Can I Beat Whitney with Every Pokemon in Johto?

[@variksigurdsson1447]

I personally think the "legit" rules were far more interesting overall. Most things with unobtainable moves and a choice band can sweep anything. Norman in particular is intresting with only legit because the protect TM isn't avalible yet.

[@kbowman772]

That said, it should specifically be the TM that is banned. If they learn it by level, they get to use it.

[@variksigurdsson1447]

@kbowman772 if your doing "legit" only, then there is no protect tm to ban.

[@Blackadder125]

I really liked the restricted ruleset for round 1 in this! That's definitely something to keep as part of the challenge for non-E4 trainers. If you do Norman, it'll probably make a huge difference, since you can't obtain the Protect TM until Lilycove. A minor gripe I have is that I think winning with Explosion/Selfdestruct shouldn't count, since the game considers a draw to be a loss. For Liza and Tate, keep in mind that you can't actually challenge them if you have only one pokémon in your party. You could challenge them with a level 2 magikarp buddy or something like that, but it would still eat a move for your main pokémon and affect the AI. With that in mind, I think using two copies of each pokémon would probably be the most true to the challenge.

[@amesstarline5482]

Finally, feeling vindicated about Whitney not being that difficult. She wasn't on the poll, but Elesa was more "the difficult one" for me.

[@coolgabe555]

Chikorita with Swords Dance destroying Whitney never gets old.

[@joshualee1168]

shiny caterpie at 20:24 👀

[@UnknownVir]

I didn't find out Whitney was a "hard" gym leader until I was an adult. Definitely had some lucky team comps early on

[@monopolyrubix1875]

"Swiping left on the Miltank to break through Attract" lol Love this series. 😊 EDIT: I vote for Norman. I would ban protect if you can't get it by then, i.e. legit rules. I like those. Two of the same pokemon on T&L would be super fun, though. EDIT2: I think moves like sand attack/fissure should be allowed if learned by level-up. The are luck-based, so if they aren't consistent enough, you won't necessarily win within 20 rounds.

[@natecgames4612]

Whitney has felt more like a wake-up call than anything that if you're going to play, you're going to need to strategize to win rather than this unbreakable wall that curved the difficulty, especially because Morty right after is pretty easy.

[@hoodedman6579]

6-year-old me was too stupid to know that so I grinded until my Quilava knew Flame Wheel at level 31... I would not advise using that strategy.

[@youtube-kit9450]

"that if you're going to play, you're going to need to strategize" the funny thing is that maybe aside from Clair, you never needed to do so again in that game aside from Red's hideously overlevelled team.

[@doyoulikemywatch]

Love these videos. One comment is that I don’t think self destruct/explosion should count as a win for the Pokémon as it faints as well.

[@brunoalejandroandrades354]

Not only that! But the game itself counts it as a loss. If you only have one pokemon left, then it counts the fight as a loss

[@ItsMeVolatility]

Seconding this comment

[@jaybuckner5205]

Came here to say the same

[@emilyrakov2340]

Agreed

[@momom5429]

Normally I'd agree but it was clear the Pokemon was able to win it regardless so that was more a flex in this situation than anything else. I'll take the variety and entertainment value in this case.

[@issy.with.s]

iirc you can't actually enter the tate and liza battle with only one mon, so i'd like to see tate and liza with two of the same mon! i'd have no preference on the level modifier, but i think 1.1x would be fair, since you could run two different movesets on the two mons and effectively have 8 moves to choose from. as for the current ruleset, i'm really enjoying it! i think it's a super smart way to go about it!

[@jschmidty2332]

I like the idea of the first round being what you could realistically achieve in the game at that point, and the second round being anything goes

[@questrequested9171]

the difference with making all mons male for Whitney, compared to using protect for Norman is that, you don't (usually) take note of the gender of your mons, while you absolutely do take note of what moves to use, like protect think of it this way. if you play HGSS (or GS) normally, you wouldn't think "oh Whitney is coming up, now i gotta change my mons gender" while in Hoenn, you absolutely would think of using protect vs Norman

[@brokendoll3368]

Wouldn't the legit moveset on Smeargle mean only three moves? Since it would learn its signature move Sketch only three times till level 21?

