of Christ, which i think would be a greater sin. I think this should be unpacked more.

[@Anabee3]

If you don't want to wait for Mike to have the time to answer your (?) IF he even sees your (?)... You can find the answer by reading your Bible. If you dont have a Bible, you can download a Bible on your ph, or even just Google the particular part you're asking about. PS: I find it ENORMOUSLY helpful when I remember to pray first- asking Holy Spirit to guide me & give me clarity thru what I'm reading.

[@brandondriver99]

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:33

[@peterfox7663]

Correct. He didn't deny Christ in his heart. He lied, merely hours after armed defense of Jesus in Gethsemane, about knowing Jesus to save his own skin.

[@JonathanWelton]

Excellent list of rules. 100% 👏 very humble presentation

[@kkwok9]

To the Body of Christ, yes. To be behind a pulpit again...no!

[@junederksen9205]

100%

[@victorytoch9430]

Thank you for discussing question 1. This issue has weighed heavily on my heart and it was encouraging to hear your input on it since I do feel that most Christians tend to shy away from difficult conversations like that.

[@AlyssaDDani]

They have to be beyond reproach. They must have a good reputation. They hurt their wife, family, and the one they are taking advantage and abusing. Never have them back in ministry.

[@michaelbarnard9087]

Lots of discussion about the fallen pastors topic (rightly so), BUT the second question on Jesus' ministry out of his humanity or divinity is also a huge topic! So glad you covered it, thank you Mike.

[@violetpelham2067]

Todd Bentley not only left a deaf wife and his children, but married his mistress and stepped right back into the pulpit with the mistress. Then the two of them have been in sexual sin outside of their marriage, and still in ministry. Ridiculous behavior!

[@SurvivorC]

I love your channel & ministry. Thank you for how you handle topics biblically. Robert Morris’s church just announced he is threatening them & wants money. I live near IHOP & so many people followed him I never understood why. I had a husband who turned out to have lots of secrets & my faithful church helped me & began church discipline in love & taught me how to understand what true repentance is when I kept “forgiving” him without repentance. We are divorced. My life has been very damaged. Somehow I saw it in pastors & could stay away , but missed it in my own life.

[@jenj8269]

Mike Bickle was at IHOP, not Robert Morris.

[@sarahpfeuffer1396]

As a Christian, it is our duty to forgive someone whether they are repentant or not. Unforgiveness harbors bitterness, delays emotional healing and promotes separation from God. Matt 6: 14-15

[@run4cmt]

But I think the question is whether they should be restored to a leadership position?

[@maxspringer01]

It is simply not biblically true that it is a Christian's duty to forgive someone whether they are repentant or not. It's a false dichotomy to act as if it's either forgiveness or bitterness. I would recommend reading through the entire New Testament specifically looking at what it has to say about repentance and forgiveness only. Pay attention to everywhere both concepts are taught, and then use your sober mind to think about the logical implications of some of the assumptions you might bring. If we are to "forgive others as God in Christ forgave us", then this means we are to forgive others WHEN they repent. God forgives us WHEN we repent, and so we should do the same to others. If someone does not repent, and remains in unrepentance, God does not forgive that person. He remains willing and ready to forgive, He offers forgiveness, but that forgiveness is not granted until that person repents. It's the same with us.

[@sarahpfeuffer1396]

@maxspringer01 what about Luke 23:3 where Jesus said Father, forgive them for they know not what they do? They didn't repent. And what about the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35? The servant is expected to forgive the debts even though the other had not paid it. I don't see how it's possible to have unforgiveness without bitterness. They go hand in hand.

