Black or Smokeless in My Vintage Rifle

Join us as we discuss the pros and cons of shooting black powder or smokeless powder rounds in you vintage cartridge rifle.
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[@hercules1073]

I usually skip over these type videos because I'm so familiar with the properties etc. of black and smokeless powders due to decades of familiarity of handloading, reloading, muzzleloading etc. but I decided to watch this one and I really enjoyed the way you presented certain facts. I think I'll give more credence to publishers of these type videos and watch them more often. Really enjoying all of your videos so keep them coming.

[@mathdom1146]

I used to be black powder, heared about smokels but nothing to know it which one is good for big game. Is it suitable for 12 ga and muzzle lodar?

[@45-70Guy]

Great video, any of us who like to use our vintage rifles should take care to be careful no matter what we use. These are a part of history that can never be replaced but can definitely be enjoyed. Thanks again

[@CameronMcCreary]

When I was younger I used smokeless powder in a Smith & Wesson .32 rimfire Canuck CIL and reloaded rimfire copper cases. I also had a Colt reproduction 1851 Navy revolver in .36 caliber and I never fired black in the revolver because the range I was a member of didn't allow Black powder on their range. What I did was machine off the rims to .38 Short Colt cases and inserted them without primers in the cylinder. I then used the cases as standoffs and inserted the appropriate load just for a minimum load and seated the bullets to the top of the cases with thin wads and primed the nipples. I then fired the revolver and. Had no problems. Accuracy was very good in both the S&W Model 1 1/2 .32 rimfire and the Colt Navy. Thank you Mark for explaining the use of smokeless powders in older firearms.

[@smithwesson7765]

I stick with FFFg in all my vintage rifles. no chance of an overcharge and I only use cast lead bullets. Your videos are really very informative and enjoyable, thanks !

[@Siskiyous6]

I find older manuals often are more informative on this topic than the modern publications.

[@Master...deBater]

Hi Mark. I inherited my grandfathers 1898 built 10ga Ithaca twist steel double barrel hammer shotgun. After about 1940 he used smokeless shells exclusively since BP shells were nigh impossible to find. He only used low brass lightly loaded shells...but shot hundreds of ducks, geese and pheasants with that old girl. I only shoot BP shells through it today, but she's still as tight as the day it was made. I did want to mention something about smokeless and pressure. It's been my experience that with BP pistol cartridges at least...BP outperforms virtually all smokeless powders in velocity. Take 45 colt for example. I don't know of a single smokeless powder that can match a full case of Swiss BP without exceeding 14K PSI! 5744 comes the closest with a velocity just over a 1,000 FPS with a 255gr bullet. Which is about 50FPS slower than the same bullet pushed by Swiss BP. I've been looking for a smokeless load capable of eclipsing BP, while staying within pressure limits...but as yet haven't found one.

[@oldiron3735]

Great video as usual Mark! I shoot smokless in my old iron but I keep the jacketed bullets out of them. My older rifles get smokeless and lead.

[@furmanmackey5479]

And then we have the black powder "substitutes" rabbit hole to travel down and explore! Hell, I'm still not sure what the difference is between weight vs volume. And yes, it is true I made my sixth-grade math teacher cry because I could not wrap my head around what was then called "new math" Over five decades later I'm still ashamed of myself for that one. Excellent video as usual! Keep 'em comin'!!!

[@davidgardner863]

I use Pyrodex RS in my vintage rifles. It loads the same way as black powder with a full case, producing a similar pressure for equal volume. It’s less volatile than BP and has a higher flash point. Also you can use the same powder measures as smokeless according to Hodgdon, which is not safe with black powder which requires an aluminum hopper.

[@normanmcneal3605]

Use magnum primers for 5744, I’ve found. You will not have unburned remnants.

[@KenBlackRifleAmerica]

Great info Mark. Personally, I side with caution. My old vintage rifle was made for black powder and that's all I use on her and always measure precisely! Take care and thanks again!

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

Thanks for talking about this. I have been told my whole life to never load smokeless. I always figured it's ok as long as you know what you are doing. Thanks for the education. Fascinating to hear that its possible to load smokeless to the Velocity of black powder and with the right powder have lower pressure.

[@oregonoutback7779]

Another excellent class, Professor. A week or two back, I heard Goex is back up & running again, under new ownership. This is good news. They hope to have product to all their dealers by the end of this year.

[@billclifton8400]

They delivered close to a ton of Goex about three weeks ago at the NMLRA shoot. They said they hope to have all Goex distributors orders filled by the end of the year.

[@danielcurtis1434]

I don’t understand using black unless you use a flintlock. Goes is 15-20% less powerful than triple 7 or other high end substitutes. The extra performance is really ideal. I have an 1858 Remington revolver with a 5.5” barrel. I wish I had gotten the 8” for velocity/performance. But triple 7 let’s the barrel get more velocity in shorter barrels.

[@oregonoutback7779]

@@danielcurtis1434 I understand where you are coming from. For some of us, it is not about velocity. The Cowboy Action shooters and reenactors like the flames and smoke. Those interested in the history of firearms like being able to experience doing things like they were done 150 years ago. I believe it may simply be a case of cultura diferente.