[@pokephenomenal]

Yes, that's true! I'll definitely keep that in mind from now on.

[@Zb5141]

Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice beam are all illegal, too. The move Tutor that teaches them doesn't appear until after the elite four is defeated.

[@Electrodancemonster]

​@@Zb5141 You get those three TM's from the Game Corner. You can technically get an unlimited amount of them from the moment you step in to Goldenrod City.

[@kimotokirby1601]

@@Zb5141 you can get them from the casino

[@254zero]

Big fan of the legit rules for round 1. Norman without protect is gonna be tough.

[@chefgrizz6284]

No critiques, no suggestions, I just love this series. ❤

[@spring_unsprung]

Banger video! Considering how boring rule explanations usually are in challenge videos, It's impressive how genuinely engaging that segment was. You did a really good job with the scripting + visuals for that part :) Also, I loved the way of diglett/dugtrio popping up out of their mounds when you brought them up. Cute little detail lol

[@pokephenomenal]

Getting that Diglett/Dugtrio section was a real chore, so I'm glad someone noticed!

[@hoodedman6579]

I vote for Tate and Liza with two of the same pokemon, as that sounds way more fun and interesting than a solo run fight. It also sounds a lot more beatable, as their team is shockingly strong, with STAB Psychic on every Pokemon and Calm Mind on two of them and Earthquake to hit both your Pokemon for full damage and Sunny Day + Solar Beam/Flamethrower... They are clearly a cut above most other Hoenn gym leaders, who are already generally stronger than most gen 1 and 2 gym leaders. I remember playing this hack of Emerald that randmoized your party before each fight and getting past them was a nightmare compared to most other gym leaders.

[@dozzy9984]

2 rounder seems pretty fun. Especially if you'd do Tate and Liza as a double vs. double (option 2, in which case you definietly should count them as having 2 mons, since they have twice as many mons, like Whitney). And the best part of Tate and Liza as option 2 and legit with optimal ruleset? You can't always do the same setup on both mons, since some teachable moves are 1 time only (if we think RSE rather than ORAS). Btw. do you think there should be punishment against Tate and Liza if one of the mons faints? Like maybe it loses 1/4 of its point.

[@pokephenomenal]

Taking points off for one of the pokemon fainting is an interesting idea, so I'll definitely put some thought into that!

[@ikesileth2270]

The legit rules is a great idea, but they make me wonder about egg moves. Whitney is right after the daycare, where you can theoretically get egg moves via breeding. Idk, maybe that’s too nitpicky and can fall into the second round

[@TaleOfTheToaster]

Top decking Lunar Dance… could not have been worded better

[@fortello7219]

For Tate & Liza: My take is; if you want a more fair and empirical dataset, going with 1 Pokemon is the best method. Preferably with a game state modified to trigger the battle with just one pokemon out, so they don't waste a turn attacking a generic lv1 Magikarp in the second slot. *However,* in the spirit of the challenge I would _absolutely_ do two of the same. It lets you *really* dig into their movepools!

[@emilyrakov2340]

This was the funnest entry yet! Love the restriction

[@DankaMemes]

Great video as always! The challenge was fun, even if it wasn't as hard as remembered. For the next video, Tate and Liza would be interesting with option 2, allowing for more double battle shenanigans, but that might make the fight too easy. 1v2 could be interesting too!

[@ReunaIsMe]

I much more prefer the idea of two identical pokemon each for Tate and Liza, as for the level cap I feel like it could go either way, it might be an idea to meet in the middle and say 1.2x? As for whether to do Tate and Liza or Norman first, I think both would make for incredibly interesting videos. Norman sounds like it would be easier to put together as a video concept, so I'd factor in whichever one you think you have time for in your schedule rn! These videos are awesome man, keep it up! Edit: I'd also like to throw in that the current 2 rounds of 20 attempts is the PERFECT way to settle the scoring system in my opinion. Definitely keep it as it is, and maximum rng moves like double team and sand attack I feel like should remain universally banned JUST because I feel like any pokemon that has uses those "theoretically" could win no matter what, and that kinda takes away from the fun if it turns into a technicality.

