Can I Save Money by Folding in Poker?

[@CrushlivePoker]

Anyone find a fold here getting these pot odds if they were the Hero on the river?

[@scottbrown110]

Very player dependent, but in general I don't make big river folds getting 4:1 or better.

[@williamzagarella8066]

@@scottbrown110 in general, I dont put myself in a position where I make a raise on the turn which will give me 4:1 or better against an upfront jam. Theres no benefits. His bluffing frequency is basically 0. Your raise sizing should only be a size to where if you face a jam you will be getting no better than 3:1. Hero should never be raising to 600 on turn. 6X? Really? He needs to go to 400, leaving 950 back with a pot of 1700. Villain jams, pot would be 2650, 950 to call. He could even go up to 425$ which is 3.25X on the turn and still get slightly under 3:1 on river. The turn raise sizing is horrific.

[@scottbrown110]

​@@williamzagarella8066 I was answering the question as posed, but I agree 100% with everything you said. The river is a clear fold at 2.8:1. The villain just doesn't have enough AdQx or QT to call at that price. Ultimately, so many of these tricky river spots are the result of incorrect flop/turn sizing.

[@brianradant2885]

People can say they’d fold… Call me skeptical. Maybe I’m just not good enough. It’s weird the guy didn’t raise all in on the turn so you have to call with flush draws that would miss.

[@thaThRONe]

I think this is a fold. Even with the over bet on the turn. Once the flush comes what exactly are you putting your opponent on that would call such a significant raise on the turn then jam the river here? I'd imagine any holding like AK,KQ,K10, or K9 3bet shoves on the turn to deny equity on any straight, flush or straight flush draws. Plus the 100 dollar bet after check calling on the turn would seem really fishy to me. So I would be thinking hands like KJ or JJ are very possible. Either way the manner in which the hand played out on that river you have to believe your beat. The only thing you beat here is a missed straight draw. Any smaller K goes into check call mode on the diamond himself.

[@jakecooper5855]

It blows my mind how many people can't seem to comprehend live poker. People are convinced everyone plays some perfect gto strategy and can predict exactly what everyone else is doing. Time and again the reviewed hands have an outcome that wasn't really factored in because it didn't fit into some perfect 'range'. It's a cop out. People convince themselves that if they learn a strategy and play like robots that they are good players and will win. Most of these people are average at best with no feel for the game. Sit down at any blackjack table and 80% of the players don't follow basic strategy, and that's far easier to learn than any poker strategy. Even the guys that sit down and bet $500 a hand or more on blackjack don't have a strategy, they are just there to gamble and have fun. It's the same with the majority of live poker players. Bart knows all this well, he is one of the few that regularly acknowledges it. Unfortunately he is forced to humour a lot of the callers in their rigid thinking.

[@ifbfmto9338]

I agree with almost everything you’ve said This is also why, if you’re getting REALLY good odds and you have a decently strong hand, you just shouldn’t fold, and you should never assume crap like ‘oh he MUST have aces’ because people can and do bluff/semi bluff in spots that really shouldn’t make logical sense, but they do it anyways

[@jamesjones2675]

Villain played it beautifully. That turn bet of $100 was genius

[@Datsamoutful]

Most of the people who use the phrase “pot odds” can’t even calculate 2+2. They’ve just heard poker commentators use the phrase, and they now believe they should call anything with any two cards if the pot is big.

[@adamseidel9780]

I think I probably go to like $300 on the turn regardless of the bet up front or check to set up a roughly 2/3 SPR on the river. Makes it a little easier to get off of the villain shoves, or at least worth thinking about, but still easy to get the money in with hands that will call anyway.

[@intrepidus3378]

The problem with the small raise on the turn to leave room for a fold, is that frequently, the opponent will read that as "he's leaving room to fold" so, they give you a reason to fold. You may be inadvertently inducing a bluff. Also, they may not even know they're bluffing. They called the turn raise with JX, for example, and now, on the river they're not sure what to do so they instead of being faced with a decision, they just go full Leroy Jenkins and ship it. How does that factor into the analysis? I feel like Bart started to mention it but then shrugged it off like it wasn't a huge factor. I see lines like that from JX all the time in low stakes live poker.