[@billclifton8400]

@@danielcurtis1434 Then I guess you just don't understand.

[@danielcurtis1434]

@@oregonoutback7779 yes but there’s another big issue about black powder, storage and availability. I can’t buy black powder anywhere remotely near where I live (I think Texas had some). However I can buy substitutes at most big gun stores of value. This is the reality most people live under. So you have to buy online and pay $20 to ship. Substitutes are treated the same as smokeless so it’s no stress. Also I want realism as I have as you do. However given goex is sub par, triple 7 just gets you the same as the real black powder of 1880. So I short triple 7 is essentially the closest thing to true black powder that you can buy in a store. It’s s gray option for the common/poor man. I’m insanely low income. I can’t afford to buy black powder it’s just not realistic. Plus in CA you can only possess one pound legally (not a problem now moved to NV).

[@sohcahtoa5786]

As always great information. In addition very timely as I just completed getting an 1888 manufactured Colt Lightning Magazine rifle in 44-40 cleaned and mechanically ready for shooting. Thank you so much for posting your content.

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome! Have a great time shooting that old Lightning. One of my all-time favorite rifles to shoot.

[@jacobmarley4907]

Great video. I've had my personal black powder firearm era and I now use only smokeless powder in my replica guns and original guns however I load only to safe black powder pressures.

[@tankfixer59]

I have an old copy of Cartridge's of the World that lists a number of Hogdon 4198 loads for 45-70, 577/450 amongst other old black powder rounds.

[@danielcurtis1434]

Black powder clean up is really easy you just have to do it after you shoot within 12-24 hours. You really just need water and some oil lubricant. I’ve found the best for my muzzleloading single shot and revolvers is to just use the hose. I just remove the cylinder from my revolver or breach plug from my single shot pistol. Then I hose the barrel by putting the hose right up to it and let the water flow through the be barrels abd get the other parts of the revolvers. Then I either let them air dry or towel them. After that I spray em with ballistol everywhere abd out em away. No cleaning jag or anything necessary. My guns are fine… So yes I would say black powder is much easier than messing with solvents!!!

[@brandontinlin9435]

Superbe presentation, Sunday Funday!

[@droberts73543]

I would love to come out and visit your ranch, looks like some beautiful country

[@davidgardner863]

If you use smokeless powder, it’s a good idea to weigh the finished rounds to detect an accidental overload. If one is considerably heavier than the rest, pull the bullet out and reweigh the powder.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Excellent advise!

[@jeffryrichardson9105]

Great information!👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸

[@thecinnabar8442]

Glad you liked it!

[@arthurekman8281]

Along that line, Elmer Kieth talked about the earley smokeless loads for the 45 Colt as made by Remungton I believe. It would be nice if you could do an episode on those. Might even find an example. He said they were under powered and not too accurate. O' yea I don't call him Saint Elmer for nothing.

[@josephadams7379]

I run smokeless in my M1873 Trapdoor from 1881 with no issues. There is a good video of a gent running pistol powders for his vintage Trapdoor, with 405 gr lead bullets, getting sub to just over 800fps. 10 - 11gr of Unique seems to work just fine with pressures and accuracy with no keyholing. Very good video sir!

[@johnmollet2637]

Excellent topic for a video Mark, thanks for putting it together for us. Have a great week.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks John! Glad you liked it.

[@billfisher6708]

Excellent video and explanation!

[@453421abcdefg12345]

Another well researched and presented video! I think there are a lot of myths repeated on this subject, but maybe if people ae not very smart that can be a good thing, there is more question on the projectile material and primer than powder type for the sensible and experience reloader, and the excellent articles in the Double Gun Journal, (now sadly gone), are a very good solid hands on proof that the powder is not a problem providing pressures are observed. Many thanks for posting this one! Chris B.

[@mikeallen2523]

great vid. & lesson as all ways

[@chrischiampo7647]

Thanks Mark 😀

[@SixRoundsStudio]

Well done!

[@Leverguns50]

I enjoyed the video, I can’t really say I learned anything, because I’ve been studying this topic for years, and I can say that what you said is absolutely 100% true, and I also stand behind your statements, black powder is an explosive and smokeless powder is a propeller, however peak pressures are as you stated, I get tired of telling people the same thing, so I’m going to send them to your video

[@TheFizzerKing]

Great video THANK YOU

[@glen.d6435]

Great vid mate. Thank you

[@danielcurtis1434]

That demonstration was definitely misleading. Smokeless burns just as fast with compression or in a small confined space. However you used the misleading demonstration to educate. I find that a very interesting??? Glad to be a subscriber!!!!

[@richardboquist1531]

Great video. Very informative. Thank you.

[@timroot4207]

Thank you !

[@Leverguns50]

A lot of times with the same exact pressure with smokeless powder you can get one or even 200 FPS faster And sometimes more if you could use even a slower burden powder

[@thecinnabar8442]

That's a great point! I should have mentioned that when I talked about shooting the same velocity with less pressure than black powder.