[@deltaquarayza]

Could you have gotten Ice Beam etc on Smeargle using wild Ditto? More difficult strategies are way more interesting, but Smeargle seemed pretty luck reliant

[@hazelsolace4243]

This is a little complicated but I think it’s the most fair way for calculating the amount of EVS you can get for early game trainers. Start with a freshly hatched Pokémon of the fastest EXP group and then train it on wild Pokémon (for any ev types) until it either hits max EVs or hits the level cap for the trainer. I know it’s not perfect as you’re not trying for specific EV types but that’s a lot of work and this would be a lot more fair than choosing at random. The fastest exp group means that you know every Pokémon could get that many evs or more and any EV type makes it so you don’t have to try this with every stat so it’ll likely only add like 30-45 minutes to the process on 4x speed

[@monster8me]

I really like the changes to the rules. I would recommend cutting the 20 chances down to 5

[@Viperio_19]

I'm commenting a bit late so someone may have already suggested this, but Smeargle actually could've learned all TM moves available via wild Ditto on Route 35 (I think). Just lead with a Pokemon with the desired moves, let Ditto copy that Pokemon, and voila: you can Sketch the TM move that you need! Either way, I love this series so I'm excited to see the next part!

[@Icehawk_9]

Tate & Liza with the 2x of the same 'mon would be sweet. One of the types of runs I like doing on my own is having a team of 2/3 of the same 'mon and doing a playthrough with them because I can experiment with different movesets and try to make the same thing viable in multiple ways. Freshens it up for me instead of always having the same copy/paste moveset on everything for a meta playthrough.

[@pokephenomenal]

Tbh I really want to do a nuzlocke with a team of identical pokemon someday. Seems like a lot of fun!

[@lukeladin]

I never understood the whole whitney slander. I beat her first try with my croconaw and felt genuinely bad for her. Found Bugsy to be more challenging

[@connormcgee4711]

Thank you for your work! Very entertaining!

[@Mushrooms683]

Personally, I think that if Whitney has a 96% rating, that's an issue with your RATING SYSTEM, not with Whitney. I'd propose this equitation: ((x^10)/1000000000000000000), where x is your previous value. This leaves Whitney with a score of about 66 and Clair with around a 59, (and doesn't change the scores for 100% trainers AT ALL,) which I think is more where we'd expect. This system leads to more dramatic changes, as you can see, but it's entirely possible to make it less extreme. ((x^4)/1000000) is another possibility, which would give Whitney about an 84 and Clair an 81. Edit: The best one to use depends on the minimum value that you think will be able to win. I think that 35% is a reasonable guess for that, which gives ((x^4)/1000000) a value just over 1, so that's the one I'd recommend.

[@owenaspinall2046]

I think 500 EVs with 100 in each of 5 stats (either all but the weaker offensive stat or all but spdef) works because you can buy the vitamins for EVs in the goldenrod department store.

[@Lupen69]

Never had any trouble with Whitney, female Bayleef, Quagsire, Flaaffy, so attract didn't work, rollout didn't do much, and I paralyzed her pokemon. No problem, and I was surprised to hear later that others struggled with her 😳

[@LucarioGamer]

Fantastic video, a lot of pokemon pulled out very unexpected wins. The ruleset is very well thought out, with the two round system offering a great way to keep it as challenging as possible while allowing for a more varied option for pokemon that couldn't cut it in round one.

[@frozenbonkchoy4986]

In my opinion, the EVs shouldn’t be limited, since min-maxing EVs with xp sharing on low level mons can most likely get you a full EV load out before gym 1 or 2 in most games, and certainly gym 3 in these

[@loredo7248]

The KZbin algorithm strikes again, super glad I came across this series and for the next episode I think The Tate & Liza would be more of an interesting fight and I say go with option 2 because there are some mons I can already say they will win but others like Wurmple line might have more of a chance with 2 on screen also with that you can build them 2 deferent ways.