[@stt5v2002]

I don’t think that you should “treat it as a check” when someone bets very small. They could have checked but they didn’t. Instead, they bet very small. Now I don’t know why they bet very small, but I do know that they did not want to check. “They did not want to check” is actually the one thing that you know with absolute certainty. Quite often, players who do this are simply thinking in terms of absolute value of money. They might feel that $100 is a good sized bet without thinking about the pot size.

[@Stockhandle123]

You think of is a check as in you don’t want to change your action at all because of this tiny bet. If you were going to bet go ahead and bet.

[@bensarhangian148]

When an OMC bets like that on the turn, in my experience, it is almost always nuts. It happens a lot with flopped flushes. It doesn’t happen with flopped bottom or middle set. They’re actually hoping it’s perceived as weakness and an aggressive / young player raises / jams over the top.

[@AtomicAndi]

I agree with Ben, always be suspicious when the Tourist/OMC donks. Unless you already have a read/intel that he is doing it weak. It can often mean that they DONT want it to go check check

[@Stockhandle123]

@@bensarhangian148 no mentioned anything about him being an omc. Just he was older gentleman who played a bit more straight forward that’s a far cry from an omc.

[@Oatriumph]

“They did not want to check” is actually the one thing that you know with absolute certainty. I love this.

[@GS-gq7pi]

Shove turn.. Its okay to fold out a flush or open-ender and many will shrug and call any way. Also if your opponent has a weak Jack, the opponent could easily level themselves into a hero call thinking you’re on the flush draw.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

Fold out an open-ender?! They’re drawing to a 9 only. QThh has 9% equity. Even a flush draw like A5dd only has 18% and the royal flush draw QTdd only has 25%. If you’re betting shoving to gets hands like that to fold that’s not the right way to look at the game. It’s like saying you should shove AA preflop to get T9s to fold. Just scared poker.

[@GS-gq7pi]

@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Those equities are based on Hero's hand. Open ender is only 9% because Hero has an A. 9 outs is normally 18%. You're shoving because your opponents will sometimes still call with draws because "no gamble no future" and look you up with a Jack assuming you're shoving with a flush or straight draw. They'll always call with a King. Live poker is played by gambling addicts not by bots

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

@@GS-gq7pi I know they’re based on hero’s hand. That’s why I said they’re drawing to a 9 only. If you’re shoving because you expect to get a lot of calls that’s fine. It’s not a disaster if they fold, but that’s not the reason we’re betting. I mean if you’re worried about QT, you should also be worried about KQ. That has 3 outs, plus another 6 to chop. But betting to try and get KQ to fold would be regarded as a disaster.

[@Jermo484]

Why? What possible point does that have? He still loses to JJ and KJ, he's always getting river value from something like KQ anyway and he's missing all of the value from most flush draws.

[@tubewayarmy2]

I'll get laughed at by some (all) maybe, but after 3 people already showing an interest in a 5xbb raise, this is just a call pre-flop. Hero has position so is in a position to control the pot, which doesn't mean just raise to scare everybody off. Then you can consider how big a raise to call, or raise if nobody raises, then if anybody calls or goes all-in you have the ability to consider folding. After a small raise, it's a re-raise, but if he calls that you are behind and should fold to an all-in on the river. Being able to make the play that gets the information, and folding is how you win. By river hero is pot committed and must call.

[@snex000]

Foul deck, call the floor.

[@mastercarve6211]

Pretty good line, I agree would’ve put him on the diamond draw with that crafty turn blocker-bet (seen that so many times where people bet small until others let them realize their equity for almost free (dumb!)). I would’ve considered a king-x in his range, but super-tough to put him on a boat, as even with something like a royal draw, most people aren’t going anywhere. “Just an old man”, lol. If you look back at his play, especially the turn ‘blocker bet’, he’s playing very crafty, careful!

[@kingpin6172]

This hand is brutal... hard NOT to call

[@milosmilovanovic6664]

the card deck was not correct. How could he show K of clubs if hero has already K of clubs?

[@handlebarname]

Technical question related to terminology. Stack off: what specifically does it mean? I get that it is committing all of ones chips. But does it specifically imply shoving all in, calling a shove or can it be both? The deeper I get in poker, the more I know. But often when watching such videos, I find poker slang to be a bit ambiguous, or don't know whether a definition is super specific, but I find that a confusion in terminology would have huge implications in understanding and communication.