[@maxspringer01]

@@sarahpfeuffer1396 You are bringing up some good verses, and let me prod you a bit on them. When Jesus prayed that the Father would forgive them, do you think God actually forgave them? If they didn't repent for the murder of God's innocent Son, does God forgive them? We know the answer is no, because this is the basics of the gospel. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. If we don't, they remain unforgiven. Read the parable in Matthew 18 again. Verse 26 shows the first debtor fallen on his knees, begging for patience. Note he didn't even ask to be forgiven of all his debt, just for more time to pay it back. And verse 29 shows the second debtor also fallen down on his knees, begging for patience to pay it back. Those are both stances of repentance if I ever saw one. *Both servants acknowledge the debt they owe, and both beg for mercy. This is repentance.* Note the parallel - the manner in which the first happened, was expected to be the way the second happened. Just as God forgives us when we repent, so we too are to forgive others *when they repent.* Regarding the bitterness thing, there are plenty of people God has not forgiven because they continue hard-hearted in their sin, defiant and unrepentant to God. Would you describe God as 'bitter' towards those people because He hasn't forgiven them? No, rather, God sees their sin, acknowledges their wrongdoing, and is ready and willing to forgive when they come to Him with genuine contrition and godly sorrow. It's supposed to be the same for us. Even earlier up in Matthew 18, go back and look at verses 15-17. When Jesus says "if a brother sins against you", He then says "if he will not listen, do XYZ" three times. The XYZs are always to ratchet up the heat until the offender is ultimately regarded as an unbeliever. Not once does Jesus says "if he will not listen, forgive him anyway." Believe me, I understand that it might feel like a weird mental shift to change your view on this given what is typically taught in the church these days, but once I sat down and looked at what the New Testament actually says and represents about this topic, I saw this "forgiveness no matter what, forgiveness or else you are bitter" that I'd been taught my whole life simply wasn't true. God cares through His Word that the victim, the wounded, wouldn't be doubly damaged by being required to forgive without the offender also being required to show genuine sorrow.

[@maxspringer01]

@@sarahpfeuffer1396 I wrote a response, but don't see it showing up anywhere. I'll try again. You are bringing up some good verses, and let me prod you a bit on them. When Jesus prayed that the Father would forgive them, do you think God actually forgave them? If they didn't repent for the murder of God's innocent Son, does God forgive them? We know the answer is no, because this is the basics of the gospel. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. If we don't, they remain unforgiven. Read the parable in Matthew 18 again. Verse 26 shows the first debtor fallen on his knees, begging for patience. Note he didn't even ask to be forgiven of all his debt, just for more time to pay it back. And verse 29 shows the second debtor also fallen down on his knees, begging for patience to pay it back. Those are both stances of repentance if I ever saw one. Both servants acknowledge the debt they owe, and both beg for mercy. This is repentance. Note the parallel - the manner in which the first happened, was expected to be the way the second happened. Just as God forgives us when we repent, so we too are to forgive others when they repent. Regarding the bitterness thing, there are plenty of people God has not forgiven because they continue hard-hearted in their sin, defiant and unrepentant to God. Would you describe God as 'bitter' towards those people because He hasn't forgiven them? No, rather, God sees their sin, acknowledges their wrongdoing, and is ready and willing to forgive when they come to Him with genuine contrition and godly sorrow. It's supposed to be the same for us. Even earlier up in Matthew 18, go back and look at verses 15-17. When Jesus says "if a brother sins against you", He then says "if he will not listen, do XYZ" three times. The XYZs are always to ratchet up the heat until the offender is ultimately regarded as an unbeliever. Not once does Jesus says "if he will not listen, forgive him anyway." Believe me, I understand that it might feel like a weird mental shift to change your view on this given what is typically taught in the church these days, but once I sat down and looked at what the New Testament actually says and represents about this topic, I saw this "forgiveness no matter what, forgiveness or else you are bitter" that I'd been taught my whole life simply wasn't true. God cares through His Word that the victim, the wounded, wouldn't be doubly damaged by being required to forgive without the offender also being required to show genuine sorrow.

[@alanda8109]

THANK YOU, Mike! You are right on target, scripturally, as usual!

[@lkae4]

The biggest problem with Steve Lawson is not that he's an adulterer. The biggest problem is that he was a lone wolf Christian who was one step alway from taking over John MacArthur's position as one of the leaders of non-denominational Christianity.