[@fortello7219]

For the EVs: check a list of every trainer, and add up the EVs they give. Then check what wild Pokemon EV types are available, if any are missing you can't increase that stat much is at all. This works because the trainer might avoid all wild encounters to save time, but fight all the trainers for better experience

[@StarInTheForest]

I think that if you do Norman next, I think you should do 3 rounds. Round 1 would be the legit restricted set, which is everything available prior to Norman, and probably 180-200 EVs. This would give the full 1 point. Round 2 should be everything is allowed, all items, all TMs and maxed EVs but no Protect TM. This would give the halved 0.5 points. Round 3 is just the question of "Does this Pokemon need the Protect TM". The Protect TM is practically needed for the Slakings. This would give the quartered 0.25 points. Exceptions: if a Pokemon happens to learn Protect/Detect as part of their natural moveset, then it is legal for that Pokemon to use it for Round 1(and Round 2 if Round 1 movesets suck) to get the full/half point. You can do a set to see if it is possible for that Pokemon to do it without Protect but they should be allowed to use it for the full points since its's legit and natural. Caveats for this video, while the overall scoring system could obviously be improved, as you are still adjusting the parameters to be equalized for all trainers, there's also the fact that being a young or average player is going to be different than being someone who knows how to use all of the tools. Outside of over leveling the starter Pokemon, a lot of people are more likely have all attacking moves instead of having any status altering or non-damaging moves. While Whitney didn't seem hard for this challenge, there's also the fact that nobody would use Leer, Swords Dance or spend a lot of time gambling in order to make their time easier when facing any opponents.

[@momom5429]

While I would prefer to see the Tate and Liza one next personally, if you do go with Norman it's worth noting the Protect TM isn't available until after you beat him. So you could ban it for round 1 and allow it for round 2. I think Pokemon that learn moves like dig and protect naturally by that point should be allowed to use the moves as it is an advantage they would have. For the Tate and Liza fight, the second option sounds cooler. Lets you stick to the lower level cap and still engage with the fight as intended, plus it would make more for more interesting strategies I imagine.

[@pokephenomenal]

That seems like it would be best! The fact that you can't get the protect TM before Norman is helpful, since it takes some pressure off of having to decide on a ban

[@eddible544]

I think there might be a method to test how your EVs should match up with the BST to give weaker Pokémon a small boost without hurting the obviously stronger Pokémon too much. for example Garchomp with its massive Pseudo-legendary 600 BST vs Sunkern with its measly 180.

[@johnpaulcross424]

Loved this challenge! Wonder if you could do something similar and see if the Alola dex can handle Ultra Necrozma?

[@ccdm12]

I think you should use one pokemon, but increase the level cap to something like 1.15x or 1.2x. If you want to get around the 2 pokemon requirement to enter, I suggest using a level 100 cresselia with lunar dance. That way you will outspeed their pokemon and ko yourself, giving cresselia no impact on the battle

[@ricebox3048]

I think the ev part of the "legit" rules can be maxed since if you grind properly, you can get maxed evs before most gyms

[@sonofapollo2874]

20:22 So no one will talk about the shiny Caterpie? No? Ok

[@brutusthebear9050]

Hey, data scientist here. No matter what parameters you choose in your "study" youll have some weaknesses. Best thing you can do is choose a set and stick to it, so that comparisons are consistent.

[@pokephenomenal]

I think I've finally found a ruleset to stick with!

[@brutusthebear9050]

@@pokephenomenal Just be sure to acknowledge the limitations of your "study" in your conclusion.

[@TheEmoBimbo]

I do like the new "legit" system much more, since it is also much more realistic. One suggestion though. I think Smokescreen and Sand attack should be moved to the legit system, since they only affect the accuracy of a single Pokémon. Double Team, OHKO moves, and attract should stay on the "Max out" system, though. As for Vs Tate & Liza, I say that a 1.2× Multiplier is fair if using 2 Pokémon. Since you don't know whether the AI will always target 1 with attacks, target the other, or target both.

[@alicevioleta3184]

otachi and ootachi are great. the elemental punches on my furret carry me in this fight in crystal. long boy slander will not be tolerated.