[@ice-coldspear9193]

Its fine, if he has KcJc its a misdeal

[@Phobzi]

I think as played villain should 3b the turn? Anyone agree? What do you guys think?

[@thehuhu]

Villain had KJcc but hero has the Kc?

[@TheDjcarter1966]

Before reveal...what diamond combo is he calling the 4-bet pre flop with? AQ is about it A10 is meh, Q10?,109? I just don't think we should be giving credit for tons of made flushes and AdKs is all over his range and the perfect hand to make this move with....it's just too hard to find a fold for me, if he has AQ or A10 fine and if he has JJ same gg and move on. Didn't see KJc because caller misidentified cards.

[@mattt.4395]

If I have A10 and the board runs out 1010910K, do I hold the nuts? Is 1010 a better starting hand than 109? Seriously, though. Use "T." It's easier on the eyes.

[@checkmugged]

A bit of simplification but seems wrong on the turn you’re playing to not hit an awkward stack size when a diamond hits on the river (8 outs bc A of D you don’t care or roughly 20% of the time) instead of playing to maximize the other 80% of hands where he only calls the turn bet and folds river.

[@CrushlivePoker]

my case was that if you go so large you fold out the diamond draws

[@calvinjiang2624]

0.09% probability to flop a full house with a non-pair. Paying the villain off in this case is almost inevitable. Caller didn’t do anything wrong other than maybe reraising a bit too big on the turn. But it wouldn’t have mattered in this particular situation as it would be all in by river regardless. Don’t quit the game and wait for the opportunity to flop a boat yourself next time

[@drewcundari8773]

I mean percentage he has KJ definitely sky rockets when he double flats in this config though 😂

[@calvinjiang2624]

@@drewcundari8773 Absolutely, JJ too. Still, this is a cooler. Cannot be avoided and should not be avoided (if he doesn't even call the jam with trips and top kicker, then people can exploit him all day).

[@fanfan7848]

@@calvinjiang2624 wrong

[@willowandluka5302]

Yea, but a smaller raise on the turn could have allowed him to find a fold on the river

[@stt5v2002]

You can’t use these percentages in this fashion, because the preflop actions change that available combinations. For example, if the flip is 9-2-2 in a 3 bet pot, no one will have the 9-2 combos. But if it is KKJ in a single raise pot, there are many combos of KJ that might be held. The percentage chance that someone holds a boat goes way way up if someone is betting as if they have a boat.

[@williamr4053]

What about both showing down with the same hand with the villain having the AdKs?

[@BigBadVVolf22]

Villain wouldn’t flat the original raise w AK

[@kristermister4791]

I hate it when villains min lead out like in this hand, because as Bart mentioned, can calling (if u were planning to check) be construed as weakness? And conversely, if u were planning to bet 500, is a raise to 500 in this spot seen as extra strong.

[@johnnyordille6256]

If the villain is on a diamond ♦️ draw, then there are only 6 outs; the Ad & 4d will result in a full house for the hero.

[@martymerigold8296]

*7

[@kyle5375]

Gotta disagree with most comments here. I think turn is a misplay and clicking it back is better. Still get calls from kings and flush draws. And we get away from it on the jam on the river without a diamond in our hand. No king is open shoving the river.

[@tom-qj6uw]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 "Results oriented. Your play minimizes hero's loss. But it also minimizes his win those times he wins." Absolutely correct. Also it gives villain an incredible price to hit whatever they need to hit AND it alerts them to the fact that you have a really strong hand (would a J min-raise??)!

[@losyart]

im going for jam on turn with my AK tbh and hoping for best , but im betting bigger on flop to have more comfortable spr to do this on turn

[@Jermo484]

That's a very good way to miss a tremendously massive amount of value from flush draws, straight draws and one pair hands while still losing to JJ and KJ.