[@asherdog9248]

I shoot smokeless in my repeaters that generally are more difficult to clean. My single shots that are easier to clean only see black.

[@michaelhayes7471]

I shoot a lot of the reproduction revolvers I have two conversion cylinder I 45 colt I have a modern 1873 Winchester I only buy cowboy load don't want get them mixed up

[@thecinnabar8442]

Great policy!

[@clarencesmith2305]

There is a third powder. There is a "smokeless" black powder called Pyrodex.

[@gijoe508]

And corrodes barrels like none other

[@clarencesmith2305]

@@gijoe508 On my .58 muzzle loader it gummed up my barrel.

[@rationalmind6362]

Im having trouble figuring out what smokeless powder to run in my 30" 1873 Uberti 45 colt lever action to get the best performance with 250 grain rnfp cast lead projectiles. From what i understand the Uberti is safe to run tier 2 loads up to 23-24k psi. With the 30" barrel i believe i need a slower powder. Ive got some titegroup im going to try but at 6.2 grains its only showing 881 fps, im sure thats for pistol but id like to get at least 1k fps to match the blackpowder loads.

[@bumpercoach]

is there a RULE OF THUMB for comparative volume equivalents? if you could recommend a best practices LABEL to help avoid confusion what would you include/emphasize?

[@MikeM10293]

Great information. I’m currently working on an old double barrel and debating if I should use smokeless or BP!

[@thecinnabar8442]

The "Finding Out For Myself" articles by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal may be helpful to you. They ran from 1999 to 2002

[@jahns1586]

One thing I would like to ask. My dad just bought a Winchester 73, with an 1874 build date which means it is an iron frame, from what I’m understanding. Once the gun is checked out and made sure it’s safe to fire anything, is it safe to shoot the iron frame ‘73s with smokeless cowboy action loads?

[@SteveSiwak-sv8sd]

What's your thought about the powder called trail Boss I personally had have had good success

[@Sport--willow]

I tried different smokeless powder loads in my uberti 1873 Carbine and uberti 5½" cattleman, both slug at 0.4275 on the bores. Smokeless powder was unable to give any decent velocities without giving significant signs of over pressure. I tried goex 3f and 2f with light to heavy compression, but found extreme fouling quickly. So what was I to do?! I found mixture ratios of the powder mixes from the 1870s and went to work and developed powder that works better than expected with the 217gr cast bullets designed by john kort. 6oz mixing ratios have loss calculated in, 77%k 9%s 13%c plus an extra 2%k for loss. The fouling feels and looks as though you use a match to smoke a mould for casting, but does turn white when it absorbs humidity.

[@Sport--willow]

Ball mill ingredients separately first before combining to mill. Wet with hot water and mix to a play dough consistency, Granulate and spread out to dry thoroughly. Ball mill these granules completely, then prepare for pressing using saturated distilled water and press. Enjoy! Safe shooting

[@user-gj9xl7rt2z]

Maybe a dump question you might have covered. I was thinking or read somewhere that only rim fire cartridges were black powder and center fire were smokeless powder. Not sure if that is correct or not

[@thecinnabar8442]

No, that's absolutely not true. Smokeless powder ammo was not commonly manufactured until about 1895 in the US. After 1895, smokeless powder ammo became the predominant type, but black powder centerfire ammo has always been available and continues to be available today.

[@johnkovalchick6218]

If you shoot black powder do i have to take the gun apart and clean after shooting

[@mathdom1146]

Which one is power full

[@johnrichner826]

So if i shoot the correct velocity through my chronograph, will that translate to correct pressure?

[@thecinnabar8442]

It would depend upon the burn rate of the powder you're using. Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

[@davidgardner863]

Why not mention Pyrodex? It loads the same way as black powder but has some advantages such as safer and is more available.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Haha! I explained that I was trying to limit the scope of this video so that it wouldn't turn into hours or even days of discussion and that there would surely be those who would ask why we didn't discuss this or that topic as well. I have nothing against Pyrodex, but that's a discussion for another day. Thanks for watching, David.

[@tacticalrabbit308]

Can you use black powder in modern bottle neck rifles

[@gijoe508]

If it’s a caliber that can use lead bullets and doesn’t have rifling that only works with jacketed rounds. I mean you CAN put black in any round but it will foul a 30-30 or 30-06 faster than a 45-70 since 45-70 started as a black powder round with lead bullets.

[@kellywalker8407]

Blackpowder if you're single, smokeless if you're married. Women don't like the sulphur smell when you clean blackpowder muzzle loaders in the bathtub

[@thecinnabar8442]

Good advice!! Always want to keep the better half happy. Especially when it comes time to buy your next gun.😃

[@cbroz7492]

Why not??? They were made for kack.powder...we have superior cleaning solutions today,..like Ballistol

[@thecinnabar8442]

???? At no point did I say not to shoot black powder ammo. In fact, I encouraged it. The point of this episode was to provide better information to those who would rather shoot smokeless powder loads in black powder era rifles.