[@pixxyofice]

Honestly i would've separated the half point wins from the legit wins? I feel like the data there would be neat. How many could be able to beat them on its own, and how much needed more help? And i'd use protect for normal on round 1 only for mons that learn it by level up and then round 2 everyone can learn it- so even more important to separate the ones who needed that round 2. Like most mons could probably do norman with protect- but how many can do it legit? Im interested in that! Also tate and liza should be 2 of the same mon so its kiiinda an intended experience.

[@ameliajohnson1726]

For OHKO moves i cant really think of any mons that will both struggle to clear a battle, and learn an OHKO move anyways. They're limited enough in spread that theyre probably safe to consider for the unlimited round for half points

[@logging_co]

I love the two rule sets

[@CKEternity]

I love the system you put in place for this video, as for reintroducing moves, I think allowing accuracy, evasion, and attraction moves is fine, but banning the tms, but OHKO moves are just too cheesy for me to want to have in this series

[@gonnagiveyouup8163]

I think using the Round 1 and Round 2 system makes sense to do for all the trainers going forward Also I think using 2 pokemon for T&L would make for a more interesting video

[@InciniumVGC]

Smokescreen is especially good against Whitney. Rollout is only 90% accurate and needs to hit multiple times to be strong.

[@vgpharaoh1344]

I liked how you did this quite a bit. I'd also appreciated that you showed the number of round 1 losses and round 2 losses at the end so that we could have an idea how it'd be if we cut out the round 1s. For tate and liza I like option 2 but w/ the 1.1x multiplier since you get 2 pokemon. for norman i'd probably ban protect round 1 but maybe debateably allow protect on round 2. if that seems too op though maybe only allow protect on the last few tries of round 2 as a last chance shot perhaps. though banning it isn't so bad either if you deem that better. Overall great matchup and went to show how good the mons were. I found it interesting you allowed self destruct on the last mon but it's really not too bad even if it's "technically a draw" as anyone can have a ratata or whatever in the back that's level 3 and given this is a 1 mon challenge it being only useable on the last mon makes it somewhat balanced. Overall this is looking pretty good!

[@variksigurdsson1447]

Flail Goldeen with speed EVs could probobly do it entering the fight at 1HP

[@THEDEY2]

I like this approach with two rounds. What i would do different is leave all the pokémon of round two, to whenever you finished with the round one. That way i think you would make it more exciting. Another think you should give a chance is struggle. Some pokémon could benefit if they start with lower pp, being able to buff themselves and have a reliable attack afterwards (i'm saying this thinking in things like... Metapod with only 2PPs of harden at the start of the battle).

[@RM-um9xx]

Interested to see how this goes since I'm firmly in team "Whitney isn't hard, you just fought her for the first time as a barely literate kid" Edit: haha called it. Let's do Norman next !!!

[@ashbandicoochie]

I love the round 1 and 2 rulesets, I think using accuracy and evasion moves might be too cheesy to add tho… I vote for Tate and Liza, and I think you should do 2 of the same pokemon. It would be fun to see how you can give them different movesets that synergize. Also I’m not too shocked by Whitney’s result, I feel like maybe I was the only person who never struggled with her. She’s great because she teaches the player to not just rely on damaging moves.

[@trewth2002]

Tate and Liza with 2 of the same Pokemon would be great! I’d treat it like 4 Pokemon so 1.3 level cap

[@arcadiawhimsies]

The hard part of Whitney is the lack of mons to get to do her fight, iirc the options are Heracross, Geodude and Machop

[@abrookinthesky7016]

The casual Shiny Caterpie

[@kangaskdan]

I love this series!

[@hazelsolace4243]

Also sorry for the second comment but I think the second fight being nothing held back and should allow for ANYTHING they can do including all previously banned strategies

[@Vekstar]

GSC Pokémon challenges enters chat.

[@mr.cauliflower3536]

selfdestruct does not count, if you're going solo, you should employ the ingame rules for victory (only win if you have pokemon remaining).

[@Echiewel]

In normal runs and Nuzlockes and such Onix is maybe THE counter to Miltank. Resists both Rollout and Stomp, physical defense up the wazoo, and shuts down Milk Drink with Screech. In gen 3 you even get Harden before this point, just in case you want even more defense. What happened that you could beat Whitney with almost every Pokémon except for it?