[@losyart]

@@Jermo484 And get value from all hands like Kx maybe even AJ q10d and so on

[@ifbfmto9338]

I’ve always believed it’s easiest/optimal (for a human) to be significantly over folding from either of the blinds You get into tremendous reverse implied odds situations when you’re playing out of position, also since most live tables are calling larger preflop action than would be ‘normal’ this allows you to care less and less about the blinds in the first place, and more and more about hand strength/playability and position (meaning, I’d honestly rather have something like 6 7 suited on the button, than pocket nines out of the small blind)

[@ifbfmto9338]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 So kind of, yes, but it’s even slightly different than that When there’s heavy/loose preflop action, it makes the blinds themselves not really consequential anymore, so in a really loose game, the game actually plays more and more like a a zero blinds game (and in such a game, you basically never want to be out of position with anything but top hands on strength/playability, because there’s less and less cost to just outright folding your hand so you can afford to wait and be patient, whereas with blinds, that does slowly bleed at your stack and create a pressure to be aggressive/not be ridiculously patient) Edit: and of course the blinds are still real and it never truly plays like zero big blinds for ‘optimal’ strategy, but it does start to noticeably veer in that direction the looser/heavier the table’s preflop action is, and that’s something I don’t think a lot of people are fully aware of

[@ifbfmto9338]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 Of course poker would suck without blinds I’m just saying, the looser and larger the preflop action, the less the existence of the blinds themselves even matters And that absolutely should affect how you play/your preflop strategy In fact, the ‘basic’ long-standing poker theory of, you should usually play the opposite way the rest of the table is, directly ties into this If the table is really loose you don’t really have to worry about the blinds anymore and you can focus on playing strong/playable hands in position, you can afford to be patient and just fold out any marginal hands especially out of position, because when you DO enter pots they will tend to be larger, so you will make up for ‘over folding’ from the blinds, essentially Whereas if the table is too tight, that’s REALLY bad especially because of rake, and your only hope in that situation is to try and aggressively go after blinds preflop when you can, because when you DO get into pots, they’ll tend to be smaller so your ability to make up for your own blind losses and rake losses will be severely diminished, if the table overall is playing too tight

[@michaelmulvania6060]

I'm just moving all in on the turn. I don't see the point in betting such a large portion of my stack just to fold the river if a diamond comes in.

[@Melvinvanharn]

Agreed. Pot is big enough to justify an all-in bet.

[@benzmane7564]

They jam? So two or more players jammed on the river?

[@hasl3r775]

The singular “they” is a third-person singular pronoun in English.

[@dsy6238]

This is just one of those hands where they have such low odds of having 1 or 2 combos, and then they have it lmao RIP I would have been all in

[@jvandyck87]

Can hero raise all in on the turn to get the diamond draw to fold, or is that playing too scared of the diamond draw? (I've never played live poker, only online for fake money, so go easy on me please!)

[@patrick_kyker]

When the V bets they have it.

[@Datsamoutful]

“Especially, this guy was an older guy. He’s really not thinking on any sort of level.”. Ah, the arrogance of youth. Seems to me this guy WAS thinking on some sort of level, that he had an ignorant young fool on the hook, and he was trying to figure out how to real the sucker in for his entire stack. Maybe the lesson here, is that young people are too foolish to comprehend that an “older guy” has been around the block a few thousand times more than you, and you should not discount his ability to “think on any sort of level”, just because he’s old.

[@mikevargas809]

you are killing it, love the content, but still need to tighten it up a bit. this could have been 8 mins. just my humble opinion. cheers

[@integritymatters5114]

Why not bet enough the diamond draw is no longer profitable?

[@kevinpilon11]

so the caller has the king of clubs and the villain also has the king of clubs. Crazy hand indeed

[@thaThRONe]

This deep just calling for pot control seems like the best play. That 100 dollar bet just seems too weird in that spot. Why would a flush draw bet so little here samething with any KX holding. Honestly can't imagine any hand that would check call that flop then lead out betting 1/10 the pot. It ended up being the nuts but such a strange play there would have had my antenna up.

[@noex100]

This is not deep at all. Hero starts hand with 170 bb's and the SPR on the flop is less than 3. Why pot control with one of the absolute strongest hands you have? This is a spot where you go for heavy value. There are 6 combos of KJ, and 8 combos of KQ. You have to be willing to lose 6 times so you can win 8 times. Deal with variance in the short-term, profit in the long run.

[@thaThRONe]

@@noex100 If the villain just checks here yes I agree. I'm betting and I'm betting pretty sizable to charge any draws because that's the likely hand that I'm putting the villain on. However that bet is a "tell" for me and I would see thay as a sign of extreme strength and I would just call and evaluated the river.