[@michellejohnsen912]

Calvanism is a doctrine of demons

[@kiss771000]

There are some sins that irreparably shatter a man's reputation and disqualify him from a ministry of leadership forever. Even Paul, man of God that he was, said he feared such a possibility. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 he says, "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

[@zacdredge3859]

"Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." ~ 1 Timothy 3:2-3 I fail to see how someone can transgress one of these standards and later be 'restored' to the same ministry. If someone has ceased to be "above reproach", which would seem to be the case at minimum in all of these public scandals, they are permanently disqualified from Eldership. If anything the prerogative to have high standards of evidence and not be hasty in removing someone from office makes the most sense if they can't be restored. If restoration is a possibility in the way Mike seems to be suggesting then these standards would be less necessary. The example of Mark seems to be a case where he wasn't guilty of some great sin but his character was inadequate to the task as Paul saw him as weak-willed and cowardly. This isn't him being disqualified from a ministry role; it's being passed over for the job due to flakiness.

[@justice8718]

To me. It makes me think it isn’t actually being a pastor but instead is about renewal. The first step is being blameless, and that implies so so so so much more than having a “clean record for a man”. It’s about having the robe of Christ that does make you blameless before the LORD. Otherwise, Apostle Paul wouldn’t be allowed into the role. Ever. Because he was a fallen pastor, preaching against Christ and killing his servants.

[@zacdredge3859]

@@justice8718 I'm not entirely sure your point is. All Christians have the righteousness of Christ, it's clearly not the topic of conversation when it comes to the standards for Elders or the only requirement would be that they are a sincere Christian. Paul actually wasn't a Pastor. He was a pharisee in the past, before conversion, then became the Apostle to the Gentiles and worked as a full-time missionary. Besides, there's a difference between having a particularly sinful past and sinning in an egregious way while in a position of authority within the Church.

[@markw5805]

Would you ever say any freshly married 23 yo is “beyond reproach”? But we do when “we” make them pastors straight out of school or in a few years. They were never “proven” to be anything, bc they’ve never had trials of real adult life.

[@curtisroberts9849]

Mike thank you for your words of encouragement. God blessings

[@allenehelmick3671]

I agree i do not think they should be allowed,predators should go to prison

[@CdnEnjoyLife]

The last one was relevant to my experience. Thank you for elaborating.

[@darklotus5309]

When David sinned. Was there legal prescription to “stone the king”? He was under the mosaic law & he committed adultery & pre meditated murder. Did the kingdom have the legal authority to remove him from the throne? Or if they didn’t have any recourse was he not restored because he couldn’t be held accountable anyway. He was put in check by the prophet & David acknowledged & repented.

[@heymichaelc]

lol, David was not a priest or served in the temple. Love when you all use King David in many scenarios as a scape goat. What happen to Arron's sons who actually served in the temple? Don't think you want to be heading off into the O.T for N.T church behavior. Waiting for your answer.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

Relevant Torah provisions include: • Not deciding a case on the evidence of a single witness (Deuteronomy 19:15); • A transgressor shall not testify (Exodus 23:1); • Not to execute someone for a capital offence before he/she has stood trial (Numbers 35:12); and • Not accepting the testimony of a close relative of the defendant in capital cases (Deuteronomy 24:16). So, before David could have been punished, he would have to have been convicted at a trial at which at least two independent eyewitnesses gave evidence against him. There isn't anything in the account to show that those requirements would have been satisfied.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

​@@heymichaelcWhat has anything concerning David's crimes to do with whether he was a priest or served in the temple?

[@heymichaelc]

@@Berean_with_a_BTh I thought it was obvious, many run to King David as a scape goat for adultery and many other issues in the church, looking for an O.T fix instead of adhering to the instructions given to us in Christ and apostles.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

​@@heymichaelcI have never heard _anyone_ do that. Do you even know what a scapegoat is?

[@melindat419]

Thank you Mike! We do reap what we sow!