[@pokephenomenal]

To be honest with you, I overlooked screech when designing these movesets and that's almost certainly why I didn't get the win with Onix. What I assume happened is that, during my planning, I either missed that it learns screech or mixed it up with Scary face, and given I go through 250+ pokemon for this challenge, it just got lost in the weeds. Without screech Onix really struggles because it has such poor attack, but with it I assume it won't be an issue. I'll be sure to run the fight again before the next video and add an update there.

[@Echiewel]

@@pokephenomenal Ah, yes, that explains a lot. With that move missing it can tank for a while but not really finish the job, which is what counts here. I appreciate the massive amount of work these video's must take.

[@ashrau9144]

I’d like rate and Liza option 2 with 2 of the same Pokémon

[@maxcarrizales5575]

like the rule set in this vid!

[@Mushrooms683]

I've only fought Whitney once, and I beat her with only one super potion. Chikorita beats her WAY BETTER than the other two starters do.

[@crazycoolkids00]

refLECT

[@hoseasylvester2596]

Using potions is cheating in my book. You still would've lost without it

[@Mushrooms683]

@@hoseasylvester2596 Entirely fair. The person who wrote that comment is not the same as the one who is writing this reply, though we share a name, a face, and a reddit account. I've changed since then.

[@frozenbonkchoy4986]

I refuse to believe that Onix didn’t get the round 1 point

[@airshiphead]

If I had a nickel for every time I watched someone fight Whitney’s Clefairy and they knocked themselves out with Lunar Dance, I’d have 2 nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.

[@Digitelanimefan]

Holy cow, what happened to the sound? Your 's' sounds are SO SHARP I'm almost at my limit just a few minutes in! I've watched your videos before, and I don't remember it getting so bad then!

[@pokephenomenal]

Unfortunately, for the last few recording sessions my microphone has been picking my voice up with very "shrill" and "tinny" sounds, and although I attempted to make it sound better through editing, I'm still a little green at audio mixing and must have missed the mark here. Thankfully, I think I've figured out and fixed the main issue, which was my microphone interacting negatively with some software on my computer. I'm sorry for hurting your ears :( I hope I can get the audio back to normal next video and that you'll stick around to see more!

[@Digitelanimefan]

@@pokephenomenal good to hear you've gotten it sorted! Looking forward to more content! :)

[@coandy7005]

I feel like you should ban explosion and self destruct because if the last Pokemon uses explosion that team loses because they faint first Tate and Liza option 2 with the level modify at 2 Pokemon instead of 4 Pokemon that seems fair I think all of the banned moves would be fine to come back to a round 2

[@pokegarchomp]

Just max the evs. It doesnt make an enornous difference, and you could reasonably do it ingame

[@Kazzujin]

This would have been far more intresting if it was the OG gold where she was a real menance. In heart gold you have vastly more tools to work with in getting a win.

[@abrookinthesky7016]

Two of the same pokemon for tate and liza, 4/2 is 2 so do the 1.1 modifier

[@KidOmega-iv4tp]

Choosing Cyndaquil was the first mistake... #TeamChikorita

[@pokephenomenal]

#TeamChikorita 😤

[@500938ful]

Sad the shiny caterpie didnt win

[@airshiphead]

I think you need to stick to “round one”. I also am a bit unclear about the rules, which I am hoping someone can help with. In the 20 attempts, do they just need to win once? As that seems a bit unfair if 19/20 attempts were a loss and a lucky crit got a win. I think a consistent-ish win ratio of over 50% makes more sense, unless that’s already happening then fine.