[@noex100]

@@thaThRONe How is that always strength? It'd often a blocker bet by a draw that's trying to confuse you and get a cheap river. Happens all the time in live poker.

[@thaThRONe]

@@noex100 Sure but is he block betting with only about 1/10 the pot here? I would hope a thinking player would know that is not going to stop a strong hand from raising. Both Bart and the caller said they treat such a small bet as simply a check. That's what's so weird about the bet. Not the fact that a player would block bet in this spot it's the amount. It accomplishes nothing. It's too small to be either a blocker bet and way too small to be a protection bet.

[@noex100]

@@thaThRONe A bet of 11% pot is too small to be a block bet? Come on now, really? You expect a block bet to be like, 1/4th pot? That's just a BET, not a block bet.

[@thaThRONe]

Why would the villain bet 100 on the turn with the boat? The hero is leading out. He's either has a worse K or on a flush draw. Let the hero value own himself.

[@88mphDrBrown]

I do this play all the time. It's sort of a no downside play. You don't want it to check back so it guarantees the pot gets bigger and very often it gets interpreted as weakness, which can induce a bluff. Also if the guy has "thick value" like a king the small bet can get him to raise larger than he would've bet normally. Villain got an extra 200 in the pot, which can really help the guy feeling potstuck by odds.

[@adamseidel9780]

@@88mphDrBrown I think it makes sense MAYBE if the SPR is a lot larger and you need the pot to get big to get it all in, but in this case hero is either going to A> give up anyway or B> double barrel or value own himself for at least $300-500, which makes the SPR small enough it’s easy to get the money in anyway. So I don’t buy it in this case, I buy it if you have like a 5-1 SPR or something in a single or 3 bet pot and you need to start juicing things up any way you can OOP. Not really sure I like it on a blank either, like it more if like a back door draw appears and you can make it look spazzy.

[@88mphDrBrown]

@@adamseidel9780 it already looks spazzy and goofy to donk so small after the previous action. The main point is that you're at least getting something in the pot so the guy doesn't check behind, anyway you slice it that helps get more value on the river. You don't want to x/r, that looks absolutely terrifying and in this hand he's blocking all of the best value that would call. The natural play is to play in flow and check call. This is a better option because it juices the pot regardless and it very often is read as weak, which can induce a bluff and it's small enough to get called by all of the marginal hands that would check back. There's no downside, it has a bunch of benefits over x/c, x/r, and a large donk. That's the main point, that it has a bunch of benefits with no big downside.

[@danweaver5787]

In this case it was brilliant. Villain got hero to think he’s on a diamond draw by betting small. Villain played this pretty well imo. Most coolers nobody makes the wrong play. Just like this hand. Possibly bet smaller on turn to fold River on a diamond is all he could’ve done differently

[@adamseidel9780]

@@88mphDrBrown there’s definitely a downside, namely that it slows down hero or hero decides to just call instead of betting a lot more. Again, I’m not saying it’s necessarily always bad, but there is definitely downside

[@wesleybrown9597]

God button straddles suck

[@bryanjohnson8162]

Could you if you're putting him on a blocker bet on the turn possibly put him all in like if you really put him on a diamond draw shove yourself there and he folds I'd imagine right and only cuz the way he plays that like screams diamond draw instead of anything else

[@jimpalmer4392]

why not just jam turn.

[@dsy6238]

Ace of diamonds and flush draw is still out there, giving him like 10 more "outs" and making it much less profitable to jam

[@jimpalmer4392]

@@dsy6238 yea,but he called anyways.

[@charlesnewborn3760]

i have trouble believing this hand went exactly as caller stated. donk betting TURN for 1/10, calling raise, then Donk jamming river, ISN'T A THING. MAYBE DONK BETTING FLOP with the nuts, but this never happens on the turn. besides if your game knowledge is SO FAR ADVANCED that you somehow get Hero to raise you on the turn with a "teaser" bet, you should know hes going to put the rest in with the top of his range K+ holdings. Possibly JJ. Hero clearly commits himself with that sizing, why not rip the rest in??? wait till a potentially action killing card comes on river??? like i said something doesnt add up and I think this caller is making up stories.

[@ghostyff9183]

You don't play live poker do you lol