[@gutscross9706]

off the bat, kinda wishing this was done with gen 2 Whitney, who seems more threatening at least to me, no lum berry sure, but also she's a legend from those games with more limited movepools, and worse held items (no round 2 choice bands/specs but i'd love to see how worth it the berzerk gene becomes under these circumstances), i don't remember people saying the same about hgss, you have so many more tools that it's just not as bad that being said, interested to see where this goes (aparantly it went very very well, but with the ammount of things allowed to do, she still ended up being formidable for about 5% which is unusual), if you get unlimited tries or even the 20 for round 1, well, so much of this fight is rng, from stomp to attract to rollout miss, seems a fight easy to win if you just keep hitting, but much harder to win consistantly, and very very easy to lose to bad luck. oh wow, i did NOT realize how much easier the game corner makes this, ice beam? swords dance? i mean blizzard thunder and fire blast are also kina crazy for that point in the game in gen 2, but the game corner grind was a lot worse, and no way you had money, but with 20 tries perhaps at least blast/blizz/thunder may have been a buff for this challange and those were game corner, but buyable was the punches headbutt and rock smash...... looking at what gen 4 gives that store........... wow........ just cause it's the big store didnt mean you had to give them everything there XD selfdestruct??? is not a win...... unless im mistaken you white out, don't get the badge, and have to do it again, if there's one big rule change i'd recommend, it's this, don't count selfdestruct wins, it effects few pokemon, feels wrong, and just dosn't match up with what the game considers a win i know lots of this sounds negative, but thats cause it made me think, and i think its an interesting idea overall and recognize the effort and thought that went into all this and it's so much easier to notice the things you may disagree or notice, than the vast majority of things that you agree with and so often don't end up worth mentioning as for tate and liza, i think the most interesting way to do it is 2v2, with 2 of the same mon, and franklly will be interesting (outside of hit them hard mons) to see how differing movesets effect things, and give a great new level of stratagy to the whole endevor. and levels at 1.1 (if im getting this right, treating your team size as double) because you actually are using double

[@pokephenomenal]

Thanks for all of your thoughts! I'll be banning selfdestruct from here on out. Thankfully, the main ruleset is at a pretty good place, so now we just have to iron out a few of those smaller issues to make the challenge the best it can be!

[@Tyrannigon64]

Wouldn't using Self Destruct/Explosion typically result in the user losing the battle if it was their only Pokemon? You only "won" the battles where you used Self Destruct because you had other Pokemon with you. Shouldn't using those moves not count?

[@Cyber_Cheese]

Smeargle would have only had 3 moves in round 1 right?

[@pokephenomenal]

Seems so! I misremembered and wrongly thought that smeargle always learned sketch again right after copying a move, rather than every ten levels, so I went in with too many moves. Luckily, I think Smeargle would be able to beat her pretty well even with three moves, especially if I used the strategy of having a ditto copy my pokemon and getting a stronger move like Ice Beam on it that way. But thanks for pointing this out!

[@ACap34]

I think Option 2 for Tate and Liza

[@alexrobinet7576]

Let the mon use the broken moves if they get them through leveling.

[@alexrobinet7576]

Dev intended strats should be fair.

[@3eve0n]

self-destruct shouldn't count as a win.

[@yoboyajax5983]

Forcing the mons to be male goes against the concept of whether a pokemon can beat whitney. All of the mons that failed this challenge deserve to switch their gender to truly see if they can solo her or not.

[@melismati]

I think legit rules are better for gym leaders, yeah.

[@UnknownVir]

Shiny caterpie!

[@thoopsy]

I definitely think it's funny that we have to discuss whether attract is legit to use when you already said you're doing everything possible to make sure she uses it against you. Kinda silly.

[@emred4653]

if norman wins protect edfinitely should be allowed

[@Joegomoe]

Calling it before I watch the video, Whitney ain't sh*

[@rtr360josh7]

Norman for sure

[@Mwarrior1991]

not at all suprised she did so poorly considering you award half points. almost any pokemon could sweep any fight with your no restrictions ruleset.

[@samwebb4362]

Feels like all the Pokémon should’ve been female to avoid the attract shenanigans

[@philkirshenbaum8867]

Let’s do Norman

[@cunnyravu]

Tate and Liza option 2

[@flufffffffffffffffffffffffffff]

pichu moment

[@lewisgregory1996]

Tate & Liza

[@lewisgregory1996]

Option 2

[@PLF__]

i think for norman the protect ban is fine with the exception of pokemon who learn it naturally… some pokemon do so i would allow them to use it